'Neo-pagans' and the gods

[David19]

This is something i've wondered, on a lot of 'neo-pagan' sites, most will always say that they don't 'worship' 'their' deities, but 'work' with them or 'hire' them or whatever, but on some sites, like the Aztec gateway (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/tribute.html) (an Aztec reconstructionist site), and others (such as Sumerian and Babylonian reconstructionism, the gods are there to be worshipped, the gods don't 'need' humans, the gods are greater, more powerful, etc than humans, but it seems a lot of 'neo-pagans' don't want to admit that the gods are powerful.

Some quotes from the site are here:


These are the people who don't care if they're breaking a cultural taboo in their ritual to a certain deity, because they don't want to admit that the gods could be dissatisfied with anything they do. These are the people who try to please gods with offerings that are completely foriegn and meaningless to them when offerings that held traditional value would be just as easy, because to admit that certain deities had different preferences would mean that they'd have to spend more time getting to know the gods they call upon. These are the people who read a one-paragraph list of deity traits and think that qualifies them to be a priest or priestess for that deity. These are the people who disregard any traditional beliefs that make them feel uncomfortable with a simple, "We know better now." These are the people who won't take even a slightly more difficult road, so seek only easy outs and what seems glamorous or cool to them at the time. If you're not one of those kinds of people, I would welcome working with you.


What follows from these various points is that the Aztec gods expect treatment of a highly respectful degree. Being “used” for a spell, or “working with” a person would likely be seen as disrespect

Also on another occult/'pagan' forum, one post made me laugh about the common way of 'neo-pagan' worship - invoke the god, ask for something, banish with a kick up the ass, with 'hearty' merry meet, blessed be, hail, etc.

Do you think this is true of some 'pagans', have you experienced this, do you think that the gods are there to be worshipped, also do you think the gods would find it disrespectful or be angered by being treated like that.

A lot of people say that Christian's/Jew's/Muslim's, etc 'grovel' before Yahweh, but i haven't really seen that (although i really haven't been to a church/synagogue/mosque so i'm not an expert), but i would have thought the gods would find being worshipped better than getting 'banished with a kick up the ass'.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[Sage Rainsong]

I have witness the attitude where the gods were treated like genies and swiftly kicked out after they are used and it does bother me but hey its just IMHO. As far as worshiping them I think that many pagans actually do worship their gods but they just hate the word. Worship has come to mean utter slavish devotion. But IMHO if you give them offerings and speak praises to them then you are in fact worshiping them. It just that a lot of pagans don't like the word because they have been burned by Christianity.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I would agree and disagree. :lol: I have read a lot of rituals that worship a deity or particular aspect, and that's really all they are doing. I think the problem is similar to how some people pray. You know: "God, please help the [insert sport's team here] win on Monday, and you know I would like to win the lottery." They aren't really glorifying the deity in any way by doing that, and I think that this is common throughout all religions.

I think that the problem is that some Neo-pagans don't separate their ritual workings and magical workings, or have the misconception that all magical workings must be done with the invocation of a deity. An invocation is by it's definition asking a deity for assistance. I think I'm just babbling now...

So, anyway. Not all Neo-pagans are reconstructionists or think that the gods will be offended by whatever they offer them. Is this hubris? Maybe, but who knows? Maybe the gods would like Ho-hos if they were around a couple thousand years ago. I generally try to stay out of other people's business regarding how they honor the Divine. If they get smited, well, so be it, then they'll learn. :lol:

[kheretsenu]

Well, I see nothing wrong with giving non-traditional offerings if that's what the Gods want. Just because they didn't have Coke in Ancient Egypt doesn't mean that Nebt-Het doesn't find it fabulous.

On the other hand - I have no problem bowing down before my Gods, or showing Them the same respect that Christians show to their deity. Something that's very common, not just among neo-Pagans, but in general, is a hatred for authority. Now, I'm a spikey-haired, bass-playing cursing punk who really, really hates it when people who don't deserve authority try to exert it over me or anyone else.

But the Gods deserve their authority. They made this world and everything in it, at least in my view, and occasionally getting on my knees in front of the shrine isn't gonna kill me. Of course it all goes back to whether or not you believe Gods are Gods, or just archetypes, or whatever.

[semi]

Well, I don't worship anything. I do "work with" some entities. They don't seem to mind me phrasing it that way. And if They don't mind, all is well.

[Duwayitheru]

Maybe the gods would like Ho-hos if they were around a couple thousand years ago.

Here's a recon who knows about Heru-sa-Aset's grand love for twinkies! :hehehehe:

Making untraditional offerings is something I see no problem with, and worshiping/honoring a deity outside of Their cultural tradition is okay too.. Well, it wasn't for me, but I think those things are between a deity and person.

What does bother me is when someone says they summoned up X deity because they wanted something, but doesn't know a damn thing about said deity. I summoned up Venus for love, and then sent her away! Sort of stuff. Though even then, there are some who see nothing wrong with this as they only view deities as symbols for a type of energy - not any sort of actual being... So, I guess it all does come down to personal opinion.. but it's still something I disagree with! :p

There are pagans out there who refuse to use the word worship, because it means something bad to them, or degrading. I dunno, I guess that's up to them. I have no problems saying I worship my Deities, I even bow down before them. Those who use terms like honor or respect, well, no problem with that here. :)

[Vincent Verthaine]

According to Margret Adler's research in "Drawing Down the Moon",the first ones to use the term "Neo-Paganism" (at least in America) were Kerry Thornley and Greg Hill (page 275-276 I believe.My house is being painted and my books are in boxes.The passage is in the "Discordian section) to differentiate the new forms of 'earth based' belief structures from the more traditional forms.

Let me let you in on a little inside info.

In 1958(or 59)
Greg Hill had got himself kicked out of a couple of Wiccan covens in Cali for "not being serious enough",and him and Thornley came up with Discordianism in response to the rigid rules of Wicca.

Hill felt that too many covens were too 'cliqueish' and felt that paganism belongs to the practicioner,not the high priests.

It didn't matter what rituals you used,it's all nonsense anyway,it's whats inside that counts.

Discordianism was create as a joke in response to the seriousness of wicca.
And religion in general.
They didn't realize that the joke would take a life of it's own,or last for 50 years.

Greg Hill is quoted as saying "We thought we were messing around with Eris.Little did we know that it was Eris messing around with us".
Eris wasn't meant to be worshipped(she still isn't),She was meant to be experienced and enjoyed.

That was what they meant by neo-paganism.

The First discordian cabal (the Joshua Norton Cabal,POEE) were the first ones to dare to point that out to the high and mighty Wiccan High priests.After they printed the First Edition of the The Pricipia Discordia,(Or How the West was Lost,only 5 copies were made.),a number of other cabals were formed,first in Cali,then in New Orleans.
(Where Hill and Thornley printed the Fourth Edition,the One we all love,The Principia Discordia or How I Met Goddess and What I Did To Her After I Met Her).

Just thought you'd guys might like some inside info on the the term "neo-pagan".
(I got all this from a friend and mentor of mine who was there from the beginning.He was part of the original Cabal.Eris rest his soul.)


Do you believe that.

[Mouse]

Also on another occult/'pagan' forum, one post made me laugh about the common way of 'neo-pagan' worship - invoke the god, ask for something, banish with a kick up the ass, with 'hearty' merry meet, blessed be, hail, etc.

Do you think this is true of some 'pagans', have you experienced this, do you think that the gods are there to be worshipped, also do you think the gods would find it disrespectful or be angered by being treated like that.

A lot of people say that Christian's/Jew's/Muslim's, etc 'grovel' before Yahweh, but i haven't really seen that (although i really haven't been to a church/synagogue/mosque so i'm not an expert), but i would have thought the gods would find being worshipped better than getting 'banished with a kick up the ass'.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

I've seen this too and it disgusts me! I think it's one of the reasons I moved away from polytheism, because I didn't like the idea talking only to a God when I wanted something. I figure if I wouldnt do it to people in everyday life I shouldn't do it to the Gods, or any other being/spirit. But most if not all of the books I'd read at that time either stated that we all are deities (Which I'll never believe) or had the Gods decribed as mercenaries.

The Gods do become angered at some of the things we do, although quite often not the kind of things I would expect, and I've seen/felt the Gods anger directed at another individual for only praying/doing ritual to ask for something, but they didn't get angered enough to abandon that person, like a lot of texts would have me believe that they would have. I can't imagine the Gods being impressed by the way they are treated/hired out, but then obviously it works for some people or they wouldnt do it.

I'm fine with worshiping, and with grovling (although i wouldnt put it that way) but I made that choice. I bundled up my life, handed it over and said "I'm working for you now". I don't expect other people to do that. A life of service isn't at the top of everyones wish list. It'd be nice to see some people showing a little more respect though, it's lucky the Gods have a strong sence of humour!

Good topic. I'm glad you bought it up!

[David19]

Well, I see nothing wrong with giving non-traditional offerings if that's what the Gods want. Just because they didn't have Coke in Ancient Egypt doesn't mean that Nebt-Het doesn't find it fabulous.

Although saying that, i actually heard that they've found a 'recipie' from ancient Egypt (from Pharoh(sp) Rames, i think) that is pretty much the same ingredients as Coke so maybe the Kemetic gods did have coke then too, Lol!.

[Shanti]

Isnt it between each individual and their gods?

Everyones beliefs are their own truths. Just because some believe gods are more powerful and should be worshipped, doesnt mean all believe the same way.

I think the gods understand individuality more than many people do.
If the gods dont have a prob with it, why should any person?
If the gods are not questioning the new mind set in people, why should people do that to each other?

To me gods are just spirits, just non-physical existances like all the many differant exsistances. I put none on a pedistal.
None have ever questioned nor bothered me on my beliefs.
Heck I feel the word god itself is a human creation to place ones own responsibilies elsewhere. But to another this may not be their truth. They may have a truth that sees gods exactly as they are descibed, powerful and above people. That is their truth and I respect that.

So if the so called gods have no prob with me, why should any human?

[PeatBog]

Also on another occult/'pagan' forum, one post made me laugh about the common way of 'neo-pagan' worship - invoke the god, ask for something, banish with a kick up the ass, with 'hearty' merry meet, blessed be, hail, etc.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

pagans are People.

[Theres]

I've seen this too and it disgusts me! I think it's one of the reasons I moved away from polytheism, because I didn't like the idea talking only to a God when I wanted something.

i wouldn't blame that on polytheism, but rather 'shallow-ism'.