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David19
July 1st, 2006, 10:31 AM
I was on Isaac Bonewits homepage (http://www.neopagan.net/), and was reading his 'vision of Neo-pagan Druidism' (http://www.neopagan.net/NeoDruidismVision.html), and it kind of got me thinking, where do you see the future of reconstructionist religions, Bonewits says things like he sees having main temples, colleges to train Druids and other priests, etc, (although some of what he says seems to me to be kind of 'wishful thinking', like:


I see talented and well-trained Neopagan clergy leading hundreds of thousands of people in effective magical and mundane actions to save endangered species, stop polluters, and preserve wilderness. I see our healers saving thousands of lives and our bards inspiring millions through music, video, and drama in other media not yet invented. I see Neopaganism as a mass movement, changing social, political, and environmental attitudes around the world and stopping the death-mongers in their tracks.

Maybe it's me but that sounds like a 'perfect' world, and i don't see the world becoming 'perfect' ever.

But anyway, where do you think the future of recon religions will be?, do you think you'll see a time when your religion is 'big' again or have temples to it (i think in Iceland, there's an Asatru temple being planned, along with a Church and a Mosque, 'cause Iceland has seperation of religion from state, you can be any religion), and recently, in Greece, people can worship at the gods temples again (i think).

I was one recon forum (it may have been a Canaanite one, i can't remember, though), but there was a post saying Hellenic reconstructionism is starting to enter the physical world, and i think Asatru is also starting to get more 'out there' in the physical world, but what about the other religions, such as Irish reconstructionism, Celtic recons, Sumerian recons, Canaanite recons, Kemetism, etc (although with Kemeticism, i think that there's a Kemetic Orthodox temple in Chicago, i think anyway), do you think temples will ever get put up for them, do you think any of those ones will ever become more 'popular'.

I think Morr made a post here in the recon thread about starting a Celtic and/or Irish group online then hopefully offline, so i think that will start getting Celtic recon groups more 'out there'.

Anyway, what are your thoughts/beliefs/opinions?.

Thanks.

Rasenna
July 5th, 2006, 09:51 PM
I have no doubt that, one day, there will be. Not in the U.S., though...

Tim
September 1st, 2006, 12:51 AM
We will not see temples and such until we can attract people who are willing and able to shell out the money to support those projects... most Pagans I know are living pay check to pay check (even those in seemingly comfortable lifestyles)... we need people with money.

Athena-Nadine
September 1st, 2006, 11:36 AM
I have no doubt that, one day, there will be. Not in the U.S., though...

There are already Demoi in the US. Hellenion has attained 501(c)(3) status through the government, so is considered a "church" for tax purposes.

http://www.hellenion.org/Demoi.html

Tim
September 1st, 2006, 01:21 PM
I think the idea was of actual public temples as opposed to religious organizations... kind along the lines of the replica of the Parthenon in Tennessee.

Wolfpoet
September 1st, 2006, 01:30 PM
Take a look at Wales.

Not only is Druidism a recognised religion, but the arch-bishop of canterbury took part in a Druidic ceremony (he caught flack for that off the American anglicans).

Europe will be the home of paganism.

Athena-Nadine
September 1st, 2006, 01:45 PM
I think the idea was of actual public temples as opposed to religious organizations... kind along the lines of the replica of the Parthenon in Tennessee.

Maybe, but one has to start somewhere. :)

Tim
September 1st, 2006, 01:55 PM
Maybe, but one has to start somewhere. :)

Very true!! ...and with Hellenics I believe we need much more growth... more organizations beyond Hellenion (in the US) and the Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes (in Greece)... (I know there are some smaller ones that have popped up)... and there needs to be those with the pocket books to support these ventures... maybe if one of us won the Powerball.

Eldred Grimm
September 1st, 2006, 07:58 PM
Maybe I missing your point, but there are Pagan camps all over the USA. and they are open to all There is camp Gaia near Kansas City; there are others there is one near Austin TX, and one some where in Ohio. And many more these are the only ones I know of. To be a in nice meadow, grove of trees. Bank of a river, lake or beach is temple enof for me. These camps I refer to are just as good as any building. There were over1500 people last year at heart land festival at camp Gaia. unless the weather is extreme out doors is the only way for me to worship the gods of my ancestors so I am not to worried about temples
But What I am worried about is the Academic study and the lack of it here in America
What ever group you are with, In America most of us do not understand the ancient tongs that are the foundation of our faiths and have to relay on those who do and if there wrong in there research then so are those who can not read its like the church befor the reformation

Theres
September 1st, 2006, 08:40 PM
We will not see temples and such until we can attract people who are willing and able to shell out the money to support those projects... most Pagans I know are living pay check to pay check (even those in seemingly comfortable lifestyles)... we need people with money.

how about this one...?

Tim
September 1st, 2006, 11:33 PM
how about this one...?

Well... it's nice... but not exactly what I invasion when I think of a Hellenic Temple... looks more Celtic/Druidic to me.

Theres
September 1st, 2006, 11:50 PM
Well... it's nice... but not exactly what I invasion when I think of a Hellenic Temple... looks more Celtic/Druidic to me.
oh, okay... sorry.

i thought the thread was about reconstructionism in general.

Theres
September 2nd, 2006, 12:01 AM
hmmm... that sounded a bit snippier than i meant.

but the point still remains that this is a temple, and it has been done entirely by hand over a period of 7 years (and it's a little bigger as of last weekend!).

i did have plans drawn up for a Greek style temple just last year. but a clash of ideas put the mockers on that (for the time being anyway ;) ).
it was an 8' x 12' vault on a three-tiered deck (steps), and 4 columns (with crowns and bases) for the portico.
and all this i had budgeted at less than $3000, counting on volunteer labor.
so it can be done!

Tim
September 2nd, 2006, 12:27 AM
i did have plans drawn up for a Greek style temple just last year. but a clash of ideas put the mockers on that (for the time being anyway ;) ).
it was an 8' x 12' vault on a three-tiered deck (steps), and 4 columns (with crowns and bases) for the portico.
and all this i had budgeted at less than $3000, counting on volunteer labor.
so it can be done!

$3000? I'm assuming that you already have the land available but... what materials where you going to use?

Theres
September 2nd, 2006, 12:41 PM
it would be a simple wood frame building with a shingled roof. i haven't actually settled on the type of siding yet, but the prices are all within range. all this would be on a cedar deck.
i have seen many columns at recycling places, but the prices are about the same as i can get new ones for at Lowe's. the only part i'm not happy with is the fiberglass capitals, but i have a friend that may turn some for us out of wood.
(the model i'm using is the Treasury at Delphi)

and that budget doesn't include any sort of decoration or fittings, tapestries, etc.

wow, i guess this has become a thread about 'constructionism' huh? :lol:

Tim
September 3rd, 2006, 01:57 AM
This may jack up your price a bit but... have you thought about using stamped concrete for the deck and stone veneer for the siding?

Theres
September 3rd, 2006, 12:34 PM
interesting, i hadn't thought of that for the deck.
but we have explored different siding options... flagstone, granite (countertop remnants, etc), and even marble (rejected niche-covers from a local monument company).

our biggest stumbling block seems to be size. the lady who owns the property wants it bigger, while i feel smaller is better, cheaper, and more likely to serve its' intended function.

ahh well, we shall see.

Tim
September 3rd, 2006, 02:26 PM
Not that my opinion really counts but... I, personally, would prefer bigger if I was the one making the choices... a full scale reproduction of the Temple of Zeus at Olympia, the Parthenon, or the Theatre of Dionysus... but you know, full scale would be a bit pricey.

Nantonos
September 3rd, 2006, 02:42 PM
Well... it's nice... but not exactly what I invasion when I think of a Hellenic Temple... looks more Celtic/Druidic to me.

In fact a trilithon was found in older Greek temples, and also is not especially Celtic (although it was found in the south).

Here is a Celtic temple:

http://www.epona.net/images/fanum-small.jpg

Nantonos
September 3rd, 2006, 02:49 PM
But What I am worried about is the Academic study and the lack of it here in America
What ever group you are with, In America most of us do not understand the ancient tongs that are the foundation of our faiths and have to relay on those who do and if there wrong in there research then so are those who can not read its like the church befor the reformation

A reasonable concern. However, pre-reformation it was the clergy trying to prevent the populace from reading; thats not the case here. Anyone can study that wants to do so. Its the wanting part that seems to be mostly lacking.

Eldred Grimm
September 3rd, 2006, 09:15 PM
However, pre-reformation it was the clergy trying to prevent the populace from reading; thats not the case here. Anyone can study that wants to do so. Its the wanting part that seems to be mostly lacking.

I agree with you any one can study that wants to do so my point is very few do and we depend on those who do for the truth like in the edda that was interpreted in Victorian age is different than those who are interpreted in the middle of the 20th and form author to author they differ as well

ap Dafydd
September 4th, 2006, 08:04 AM
Take a look at Wales.

Not only is Druidism a recognised religion, but the arch-bishop of canterbury took part in a Druidic ceremony (he caught flack for that off the American anglicans).

Well, not exactly. The UK (the English haven't seen fit to devolve those particular powers to us Welsh) has laws that outlaw religious discrimination in some fields but there is no such thing as a "recognised religion", there's no body that would do the "recognising", for one thing.

Also the ceremony that Rowan Williams took part in has absolutely nothing to do with Paganism. Any suggestion that there's anything Pagan about the Eisteddfod Druids is vigorously slapped down as most of them are, as they always have been, fervently Christian - the early enthusiasts for the Eisteddfod were High Church Anglicans while the later ones in charge of it were (and largely still are) Calvinist Nonconformists. The Breton Eisteddfod was actually derecognised at one point because it was accused of flirting with Pagan practices (I don't have any more details on that, unfortunately).


Europe will be the home of paganism.

But I certainly agree with you on that one - it's where our roots are!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Nitefalle
September 8th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Well, I think the main issue with temples (other than the money / land) is that, in my mind, a temple implies standardization of belief. There is so much information lost / manipulated that everyone comes to the path with a different perspective, different information. Could all people of Northern beliefs (Asatru, Theodish, Icelandic, etc.) worship at a temple that was erected for the Northern gods? Could Gallic, Irish, Welsh and Scottish Recons all worship at a temple for Celtic Gods? Or would it be a temple to just one god? How would you address different time periods? Not to mention that Celtic tribes usually honored local and tribal gods, as well as the more well-known and popular gods. How would you incorporate that? Or would it just be a temple made for a certain aspect, such as healing, and you could honor all gods that are connected to healing? Those are just the two paths I have a passing familiarity with. I don't know much about the Hellenics, the Roman Recons, etc. Are these even issues for them, or were they more standardized?

Tim
September 8th, 2006, 12:06 PM
I don't know much about the Hellenics, the Roman Recons, etc. Are these even issues for them, or were they more standardized?
I don't think it would really be an issue for Hellenics... temples were basically considered a place for the Gods to "live"... used to house sacred objects... and mostly only dedicated to one God... altars were outside... they where not used in the same sense as a meeting house for a congregation... the dynamics were/are different.... so basically what I'm saying is that anyone willing to honor the God the temple is dedicated to would (most likely) be allowed to come and worship.

Nitefalle
September 15th, 2006, 09:55 AM
If we had to build a temple for each god....wowza. That's pretty much what it comes down to, doesn't it? A singular temple for each....I think that's the only way to appease all practicioners, regardless of path or perspective. Who decides the god that gets to go first?