Are 'pagans' anti-Christian?

[amunakht]

The jews and christians though other gods were "devils" trying to trick mankind away from "the one true god".

[pawnman]

That's a pretty big blanket there. A lot bigger than I'm seeing from where I'm sitting.

Perhaps. I can only base my opinion on what I've seen. I have run into very few pagans who don't regard christianity with anything less than utter contempt and heated anger. But oddly enough, they usually have christian friends who are somehow "different" from other christians. One of those things, I guess...it's easier to hate the monolithic structure than the individual people within it.

[PeatBog]

I have run into very few pagans who don't regard christianity with anything less than utter contempt

Ayn Rand, for one. But she was atheist, and had utter contempt for religion in general.

[Ptah]

The jews and christians though other gods were "devils" trying to trick mankind away from "the one true god".

First of all, this Jews and Christian thing has got to go. Christain doctrine does not conclude that there are any other diety. The first line of the Nicene creed specifically states,"We believe in one God,".

Mosaic Law, does not state there is only one god. In fact, it states ,"You will have no other gods before me." Essentially verifying belief in other diety. The Israelites were for generations Egyptian. They were very familiar with the Egyptian gods. It was the worship of HetHert that cause Moses to break the first set of Commandments. Though it is not recorded this way, I suspect he broke them because he neglected to write what ended up being the 1st Commandment.

So, Moses and Aaron are confronted with what to do with these gods the people believe in. Moses was attempting to reform these Semetic Egyptians into an independant religio-politcal people. The only way to deal with the multiple diety was to villify or demonize them as devils if chaotic or to define them as angels (winged=Sumer/Egypt) if benevolent . How do we know this? There were angels in the earliest hebraic traditions prior to Mosaic law but they were unnamed and there were no devils, at all. So where do devils originate? Egypt... they had a bunch of them to torture you in the Duat, if you were found not to be holding Ma'at.

[Ptah]

Perhaps. I can only base my opinion on what I've seen. I have run into very few pagans who don't regard christianity with anything less than utter contempt and heated anger. But oddly enough, they usually have christian friends who are somehow "different" from other christians. One of those things, I guess...it's easier to hate the monolithic structure than the individual people within it.

A fresh wound draws more attention than an old scar.

[Ryden]

First of all, this Jews and Christian thing has got to go. Christain doctrine does not conclude that there are any other diety. The first line of the Nicene creed specifically states,"We believe in one God,".

Mosaic Law, does not state there is only one god. In fact, it states ,"You will have no other gods before me." Essentially verify belief in other diety. The Israelites were for generations Egyptian. They were very familiar with the Egyptian gods. It was the worship of HetHert that cause Moses to break the first set of Commandments. Though it is not recorded this way, I suspect he broke them because he neglected to write what ended up being the 1st Commandment.



It is in the OT that there is one God. 2 Samuel 7:22 comes to mind. I interpret it, as well as other passages, as an official declaration of monotheism.

[David19]

First of all, this Jews and Christian thing has got to go. Christain doctrine does not conclude that there are any other diety. The first line of the Nicene creed specifically states,"We believe in one God,".

Mosaic Law, does not state there is only one god. In fact, it states ,"You will have no other gods before me." Essentially verify belief in other diety. The Israelites were for generations Egyptian. They were very familiar with the Egyptian gods. It was the worship of HetHert that cause Moses to break the first set of Commandments. Though it is not recorded this way, I suspect he broke them because he neglected to write what ended up being the 1st Commandment.

So, Moses and Aaron are confronted with what to do with these gods the people believe in. Moses was attempting to reform these Semetic Egyptians into an independant religio-politcal people. The only way to deal with the multiple diety was to villify or demonize them as devils if chaotic or to define them as angels (winged=Sumer/Egypt) if benevolent . How do we know this? There were angels in the earliest hebraic traditions prior to Mosaic law but they were unnamed and there were no devils, at all. So where do devils originate? Egypt... they had a bunch of them to torture you in the Duat, if you were found not to be holding Ma'at.

I really agree with your post, except, while the Hebrew's/Jew's may have been familar with the Egyptian gods (i think some of Solomon's wives were Egyptian?), they were also very familar with the Sumerian gods (a Sumerian recon told me that Abraham was an Akkadian(sp?) who worshipped the Sumerian gods, and a lot of early Jewish rituals were similar to the Sumerian ones (like, even today, one of the Jewish months is named after a Sumerian god, Dumezi(sp?) (which is also the name of July in Iraq), i think, and i think Inanna also has a place in Judaism, but i'm not too sure about that)).

But great post :).

[Ptah]

It is in the OT that there is one God. 2 Samuel 7:22 comes to mind. I interpret it, as well as other passages, as an official declaration of monotheism.

As would the Christian church. What you have to realize is that the patriarchs worshipped the God of Abraham, until Moses, after which they followed YHWH. Abraham's god was El-Shaddai. He who sits on the Mountain. El was the supreme god, the father of mankind, creatures and Ba'al and the husband of Asteroth. Shaddai is an Akkadian word for mountain. Akkadia is the same region as Haran, from where Abraham hailed.

2 Samuel 7 was Nathan's instruction to David during which he was asking David why he hadn't built a temple of their God. Afterwards, David began to talk to god :

2 Samuel 7:22 "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."

...followed by...

2 Samuel 7:23 "And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nationsand their gods?"

The following words are also attributed to David:

Pss.86 (http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2340682) :8 "Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works."
Pss.95 (http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2358628) :3 "For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods."
Pss.136 (http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2431703) :2 "O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever."

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?restrict=All&format=Long&type=simple&q1=gods&q2=&q3=&amt=0&size=more

Clearly, David believed there was more than one god. Moses did also, otherwise there would have been no need for the first commandment.

[Ptah]

I really agree with your post, except, while the Hebrew's/Jew's may have been familar with the Egyptian gods (i think some of Solomon's wives were Egyptian?), they were also very familar with the Sumerian gods (a Sumerian recon told me that Abraham was an Akkadian(sp?) who worshipped the Sumerian gods, and a lot of early Jewish rituals were similar to the Sumerian ones (like, even today, one of the Jewish months is named after a Sumerian god, Dumezi(sp?) (which is also the name of July in Iraq), i think, and i think Inanna also has a place in Judaism, but i'm not too sure about that)).

But great post :).
Thx
You are correct about Abraham but you have to realize that from the time Joseph and his family arrived in Egypt until the Exodus was over 200 years, according to the Talmudic timeline. They lived in Egypt almost as long as the US has been a Nation. That is ten generations of Egyptian culture heading out into the desert.

[Jenne]

Thx
You are correct about Abraham but you have to realize that from the time Joseph and his family arrived in Egypt until the Exodus was over 200 years, according to the Talmudic timeline. They lived in Egypt almost as long as the US has been a Nation. That is ten generations of Egyptian culture heading out into the desert.

But weren't the Jews always good at segregating themselves somewhat? If for no other reason than the indigenous/reigning cultures they were living alongside eschewed them to all get out.

The OT always seemed to paint them as brainless, spineless nits who engaged in any kind of asshattery they could...but I'm figuring they were just human and liked the addage "if it feels good, do it," like any other created being.

[Ptah]

But weren't the Jews always good at segregating themselves somewhat? If for no other reason than the indigenous/reigning cultures they were living alongside eschewed them to all get out.

They wanted to go back to worshipping the gods they knew when Moses didn't come down from the mountain. That goddess was Hathor..they were completely Egyptianized.


The OT always seemed to paint them as brainless, spineless nits who engaged in any kind of asshattery they could...but I'm figuring they were just human and liked the addage "if it feels good, do it," like any other created being.

Mainly they walked...with a little, "Woe is me." , thrown in. After Moses died, they got tired of woeing and walking and attacked Caanan.

[Protagonist]

Thats what Chritians WANT to believe. Im not going to argue with a christian, im just going to end up in a fight.
Actually, according to what I've read, that's what many Christians do believe. It's not that they want to, but can't. They just do. It's very much an leap, I agree, but most religions are. Everyone just leaps to a different plateau.

[Jenne]

They wanted to go back to worshipping the gods they knew when Moses didn't come down from the mountain. That goddess was Hathor..there were completley Egyptianized.



Mainly they walked...with a little, "Woe is me." , thrown in. After Moses died, they got tired of woeing and walking and attacked Caanan.

Yes, the Mount Sinai incident and the broken tablets. He'd been up there so long, they'd had time to smelt their jewelry!

Yes, they were known in the OT as whiners...according to what I learned when I was young. Complaints about the desert, complaints about no water (and then Moses loses his rights to get into the Promised Land after striking the rock the 3d time), and complaints about food, then complaints ABOUT the food.

*still wondering what manna tasted like...and bets it was bland*

[Protagonist]

And sometimes they did. The jews considered other gods to be demons "decieving" people. They added them to their list of demons. I know a certain annoying baptist that says Egyptians just "invented" their gods while the jews and christians just did that. He had no proof that his god existed. He just had lame-ass emotional arguements such as "Just in case there is a hell, you must believe in god", and "I know he exists because the bible says so". Pathetic arguements, he doesn't even reason he just bables on like an ignorant child. Some Christians do have problems with other gods. I don't know if they felt that way back then though but this is as far as I know.
Why do you care so much what the Christians think about your gods, exactly? And, furthermore, I don't care how much the early Jews or Christians bad-mouthed Zeus and the gang - that doesn't mean they should've been lion food.

Notice here, with your discussion of the Baptist, that no one has a good argument for their belief in deity. There are no arguments that prove God exists, nor any arguments that prove Egyptian or Greek Gods exist. There's not even any arguments that lead credence to the idea. If you want to believe in some divinity, as I've said before, you have to make a Leap. Leaps are hard for us humans, so we try to rationalize them, which is stupid.

[Magus]

Any religion , even the most peaceful ones, can become incredible self-destructive when they are taken to extreme expresions of fundamentalism. And thats also true for wiccans and other pagans. You have to understand why some christians feared witchcraft in the middle ages and that those people killed where inocent christian women (no wiccans or modern pagans). Its true that there is some sort of discrimination against us in the west, but believe me its nothing compared to Africa and the Middle East where people are actualy killed in villages for practice witchcraft. I would said, patience, lets give our collective consciousness time to ripe.

[Ptah]

*still wondering what manna tasted like...and bets it was bland*

Coriander

[Jenne]

Coriander


:lol: Bullocks!

[Ptah]

:lol: Bullocks!

Its true, either coriander or fresh oil.. Numbers 11:7-8

11:7 And the manna [was] as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.

11:8 [And] the people went about, and gathered [it], and ground [it] in mills, or beat [it] in a mortar, and baked [it] in pans, and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil.

[Jenne]

Its true, either coriander or fresh oil.. Numbers 11:7-8

11:7 And the manna [was] as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.
<A href="http://www.godrules.net/library/treasury/treasurynum11.htm#8">
11:8 [And] the people went about, and gathered [it], and ground [it] in mills, or beat [it] in a mortar, and baked [it] in pans, and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil.


Back in the day (about 15 years ago), I must've read that book with lightening speed and no memory.

I'm impressed with how old coriander is, tho.

Ok, and the taste of fresh oil is BLAND as HELL.

[LordHelmet]

I can't remember the last time I met a christian who would have even considered the possibility that someone could be christian and not 1. believe in only one God 2. Believe that Jesus is his son and is also God 3. That the bible is either the word of God, or almost as good as that, or are catholic or Morman or something. Most Don't even count the Catholics Mormans and Jehovahs Witness ect unless they are.

I haven't unless they're either on this site or hanging out with the pagan wanna be crowd (the ones where they get together to battle invisible demons), and I grew up around christianity, and have known christians from all over the US while in the military. I would be hard pressed to find a christian who I could convince that christians anywhere in any large amount have ever believed that there could be any more than one God, or that any substantial amount of what's written in the bible isn't necissarly true. They can't and won't consider the possibility in any way except to actualy question their faith as a whole, which many do.

Edit to add :

No I don't hate the christians I've known, quite the contrary there generaly good people. And the bible thumpers are the best, they never attack me for what I believe, and always treat me and everyone else with respect. Sure they think I'll either come to Jesus or go to Hell, but they're hopeing for the best and in the meantime they're genuinly nice... and honerable.

[Protagonist]

I haven't unless they're either on this site or hanging out with the People wanna be crowd (the ones where they get together to battle invisible demons), and I grew up around christianity, and have known christians from all over the US while in the military. I would be hard pressed to find a christian who I could convince that christians anywhere in any large amount have ever believed that there could be any more than one God, or that any substantial amount of what's written in the bible isn't necissarly true. They can't and won't consider the possibility in any way except to actualy question their faith as a whole, which many do.
Congratulations at having sussed out the basic tenets of Christianity. It's monotheism, kids, and it's something some of us do believe. I know it's hard to imagine, but it's real. I'm not making this up - this isn't like the time I said those chaos magicians took over the vending machine.

[LordHelmet]

Ok, and the taste of fresh oil is BLAND as HELL.

So was a lot of whatever else they ate back then and there. Regular store bread has salt sugar and other stuff to give it flavour. I suppose their meat was the only tasty stuff they ate.

but yea, fresh oil? hmmm...

[David19]

Yes, they were known in the OT as whiners...according to what I learned when I was young. Complaints about the desert, complaints about no water (and then Moses loses his rights to get into the Promised Land after striking the rock the 3d time), and complaints about food, then complaints ABOUT the food.

*still wondering what manna tasted like...and bets it was bland*

Isn't manna what Yahweh's angels eat?.

About the Jew's being 'whiners', i think Yahweh, himself, got annoyed a few times, i don't remember the passages but he basically threatens to kill them all and Moses has to calm him down (i think Yahweh said he'd kill everyone of them and start a new line through Moses).

So, he's probably not the best god to complain too, or annoy or anger.

[David19]

Thx
You are correct about Abraham but you have to realize that from the time Joseph and his family arrived in Egypt until the Exodus was over 200 years, according to the Talmudic timeline. They lived in Egypt almost as long as the US has been a Nation. That is ten generations of Egyptian culture heading out into the desert.

Thanks for that information.

This is probably off topic, but was Hathor sort of like the main goddess they worshipped in Egypt or were there others?.

It seems to Jew's have a lot of relationships with a few deities (Sumerian, etc).

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I've got to say, YHVH displayed *infinite* patience to the Jews while they were wandering the desert and when they ruled Jerusalem. They were always whinging about this or that while they were wandering, and then they were constantly turning their faces to other gods, or lusting after idols in their hearts, but YHVH ALWAYS ended up forgiving them, giving them what they wanted, or giving them another chance. All his talk about being a jealous and unforgiving God, I think really he was just trying to impress them, or maybe he was trash-talking himself, who knows - but the OT YHVH isn't that much of a jerk, when you think about it.

[David19]

but the OT YHVH isn't that much of a jerk, when you think about it.

I know, something on a lot of 'pagan' sites is always about how 'evil' Yahweh is, or they'll say 'our gods aren't jealous' or stuff like that, i personally think he is a 'jealous god' but not in a bad way, many gods are jealous, e.g. Pele, i think, is an Haiwaiian(sp?) volcanoe goddess who is jealous, there are lots of 'myths' about Hera being jealous (and maybe Zeus too?), etc.

[LostSheep]

I can't remember the last time I met a christian who would have even considered the possibility that someone could be christian and not 1. believe in only one God 2. Believe that Jesus is his son and is also God 3. That the bible is either the word of God, or almost as good as that, or are catholic or Morman or something. Most Don't even count the Catholics Mormans and Jehovahs Witness ect unless they are.
Sometimes it's fun to think outside the box.

[Ptah]

Back in the day (about 15 years ago), I must've read that book with lightening speed and no memory.

I'm impressed with how old coriander is, tho.

Ok, and the taste of fresh oil is BLAND as HELL.

Its not known whether they are talking about making corainder cakes or something else. I know that coriander is high in essential oils maybe that was the oil they were talking about.

I have developed a theory on this event and those leading up to the Exodus. But thats another thread...

[Ptah]

I've got to say, YHVH displayed *infinite* patience to the Jews while they were wandering the desert and when they ruled Jerusalem.

He killed half of them almost immediately... not much patience there.

[Ptah]

I know, something on a lot of 'pagan' sites is always about how 'evil' Yahweh is, or they'll say 'our gods aren't jealous' or stuff like that, i personally think he is a 'jealous god' but not in a bad way,...

Read Exodus, Kings and Samuel and all the minor prophets, you might change your mind. And don't forget Job...

[Ptah]

Thanks for that information.

This is probably off topic, but was Hathor sort of like the main goddess they worshipped in Egypt or were there others?.

It seems to Jew's have a lot of relationships with a few deities (Sumerian, etc).

Hathor was a main diety of Egypt, there were many. The Festival of Hathor was a week long orgy of sex and drunkeness (rather like Mardi Gras).

[HetHert]

Hathor was a main diety of Egypt, there were many. The Festival of Hathor was a week long orgy of sex and drunkeness (rather like Mardi Gras).

:cheers:

[Jenne]

Its not known whether they are talking about making corainder cakes or something else. I know that coriander is high in essential oils maybe that was the oil they were talking about.

I have developed a theory on this event and those leading up to the Exodus. But thats another thread... Do tell.

[Jenne]

:cheers:

*joins HH* :cheers:

[equinox2]

Silverfire Darkmoon wrote:

All his talk about being a jealous and unforgiving God, …. maybe he was trash-talking himself, who knows - but the OT YHVH isn't that much of a jerk, when you think about it.

David 19 wrote:


how 'evil' Yahweh is, or they'll say

Um, hold on. It took me a minute to pick my jaw off the floor here – you both must be referring to a different YHVH or something. The God of the Bible does a lot of, well, “unkind” things, such as:


Ordering mass murders of thousands of people, because they happen to live on land he wants. From Ex through Num
Directly killing thousands of children himself – just to “show his glory” Ex
Drowning millions of people, including babies, children, mothers and fathers Gen
Ordering a father to kill, disembowl, cut up, and then burn his son Gen
Ordering the execution of children, and praising & rewarding the murderer when the murderer gives YHVH a basketful of the chopped off kid heads
Making a baby suffer for a week, then finally killing it, because YHVH was mad over something that someone else did
Burning people to death because they burned their incense to him incorrectly
Killing two people for touching the ark, even though they only touched it to keep it from falling over
Ordering that people with other religions be killed because of their religion – oh, and destroy & desecrate their temples too. Ex
Ordering that anyone under his dictatorship who invites someone to worship some other god be publically stoned by their own family. (try to imagine doing that – being ordered to kill your sister, etc)
Commanding that a town be completely killed, except for the virgin girls who are to be given to the blood-spattered soldiers who just killed their families


And that’s just a start. We can look at the specific Bible verses that describe each of those, and others that I didn't mention as well. Of course, all of that is nothing compared to what YHVH does in the new testament, which is torture, for all eternity, billions of people because they aren't Christian, no matter how good a person they are – so Gandhi and Anne Frank writhe in agony forever.

To look at all that (even just the OT stuff) and say “YHVH isn’t that much of a jerk” just boggles my mind. I really wonder what someone would have to do to be a jerk in that case. All of this exceeds anything Hitler did, and I certainly consider him a jerk. I wonder how any rational system of morality can look at this list and say “oh, all that is OK”. I know I can’t.

I have no problem with the liberal Christian who is as appalled by all this as I am, and who is loving and kind of everyone, regardless of religion. My conscience requires me, however, to honestly call a spade a spade, and that means openly condemning things like a god that rejoices in a basketful of child heads.


'our gods aren't jealous' or stuff like that, i personally think he is a 'jealous god' but not in a bad way,

Not in a bad way? The stuff above about attacking people with other religions is OK? If the President of the US ordered our troops to invade India and kill anyone who is a Hindu, would that be “not in a bad way”?


many gods are jealous,

So if a lot of people do something wrong, that makes it OK?

I think it is a matter of personal integrity and honesty to be able to look at harmful actions and say that they are harmful, regardless of who did them. Isn’t that what defines civilization as opposed to rule by force?

Love and Light-

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

....we can ALSO look at the many cases where he *wasn't* a jerk. I've noticed that people tend to bitch and obsess over all the bad shit in the Bible, and happily ignore the good bits.

[HetHert]

....we can ALSO look at the many cases where he *wasn't* a jerk. I've noticed that people tend to bitch and obsess over all the bad shit in the Bible, and happily ignore the good bits.


Thats usually because happiness and joy don't scar like fear, anger, and wrath.

[Jenne]

There's loads to love in the Bible.

Hey, Jesus was the original Happy Hippie.

Just saying.

[equinox2]

I wish people would stop obsessing over the bad stuff that Hitler did, and instead ignore that and recognize all the good stuff he did, like getting flowers for his girlfriend. Hitler did lots of good stuff, so since he did good stuff, we can ignore any bad stuff he did. After all, we don't want to be overly negative or mean do we?






In all seriousness, SD is right that there is lots of good stuff in the Bible. There are beautiful psalms, statements of humility and kindness, good stuff like "love your neighbor as yourself" in Leviticus, which Jesus later quotes, the nice sermon on the mount, etc. All that good stuff is indeed good.

When something contains both good and bad stuff, we should recognize both for what they are. That's why I support the Christian who embraces the good while openly rejecting the bad. What I dont support is the fundamentalist who calls the bad stuff good, by saying things like "God is the supreme ruler, so whatever he does is OK". I also don't support the person who "creatively reinterprets" clearly vicious parts of the bible by saying things like "oh, when the bible says to kill everyone except the virgins, maybe it is just a symbol for killing all the bad things and preserving the pure", or whatever.

There certainly is both good and bad. The good is good and the bad is bad. We are all adult enough to agree that both exist in the Bible. The good shows that all religions have some good in them. The bad shows that the Bible has some very questionable morals that should be openly discussed and questioned, just as everything should be.

All the best-

[HetHert]

I wish people would stop obsessing over the bad stuff that Hitler did, and instead ignore that and recognize all the good stuff he did, like getting flowers for his girlfriend. Hitler did lots of good stuff, so since he did good stuff, we can ignore any bad stuff he did. After all, we don't want to be overly negative or mean do we?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[David19]

Ordering mass murders of thousands of people, because they happen to live on land he wants. From Ex through Num
Directly killing thousands of children himself – just to “show his glory” Ex
Drowning millions of people, including babies, children, mothers and fathers Gen
Ordering a father to kill, disembowl, cut up, and then burn his son Gen
Ordering the execution of children, and praising & rewarding the murderer when the murderer gives YHVH a basketful of the chopped off kid heads
Making a baby suffer for a week, then finally killing it, because YHVH was mad over something that someone else did
Burning people to death because they burned their incense to him incorrectly
Killing two people for touching the ark, even though they only touched it to keep it from falling over
Ordering that people with other religions be killed because of their religion – oh, and destroy & desecrate their temples too. Ex
Ordering that anyone under his dictatorship who invites someone to worship some other god be publically stoned by their own family. (try to imagine doing that – being ordered to kill your sister, etc)
Commanding that a town be completely killed, except for the virgin girls who are to be given to the blood-spattered soldiers who just killed their families


And that’s just a start. We can look at the specific Bible verses that describe each of those, and others that I didn't mention as well. Of course, all of that is nothing compared to what YHVH does in the new testament, which is torture, for all eternity, billions of people because they aren't Christian, no matter how good a person they are – so Gandhi and Anne Frank writhe in agony forever.

Well considering Yahweh is god of the Jew's, i doubt Anne Frank is being tortured.

Also, yes the list of things that he does do is bad, but there are also a lot of good things (people prayed to him for pregnancies, and he granted it, when the Virgin Mary appears to people, it's not to order killing, but is full of love, yeah they're 2 different deities, but Mary and Yahweh are in the same pantheon).

Also, when you list:


Ordering that people with other religions be killed because of their religion – oh, and destroy & desecrate their temples too. Ex

The Roman's killed the Jew's just becaue they were Jewish, they also burned down the Temple of Jerusalem, placed a pigs head on the altar, and rededicated it to Jupiter, etc, and i don't think the Roman gods stepped in to stop the Roman's.

[David19]

....we can ALSO look at the many cases where he *wasn't* a jerk. I've noticed that people tend to bitch and obsess over all the bad shit in the Bible, and happily ignore the good bits.

Exactly, that's a problem i've seen people do, it's also a bit hypocritical to basically say, 'look, at how 'evil' 'their' god is, ours are really 'peaceful''.

Raven Kaldera wrote an article addressing something similar, and is really good, IMO. It's called Ancestral Ambivalence (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/asphodel/articles/ancestral_ambivalence.html).

[amunakht]

[sarcastic] Yeah Hitler also designed the first volkswagen.

That "god" might have simply been an evil spirit decieving the Jews from the true gods. You know, "astral deception".

[Ptah]

....we can ALSO look at the many cases where he *wasn't* a jerk. I've noticed that people tend to bitch and obsess over all the bad shit in the Bible, and happily ignore the good bits.

If I have a friend that is a jerk half the time, he's a jerk all the time, IMO.

Lets start at the beginning and you can tell me where he wasn't being a jerk.

Garden of Eden
Cain and Abel
Great flood
Abraham (pick any tale)
Lot
Jacob & Esau
Joseph, brothers and family
Moses, Egyptians
Joshua, Caanan, Jericho et al
Gideon, Caanan, anyone left
Saul, Philistia
David, Philistia, Hittites
Assyria
Babylon
Persia
Rome

Is there a time in Israel's history when they weren't being punished for supposed slights to God? Enquiring minds want to know..

[HetHert]

The issue with the hypocrisy of pagans being anti-christian is the pains of sluffing off years of oppression.

There will always be people who have a distaste for that which they have either had a bad experience with or feel has oppressed them in some way. Whether directly, indirectly, or vicariously.

We could paint the praises, virtues, and accolades of the bible and all the Books there within and it's still not going to change the fact that there are people who are going to dig out the opposite extreme to give them support to continue holding onto their opinion and belief there in. Openmindedness isn't something one can impress upon another. Tolerance isn't something that one can force another to see. Their both ways of thinking and being that require time and effort to create within a person and currently there are still enough people out there that resent and hold Christianity as the faith that oppressed its developement through time. That Christianity forced into hiding and occulted the pagan path and way of being. So now that we are experiencing a reawakening of this path, of course, there are those that are going to seek out the fault of that which shunned it underground, took away from its glory as the path to enlightenment and such and are going to see it through fear, anger, and hateful glasses. Thats just the way of some people.

[Ptah]

Exactly, that's a problem i've seen people do, it's also a bit hypocritical to basically say, 'look, at how 'evil' 'their' god is, ours are really 'peaceful''.

err Set, Horus, Sekhmet, Pakhet...

It is the monotheistic mindset that labels gods right or wrong, good or evil. True polytheists (those who have shed all monotheistic Abrahamic indoctrination) understand that gods will act within their nature. They don't judge or deny their acts or interplay. I know of no one who says Set is peaceful. It is within his aspect to be the strongest and to try to prove it being number 1. It is within Horus the Younger's aspect to try to avenge his father and rise to the throne. Neither of those acts are evil. When brought ot judgment, not even Ra could decide.

Thats the difference...

[Ptah]

[sarcastic] Yeah Hitler also designed the first volkswagen.

Huh???? He did in '32 in Munich. What does that have to do with anything?

[amunakht]

err Set, Horus, Sekhmet, Pakhet...

It is the monotheistic mindset that labels gods right or wrong, good or evil. True polytheists (those who have shed all monotheistic Abrahamic indoctrination) understand that gods will act within their nature. They don't judge or deny their acts or interplay. I know of no one who says Set is peaceful. It is within his aspect to be the strongest and to try to prove it being number 1. It is within Horus the Younger's aspect to try to avenge his father and rise to the throne. Neither of those acts are evil. When brought ot judgment, not even Ra could decide.

Thats the difference...

Yes, in polytheism it's just shades of gray. Set isn't exactly evil, hes just more violent. If he didn't kill his brother there would be no afterlife. He also protects Ra.

[equinox2]

Quote:

Ordering that people with other religions be killed because of their religion – oh, and destroy & desecrate their temples too. Ex


The Roman's killed the Jew's just becaue they were Jewish, they also burned down the Temple of Jerusalem, placed a pigs head on the altar, and rededicated it to Jupiter, etc, and i don't think the Roman gods stepped in to stop the Roman's.

Sure, that's wrong too. Did you read where I asked you if other people doing bad things justifies doing bad things? There were thousands of rapes in the US last year - that certainly doesn't mean it's OK for me to rape people.


Well considering Yahweh is god of the Jew's, i doubt Anne Frank is being tortured.

According to the new testament, Jesus is the only way to avoid Hell, and Anne certainly wasn't Christian. In fact, the jews were the target of the worst hatred and attacks from Christianity, especially early on. Have you ever read the sermon by Melito of Sardis? It's one of the earliest Christian sermons we have, and it reads like a neo-nazi speech.

David19, I agree with you that any god, regardless of who's favorite they are, is open to being called evil if what they do is evil. I don't play favorites, what is good is good, and what is evil is evil, regardless of whether or not I like the one doing it.

Blessings-

[equinox2]

David19 wrote:


The Roman's killed the Jew's just becaue they were Jewish, they also burned down the Temple of Jerusalem,

Um no. Actually the Romans were usually quite tolerant of Judaism. They killed Jews and sacked Jerusalem because the Jews rebelled. The Jews were usually allowed to keep their religion while in the roman empire, something that previous conquerors didn't always do. Jews in the Roman army were even allowed to take Saturdays off, something that other soldiers were not allowed to do. Yes, the Romans were very harsh after the Jewish rebellion in the 70's, but they didn't kill Jews because they were Jewish.

I agree that the Roman empire did terrible things (like crucifying thousands of criminals), but they were much more religiously tolerant than the Muslims under the sultans, the Christians under the Popes, or the Jews under the Levites.

May your mind soar like the eagle-

[amunakht]

Guys, check this out: http://www.evilbible.com

[David19]

David19 wrote:



Um no. Actually the Romans were usually quite tolerant of Judaism. They killed Jews and sacked Jerusalem because the Jews rebelled. The Jews were usually allowed to keep their religion while in the roman empire, something that previous conquerors didn't always do. Jews in the Roman army were even allowed to take Saturdays off, something that other soldiers were not allowed to do. Yes, the Romans were very harsh after the Jewish rebellion in the 70's, but they didn't kill Jews because they were Jewish.

I agree that the Roman empire did terrible things (like crucifying thousands of criminals), but they were much more religiously tolerant than the Muslims under the sultans, the Christians under the Popes, or the Jews under the Levites.

May your mind soar like the eagle-

If you call placing a non-kosher animal on the Jewish altar (e.g. a pig's head), burning down the Temple, and an entire Jewish village commiting suicide just to avoid being raped, murdered and pillaged by the Roman army, 'tolerant'.

Plus, the Roman's did outlaw Judaism, that's not exactly 'tolerant', just 'cause they didn't want to be ruled by an invading army (would you like it if suddenly tomorrow, an army came marching into your town, said 'ok you can worship your gods, as long as you worship our emperors and our gods first' and then basically taking over, 'cause i wouldn't, and it was wrong for the Roman's to do, it was wrong for the Spanish and English to do to the Native American's and African's, etc).

[David19]

The issue with the hypocrisy of pagans being anti-christian is the pains of sluffing off years of oppression.

Yeah, but a lot of 'pagans' don't know much about true suffering or true persecution, not like the Native American's, African's, Jew's, Gypsies, Aboriginal's (in Australia), etc. That's true suffering (and most of them still suffer and are persecuted, i think Aboriginal's are discriminated against, Native American's don't have their land, and i think they are also discriminated against, and there are still anti-Semitic attacks going on).

[equinox2]

David19 wrote:

If you call placing a non-kosher animal on the Jewish altar (e.g. a pig's head), burning down the Temple,

Of course it isn't a justifiable thing to do, but that was in response to the jewish rebellion. Before that the Romans had helped in the upkeep of the Jewish temple. In fact, between 80 and around 130, there was an expectation among the Jews that the Romans may rebuild their temple, since the Romans normall accomodated Judaism. Plus, you didn't comment on the behavior of the early Christians toward the Jews. The Romans were certainly nicer to Jews than the Christians were.


an army came marching into your town, said 'ok you can worship your gods, as long as you worship our emperors and our gods first' and then basically taking over, 'cause i wouldn't, and it was wrong for the Roman's to do, it was wrong for the Spanish and English to do to the Native American's and African's, etc).

What we did to the Native Americans was far worse. The Romans said "you can worship as you please, as long as you at least give token worship of the emperor". We said "you cannot worship your gods because they are demons, you have to completely convert to our religion". Sure, they are both bad, and I don't pretend to say that what the Romans did was OK, but it's better than the intolerance commanded by the Bible and enacted by leaders again and again in history.

Take care-

[David19]

err Set, Horus, Sekhmet, Pakhet...

It is the monotheistic mindset that labels gods right or wrong, good or evil. True polytheists (those who have shed all monotheistic Abrahamic indoctrination) understand that gods will act within their nature. They don't judge or deny their acts or interplay. I know of no one who says Set is peaceful. It is within his aspect to be the strongest and to try to prove it being number 1. It is within Horus the Younger's aspect to try to avenge his father and rise to the throne. Neither of those acts are evil. When brought ot judgment, not even Ra could decide.

Thats the difference...

I agree with you and that's what i think too, i don't see any of the gods as pure 'evil' or pure 'good', i view them more like the Sumerian's and Babylonian's, that the gods aren't any of those, they do what they want.

But, i don't like it when people say Yahweh is 'pure evil', when none of the gods are, IMO (at least not the ones worshipped by humans).

I think it was Morr who made a post in one thread recently about her experiences with YHWH, despite being an Irish recon, it made a lot of sense and i agreed with it a lot (i can't remember what thread it was, though).

I also don't see that Yahweh is 'evil' because so many good people i know and knew worshipped him (my grandma on my dad's side was Catholic, she was very kind, she accepted my uncle and didn't care he was gay, and probably would've felt the same about me if she knew, i don't believe she worshipped an 'evil' god, plus Mother Teresa(sp?, i think i may have spelt her name wrong), and Anne Frank were both innocent, i don't believe they (and all the Holocaust victims) have gone realm ruled by an 'evil' god, etc).

But i really agree with your post.

[David19]

That "god" might have simply been an evil spirit decieving the Jews from the true gods. You know, "astral deception".

That sounds like what fundamentalist Christian's say about 'Paganism'.

[equinox2]

David19 wrote:

Yeah, but a lot of 'pagans' don't know much about true suffering or true persecution, not like the Native American's, African's, Jew's, Gypsies, Aboriginal's (in Australia), etc.

True. I for one have never suffered anything like so many of the groups mentioned. Most of us in today's modern world live better lives than even kings 100 years ago did, not to mention the oppressed.

[amunakht]

That sounds like what fundamentalist Christian's say about 'Paganism'.
Well thats what I think about "God".

[equinox2]

David19 wrote:


so many good people i know and knew worshipped him (my grandma on my dad's side was Catholic, she was very kind, she accepted my uncle and didn't care he was gay, and probably would've felt the same about me if she knew

Certainly true - there are many, many wonderful Chirstians and Jews who accept other religions and accept gays. However, I think that fact is evidence that they don't read and follow the Bible more than that fact is evidence that some god named YHVH is good or even exists. The Bible says over and over that homosexuality, and especially other religions, are not to be tolerated under any circumstance. That's practically the main point of the old testament.

[equinox2]

Amunakht wrote:

Guys, check this out: http://www.evilbible.com

Ouch.

[HetHert]

Yeah, but a lot of 'pagans' don't know much about true suffering or true persecution, not like the Native American's, African's, Jew's, Gypsies, Aboriginal's (in Australia), etc. That's true suffering (and most of them still suffer and are persecuted, i think Aboriginal's are discriminated against, Native American's don't have their land, and i think they are also discriminated against, and there are still anti-Semitic attacks going on).

Its not a contest. Oppression is oppression is oppression. Just because one set of people hasn't experienced to the depth, degree, or aspect of another is really irrelevant. Just because an impoverished child in the US hasn't experienced the same poverty as a child in Honduras doesn't change the fact that both children experienced a form of poverty. Lets not take away from the this that simply because one experienced a different degree it should excuse or paint their picture in a better a light. It is what it is. Is it fair to squelch anothers feelings simply because they haven't experienced in the same ways as another. It doesn't change the fact that that person is experiencing what they are. Atrocities being what they are...Christian domination of the pagans was what it was in its time of history just as the Settling of the Americas was what it was...they both had harsh and atrocious consequences for a group of people who lost a great deal at the hands of an oppressive force.

The best way that I can think of for pagans to deal with the oppressive nature of the Christian religioun is: 1. Learn from it, take what you can from the history and circumstances of the events that brought us to this point in our being what you can as knowledge and wisdome. 2. Meditate on the concepts of what that oppression has afforded this path. Allow it to sink in and hit home how horrible the nature of oppression can be. 3. Rise above the need to return the oppression back upon the other party and stop the cycle of behavior, we stop the need to find fault, seek retribution, and loose that chip that continues a cycle of fear, anger, and hate.

Blame the politics of the religion. Blame the leaders who pervert and abuse power...but to find fault with the religion itself and the Gods there within is disrepectful and against a path of openness that paganism has become synonymous with. To me its not a competition of my Gods are better than your Gods, look what your God did to all those people...Heck I can't EVEN get away with that mentality, as my matron's story is one filled to the brim with bloodlust and carnage. If your going to find fault with the other guys God...just be sure you've taken a good look at your own.

[David19]

Plus, you didn't comment on the behavior of the early Christians toward the Jews. The Romans were certainly nicer to Jews than the Christians were.

It wasn't just the early Christian's, it went on right through to the modern day (in the Middle ages, Christian's would torture Jew's into 'coverting' to Christianity, then they were burnt alive anyway), but i see what your saying about comparrison's (although, it's a little 'funny' that Jew's have always been targeted by Rome, whether it were the 'pagans' or the Christian's, it's something to think about...).

[LostSheep]

Like i've said before, i just think it's a shame that when the basis of Christainity was being set out, whether by the apostles or by Paul, they didn't decide to leave the old testament aside and just select the parts that were relevant to what Jesus wanted to say. After all,. Jesus* did say, didn't he (i'm not a biblical scholar so i can't quote it off the top of my head) something to the effect that he didn't completley supersede the Old testament, but updated it ... so there was an opportunity to sift through it and pick out the bits that were still relevant.

As usual, I blame Paul. Or the Council of Nicea.

*usual proviso on whether or not you beleive he actually existed, of course

[David19]

but to find fault with the religion itself and the Gods there within is disrepectful and against a path of openness that paganism has become synonymous with. To me its not a competition of my Gods are better than your Gods, look what your God did to all those people...Heck I can't EVEN get away with that mentality, as my matron's story is one filled to the brim with bloodlust and carnage. If your going to find fault with the other guys God...just be sure you've taken a good look at your own.

I just wanted to say i love what you wrote, that's exactly what i think too, don't blame the gods of a particular religion unless you are 100% certain your gods 'fluffy' and 'pure good'.

Great post again :).

[equinox2]

David19 wrote:

(although, it's a little 'funny' that Jew's have always been targeted by Rome, whether it were the 'pagans' or the Christian's, it's something to think about...).

Yeah, that is a bit odd. Exchanging one problem for a worse one.

Lost Sheep wrote:


i just think it's a shame that when the basis of Christainity was being set out, whether by the apostles or by Paul, they didn't decide to leave the old testament aside and just select the parts that were relevant to what Jesus wanted to say.

Some early Christians did. The Marcionite Christians completely rejected the old testament, seeing the new testament as completely superseding it. Many Gnostic Christian groups believed that the OT God and and the God of Jesus had to be different, for a whole list of scriptural reasons, (see the "antitheses"). Other Christian groups mixed some OT in different ways. Overall, the Roman form of Christianity won out, partly because by claiming the whole OT, it was able to claim to be old, and in the ancient world a religion had to be ancient to be considered a "real" religion - we still have some of that today.

Take care-

[LostSheep]

Some early Christians did. The Marcionite Christians completely rejected the old testament, seeing the new testament as completely superseding it. Many Gnostic Christian groups believed that the OT God and and the God of Jesus had to be different, for a whole list of scriptural reasons, (see the "antitheses").
Yes, and that gave the Roman church the excuse to stamp them out with as much vigour as the OT God did to everyone who came into his sight ... (see also the Cathars).

[amunakht]

...the ancient world a religion had to be ancient to be considered a "real" religion - we still have some of that today

Yeah I see that with scientology all the time.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Okay, you know what? You people are all a whiny bunch of twits who haven't grown out of your anti-Christian phase. OH MY GOD THE XTIANS ARE OPRESSING US! Help, help, I'm being repressed! See the brutality inherent in the system! Go read your Silver RavenWolf and your Z. Budapest, because it is only among their small-minded and immature ilk that your terribly, TERRIBLY bigoted twaddle will be appreciated.
I am absolutely ashamed that such intolerance is practiced by people who call themselves pagans. You sicken me.

[Jenne]

Rut roh Raggy...modding ahead.

[HetHert]

Rut roh Raggy...modding ahead.

ZOIKS!

You said it Scoobs!

[David19]

David19 wrote:Certainly true - there are many, many wonderful Chirstians and Jews who accept other religions and accept gays. However, I think that fact is evidence that they don't read and follow the Bible more than that fact is evidence that some god named YHVH is good or even exists. The Bible says over and over that homosexuality, and especially other religions, are not to be tolerated under any circumstance. That's practically the main point of the old testament.

I can see your point, kind of, but i don't think liberal Christian's/Jew's/Muslim's, etc 'ignore' the bible or YHWH, it's just liberal ones don't take everything literally, and some see things as only relavant for a specific time, e.g. the anti-homosexuality 'laws' you see in the bible were only put there when the Jew's wanted to become a nation, as they were still tribal, so they wanted to reproduce more, and get a bigger population, which you can't do with LGBT people, even though homosexuality was a part of early Judaism, etc.

But the 'whole point' of the Old Testament (which is a part of the Torah) isn't to be 'against' other religions, some may see it that way, but the 'point' was to be part of the religion of Judaism and provide spiritual 'guidance' for the Jew's, etc.

Even though people say the bible and/or Yahweh are 'opposed' to LGBT people, i don't see it that way. And my uncle is gay and Catholic, he goes to Church every sunday (he's even more devout than my dad), and he hasn't been 'struck down' by Yahweh, and there are thousands of gay Christian's that have found spiritual fufilment in Christianity/Judaism/Islam, etc, plus it's not like other religions and cultures (of 'pagan' times) were that 'supportive' of LGBT people, e.g. in the Norse culture, gay people were drowned in bogs, i think, even though in Greece and Rome, people did have sex with the same sex, you were still expected to marry and have kids and people who didn't were looked 'down upon', interestingly, there is evidence that the early Christian's performed gay marriages, so i guess Jesus wasn't anti-gay afterall :).

And there are other examples of gay people being treated crap by 'pagans', although i think in the Mayan and Aztec culture, gay people weren't that looked down upon, as nobles would set up their teen sons with other teen boys, and i think in Ancient Egypt, gay people weren't that looked down upon (correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't there a tomb found that belonged to a gay couple?), etc.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I might add that I've never heard this kind of hate-filled ranting come from one of those wicked, fiendish, pagan-slaughtering Christians.

[amunakht]

Okay, you know what? You people are all a whiny bunch of twits who haven't grown out of your anti-Christian phase. OH MY GOD THE XTIANS ARE OPRESSING US! Help, help, I'm being repressed! See the brutality inherent in the system! Go read your Silver RavenWolf and your Z. Budapest, because it is only among their small-minded and immature ilk that your terribly, TERRIBLY bigoted twaddle will be appreciated.
I am absolutely ashamed that such intolerance is practiced by people who call themselves pagans. You sicken me.

If you don't like it, then I suggest you leave.:wave:

I have heard those "wicked, fiendish, pagan-slaughtering Christians". Baptists especially, since their so "fundamentalist".

Where have you been, that you haven't ever heard of them speak of such things?

[Infinite Grey]

If you don't like it, then I suggest you leave.

:yayah: very funny

[Ptah]

Okay, you know what? You people are all a whiny bunch of twits who haven't grown out of your anti-Christian phase. OH MY GOD THE XTIANS ARE OPRESSING US! Help, help, I'm being repressed! See the brutality inherent in the system! Go read your Silver RavenWolf and your Z. Budapest, because it is only among their small-minded and immature ilk that your terribly, TERRIBLY bigoted twaddle will be appreciated.
I am absolutely ashamed that such intolerance is practiced by people who call themselves pagans. You sicken me.

You're kidding.. right?

[Infinite Grey]

For those that have been quoting my Low/High - Context theory, this is an example of a Low-Context interpertation of Christian doctrines (though sadly Christian often take the same chain of thought)



Certainly true - there are many, many wonderful Chirstians and Jews who accept other religions and accept gays. However, I think that fact is evidence that they don't read and follow the Bible more than that fact is evidence that some god named YHVH is good or even exists. The Bible says over and over that homosexuality, and especially other religions, are not to be tolerated under any circumstance. That's practically the main point of the old testament


This fails to take into account the nature of the original culture in which these beliefs were held. Homosexuality is only really directly condemned once in the bible, the rest of the time it is an emphasized point for debauchery. 2000 or even 5000 years ago, a man's prosperity was judged predominately by how many cattle he had, his house AND by how many children he had. Homosexuals have a tendency (at the time) to have no children, and also take into account that adultery was and is very much against the doctrines too, there really wasn't any room for homosexuality at the time. But times have changed, a personal prosperity are no longer determined but the same criteria. So it would be safe to say, that homosexuality isn't really a sin.

As to religions, or the lack of tolerance of other religions. Well that can be attributed to tribal rivalry, practiced by all religions at the time. The Aramaic simply lasted longer, but then again, the NT doesn't tell people to go out slaughter thy enemies... in fact, it tells it's followers to love thy enemies.

oh well, just my opinion.

[equinox2]

David19 wrote:

I can see your point, kind of, but i don't think liberal Christian's/Jew's/Muslim's, etc 'ignore' the bible or YHWH, it's just liberal ones don't take everything literally,

Having read the whole Bible, liberal CJMs must be "not taking it literally" in so many areas that the meaning that the people who wrote the Bible meant is removed. There is stuff over and over in both the old and the new testament that other religions are not acceptable, and other things like that, which are ignored by liberal CJMs. Now, I happen to LIKE the position of the liberal CJMs much more than the fundamentalists - I just think it's a little dishonest to take a text, claim it as your holy scripture, and yet not follow it. Hey, that's kinda what the early Christians did with the OT.:idea:


For liberal CJMs, it seems as if they first decide what kind of religion they want (say one based on love, tolerance, & kindness), and then twist the Bible around to fit it, and call themselves Christian. It just seems dishonest, like using a popular name like “Christian” is what they are really after, instead of actually following the Bible – which certainly isn’t about tolerance. I don't think it is dishonest per se - I think they just don't know the Bible that well. They were raised to be Christian, and to think that the bible is all good - who can blame them?

This is the constant struggle I see within any liberal CJM group, be that UU Christians, Episcopalians, or Methodists. They try to claim to be Christian and follow the Bible, but at the same time they stretch and reinterpret the Bible to say things that are often the opposite of what the Bible writers meant. They can either treat the Bible that way – which seems dishonest, or ignore those parts completely. Either way, it seems that they cling to the name “Christian” and "bible", for other reasons, such as their being raised with the name, or the name being popular in society, or the name being old, etc.

I mean, do we treat ANY old or new book the way liberal CJMs treat the Bible? Do we take any book, claim it is divinely inspired, then say it means things that are the opposite of what the authors clearly meant? I'm as liberal as they come, but I have to (usually) agree with the fundies on what the Bible says. It's hard for me to even imagine treating another text like that.

Taking, say, Plato's republic and saying "oh, when he says philospher-king, he really means any person, and by 'rule' he means 'suggest'", or whatever. I see this whenever I hear a discussion between a liberal CJM and a fundy CJM about say, LGBTs, or the proper role of women, or evolution, or whatever. I wholeheartedly agree with the liberal position, but agree with the fundy that the Bible doesn't support it. The only difference between me and the liberal CJM is that I see that as evidence to drop the Bible, while they don't feel comfortable doing that - so they twist it as needed.


and some see things as only relavant for a specific time, e.g. the anti-homosexuality 'laws' you see in the bible were only put there when the Jew's wanted to become a nation, as they were still tribal, so they wanted to reproduce more,

Hmmm? One of the strongest passages against LGBT is by our buddy Paul in the new testament, who also urged people not to marry, so he didn't care about reproduction. That's centuries after the old passage you are referring to from leviticus.


there are thousands of gay Christian's that have found spiritual fufilment in Christianity/Judaism/Islam, etc,

Sure. They were raised with and are familiar with CJM, as I mentioned above. What else are they going to do? It can be too scary to strike out on your own, perhaps easier and more familiar to just selectively ignore parts of your own religion, and continue to support a church that preaches against who you are. That's getting harder and harder for Catholics, the new Pope is even more fundamentalist and anti-gay than usual.


there is evidence that the early Christian's performed gay marriages

I am very familar with all the evidence we have about early Christianity, and it doesn't include that to my knowledge. I'd really like to see what you are talking about. That sounds like an urban legend to me. Could you please provide some basis to think that might be true?


plus it's not like other religions and cultures (of 'pagan' times) were that 'supportive' of LGBT people,

I agree. Some cultures have been terrible - an even stronger case can be made about misogyny. Still, this isn't a contest, so one group doing a bad thing does not justify the bad thing.

Take care-

[equinox2]

Silverfire Darkmoon wrote:

I might add that I've never heard this kind of hate-filled ranting come from one of those wicked, fiendish, pagan-slaughtering Christians.

What are you calling "hate filled ranting"? I pointed out that child murder, genocide, and intolerance are bad things. I hope you don't disagree with me about that. I was not saying that all Christians do those things. I was pointing out that the Bible does say that god does those things. If you don't like what the Bible says, please don't get mad at me - I didn't write it.

Secondly - yes, I have heard Christians say things much worse than anything I've written here. Though that is unimportant, since there are vicious people in any religion.

SD - please look at what your response was to my post about those evil things. You defended the Bible, saying to ignore the evil things and accept the perpetrator of them as good. Can you imagine if our legal system were done this way?

"yes your honor, my client, Jeffry Dahmer did indeed kill people and keep their heads in his freezer. However he is a volunteer at the local soup kitchen, so we should look at that only, and ignoring his brutal crimes, let him out."

I personally find it appalling that ANY belief system can convince someone to defend the slaughter of children, civilians and women. The fact that some people can be convinced to apparently ignore or subvert their conscience like that makes that belief system look all the more immoral.

The high/low context argument is even worse. Here again is someone taking vicious things, like the public slaughter of a family member or killing an entire ethnic group, and saying that such evil is OK. Those things were just as evil 3000 years ago as today, and saying that someone killing an infant to show their power is a good thing only shows that the speaker has no moral backbone. It would be nice if people had always been cutsy and good, but they haven't, and aren't today. Hiding from the viciousness that humans are capable of will not help to prevent it. For that we have to stand up for kindness and love without flinching or trying to apply a fluffy candy coat to everything we see.

My two cents.

[David19]

Sure. They were raised with and are familiar with CJM, as I mentioned above. What else are they going to do? It can be too scary to strike out on your own, perhaps easier and more familiar to just selectively ignore parts of your own religion, and continue to support a church that preaches against who you are. That's getting harder and harder for Catholics, the new Pope is even more fundamentalist and anti-gay than usual.

I am very familar with all the evidence we have about early Christianity, and it doesn't include that to my knowledge. I'd really like to see what you are talking about. That sounds like an urban legend to me. Could you please provide some basis to think that might be true?

It may be true that gay Christian's were raised Christian, but that doesn't mean their 'scared' to branch out on their own, anymore than a kid raised Wiccan may be scared of exploring other religions, i still think that Christianity (or Judaism or Islam, etc) can meet the spiritual needs of many people, including LGBT people, but that they don't meet everyone's needs (the same way that Wicca can meet people's needs but isn't for everyone, the same with Kemetism, Buddhism, Asatru, Hellenic reconstructionism, etc).

I will post the links about the early Christian's and gay marriages, but it's more than an urban legend, IMO, anyway, plus also Reform Judaism, at least in England anyway, was the first to perform a gay marriage here, and that doesn't make them any 'less' Jewish, either.

Edit: i've got several links for you, the first one talks about the early Christian's performing gay marriages, http://www.lezbeout.com/ancientgaymarriageoftwomalesaints.htm,

and here's another site you may be interested in, it's a site going through the history of LGBT people, here's the site:http://www.suphawut.com/gvb/gayly/gay_history2.htm and it says:


In 244 C.E. (current era), St. Tarcissus, a patron saint for gay Catholics who died at the age of 13 in the arms of a Christian soldier, was canonized.

So, while the people in the Church say being LGBT is a 'sin', the fact that the early Christian's performed gay marriages and that there is a gay saint says differently.

Also, just wanted to add this site, it's a list of LGBT saints:

http://www.otkenyer.hu/halsall/lgbh-gaysts.html.

[David19]

I have heard those "wicked, fiendish, pagan-slaughtering Christians". Baptists especially, since their so "fundamentalist".

Where have you been, that you haven't ever heard of them speak of such things?

I haven't heard Christian's say those things either, but that's 'cause here in England, we don't get many fundamentalist Christian's (there's a few but even other Christian's think they're crazy), i hope this doesn't sound rude or anything, but just 'cause you may have had a bad experience with Christianity, does it really mean every single Christian is 'bad' or that the religion is 'evil', as the majority aren't fundamentalist.

[PeatBog]

There's alot of "jack Christians", just like there's "jack Mormons", Mormons who go to church maybe once or twice a year, like at Christmas, hardly read the bible, and are basically heathen.

[equinox2]

Davi19 wrote:


just 'cause you may have had a bad experience with Christianity, does it really mean every single Christian is 'bad' or that the religion is 'evil', as the majority aren't fundamentalist.

That's cool to be in England. There the overwhelming majority of Christians are very liberal. Europe too. And both places have hundreds of ancient stone circles to visit too.

And of course, it's good to realized that every single Christian isn't fundmentalist - there are literally millions of liberal Christians.

One point about the majority of Christians. In America, repeated polls from both conservative and liberal sources show that around 60% of US Christians think that every word of the Bible is literally true, and that the earth was created by god 6,000 years ago as described in Genesis. From that and other sources, the majority of US Christians do seem to be fundamentalist. Worldwide the fundamentalist majority is even stronger, since most Christians are uneducated and live in Africa, Central America, and south America. However, for most of us, that isn't the majority of Christians we will meet, since most of us are in developed contries and have liberal circles of friends, etc. So most of the Christians we will meet probably will be liberal and not fundamentalist.


Just the facts, ma'am.-

[WiccanGoddess]

I think the question is worded wrong.

It should ask if Christians are anti-Pagan.

But, then again, either way, it's quite a generalized statement. Not all Pagans feel or act the same way, nor do all Christians.

So, no, I do not think in a whole Christians are Anti-Pagan. I think in inviduality, some may serve to, but not as a whole.

[Sage Rainsong]

They try to claim to be Christian and follow the Bible, but at the same time they stretch and reinterpret the Bible to say things that are often the opposite of what the Bible writers meant. They can either treat the Bible that way – which seems dishonest, or ignore those parts completely. Either way, it seems that they cling to the name “Christian” and "bible", for other reasons, such as their being raised with the name, or the name being popular in society, or the name being old, etc.

I'm sorry equinox but that post seems to be a little insulting and condecending to to liberal Christians. One minute you are praising them and the next you are basically saying that they are not good Christians because they obviously don't know the Bible well enough to know that it's obviously a horrible book full of evil things. You are implying that if they knew about the Bible the way you view it they would obviously dump it as a sacred text. I was raised liberal Catholic and I knew many good liberal christians who knew the Bible very very well. They chose to focus on the Good parts and Jesus' teachings of love and inclusiveness and they accept him as their savior and the son of God. I don't think that they held on to the title of Christian because they were somehow have some emotional problem where they need to "cling" to childhood words or because it's popular. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it almost seems like if a person is not some gay hating, gun holding, fundie republican then they are not really Christians in your mind, just nice ignorant people using the name.

[David19]

I'm sorry equinox but that post seems to be a little insulting and condecending to to liberal Christians. One minute you are praising them and the next you are basically saying that they are not good Christians because they obviously don't know the Bible well enough to know that it's obviously a horrible book full of evil things. You are implying that if they knew about the Bible the way you view it they would obviously dump it as a sacred text. I was raised liberal Catholic and I knew many good liberal christians who knew the Bible very very well. They chose to focus on the Good parts and Jesus' teachings of love and inclusiveness and they accept him as their savior and the son of God. I don't think that they held on to the title of Christian because they were somehow have some emotional problem where they need to "cling" to childhood words or because it's popular. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it almost seems like if a person is not some gay hating, gun holding, fundie republican then they are not really Christians in your mind, just nice ignorant people using the name.

I love your post, and i agree 100% with it :).

[Ryden]

I'm sorry equinox but that post seems to be a little insulting and condecending to to liberal Christians. One minute you are praising them and the next you are basically saying that they are not good Christians because they obviously don't know the Bible well enough to know that it's obviously a horrible book full of evil things. You are implying that if they knew about the Bible the way you view it they would obviously dump it as a sacred text. I was raised liberal Catholic and I knew many good liberal christians who knew the Bible very very well. They chose to focus on the Good parts and Jesus' teachings of love and inclusiveness and they accept him as their savior and the son of God. I don't think that they held on to the title of Christian because they were somehow have some emotional problem where they need to "cling" to childhood words or because it's popular. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it almost seems like if a person is not some gay hating, gun holding, fundie republican then they are not really Christians in your mind, just nice ignorant people using the name.

The thing is, Jesus didn't preach inclusiveness, quite the opposite.

Of course He loves us, I know he does, but most liberal Christians I have come across are accurately described in eqinox2's post...to the point I wonder if they have read the Bible before.

Thinking on it, sometimes pushy Christians make me wonder the same thing...

[equinox2]

Sage Rainsong wrote:


One minute you are praising them (liberal Christians) and the next you are basically saying that they are not good Christians because they obviously don't know the Bible well enough to know that it's obviously a horrible book full of evil things. You are implying that if they knew about the Bible the way you view it they would obviously dump it as a sacred text.

..... focus on the Good parts and Jesus' teachings of love and inclusiveness and they accept him as their savior and the son of God. ..

. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it almost seems like if a person is not some gay hating, gun holding, fundie republican then they are not really Christians in your mind, just nice ignorant people using the name.

Ah Sage, a very fair and honest question. and I, like you, was raised a liberal Catholic.

Yes, I do like liberal Christians. Yes, I do think that if they knew about parts of it, they would dump those parts as sacred text. And as you pointed out, some do exactly that if they know of them. They then "focus on the good parts", while sometimes openly rejecting the bad as the products of human viciousness that they are.

Their view of the Bible is the key to me. Some liberal Christians assert that the Bible is indeed the entirely inspired, holy word of god - and interpret it as needed to fit. This I do see as dishonest or at least misguided. Some liberal Christians honestly agree that there are indefensible and vicious parts - including very large parts - of the Bible, and that these are to be rejected by any person with a moral system based on love.

These are the liberal Christians who are secure enough in their faith to break the canon (list of required books) set by the early Roman church around the time of Nicea.

These are the liberal Christians who have both the courage to reject evil as well as the knowledge to know of the evil in the Bible.

These are the liberal Christians such as we commonly see here on mystic wicks, like Lostsheep and many others.

These are the liberal Christians who take the ideal of Jesus as a reformer and often as a human, while rejecting the misogyny of Paul.

These are the liberal Christians who can truly base their spirituality on love and the many beautiful parts of the Bible without the ball and chain of the rest of the Bible.

So in short - it comes down to a willingness to take the good, while openly leaving behind the bad in the Bible. Someone who does so is still fully a Christian in my mind, just as much as a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Gnostic, a Marcionite, or a Mormon.

Someone who espouses liberal views while still clinging to the idea that every single part of the Bible is good, divinely inspired, and the only source of truth, is either dishonest, misled or uninformed, in my opinion (though still a Christian as much as any other Christian). If you disagree with that last sentence, that's fine, it's just my opinion.

Does that clarify my views, and resolve the apparent contradiction?

See ya, I'll be gone for a couple days-

[Sage Rainsong]

The thing is, Jesus didn't preach inclusiveness, quite the opposite.

Of course He loves us, I know he does, but most liberal Christians I have come across are accurately described in eqinox2's post...to the point I wonder if they have read the Bible before.

Thinking on it, sometimes pushy Christians make me wonder the same thing...

Well what I meant by inclusiveness is that he is supposed to love everyone. I must admit I have a personal biased. My church history teacher in high school was very loving and she would flipped out when she heard people saying anything anti-gay and I liked her. Many christians I know where the people at a soup kitchen who did believe strongly in Jesus. I am sure that they would ultimately want me to become Christian, I proudly wore my pentacle for four years without so much as a talking to. They just felt that it wasn't their place to judge. Perhaps it really is just the area that I live in.

[Ryden]

Oh, ok. Getting it.

[ladymousewitch]

Some non-christians may be anti-christian but to generlize that 'pagans' are anti-christian is rediculas! Not all pagans feel the same way.
So I find your poll useless.

I agree... I for one have a christian family and my soulmate is penacostal... so I say the same thing... this poll is a little pointless.

[LostSheep]

I'll just say that Peacock has manged to achieve the rare feat of saying something rational and intelligent without descending into "they hate us, well i hate them".

There's alot of "jack Christians", just like there's "jack Mormons", Mormons who go to church maybe once or twice a year, like at Christmas, hardly read the bible, and are basically heathen.
Can we get a definitive answer here, i wonder? Does being Christian mean that you follow Jesus, or does it mean you have to follow all the formalised structure, attend church regularly, believe all of the Bible, fit into the mould they want you to? it seems then that I don't fit into any one of those neat pigeonholes.

[Infinite Grey]

I'll just say that Peacock has manged to achieve the rare feat of saying something rational and intelligent without descending into "they hate us, well i hate them".


Me or or Peatbob... I be confuzzled

[LostSheep]

No, i was quoting you and him separately.

I know there's only one Peacock.

[Infinite Grey]

No, i was quoting you and him separately.

I know there's only one Peacock.

sweet, then thank you dude... I wasn't sure as my post was like a couple or more pages back. :hahugh:

[Protagonist]

No, i was quoting you and him separately.

I know there's only one Peacock.
I want a pet peacock that way I'll have all the feathers I ever need.

[Infinite Grey]

I want a pet peacock that way I'll have all the feathers I ever need.

Don't look at me! I bite... HARD! :hahugh:

[Tadrith]

Speaking of peacocks, my ex's parents had a couple. They wandered around harmlessly until Phil took out his big blue VW van. The peacock saw its reflection in the side and would continue to attack its reflection. The only way it would stop is if it was scared away by the dog, or until he got tired of fighting his imaginary opponent. (Phil was not impressed; so many scratch marks on the paint of his baby)

It also liked to wail out in the early morning while standing on the hood of his chevy. Who needs a damned rooster? Twice as big, ten times as loud!

One spring time, particularly windy day at that, the peacock jumped up on the fence, and, wanting to impress the ladies, opened up his tail feathers. Needless to say, the wind caught it and flung him to the ground.

Silly creatures...

You may now resume with your scheduled conversations.

[Infinite Grey]

Silly creatures...


HEY! I resent that!

[LordHelmet]

Um, hold on. It took me a minute to pick my jaw off the floor here – you both must be referring to a different YHVH or something. The God of the Bible does a lot of, well, “unkind” things, such as:


Ordering mass murders of thousands of people, because they happen to live on land he wants. From Ex through Num
Directly killing thousands of children himself – just to “show his glory” Ex
Drowning millions of people, including babies, children, mothers and fathers Gen
Ordering a father to kill, disembowl, cut up, and then burn his son Gen
Ordering the execution of children, and praising & rewarding the murderer when the murderer gives YHVH a basketful of the chopped off kid heads
Making a baby suffer for a week, then finally killing it, because YHVH was mad over something that someone else did
Burning people to death because they burned their incense to him incorrectly
Killing two people for touching the ark, even though they only touched it to keep it from falling over
Ordering that people with other religions be killed because of their religion – oh, and destroy & desecrate their temples too. Ex
Ordering that anyone under his dictatorship who invites someone to worship some other god be publically stoned by their own family. (try to imagine doing that – being ordered to kill your sister, etc)
Commanding that a town be completely killed, except for the virgin girls who are to be given to the blood-spattered soldiers who just killed their families


And that’s just a start. We can look at the specific Bible verses that describe each of those, and others that I didn't mention as well. Of course, all of that is nothing compared to what YHVH does in the new testament, which is torture, for all eternity, billions of people because they aren't Christian, no matter how good a person they are – so Gandhi and Anne Frank writhe in agony forever.

To look at all that (even just the OT stuff) and say “YHVH isn’t that much of a jerk” just boggles my mind. I really wonder what someone would have to do to be a jerk in that case. All of this exceeds anything Hitler did, and I certainly consider him a jerk. I wonder how any rational system of morality can look at this list and say “oh, all that is OK”. I know I can’t.

I have no problem with the liberal Christian who is as appalled by all this as I am, and who is loving and kind of everyone, regardless of religion. My conscience requires me, however, to honestly call a spade a spade, and that means openly condemning things like a god that rejoices in a basketful of child heads.



'Oh but but but he did good stuff to, like be nice to the obediant ones and give people babies.... '

'Oh Oh, Mary and Jesus come from the same bible and their ubber nice...'

'Oh but the bibles full of nice stuff to. '

OK, If I walk into a clasroom with a bunch of healthy organic pies for the kidz, give them a presentation about the dangers of smoking, and then rip three of them limb from limb for for argueing with me (no better yet, make their best friends do it), in front of the entire class... What am I... 'The nice guy with the pie that had a blood lust, hey nobodys perfect!!!'

OK maybe this is a little close to the respect rule... but if you can't see how this picture applies to JHVH in the OT or whats horibaly wrong with the way it does relate... your head is way up JHVH butt.

OK, I respect your belief that 'basket full of dead babie heads' isn't that bad if you respect my belief that believing that means your head is covered in OT JHVH poopy.

Next time someones posts something about how OT JHVH wasn't really that bad of a guy... we who dissagree should simply reply

'ring around the tabernacle
'pocket full of scriptures
'basket full of babie heads
'and we all fall down in worship!

I wanted to put 'ring around the rosery, but that wouldn't be right to good catholics who see OT JHVH for who he is, and because Mary is prett nice it seems.

[LordHelmet]

WOW... everything got quite... hope I didn't offend anyone or hurt anyones feelings. I didn't mean to.

I wonder if I'm on anyones ignore list. Is there a way you can check that?

[equinox2]

LordHelmet wrote:

I wonder if I'm on anyones ignore list. Is there a way you can check that?

I don't know. I haven't posted because I only check every few days, and the conversation had drifted to tumbling fancy feathered dinosaur descendants anyway.

Have a fun day0

[La Fortuna]

Hi all!:wave:

Let's get some perspective on this issue shall we?

The Old Testament is primarily the history of the Hebrews, yes? This is where all the massacres and genocide, etc. are shown to have taken place. The Hebrews were persecuted everywhere they went because they were driven from everywhere they went. They could not find a place to settle without being attacked.

In order to survive, the Hebrews often had to go to war with other tribes.

It is my belief, God did not tell them to randomly slaughter and kill. The reason whole tribes were wiped out, the Amalakites in particular, was because they persecuted the Jews and the Jews feared that if anyone was left alive of the Amalakites that they would retaliate. They wanted no trace left of the Amalakites, they even killed their animals.

There are Jews today, who believe that Hitler was of the Amalakite bloodline.
Yes, I was told this by a Jewish woman whose son is a rabbi.

All of this aside, the New Testament in which Jesus makes his appearance is "New" because Jesus wanted all the people, Jew and non-Jew to love each other and live together in peace. They were to seek the kingdom of God through him because he was for peace and love and turning the other cheek so as not to perpetuate violence, etc. For this (and other thing, money changing, etc.) the Hebrews turned him over to the Romans. They saw Jesus as a rebel against the Jewish faith. They were afraid that if he gained too much sway over people that they could not keep the Hebrew faith intact as they saw it should be. (No offense to the Jews here as this is just history as told in the bible.)

Obviously, all they did was make Jesus a martyr and make one of the largest cults called Christianity proliferate.

The Hebrews, Christians, and Muslims all take issue with pagans. For instance, I went to a Coptic Christian church a few years back. I was told that because I read Tarot and practiced as a psychic that I could not join. I was Kemetic at the time and I still am. However, I had an interest in the church because it was the first church of the Christian faith in Egypt. The literature was full of damnation for the witch, or anyone associated with occult practices

Even if, as a pagan, and I do not consider myself a pagan, one has not had negative experiences with Christians, it is because the pagan has not intruded himself upon the Christian in a way that, to them, is threatening. Yet, I feel as though pagans have been intruded upon more because of their beliefs.

Baptists, no offence, as a rule will aggressively condemn the pagan. Hebrews, equate the story of Saul and the witch with pagans. It has long been forbidden for Jews to seek the counsel of a witch. I was told by a Muslim woman that for Idol worship, I would go to hell according to Mohammed (pbhu), even if I didn't worship the idol per se. I could still go to heaven only if I believed in one God and did not worship the idol as part of my practice.

Moses, a former pagan, set up a shrine early on of a "brazen shining serpent" for the Hebrews to pray to for healing. I am certain, it was not him who said that one should not worship idols. I am sure it was thrown in later as an afterthought of the writer. The commandments that he brought to them, most of them were from the 42 purifications (negative confessions) of the Egyptians. While in southern Palestine, Moses came upon the Midianites and that is when Yaweh was "born" to the Hebrews.

The Midianites were a primitive tribe without any other skills except for farming. They prayed to one god that they had no image for because they were incapable of producing one. Moses decided to let this God go without an image and adopt Him for the Hebrews. Some time after this the bible says that God told Moses to slaughter all the Midianites.

Much of this does not make sense to me and I believe that the writers wrote to support their own agendas.

Regardless, that last sentence is just my opinion, the rest are facts that I have learned from my research.

There is a lot about the Christian faith that I really have an affinity with and when I read the bible much of it sounds as if it came from the mouths of Ancient wise men of Egypt.

What I don't understand, is why we have so much trouble respecting each other on both sides. It helps to have things in context, don't you think? We could go all day pointing out the negatives of someone's religion. Do we not know when we hear something good or the true? Do we have to be like those who agressively persecute? I do not think most of the people on this forum are like that. Am I wrong?

Love to all, :fpraise:

[SilverMaiden]

I don't believe pagans are anti-christians per se. I myself am anti-disrespectful christian.

Meaning...I have no problem with christianity nor it's followers unless they are disrespectful. I've met a lot of respectful christians and a lot of disrespectful christians.

In regards to the disrespectful one, it has nothing to do with their religion it has more to do with the rude nature of the person using their religion as an excuse to be a jerk.

[LordHelmet]

let us not forget the passage in NT about turning brother against sister and father against son and all that. Jesus didn't appear to be getting everyne to get along then.

I don't really think it's the bible thats the problem though, it's the kind of attitude that 'everything in it is true, and everything in it is properly understood when it is twisted to my understanding of it's truth.' It acts as an excuse for some people to be really nice to most everyone, and for other people to let that hatred out. Either way they're hiding behind that belief.

[jcldragon]

It has oft been said that History is written by the victors of wars. The Hebrew Scriptures are uncommonly frank about this, since they not only wrote about everything that they did, but also included their justifications. Everybody has committed atrocities in wars, but most have not been so honest about it. So what we find in the history written by the Israelites, includes the whole spectrum from the most barbaric to the most sublime.

A civilized person does not need to be told that genocide, deception, and naked greed, are just plain wrong. They already know that. People always like to think that everything they do, is entirely justified. AND, people will go to great lengths to prove that what they do is justified... even as far as saying that God told them to do it. People who have been touched by the Divine, know better.

[pawnman]

let us not forget the passage in NT about turning brother against sister and father against son and all that. Jesus didn't appear to be getting everyne to get along then.

I don't really think it's the bible thats the problem though, it's the kind of attitude that 'everything in it is true, and everything in it is properly understood when it is twisted to my understanding of it's truth.' It acts as an excuse for some people to be really nice to most everyone, and for other people to let that hatred out. Either way they're hiding behind that belief.

Jesus was just saying that following him wouldn't be a popular choice, and that you may have problems within your own family. He didn't even put up the barest of resistance when the Romans came for him, and he even healed one after Peter cut the guy's ear off.

[Lovehound]

Um, before I respond, a quick note.

When pluralizing a noun, such as "Christian," it is not necessary to use an apostrophe. Thus, instead of "two Christian's" it should be "two Christians."

The apostrophe should be used in instances like this: "That Christian's halo is slipping." Indicating the halo belongs to the Christian.

OK I HAAAAD to get that off my DDDs because when I am reading something, seeing extensive misuse of punctuation (which sometimes accompanies poor grammar and spelling) really is terribly distracting as I read. It makes me nuts. It really does badly affect my own reading pleasure, and for all I know it might be the same for someone else too. That is why I have never allowed myself to fall into poor writing skills - as a courtesy to the reader.

Enough of that. On to responding to the post.

Yes, I've heard entirely too much bashing, and I have to admit that the Christian-bashing is exactly what drove me INTO Christianity. I was so tired of hearing how awful Christians are, that I decided to go BACK to the Christian faith I grew up in, only with a TWIST.

I consider myself an "episcopagan" now, since I have joined the Episcopal Church. (I technically also have a membership in a Unitarian Universalist church, but I don't really like the liturgy there, so I went searching and found the Episcopalians.)

I was tired of hearing Christians bash Pagans.

I was tired of hearing Pagans bash Christians.

I decided to bridge both worlds and do what I could to indicate that both of these can co-exist peacefully.

The sacrifice Yeshuah makes, that is seen in the wafer and wine at Communion (and in ONE case in the Roman Catholic church, the Host actually turned into human flesh and the wine turned to coagulated human blood - and I would think that anyone who is a witch would be really interested in something like that), is the sacrifice made by the Grain God every autumn. Or the Sun God makes every DAY - rising, setting, rising again.

Fathers Tom and Lee at my Episcopal church probably don't realize I think this way, and I'm not sure it's time to undecieve them yet, but there ya go.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

The sacrifice Yeshuah makes, that is seen in the wafer and wine at Communion (and in ONE case in the Roman Catholic church, the Host actually turned into human flesh and the wine turned to coagulated human blood

Good Lord, did they *consume* it? How very interesting.

[Silver Crow2]

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me." John 14:6.

So, for all of the Christian apologists on this forum - there are the words supposedly straight from the THE MAN's mouth

His way is the only way :)

Three guesses as to how I feel about Christianity, the first two don't count :)

[Harmony Aurore]

I'd really love it, if just once a 'pagan' didn't try and blame all the 'evils' on the Christian's or Jew's or Muslim's, i know that sounds like 'wishful thinking', and i know every religion will have its jerks, but i think 'pagan' religions can at least try and stop being 'anti-Christian'

I'm sure someone has said this already.... But ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Most pagans aren't Anti-Christian. Most pagans don't blame all the evils on the Christians or Jews or Muslims. Where have you been?
It's only a handful of losers who can't take the heat for their own actions who do. Look around you. Most people are fairly tolerant.

[Felidae]

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me." John 14:6.

So, for all of the Christian apologists on this forum - there are the words supposedly straight from the THE MAN's mouth

His way is the only way :)

Three guesses as to how I feel about Christianity, the first two don't count :)

Just playing the Devil's Advocate here (tee hee), but perhaps the interpretation of the verse could be "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Christian All-Father but by me".

In which case it would simply be a statement regarding the tenets of the given religion, and not so confrontational.

Just a thought. No big deal. Just my brain ticking around a bit.

[Silver Crow2]

Just playing the Devil's Advocate here (tee hee), but perhaps the interpretation of the verse could be "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Christian All-Father but by me".

In which case it would simply be a statement regarding the tenets of the given religion, and not so confrontational.

Just a thought. No big deal. Just my brain ticking around a bit.

But ya see, that means you are guilty of reading stuff INTO it that isn't there :)

[Lunacie]

Just playing the Devil's Advocate here (tee hee), but perhaps the interpretation of the verse could be "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Christian All-Father but by me".

In which case it would simply be a statement regarding the tenets of the given religion, and not so confrontational.

Just a thought. No big deal. Just my brain ticking around a bit.

That's what it's meant to me for the last 20 years. I prayed my little heart out and accepted Jesus and was baptized and I still never felt like I had "come to the Father" or that he had accepted me. I left the church and wandered around (spiritually) for a couple of years, then began looking into metaphysics. My teacher was a Wiccan, and the first time I worked with the energies and created a personal shield, a beautiful woman appeared to me in a vision and said, "Welcome home, my child."

...guess I don't need Jesus to come to the Mother, eh? ;)

[omar]

Most pagans are not ant-Christian, but most Christians are anti- Pagan. Just read the news. We are under attack in California, Michigan, New York & in England.

[pawnman]

Most pagans are not ant-Christian, but most Christians are anti- Pagan. Just read the news. We are under attack in California, Michigan, New York & in England.

I think a quick read through this thread proves it goes both ways. Pagans just don't make headlines when they bitch about chrisians.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I think a quick read through this thread proves it goes both ways. Pagans just don't make headlines when they bitch about chrisians.

Which is just as well. The last thing my religion needs is having a bunch of whinging idiots bitching, not only to each other and anyone who'll hear, but the newspaper attached to it.
Seriously. WE DO NOT HAVE IT THAT BAD. When, I ask of you, was the last time you saw a hate-filled email about pagans, instead of Muslims, in your in-box?

[lynx]

People, be calm.... The one main thing to remember is that religion is a state of belief... Those who mock others many times do not understand them. So in point, the person doing the bashing is the one to question NOT the belief... When it comes down to it, it is the thoughts and feelings we hold to ourselves what makes religion. What I see as the sun some see as a God/Goddess. The moon the same and so on..... (to name them all would take sooooo much time...) Christians, Pegans, Wiccans, etc.... so long as you have something to believe in, then all is not lost....

I try to teach my children this all the time. It just gets hard when you allow yourself to fall into other peoples thoughts and convictions against others....

Sorry, it's late and I'm beginning to babble a little.....

Please remember to think twice maybe even three times. Misunderstanding is always the first step to false hate/anger.....

[SteppeDaughter]

I've driven myself nuts for years over this very question on a personal level. Are Pagans prejudiced against Christians? I can honestly say that every Pagan Whatever I've ever met despises the religion (doesn't say much about the circles I move in,does it?),and,sad to say,so do I. I don't hate Jesus, I believe Yahweh/Allah exists, I think Judaic/Christian/Islamic spirituality is as pure and viable as any other, but the_ religions_ do preach hatred toward religious outsiders (there are Old Testament, New Testament and Koranic passages to back this up) even to the point of genocide (the Book of Joshua in particular), and history demonstrates this time and time again. It makes it extremely difficult for me to "forgive" such crimes against humanity, but it is just as difficult for me to pretend that pagan civilizations were any less murderous just to make the Peoples of the Book look worse.

Hating a religion cannot, must not, be as simplistic as hating broccoli, and I think understanding why we hate anything can lead to greater tolerance and a lesser chance of violence. We can't help the way we Feel about things but Reason can keep us from acting it out,or shooting our mouths off.

[Silver Crow2]

That's what it's meant to me for the last 20 years. I prayed my little heart out and accepted Jesus and was baptized and I still never felt like I had "come to the Father" or that he had accepted me. I left the church and wandered around (spiritually) for a couple of years, then began looking into metaphysics. My teacher was a Wiccan, and the first time I worked with the energies and created a personal shield, a beautiful woman appeared to me in a vision and said, "Welcome home, my child."

...guess I don't need Jesus to come to the Mother, eh? ;)


:)

[Silver Crow2]

but the_ religions_ do preach hatred toward religious outsiders (there are Old Testament, New Testament and Koranic passages to back this up) even to the point of genocide (the Book of Joshua in particular), and history demonstrates this time and time again. It makes it extremely difficult for me to "forgive" such crimes against humanity, but it is just as difficult for me to pretend that People civilizations were any less murderous just to make the Peoples of the Book look worse.

Hating a religion cannot, must not, be as simplistic as hating broccoli, and I think understanding why we hate anything can lead to greater tolerance and a lesser chance of violence. We can't help the way we Feel about things but Reason can keep us from acting it out,or shooting our mouths off.

I agree - and by the way, I don't hate Christianity. I am appalled by the religious right, and even more appalled that P A G A N S, witches, and collective other strange folks that post on this forum

IGNORE THE DANGER THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT REPRESENTS.

the religious right represents a big political power block in the United States - this is why they are courted so heavily by the Elephant party.

[pawnman]

Just playing the Devil's Advocate here (tee hee), but perhaps the interpretation of the verse could be "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Christian All-Father but by me".

In which case it would simply be a statement regarding the tenets of the given religion, and not so confrontational.

Just a thought. No big deal. Just my brain ticking around a bit.

Exactly. If you want to be a chrisitan, you have to believe in Christ. There's no way around that. I think sometimes pagans have a hard time with monotheistic religions because they're so structured in their beliefs, while pagans believe a wide variety of things and still consider each other pagans.

[Silver Crow2]

Exactly. If you want to be a chrisitan, you have to believe in Christ. There's no way around that. I think sometimes Peoples have a hard time with monotheistic religions because they're so structured in their beliefs, while Peoples believe a wide variety of things and still consider each other Peoples.

That really isn't what that verse is about.....basically, if you want to know the divine, the only way to do so is through jesus. That is what it is saying.

One Way or the highway (to that dark fiery bad place)

"Not, if you want to be a Christian, you have to do it this way, if you don't, there are other ways"

[pawnman]

That really isn't what that verse is about.....basically, if you want to know the divine, the only way to do so is through jesus. That is what it is saying.

One Way or the highway (to that dark fiery bad place)

"Not, if you want to be a Christian, you have to do it this way, if you don't, there are other ways"

That is the christian belief. You believe, or you go to hell. Tolerance is one thing, but you can't ask them to re-write the central dogma of their religion to your own specifications.

[Felidae]

I just don't take the Christian dogma that personally. I guess it doesn't bother me as much as others. I'm lucky in that I work with a lot of liberal people, and have only had one or two (who are no longer here) look at me in a potentially "witnessy" sort of way, but in the end the work environment shields me from that sort of thing.

Of course, I don't necessarily advertise my beliefs and they havn't asked, per se. However, I'm sure they are as aware of my label as I am aware that one of my bosses is Mormon.

The only recent incident was last Wednesday at Books-A-Million at the checkout lane. There were 3 Vodou titles and the Witches Calendar (sp?) among my purchases and the clerk was a real BITKA, but you have to remind youself that maybe the clerk was just a bitka in general and it was nothing personal.

In sum, I've really not had much trouble with Christians or their beliefs once I left high school. Even down here in the "Bible Belt". So that's why I look at verses and dogma the way I do: non-personally.

[Silver Crow2]

That is the christian belief. You believe, or you go to hell. Tolerance is one thing, but you can't ask them to re-write the central dogma of their religion to your own specifications.

I don't. I am just constantly amazed that other non-christians don't recognize what is, and are actually apologists for it.

@Felidae

You are lucky - actually so am I :) I know folks who are capable and rather non-obtrusive in their outward excercise of their pagan beliefs, who have lost jobs etc. because of it - fired because Xtians complained, etc.

I guess the biggest issue for ME persoanally is meeting girls that don't look at man funny when he says he is Wiccan or follows a shamanistic path....then again, some of them look at me funny no matter what :)

Like I say, I am lucky.

[Felidae]

I don't. I am just constantly amazed that other non-christians don't recognize what is, and are actually apologists for it.

@Felidae

You are lucky - actually so am I :) I know folks who are capable and rather non-obtrusive in their outward excercise of their pagan beliefs, who have lost jobs etc. because of it - fired because Xtians complained, etc.

I guess the biggest issue for ME persoanally is meeting girls that don't look at man funny when he says he is Wiccan or follows a shamanistic path....then again, some of them look at me funny no matter what :)

Like I say, I am lucky.

Yep, I do see where you're coming from!

While your average Christian, or hey, even Secular, woman would probably not know how to react, a Christian or Secular man I told the same thing to is probably thinking I must be really wild in the sack!

So yeah, I see the difference in perspective! :)

[Incendia]

Do I think the People community is anti-Christian?

From a theological standpoint, no. After all, how can we be? Our beliefs are so varied and individualistic, even among the major "branches" of Peopleism. This lack of cohesion and a "true path" should foster tolerance for all faiths. The operative word being should. But then again, there seems to be a lot of infighting within our community.

I think any anti-Christian sentiment expressed by the few within our community (usually with the biggest mouths) is fueled by:

A. Ignorance in general

B. The mass dissemination of "make it as you want it history"...i.e. Things were much better for women back in the old days, because most People cultures were matriarchal and then big, bad ‘ole Christianity had to come along and ruin it...and other such tripe.

C. Bad experiences with the more exuberant and intolerant of the Christian community...i.e. fundies. Or with the general public.

Let’s face it- Mainstream, Joe-Blow public is generally unaware of the neo-People movement. And those who are, get most of their education from Hollywood or crappy web-sites. So why be offended when your co-worker is so shocked and disgusted to find out you're a witch? Oh, it must be because she’s a Christian. :rolleyes:

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I agree - and by the way, I don't hate Christianity. I am appalled by the religious right, and even more appalled that P A G A N S, witches, and collective other strange folks that post on this forum

IGNORE THE DANGER THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT REPRESENTS.

the religious right represents a big political power block in the United States - this is why they are courted so heavily by the Elephant party.

Ah, but see, some of us live in free countries *cough*Canada*cough*

[Underhill]

Are Pagans 'anti-Christian'?

This one isn't.

[David19]

Ah, but see, some of us live in free countries *cough*Canada*cough*

Or, *cough* UK*cough*!! ;), sometimes, i think people are only looking at the American Christian fundamentalists, who are seen as insane by other Christians too (e.g. many British Christians wouldn't want to associate with the likes of the Bible Belt Christians, etc).

The religious right is only 'dangerous' to the U.S., most other countries actually live in the 21st century now (UK now has, basically, gay marriage, a lot of Europe does, i'm not too sure about Canada (anyone know if Canada has it?), etc).

It's kind of funny, some Pagans might say that the religious right is dangerous to Pagans, while the religious fundamentalist probably hate Pagans, their main targets are LGBT people (including LGBT Christians), and the more right-wing, would target Jews and Muslims (especially Jews, as for some reason, fundamentalist consider the Jews the source of all 'evil' and source of all their 'problems').

[_Banbha_]

Or, *cough* UK*cough*!! ;), sometimes, i think people are only looking at the American Christian fundamentalists, who are seen as insane by other Christians too (e.g. many British Christians wouldn't want to associate with the likes of the Bible Belt Christians, etc).

The religious right is only 'dangerous' to the U.S., most other countries actually live in the 21st century now (UK now has, basically, gay marriage, a lot of Europe does, i'm not too sure about Canada (anyone know if Canada has it?), etc).

It's kind of funny, some Pagans might say that the religious right is dangerous to Pagans, while the religious fundamentalist probably hate Pagans, their main targets are LGBT people (including LGBT Christians), and the more right-wing, would target Jews and Muslims (especially Jews, as for some reason, fundamentalist consider the Jews the source of all 'evil' and source of all their 'problems').

Actually the first thing out of Pat Robertson's mouth during 9/11 (the towers were still smoldering) was to blame Pagans and Feminists first, among other groups, OVER Al Qeda even! The attitude is certainly there; though I'm not going to play 'the who those ignorant people hate more' game. That's silly and pointless; just as me hating them would be. Why involve myself in their prejudice? Two wrongs don't make a right. And, I could care less if they hate people like me. It's a complement. :hahugh:

Why not try to understand, instead of constantly criticizing, why some US Pagans are more skeptical, cautious, and not to mention more jaded because of having to deal with Fundimentalist attitudes? That does not make a person anti-Christian. And most Americans who post here are aware things are not as bad in Britian and Canada. Jeesh.

This thread has shown me how few self-identified Pagan's are anti-Christian. That's good news. :)

Just some thoughts.

[David19]

Actually the first thing out of Pat Robertson's mouth during 9/11 (the towers were still smoldering) was to blame Pagans and Feminists first, among other groups, OVER Al Qeda even! The attitude is certainly there; though I'm not going to play 'the who those ignorant people hate more' game. That's silly and pointless; just as me hating them would be. Why involve myself in their prejudice? Two wrongs don't make a right. And, I could care less if they hate people like me. It's a complement. :hahugh:

Why not try to understand, instead of constantly criticizing, why some US Pagans are more skeptical, cautious, and not to mention more jaded because of having to deal with Fundimentalist attitudes?

Maybe there's a problem embedded in the U.S. that's the reason why there are more fundamentalists than in other countries?.

It does seem strange as to why American Christian fundamentalism is strong, but in other countries, fundamentalism is the minority.

I guess having a born again, homophobic Christian as a president doesn't help, but it's interesting to think about.

[_Banbha_]

Maybe there's a problem embedded in the U.S. that's the reason why there are more fundamentalists than in other countries?.

It does seem strange as to why American Christian fundamentalism is strong, but in other countries, fundamentalism is the minority.

I guess having a born again, homophobic Christian as a president doesn't help, but it's interesting to think about.

:lol: Think about it? I live in the US. Search PP forum and see how I've criticised and fought it. I am not one run around waving the American flag. I'm not going to sit back and listen to misinformed judgements about it.

Most importantly though: What on earth does that have to do with the question of Pagans being anti-Christian, other than you avoided my points?

Are you saying Christain fundimentalism in the US has anything to do with Pagans? Maybe just attempting to shift the subject matter around? Sorry, it's not going to work. I've made my point. You can't muddy it with this. :)

[David19]

Most importantly though: What on earth does that have to do with the question of Pagans being anti-Christian, other than you avoided my points?

Or maybe it might be that sometimes threads take other turns.

Oh, and BTW, i wasn't actually criticizing you.


Oh, and it's okay to have strong opinions and rant anti-Christian Fundimentalists in regards to homophobia because that affects your sensibilities. Got it.

Since most Christian fundamentalists are usually going to blame homosexuals or other LGBT people for problems (e.g. even if they see Paganism as a 'problem', they'll draw some BS link to LGBT people (or the more right-wing will do it for Jews)).

[Lunacie]

Maybe there's a problem embedded in the U.S. that's the reason why there are more fundamentalists than in other countries?.

It does seem strange as to why American Christian fundamentalism is strong, but in other countries, fundamentalism is the minority.

I guess having a born again, homophobic Christian as a president doesn't help, but it's interesting to think about.

Excuse me? There are more religious fundamentalists in the US than in other countries? If so, it's only because we have the largest population of any country other than India and China. The whole business with war in the Middle East has been going on for centuries and it's all about religious fundamentalism.

[_Banbha_]

Or maybe it might be that sometimes threads take other turns.

Yes, they do. But you did avoid my points entirely by changing the subject. I am not ignoring your points though. :)


Oh, and BTW, i wasn't actually criticizing you.
I know, it's nothing personal, I was just giving my viewpoint as someone who actually lives here, is critical of it, and has an informed idea as to what it's like.


Since most Christian fundamentalists are usually going to blame homosexuals or other LGBT people for problems (e.g. even if they see Paganism as a 'problem', they'll draw some BS link to LGBT people (or the more right-wing will do it for Jews)).

I'm still not sure what this has to do with Pagans in general allegedly being anti-Christian. Sounds like you want to debate who is the bigger victim. I don't play the victim game. Isn't that's what you've been accusing Pagans in general of doing? Playing the victim to the big, bad Christian Fundamentalists? Sounds like you have some similiar veiwpoints yourself. :whatgives

No more circles for me, I've made my point. I agree to disagree with you as I'm sure you'll disagree with me.

[David19]

Excuse me? There are more religious fundamentalists in the US than in other countries? If so, it's only because we have the largest population of any country other than India and China. The whole business with war in the Middle East has been going on for centuries and it's all about religious fundamentalism.

I meant more Christian fundamentalists, other countries, e.g. you don't get Bible belts in other countries, and also, i think, fundamentalists in the U.S. are pretty much the only ones to have special 'colleges' or something, set up to 'cure' homosexuality' through 'prayer'.

[Zibblsnrt]

Excuse me? There are more religious fundamentalists in the US than in other countries? If so, it's only because we have the largest population of any country other than India and China. The whole business with war in the Middle East has been going on for centuries and it's all about religious fundamentalism.

The US also has more religious fundamentalists - per capita - than any other developed country on Earth by a very large margin, which was I imagine David's intended point. There isn't just a greater volume of them; they're denser, too.

(ba-dump ching)

[Elderbush]

Only if you are only talking about Christian fundamentalist.

[wolf]

Many Pagan do seem to be rather adamantly anti-Christian. I couldn't answer a blanket "yes" on this, however, and selected "other" for your poll.

[Cynyr]

Humans baaaad! We aul go do hewll.

[Lunacie]

I meant more Christian fundamentalists, other countries, e.g. you don't get Bible belts in other countries, and also, i think, fundamentalists in the U.S. are pretty much the only ones to have special 'colleges' or something, set up to 'cure' homosexuality' through 'prayer'.

Thanks for clarifying - since there are as many different kinds of fundamentalist as there are religions.

Fundamentalists in (some) other countries don't try to 'cure' non-believers, they just kill them.


The US also has more religious fundamentalists - per capita - than any other developed country on Earth by a very large margin, which was I imagine David's intended point. There isn't just a greater volume of them; they're denser, too.

(ba-dump ching)

Good pun. ;) But do you have some statistics because I'm not sure that's correct.

[thundersdisciple]

I am not anti-Christian, in fact I feel Christianity is a beautiful religion and I do commune with Jesus Christ on occasion, expecially for help in healing rituals.

I have met a few Christians who get very upset about anything non-Christian. Some have done things to harm Pagans or disrupt their lives. (Examples can be found in Scott Cunningham's book 'The Truth About Witchcraft Today')
And on the other hand I've known many Christians with whom I get along just fine with even when they know I am Wiccan.

So in the end, I'm not anti-Christian, I'm anti-ignorance :)

[Silver Crow2]

Ah, but see, some of us live in free countries *cough*Canada*cough*

now that's funny :)

Of course, you guys have had some recent issues with lawmakers allowing Moslem religious laws to apply in Moslem marriages, etc.....how did that one ever get resolved ? :)

[Silver Crow2]

I think any anti-Christian sentiment expressed by the few within our community (usually with the biggest mouths) is fueled by:

A. Ignorance in general

I love it..claim anyone that diagrees with you is ignorant.

Let me ask you.....

(a) when were you a Christian
(b) were you ever involved with an evangelical or fundamentalish sect
(c) if so, how long
(d) do you have family members that are involved, and who vote based on said fundamentalist beliefs
(e) have you ever actually READ the bible?

This "big mouth" isn't the ignorant mouth in this thread.

I actually know of what I speak.



B. The mass dissemination of "make it as you want it history"...i.e. Things were much better for women back in the old days, because most People cultures were matriarchal and then big, bad ‘ole Christianity had to come along and ruin it...and other such tripe.

I agree with you here......warfare has been going on for thousands of years.

This mythic matriarchal and peaceful society never really existed. Boudica was female....and a warrior.

Regarding one proposed perfect society from way back when...as fond as many of us are of Celtic myth\culture\ancestry....lets' face it, the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons pretty much destroyed it, so obviously, Celtic society had some weaknesses.



C. Bad experiences with the more exuberant and intolerant of the Christian community...i.e. fundies. Or with the general public.

And it is this group that those of us criticising Christianity ARE TALKING ABOUT - it is pagans who lump all criticsim into the "ignorant" camp.



Let’s face it- Mainstream, Joe-Blow public is generally unaware of the neo-People movement. And those who are, get most of their education from Hollywood or crappy web-sites. So why be offended when your co-worker is so shocked and disgusted to find out you're a witch? Oh, it must be because she’s a Christian. :rolleyes:

Because some of us haven't lived totally sheltered lives - I know people who have lost jobs over their beliefs. The coworkers/bosses who were disgusted were fundies.

Hiding your head in the sand and ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I love it..claim anyone that diagrees with you is ignorant.

Let me ask you.....

(a) when were you a Christian
(b) were you ever involved with an evangelical or fundamentalish sect
(c) if so, how long
(d) do you have family members that are involved, and who vote based on said fundamentalist beliefs
(e) have you ever actually READ the bible?


a: Ostensibly from birth till the age of seventeen, when I did my own self-dedication into Wicca. I pretty much stopped going to church at around nine or ten, because it was boring.
b: No, I was christened an Anglican.
c: does not apply.
d: No.
e: Yes, the Revised Standard Edition and the New Revised Standard Edition, as well as extensive browsing in the KJV. The NRSV doesn't read nearly as nicely as the KJV or RSV, however, it doesn't have the randomly italicized words that the KJV does - what's up with that?

And actually, once I did very nearly lose my job because of my religion. I was doing full-time volunteer work at a Catholic school in northern Alberta. Silly me, I wore my pentagram to work the first week, thinking nothing of it. An 'anonymous request' (quite obviously from the principal) was made that I not wear it, I instead dropped it down my shirt out of sight. When one of the people I was living with at the time informed several of the kids at the school that I was Wiccan, 'had a voodoo doll on the altar in my room' (actually this was a Goddess figure I'd made for Imbolc, but if you didn't know what it was, a voodoo doll might come to mind) and that he suspected I was gay. Shortly after this I was frequently mobbed by kids in the hallway asking me stuff about witchcraft and other related topics; one girl told the principal I had told her to 'shut the f**k up and do your work' after she had insinuated I was a homosexual; and there were other issues to boot. The principal never did anything to assist me with these problems after both I and my Project Leader (it's a Katimavik thing) had discussed this with her. She was, I think, absolutely terrified of me; skittering to the other side of the hallway when I was walking by and generally being jumpy in my presence. I had to resist the urge to ask her if she thought I was going to blight her livestock and wither her crops when I was finished with my work there. I never did get a letter of reference there, either, and had to get one from one of the many absolutely awesome teachers who worked at the school.
Aside from the above, I've got to say it was a great place to work.

Now, did I let this prejudice me against Catholics? No. Why? because I can separate the actions of the jackass few from the pleasant many.

In regards to the Muslim marriage laws thing, I haven't heard about that for ages....

[Silver Crow2]

Now, did I let this prejudice me against Catholics? No. Why? because I can separate the actions of the jackass few from the pleasant many.

....

Good. So can I. I do have an issue with the "jackass few" doing harm to someone. I am glad to hear that you apparently came out of your experience undamanged career wise.

If someone would read my original post in this thread, where I said something along the line of "Christians who think their way is the only way are just.... <insert word forbidden by the mods here>" I think a "few" on this forum might learn something :)

[Maggie]

(a) when were you a Christian

From birth in 1952 until the early 90's. I attended church until then although I stopped buying into it when I went through catechism in junior high. Back then I didn't see any alternatives, given the time and the small town.


(b) were you ever involved with an evangelical or fundamentalish sect

Yep. The Lutheran Church Wisconsin Synod is the most fundamentalist sect of Lutheranism. It's rather a stripped down version of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, although it teaches the Pope is the Anti-Christ.


(c) if so, how long

See a)


(d) do you have family members that are involved, and who vote based on said fundamentalist beliefs


Yep. Although my son has ended up an agnostic, my daughter belongs to one of the more liberal branches of Lutheranism, and my husband is a former Southern Baptist. His relatives and mine still tend to vote according to what they believe religion wise, although there are exceptions.


(e) have you ever actually READ the bible?

Yep. I really don't like the New English version, it clangs on the ear although it is easier to understand and probably more accurate in translation.

Everyone can go back and forth on the question but you know what? Pagans will blame Christianity and Christians will dump on Pagans. The perception, after reading in fora like this one and in reading news items about attacks on pagans is that everyone in both camps hates each other. My personal opinion is that in some pagan camps it's fashionable and a bonding element to blame Christians for all evil in the world. In some Christian camps they blame all evil on those who don't believe as they do. Notice the commonality? Everyone Not Like Me is wrong. It gets tiresome.

I doubt very much whether anyone's opinions have been changed by the discussion in this thread. I do believe that there is a strong thread of anti-Christian feeling running through many pagan groups. What is important is how each person deals with individuals of either stripe IRL because those are the impressions actual people are going to remember. I am just as turned off by a born again who insists I am going to hell as by a pagan who insists that all Christians want to start the Burning Times again and reminds me of the Millions of Witches Who Died.

Maggie

[David19]

The US also has more religious fundamentalists - per capita - than any other developed country on Earth by a very large margin, which was I imagine David's intended point. There isn't just a greater volume of them; they're denser, too.

(ba-dump ching)

Thank's, that was my intended point :).

[David19]

Many Pagan do seem to be rather adamantly anti-Christian. I couldn't answer a blanket "yes" on this, however, and selected "other" for your poll.

I think if i could redo the poll, i would make it better, i didn't mean to make a blanket statement about all Pagans, but a tendancy i noticed was that some (and the more vocal, especially the ones that write books) were anti-Christian.

So, hopefully, no one takes offence to that, i did mean some Pagans, not all.

[David19]

Because some of us haven't lived totally sheltered lives - I know people who have lost jobs over their beliefs. The coworkers/bosses who were disgusted were fundies.

Then that's illegal, i'm not American, so i don't know too much about U.S. laws, but i think it's illegal to even ask about religious beliefs, so those coworkers/bosses should have been brought to justice.

But, that said, that's an example of a bigot, not a Christian, they may call themselves Christian, but that doesn't make them Christians, just like Al Queda say they're Muslim, when they're definantly not Muslim (for example, one thing i've read is that the Jihad isn't supposed to be something you wage on others, but yourself, to become better than you are, i think it's an internal war with inner demons).

[David19]

I do believe that there is a strong thread of anti-Christian feeling running through many pagan groups. What is important is how each person deals with individuals of either stripe IRL because those are the impressions actual people are going to remember. I am just as turned off by a born again who insists I am going to hell as by a pagan who insists that all Christians want to start the Burning Times again and reminds me of the Millions of Witches Who Died.

I agree with you, i don't like fundamentalists in any religion, i hate Christians who say me or other LGBT people are 'going to hell' 'cause we're gay or Pagan or whatever, but i also hate those Pagans who'll blame every 'evil' that exists in the world on Christianity and Christians, no one religion is better than others, there isn't 'one great truth' out there, there may be truths, though, but no religion or path is 'better' than another.

[dr_zeus440]

depends who you talk to. talk to me, and ill tell you that it depends on who youre calling pagan, and who theyre calling christian. then ill probably tell you both to stop calling people names because its rude.

some pagans are anti-christian. so the answer is yes. some pagans are christian. so the answer is, ostensibly, no, but at the same time, some pagans are self-hating. its a poser. and this is without even considering the contaminating effect of cross-conversion, i.e. christians becoming pagan, pagans becoming christian. if i were you, id forget about it all and put the kettle on.

[Luminessence]

It really all depends on the pagan. I'm not anti-Christian, and there are a couple of Christians who I regularly talk theology with. I used to be a Christian, and I don't feel like I moved on to something better or got out of a harmful religion; Christianity was good for me at that time, but at a certain point it stopped being right for me. However, there are some pagans who are definitely anti-Christian. I see a lot of Christian-bashing, and it really bothers me.

[Bethra]

Some are some aren't it's the nature of people to have extremists in every belief system.

[Mitsuko]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Christians. I have a good deal of friends who are of that religion. We sometimes even get into theological debates, however, most of those end with everyone falling over in a fit of laughter. Not every pagan is "anti-Christian", some of the biggest complainers get a kick out of the feeling that they are "special" because they say they are a "witch/warlock/wizard" and are persecuted because of it. They get to play the victim, and they enjoy the attention.

[Cyzarine]

It all depends on the person. I know pagans who really dislike Christians and vice versa. I even know pagans that dislike other pagans and Christians that dislike other Christians. It all depends on the individual.

[Lunar Raven]

Some pagans are anti-christian, but certainly not all. As cyz said, it depends on the person..

[RedRaven]

i selected "maybe" because some pagans could possibly be anti-christian. personally what i notice is that the people who bash christians and christianity are either 1) people who are new to wicca (for some reason this give newbies a "my religion is better attitude just because they are doing something different 2) people who were once christian and converted or 3) 1 and 2 together. this is just what i notice but im sure there are other reasons. as for me, im not anti-christian. if someone wants to worship jesus and all that stuff then it doesnt bother me. not every path works for every person. I am however anti-church. lol i tell people if they want to worship jesus go ahead but i tell them not to go to church.

RR

[LordHelmet]

Then that's illegal, i'm not American, so i don't know too much about U.S. laws, but i think it's illegal to even ask about religious beliefs, so those coworkers/bosses should have been brought to justice.

But, that said, that's an example of a bigot, not a Christian, they may call themselves Christian, but that doesn't make them Christians, just like Al Queda say they're Muslim, when they're definantly not Muslim (for example, one thing i've read is that the Jihad isn't supposed to be something you wage on others, but yourself, to become better than you are, i think it's an internal war with inner demons).

That is illegal here. (Unless religion pertains directly to the job, working as a minister for instance.) People can be sued for fireing someone based on religion, creed, race, gender, ect.

However, if someone wants to be a biggot or just a buttwipe, they can fire you for someother reason and it's hard to prove anything without a really expensive lawyer. People get fired for being GLBT all the time here if there's another good excuse.

[maverick9750]

No, not all pagans are anti-Christianity...I just happen to be one of them ones who are :hahugh: .



I dont deny that the christian god does exist....I just happen to hate him (and his religion). I'm ok with people who are christian....until they begin trying to push me to become one of them or they dont shut up about their religion.

my thoughts exactly. I have quite a few friends who are christian, but if they want to stay a friend, they must accept that I disagree with them and leave it at that.

[SnugglePumpkin]

no offense, but the way you typed that was really irritating...
i don't think it's necessary to put 'these things' around every other word.

as for the actual content of your post, obviously you're generalizing. i don't believe that all, not even most pagans are anti-christian.

as someone who was made fun of and ridiculed daily throughout highschool for being pagan, by christians, i am still not anti-christian. i don't even get angry when jehovah's witnesses come to my door.

it was actually other pagans that helped to keep me from becoming angry or bitter because i found other pagans to be extremely tolerable toward christians, it encouraged me to follow their example and work toward inner peace instead of anger.

the only people that seem to be anti christian are young kids, or teens or people newish to wicca/paganism. this is understandable because younger people tend to be less mature and unable to control their anger, or more apt to retaliate. someone new to wicca/paganism might read a lot of misleading articles about how christians stole all our holidays and killed our ancestors, blahblah etcetc.

to generalize and say that all, or even most pagans are anti christian is, in my opinion sort of an ignorant thing to say. yes, you might see a lot of antichristian websites or whatever these days, but that is just because anyone can have a website these days... hell, i had my own website when i was 11 years old :P

it's been my experience that most pagans are actually quite tolerable and peaceful.

[Arion]

I don't think I've ever come across any anti-Christian attitudes in any Pagans i've met (which is few, admittedly). A lot of Pagans will complain about Christians not being very accepting of their religious beliefs, but that's hardly being "against" Christianity. A lot of Pagan women (and men, too) criticize the patriarchal tendencies of Christianity, and many Pagans don't like how dogmatic Christianity is, either. Still, disagreeing with a religion doesn't mean you hate all its practitioners. I haven't heard of many Pagans going on about how Christianity sucks, or if those evil Jesus-lovers don't follow our gods, they're risking their souls. Being in the minority, we should know better than to trash anyone else's religion, since we don't appreciate our faiths not being taken seriously either. Some younger Pagans may say stupid things once in a while, but it's not like they go around telling Christians how ignorant they are, or how they're damning themselves for not honouring "the Goddess".

Christianity by it's very nature is supposed to be intolerant of other religions. Otherwise, what is it that we need Jesus to save us from if Satan isn't trying to fool us will all these false idols? The whole point of the Christian religion is Jesus rescuing people from "false" beliefs (including certain traditional Jewish ones) and bringing us back to God the Father, who is the only true god. If Christianity saw all religions as equally valid, Jesus would be out of a job :lol: This attitude may annoy Pagans, but the majority of us don't hate Christians, we just see them as having a different opinion. The majority of Christians probably aren't anti-Pagan either (or even know what Paganism is, lol), but the outspoken few who do think we're Satan's henchmen give a bad name to the rest.

[PandoraHealer]

My parents told me once that when I grow up, I can be whatever I want to be. That applies to religion as well as any other aspect of life. I'm not anti-christ or anything like that. I'm a member of a group that was actually incoorperated into the state through a Christian church on the understanding that we would promote inter-faith tolerance. which is what I believe in. That means- you are what you are and I am what I am. We don't argue endlessly about it- seeing as how niether of us will be changing our beliefs any time soon.
We agree to disagree on religion and agree that we should not "persecute" eachother for what ever reason- Go beat a dog half to death with a log and bet your a$$ I'll persecute you (procecute you is more likely) but when it comes to religion- let it be.

Thats just my opinion- every one is different and thats just how it should be!!!

BB-PH

[LostSheep]

I don't think I've ever come across any anti-Christian attitudes in any Pagans i've met
I've met few pagans, but i could find an ample supply of quotes to that effect from a quick trawl of the internet, believe me...


Christianity by it's very nature is supposed to be intolerant of other religions. Otherwise, what is it that we need Jesus to save us from if Satan isn't trying to fool us will all these false idols? The whole point of the Christian religion is Jesus rescuing people from "false" beliefs (including certain traditional Jewish ones) and bringing us back to God the Father, who is the only true god.

The "no other God but me" philosophy was a very strong part of Judaism... in a lot of ways, what Jesus actually said revised what Judaism had traditionally taught ...

[Heart of All]

I personally don't think any religion should be anti-any other religion, unless that other religion is harmful to anyone. I think people in general have a habit of looking for the differences in one another rather than the similarities. Not all Christians are closed-minded. Some of them, like my boyfriend, understand that a religious path is just that, and that we all can't know exactly what's true, so why be upset with other people who have a different way of looking at things.

All religions have the potential, because of human weakness, to devolve into radical fundamentalism. I mean, we can complain about the Christians thinking we're all going to hell, or that their fundamentalism is messing up American politics or whatever, but then the Christians can turn around and point to the radical Muslims who bombed the World Trade Center, who can point to the Jews who took over their holy land. But if we go hating on the Christians because we think differently than them, or because their religion teaches them that we're going to hell or whatever, then we're really just doing the same thing we're complaining about them doing.

[David19]

I don't think I've ever come across any anti-Christian attitudes in any Pagans i've met (which is few, admittedly). A lot of Pagans will complain about Christians not being very accepting of their religious beliefs, but that's hardly being "against" Christianity. A lot of Pagan women (and men, too) criticize the patriarchal tendencies of Christianity, and many Pagans don't like how dogmatic Christianity is, either. Still, disagreeing with a religion doesn't mean you hate all its practitioners. I haven't heard of many Pagans going on about how Christianity sucks, or if those evil Jesus-lovers don't follow our gods, they're risking their souls. Being in the minority, we should know better than to trash anyone else's religion, since we don't appreciate our faiths not being taken seriously either. Some younger Pagans may say stupid things once in a while, but it's not like they go around telling Christians how ignorant they are, or how they're damning themselves for not honouring "the Goddess".


I've met few pagans, but i could find an ample supply of quotes to that effect from a quick trawl of the internet, believe me.

I would agree with LostSheep here, the reason I started this thread is just 'cause on a lot of the Pagan sites I've seen and the books, there always seems to be this anti-Christianity theme, or this persecution complex that some people in the Pagan community have.

Personally, I think the people who still go on about Christianity, are the ones who have trouble moving on, they can't just pursue their own path and just respect other ones.


Christianity by it's very nature is supposed to be intolerant of other religions. Otherwise, what is it that we need Jesus to save us from if Satan isn't trying to fool us will all these false idols? The whole point of the Christian religion is Jesus rescuing people from "false" beliefs (including certain traditional Jewish ones) and bringing us back to God the Father, who is the only true god. If Christianity saw all religions as equally valid, Jesus would be out of a job :lol: This attitude may annoy Pagans, but the majority of us don't hate Christians, we just see them as having a different opinion. The majority of Christians probably aren't anti-Pagan either (or even know what Paganism is, lol), but the outspoken few who do think we're Satan's henchmen give a bad name to the rest.

I don't think Christianity, "by its very nature" is intolerant, 'cause really when you look back at early Christianity (when it was a mystery religion), the very nature of any mystery religion is that it's not for everyone, and only for a few, not the many (which some can see as elitism but I don't).

I agree that fundamentalists can put a negative spin on Christianity for some people, but it doesn't for me, 'cause I recognize that fundamentalists are idiots, and you shouldn't even listen to them (it'd be like saying Bin Laden "speaks" for Islam or Muslims).

Personally, I think people should forget what religion people are and keep religion to themselves (that's one of the reasons why I probably will never reveal my religion to others), we should see each other as individuals.

Hope that made some sense, but i'm tired (I've been trying to write my essay :(!, which I should really get back too ;)).

[Nox_Mortus]

Some are, some arent, I'm sort of in the middle, I dont have a problem with Christianity in theory (in fact I'm somewhat of a Jesusist) but I do have a problem with the way a lot of people practice it.

[Whitewolf]

It depends on the individual. I have no problems with Christianity

[Aina]

Um...I think that the reason why some pagan's are anti-Christian, is because they don't really know about Christianity. Just the same, that's why some Christian's are anti-pagan.
Here, let me end the world-wide fighting of religon....

WE ARE ALL RIGHT!!

^_______^



-aina-

[maverick9750]

I don't have a problem with christians, but I do have a problem with some of the dogmas of the religion. one of its fundamental commandments is "go and tell" and the belief that if you aren't for thier god you are against him. out of the 100s of christians that I know, maybe 3-4 of them actually take that to the extreme. so i guess the way for me to put it is I'm fine with christians but can't stand fundamentalists.

[ShadowStalker]

I can't speak for pagans as a whole... just myself.

I don't consider myself anti-Christian, just anti-hipocracy. And let me explain what I mean:

Christian A: "You're going to hell because you aren't a Christian, don't follow the Bible, etc." Person A then proceeds to go out, drink, have pre-marital sex with multiple partners, etc... goes to church on Sunday to "repent", confess their sins, be washed in absolution... whatever it is they believe they're gaining. Repeat this cycle daily/weekly/monthly.

People like this ^^ make me anti-Christian - because they are behaving in a hipocritical manner. (IMO.)

Christian B: "I don't like your actions, don't agree with them, or don't understand your beliefs... but I can respect that they are yours." Person B then proceeds to uphold their moral standards in accordance with their chosen path - not just when it is convienent... but all the time - because that is who and what they are.

That ^^ I can respect. I don't have to agree with someone in order to respect them, but I do expect them to practice what they preach.

So, me? Anti-Christian? Depends on the Christian. I'm an equal-opportunity hater. :)

[Nitefalle]

I voted "Other" because there is no clear cut answer for this question. Just as with anything in Paganism, it depends on the person. I don't have anything against Christianity - on the whole, I think it's a beautiful religion, as Jesus intended it. Do I think it's become skewed and used as a tool of the majority for centuries to warp the minds of the masses? Yes. Was that the original intent? No. The religion itself is fine, but some people do use it as a tool of manipulation and hatred rather than the path to self enlightenment that it is. I don't care for people like that, WHATEVER religion they practice.

[Nitefalle]

I voted "Other" because there is no clear cut answer for this question. Just as with anything in Paganism, it depends on the person. I don't have anything against Christianity - on the whole, I think it's a beautiful religion, as Jesus intended it. Do I think it's become skewed and used as a tool of the majority for centuries to warp the minds of the masses? Yes. Was that the original intent? No. The religion itself is fine, but some people do use it as a tool of manipulation and hatred rather than the path to self enlightenment that it is. I don't care for people like that, WHATEVER religion they practice.

[maverick9750]

I can't speak for pagans as a whole... just myself.

I don't consider myself anti-Christian, just anti-hipocracy. And let me explain what I mean:

Christian A: "You're going to hell because you aren't a Christian, don't follow the Bible, etc." Person A then proceeds to go out, drink, have pre-marital sex with multiple partners, etc... goes to church on Sunday to "repent", confess their sins, be washed in absolution... whatever it is they believe they're gaining. Repeat this cycle daily/weekly/monthly.

People like this ^^ make me anti-Christian - because they are behaving in a hipocritical manner. (IMO.)

Christian B: "I don't like your actions, don't agree with them, or don't understand your beliefs... but I can respect that they are yours." Person B then proceeds to uphold their moral standards in accordance with their chosen path - not just when it is convienent... but all the time - because that is who and what they are.

That ^^ I can respect. I don't have to agree with someone in order to respect them, but I do expect them to practice what they preach.

So, me? Anti-Christian? Depends on the Christian. I'm an equal-opportunity hater. :)


:cheers:

[blueangel]

Speaking for myself, Christians believe what they will, so long as I am left to believe what I want. I just don't understand why they don't always like pagans.

[Venutius]

As a pagan, I actually believe that Jesus existed and that he was tuned into the one-ness that is within all things, I therefore have no problems with true followers of his path, so long as they realise its a bit dated ;o)

But Christianity has come to mean much less about following Jesus than it has come to mean following the dogma of authority, and this is wrong, and I'm sure Jesus would definately agree with me. It is the very thing he railed against - Jesus wanted us to follow our own paths to find our way to the god that is us, not the dogma that we get taught.

[Voyager]

I am Wiccan. I feel everyone is entitled to their own belief. I don't agree with many of the Christian/Jewish/Muslim rules and regulations, but feel that is my own opinion. I would never force my opiniion onto my Christian/Jewish/Muslim friends. I feel hurt that some of my Christian acquaintences think that being Wiccan is devil worship - no matter how many times I explain over and over that the devil is a Christian thing and has nothing to do w/being Wiccan. Then they are equally askance that I don't acknowledge the devil - you can't win w/some people. I have one friend, and she is a dear friend, but is always trying to push her Christian beliefs onto all of us. And even though she loves me, she would drop me like a hot potato if she knew I was Wiccan and practiced magick. For some people, I do not tell them I am Wiccan. When they visit, I pack up my altar and put away all my books. They would just not understand.

[LordHelmet]

I don't think Christianity, "by its very nature" is intolerant, 'cause really when you look back at early Christianity (when it was a mystery religion), the very nature of any mystery religion is that it's not for everyone, and only for a few, not the many (which some can see as elitism but I don't).

I agree that fundamentalists can put a negative spin on Christianity for some people, but it doesn't for me, 'cause I recognize that fundamentalists are idiots, and you shouldn't even listen to them (it'd be like saying Bin Laden "speaks" for Islam or Muslims).

Personally, I think people should forget what religion people are and keep religion to themselves (that's one of the reasons why I probably will never reveal my religion to others), we should see each other as individuals.

Hope that made some sense, but i'm tired (I've been trying to write my essay :(!, which I should really get back too ;)).

Those mystery religions were killed in the Dark ages and nearly erased from history. What of it that is left and is being reborn is found in places like MW here, because this approach to spirituality in general is pagan in the same way Wicca is. The modern christian world is scarcly awear of the existance of such christian movements.

I've talked to quite a few big time christian history and theology buffs who new they're history of the early church through modern times inside out yet barely even heard of the Greek mysteries. The non historian had never even heard of gnostics before Dan Browns topseller. They still don't know what gnosticism is about though, most of the christian history buffs and know it alls still think gnosticism was about the idea that Jesus was a prophet or something.

I've found the christianity that doesn't think that hell awaits those who do not accept Christ as your lord and savior, don't get baptised in his name, or get in on some other technicality like catholic or morman placement as such or something else through christ in some of these places.

1 The pagan/new age community
2 Scam sites and web sites that have little sense to them
3 Anti typical chritsian litterature, like Holy Boold Holy Grail or Da 'Vinci Code
4 The conspiricy theroy world.

2, 3, 4 I've found only hints and traces of things that once were and little of anything currently existing. It's only in the Pagan and New Age community (or maybe in the Zen community) that I can find the non evangelical christianity That sees christ as a version of something bigger or 'a way' as oposed to 'the way'.

Then I haven't really visited Europe, outside of Iraq.

[LadyCelt]

I wouldn't restrict it to only being Pagans. I find resentment from atheists too. I find some of the worst from those without spirituality and tending to blame things on religion. I find some pagans who are anti Christian, but I find it to be more against Christians than Christ. Even if they dont' see my view on Jesus, I don't find the majority hating him.

[~*Sacred*~]

I'm not anti-Christian, but I am anti-ignorance no matter what faith you follow.

[Mitsuko]

I'm not anti-Christian, but I am anti-ignorance no matter what faith you follow.

I love you. *big hug*

[nido]

Ok I will post this again because someone deleted it last time!!! A true Pagan is anti christian fact!!! The dictoinary defines a Pagan as someone who is not christian, jew or muslim!! The original term Pagan comes from the latin paganus. A word the romans used to describe country dwellers that would not convert to christian beliefs but rather clung on to their old beliefs!! Therefore IMO Pagans are not christians in fact they are opposites so Pagans must be anti christian! For the love of Odin why oh why ask such stupid bloody questions?:viking:

Oh and as for Karma power I dont give a shit, Karma and 3fold crap is not for real witches anyway, just another toy for fluffies

[pawnman]

Ok I will post this again because someone deleted it last time!!! A true Pagan is anti christian fact!!! The dictoinary defines a Pagan as someone who is not christian, jew or muslim!! The original term Pagan comes from the latin paganus. A word the romans used to describe country dwellers that would not convert to christian beliefs but rather clung on to their old beliefs!! Therefore IMO Pagans are not christians in fact they are opposites so Pagans must be anti christian! For the love of Odin why oh why ask such stupid bloody questions?:viking:

Oh and as for Karma power I dont give a shit, Karma and 3fold crap is not for real witches anyway, just another toy for fluffies

Well, this assumes just because you aren't one, you oppose them. It's quite possible to just get along with them instead.

[Shield_Wolf]

Ok I will post this again because someone deleted it last time!!! A true Pagan is anti christian fact!!! The dictoinary defines a Pagan as someone who is not christian, jew or muslim!! The original term Pagan comes from the latin paganus. A word the romans used to describe country dwellers that would not convert to christian beliefs but rather clung on to their old beliefs!! Therefore IMO Pagans are not christians in fact they are opposites so Pagans must be anti christian! For the love of Odin why oh why ask such stupid bloody questions?:viking:

Oh and as for Karma power I dont give a shit, Karma and 3fold crap is not for real witches anyway, just another toy for fluffies

When it comes to what people believe in the end who cares what the dictionary says really. What the OP meant by Anti-Christian was most likely "Do you hate Christian"(I'm just guessing though). But just because your not Christian doesn't mean you have to be Anti or against them. And the thing is your first post was most likely deleted because your calling it a stupid question, which is rude, every one here tries to be nice, I don't really think your helping your case.
Not sure if you read them or not, but the rules of this Forum are your friend.

[LadyCelt]

With the post about it meaning Anti-christian: I don't get how its anti Christians. It may be opposed ot Christianity and certain beliefs within it, but I don't see it as bieng anti Christians in definition. I also refuse to see anyone who is opposed to Christians as representing all Pagans, just as not all Christians give people hate and judgement either.

[Rainbow]

I know there are like a billion posts already, but I'll post anyway because it's an issue I've often encountered.

1. I do find a great deal of anti-Christian sentiment and behavior in Pagan religions. This does not mean that all Pagans are anti-Christian, but there is a lot of it. In addition, there is a lot of mean sentiment against certain Pagan religions, Wicca in particular. I think both of these are sort of "fashionable" in some circumstances.

2. Some of the people who are vehemently anti-Christian are so because they have had very bad experiences with Christianity. A lot of them have not and are just copy-catting what they think other Pagans want to hear (stories of bigotry and persecution toward them). Personally, I went through a phase where I was definitely the latter. Every little thing a Christian said to me I would take offense to. A great deal of the time they weren't even saying anything bigoted.

3. Main point: I think there is a sort of perception amongst those Pagans that are anti-Christian that their bigotry is somehow "different" or "deserved" because of the way that bigotry manifests or why that bigotry exists. It is assumed that Christians deserve bigotry because so many openly believe Pagans and others go to Hell, but that Pagans don't deserve bigotry because they (as a generalization) don't believe in Hell. See, it's interesting though, because when you really get down to it a lot of the statements made by both are absolutely equal as far as ethical standing. It is no less ethical to say "You are going to Hell because there is only One God" than it is to say "The threefold law is going to get you because you preach there is only One God." Divine punishment for having different beliefs. Or even if you scratch out the divine punishment, you are saying that somebody is wrong or bad because their beliefs are different from yours.

Personally I stopped giving a flying funk if somebody simply believes I'm going to Hell, because the only real excuse for being offended by that is secretly believing in it.

[Athena-Nadine]

Ok I will post this again because someone deleted it last time!!! A true Pagan is anti christian fact!!! The dictoinary defines a Pagan as someone who is not christian, jew or muslim!! The original term Pagan comes from the latin paganus. A word the romans used to describe country dwellers that would not convert to christian beliefs but rather clung on to their old beliefs!! Therefore IMO Pagans are not christians in fact they are opposites so Pagans must be anti christian! For the love of Odin why oh why ask such stupid bloody questions?:viking:

Oh and as for Karma power I dont give a shit, Karma and 3fold crap is not for real witches anyway, just another toy for fluffies

2. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster. Calling someone "neocon filth"/"Liberal traitor"/"Fluffy bunny"/"idiot"/"dumbass"/"moron"/"crackpot"/"conservative arsehole"/"big loser", actually, any name-calling whatsoever is not a refutation of an idea, it's a verbal (yah, yah... typed, written, etc) attack of another member of this community and it will not be tolerated. Notice that we are talking about verbal attacks between members. You are free to call, for example, George Bush... a big loser, until the time comes when Mr. Bush joins the community. Then he must be respected like every other member. Also, no condescending stuff. Calling someone sweetypie, honeybunch, hun, missy, might just be the way you talk, but it can also imply a condescending tone. We have no way of knowing which way you are using the term... so if you are addressing someone directly, just use their username.

3. Racism, sexism, age discrimination, the outright bashing of a path or religion, race, etc is unacceptable. No hate speech is allowed on Mysticwicks in any form. Debating the tenets of a religion is one thing... calling all Christians evil or saying that all Pagans are going to hell is not allowed. Proselytizing is not allowed in any form. No conversion or 'witnessing' is allowed. We are not here to spread our various religions. We are here to be friends, love and respect each other, and most importantly... learn. Tolerance is key. All religions and Paths are welcome here providing their tenets do not violate any laws or our rules. Calling someones religion "false", no matter how wrong or silly it may seem to you is not allowed. Debating 'races' is not allowed.


I suggest you go and read the rules of this site, as you agreed to follow them when you became a member.

And I just looked through this thread. No one deleted any post by you. And if an admin had done so, reposting it would also be in violation of the rules.

[nido]

I most certainly did not agree to anything that said I had to agree!
Ok put this another way Nasty Mr Roman walks in says you gotta play his way, you refuse and he calls you a Pagan and goes on to kill your teachers and priests. Now if you follow that would you be anti christian! That is the story of events roughl according to the Romans not the Pagans. Fact Pagan comes from the Latin Paganus!!!
Thinking about it you probably would love them wouldnt you? Kind of proves my point!!!:yayah:

[Athena-Nadine]

I most certainly did not agree to anything that said I had to agree!
Ok put this another way Nasty Mr Roman walks in says you gotta play his way, you refuse and he calls you a Pagan and goes on to kill your teachers and priests. Now if you follow that would you be anti christian! That is the story of events roughl according to the Romans not the Pagans. Fact Pagan comes from the Latin Paganus!!!
Thinking about it you probably would love them wouldnt you? Kind of proves my point!!!:yayah:
12. Public discussion of moderations, admin modes, and 'mol' modes is not allowed anywhere on the site except in the grievance forum. Please read the guidelines for the grievance forum below. If you violate the rules outlined here then you will be moderated. It serves several purposes, of which the most important is getting threads back on track and showing real examples of these rules in action. This goes for anything... don't even quote a moderation and say 'Thank You', as some members might see that as a slap in the face. It's not worth it! Use a karma poke instead. No public discussion of bannings is allowed and we will NOT discuss the banning of one member with another, so don't ask!

[maverick9750]

bold is mine.



2. Some of the people who are vehemently anti-Christian are so because they have had very bad experiences with Christianity.

I confess, I was ran out of a catholic church.

Every little thing a Christian said to me I would take offense to. A great deal of the time they weren't even saying anything bigoted.

that I have never had a problem with, as I went to catholic high school as an agnostic, and spent the whole time debating theology with a jesuit.

3. Main point: I think there is a sort of perception amongst those Pagans that are anti-Christian that their bigotry is somehow "different" or "deserved" because of the way that bigotry manifests or why that bigotry exists. It is assumed that Christians deserve bigotry because so many openly believe Pagans and others go to Hell,

I do have a prejudice in that I expect to recieve it


but that Pagans don't deserve bigotry because they (as a generalization) don't believe in Hell.

I'm not sure I follow this one.


See, it's interesting though, because when you really get down to it a lot of the statements made by both are absolutely equal as far as ethical standing. It is no less ethical to say "You are going to Hell because there is only One God" than it is to say "The threefold law is going to get you because you preach there is only One God." Divine punishment for having different beliefs. Or even if you scratch out the divine punishment, you are saying that somebody is wrong or bad because their beliefs are different from yours.

I couldn't agree more, bigotry is bigotry.



Personally I stopped giving a flying funk if somebody simply believes I'm going to Hell, because the only real excuse for being offended by that is secretly believing in it.

:cheers:

I do believe in it, I just think it is one place of many, and if I allow him to have any influence in my life, that he may find a way to send me there.




I spent 15 years studying christian theosophy, and I came to the decision that I have a really big issue with the basic philosophy of the religion, and it is within that philosophy that is the heart of thier god.

I don't have a problem with christians at all (other than fundies who won't leave me alone) my issue is with thier god, its a personality conflict.

[Rainbow]

I spent 15 years studying christian theosophy, and I came to the decision that I have a really big issue with the basic philosophy of the religion, and it is within that philosophy that is the heart of thier god.

I don't have a problem with christians at all (other than fundies who won't leave me alone) my issue is with thier god, its a personality conflict.

I don't particularly like the basic worldview of Christianity, but as far as taking strong offense to another's beliefs about me, as negative as they may be, for me would be in a sense admitting that I fear they may be right. Somebody believing I am going to go to Hell really does nothing to me. That's not to say that I take kindly to harassment, lying about my religion and lifestyle, or political lobbying designed to strip my right to practice as they do, but those are interferences with my life and happiness, a belief is not.



but that Pagans don't deserve bigotry because they (as a generalization) don't believe in Hell.

I'm not sure I follow this one.

I was explaining one of the reasons I feel certain Pagans feel that it's OK a Pagan to preach to or be bigoted toward Christians while Christian preaching and bigotry toward Pagans is not right (whether they use that wording or not). The difference isn't the correctness or incorrectness of the faiths themselves, but what the faith is saying about the particular Pagan. Thus, if a Christian says a Pagan is going to Hell, it is bigoted; but if a Pagan tells a Christian that the Christian is going to have bad karma or whatever else, it is not bigoted. That makes no sense, but I feel it's one reason there seems to be so much unopposed anti-Christian sentiment in a community which claims to be tolerant of all faiths.

It goes both ways, of course. I'd just as easily get annoyed by a Christian who claims, say, that a coven should not be able to perform public rituals but that a Christian should be able to preach in a schoolyard.

[LostSheep]

hello everybody.

i wonder if, since a lot of the differences in opinion seem to revolve around the idea of "hell" and whether or not certain Christians have a right to impose their views of it on others , maybe there might not be completely irreconcilable differences? I mean, "hell" is generally thought of now by mainstream Christianity, i think, as being separation from God, rather than the whole business with little devils with toasting forks and the like, and "heaven" is being in the presence of God, and i wonder if that might be totally incompatible with ideas of karma and reincarnation - that good karma helps you move closer to the ultimate truth, or whatever you want to call it, while if you accumulate bad karma then you'll move further away from the "truth", and so on? Maybe the most fundamental difference is really that the standard view is that you only have one life, and that "heaven" is that you move into the company of God.

ok, sorry to interrupt, back in my box.

[maverick9750]

I don't particularly like the basic worldview of Christianity, but as far as taking strong offense to another's beliefs about me, as negative as they may be, for me would be in a sense admitting that I fear they may be right. Somebody believing I am going to go to Hell really does nothing to me. That's not to say that I take kindly to harassment, lying about my religion and lifestyle, or political lobbying designed to strip my right to practice as they do, but those are interferences with my life and happiness, a belief is not.

I agree with you here, although I feel that in a close personal friendship, thier beliefs may cause problems, because I have never known a "true" christian that didn't pray for souls to be saved, and there is no difference to speak of between a prayer and a spell, creating a conflict of wills on a subtle level, with possible divine intervention. so anymore, I tend to shy away from christians that I can sense a magickal presence to, they tend to get what they pray for.

[Xander67]

absolutely not!

but then again, religious descrimination is not subject to any one particular religion or path...

I believe what makes a person anti- anything is what is in thier own heart not thier religion.

[ajc2184]

I see myself as being an old school Pagan and I am certainly anti- christianity, however I am not nessecarily anti-christian, I will respect the views of anyone that repects my views, what does get my back up is when I politely state what my beliefs are and people still preach at me! I feel this shows total lack of respect.
Hey a few days ago I even went to my local RC church, told the priest(ess), she was female, that although I was a Pagan I respected them for flying the English flag on our patron saints day! You know what we shook hands and she thanked me for taking the trouble!
Respect earns respect.

[wolf]

Hey a few days ago I even went to my local RC church, told the priest(ess),

Do you mean a CofE church? The RC's don't have female clergy.

[ajc2184]

Well it was certainly a RC church, she told me that the priest was at the main church in the area and she is in charge when he is not there, so I assumed wrongly in this case that she was clergy! I didnt realise they were still sexist but the point of the story still remains, I respect people who respect me.

[LordHelmet]

Well it was certainly a RC church, she told me that the priest was at the main church in the area and she is in charge when he is not there, so I assumed wrongly in this case that she was clergy! I didnt realise they were still sexist but the point of the story still remains, I respect people who respect me.

Sexism in RC is alive and well. Women can be nuns, ... that's about it.

[patch]

I am not anti christian in any way AT ALL.
I'm anti-person. If a person is horrible who happens to be christian, then whatever, but I don't hold it against the faith.

I fact, I've been mistaken for a christian before because I always defend them. xD

[WitchyLady777]

Admittedly, I have some real theological differences with the one Jeshua, commonly called Christ. Some of his teachings I like and respect, I feel they're universal, others I feel really have little if anything to do with me as a Pagan person.

I don't think he meant to make a new religion, but rather to reform the one he was in and maybe to invite others, those his faith considered "gentiles" to share in it if they so wished. I do think he viewed himself as the Jewish Messiah, and that he died according to his beliefs, but I'm not a Jew, and while I recognize what he did as the ultimate in love and sacrifice, I don't personally think of him as my "savior" et all.

What has been done in his name over the 20 odd centuries since he walked this earth, some of that is truly appalling, but many of the same things have also been done by Pagans to Christians, that's history, and I won't just conveniently forget it happened because it's too hard for modern Pagans to deal with.

Christianity as a religion can be truly annoying. The way some Christians practice it it is often an elitist and judgmental faith. The same though can also be said for Paganism, and in particular for modern Wicca. One of the reasons I finally decided not to call myself Wiccan per se was the elitist attitude I saw arising in a lot of the newer generation of Wiccans. There are a lot of good folks in Wicca, just as there are a lot of good Christians out there, but there is also this very conservative element growing among Wiccans, and it's members, to me, they're are looking a LOT like the born again, also conservative, evangelical Christians they so despise. To me, it's just the same stuff, the same ideas, it's just repacked in Pagan language.

These are the rules. This is the right way. You either do it this way, or you are not properly Pagan/Wiccan etc. If you practice this way versus that way well, you're not really entitled to call yourself a Witch, are you?

Sorry, I don't mean to criticize all Wiccans here, but I've been a practicing Witch for a LONG time now, and while a lot of what I am seeing now in Wicca is progressive and accepting, a lot is also NOT, and while I understand that maybe it's just the "growing pangs" happening, as with any religion, some of what I am seeing is really bothering me because it so mirrors what I didn't want to see Wicca becoming as the religion aged into the mainstream.

In the end I think it's all a question of being part of the majority. When new religions start they are often small but seem threatening to the more established ones. As the new faith grows the other religions get nervous about losing followers to it and persecution begins. Sooner or later though the new religion goes more mainstream and people start relaxing a bit, and the persecution thing gets to be less and less of a problem until one day the time comes when the newer religion gets mentioned and it's not even worth a shrug, it's become so common to think of it as being there.
There was a time when the Pagans were in control. Then along came Judaism, Christianity etc. Soon the Pagans were in the minority and they started to be the ones being persecuted instead of being those doing the persecuting.

Now, here we are 2000 odd years later, Christianity et all are dominant, but Paganism is once again on the road to becoming a mainstream religion and of course you have folks in the other camps who are not going to be happy with that fact.

As a Pagan, there are two ways I can handle it.

I can either bash and persecute the Christians et all as some of them would bash me, or I can simply realize that it's a natural reaction to another religion coming in and disturbing what they see as the status quo and go from there, working to educate, inform and do my best to make peace whenever possible.

I can work to fix the problem, or I can become the problem...

I don't believe in a lot of what most modern Christians do. That doesn't mean I have to see Christians as my natural enemies. History teaches me that doing that will only lead to bloodshed, and that's just not the way I want it to go this time...

I feel I can agree to disagree.

That is the way to open dialog, to understanding, to peace.

Bottom line, I think modern Pagans should lead by example, not simply fall back into the more aggressive ways of our Pagan ancestors or unwittingly imitate those who would mess with us.

We can do better.

The less "bashing" going on the better it will be for all of us....

MHO

[Nightlady]

Some pagans are definitely anti-christian, but most are not!! Thats my take on it anyway...

[Rina]

Some Pagans are anti any particular one of the mainstream religions due to personal experience. There is very little in actual Pagan philosophy or practice which is specifically "against "Christianity, or any other religion.
The beliefs touch in places and clash in others, but there is nothing to say that pagans should disrespect any of the other religions in such broad terms.

[Whitewolf]

It depends on the pagan. Some are, most aren't.

[aluokaloo]

depends on the person we've got plenty of bigots in our ranks.

[aluokaloo]

Some Pagans are anti any particular one of the mainstream religions due to personal experience. There is very little in actual Pagan philosophy or practice which is specifically "against "Christianity, or any other religion.
The beliefs touch in places and clash in others, but there is nothing to say that pagans should disrespect any of the other religions in such broad terms.

that should be the same for all religions and atheists not just us, if only it weren't such an impossible pipe-dream

[Solya]

It all depends on what kind of pagan and what kind of Christian we're talking about here. :smile: Some pagans really get upset with virtually anything that reminds them of Christianity, whereas others don't mind at all if they're confronted with Christians or the religious system behind them. Some Christians are convinced of the fact that all pagans are evil psychopaths, whereas other Christians simply don't care either way for as long as the pagans don't attack their beliefs.

Yes, the two clash on more occasions than one. Does that mean all pagans are anti-Christian? Does that mean that all Christians are anti-pagan? Of course not. You have to look at the individuals behind the spiritual/religious antics of the groups they belong to.

[Denikke]

I've often been called anti-christian. I personally feel that it's an inaccurate judgement, but I can understand that I may come across that way.

My father (who I don't live with and actually only MET for the first time a few years ago) is VERY christian. If it's in the bible then it MUST be indesputable fact. ANYTHING that has ANYTHING to do with something bad in the bible is automatically bad etc etc etc. He is, what I often refere to as, a bible thumper. To me, this means someone who is completely closeminded and if it's in the bible then it MUST be true and if it's not in the bible then it's straight from the mouth of satan. This is also someone who will try and cram their religion down your throat and will use ANY opportunity to tell you that you're evil, a satan worshipper, and that you're going to hell where you'll burn for eternity. This is my father in a nutshell.

I'm sorry, but ANYONE who tells me that I'm a horrible person and am going to die a horrible death and burn in a horrible place for the rest of eternity ( and all the other terrible things you can think of) and that I deserve it just because I believe differently from them, to me, that just means that they have a LOT more lifetimes to pass through before they learn the truth of their Path, whatever that Path happens to be.

So yes, christians like that, like my father, I DO have a problem with. I also have a problem with the history of christianity, the conversion tactics used on many different people which often included the thought and practice of "convert or we'll torture you until you do and if you don't then we'll kill you". On that same note, I also have problems with what the Nazi's did with the Jews and other minorities, and I have problems will ALL forms of mass murder, genocide, and killing in general. My beliefs in this are NOT limited to the mistakes that the ancient christians made, but to what was done, no matter who did it. If Pagans had done what Christians had done in the name of their religion, well, I'd have the same problems with that.

On a different note, I have no problem with people who quietly wear the cross and believe, or those who are open minded in their beliefs. My older cousins are Catholic. They are very devout and very religious. BUT you can have a perfectly reasonable conversation with them about religion, your own, theirs, and any other. I also have no problem with Jehovah Witnesses when they are only doing what their religion tells them to. It's when they won't go away, or start harassing that I draw the line. The SAME line I draw with anyone else of ANY religion or of NO religion at all.

I hold the same expectations of human decency from a christian that I do from anyone else. If they cannot meet those simple expectations, then yes. I have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with the religion, but I DO have a problem with how some people choose to interpret that religion as an "ok" to attack me and others of different beliefs. In my experience though, christians seem to be the more "in your face, shove my beliefs down your throat" type of people, although I've met many nice christians, and so I may seem to single christians out more than others. I don't do this on purpose, but they seem to be the majority (if not by much) of those who cause problems in my life by being in my face. There are a LOT of christians out there, the more people there are, the more of those will have a bad attitude. Just like out of a hundred people, maybe 20 will have cancer. But out of 100,000 people, if the same stats applied, 20,000 will have cancer. It's only 20%, but on a large scale, that's a LOT of people. (Oh yea..just want to make sure I mention that those *cancer* stats are totally made up..lol...just using it as an example)

There are always gonna be people who like to make things difficult for others. It doesn't matter where they come from, what race they are, or what religion. They ARE there and they will never go away. You just gotta learn to deal with the people with the bad attitudes and learn not to judge the good people on the basis of the bad.

Merry meet and Merry part
Denikke

[BlueSage]

to be able to answer truthfully to this question (and remain unbiased) you would have to "check" the communications/daily minglings between christians and pagans.

unless they are a church leader or someone new to the christian faith they may try to steer you to christianity in fear you could die tomorrow and meet the Debil himself.

on the flipside, most pagans were christians at one time in their life. (don't belive me? look how many prior protestants and catholics are here lol)

so already pagans got a gist of what christianity is and so they can't use the "not knowing" bs when they try to combat a christian in an arugement or daily practices.

so that covers confrontation and arguement. next is the day to day topics.

when a pagan discusses with a christian various topics he/she always gets to the gist of it first which may make a christian restless. "did jesus die on the cross...did you SEE it?" (a terrible mistake made by a pagan when they KNOW FULL RIGHT that the christian faith is on faith when your path is electic which is even less credible then anything.)

[BlueSage]

I've often been called anti-christian. I personally feel that it's an inaccurate judgement, but I can understand that I may come across that way.


That's a loaded statement.

either 1) you don't mind being called anti-christian. 2) you don't have the willpower to change what you think the reasons may be that they think you are christian. 3) you just don't care.

[LibraMoon]

Im not anti-christian as such, I believe anyone can believe whatever they want.. but I do have problems with the bible.

[TygerTyger]

In theory I should not have a problem with Christianity, but practice has shown me that there are very few genuine Christians, as in people who actually practice the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I have come to consider organized religions as enssentially powerbases for people who are much less interested in the truth than they are in controlling other people. That said, I beleive that we must find our own way and I try to be tollerant towards everyone.

[DracoJesi]

In theory I should not have a problem with Christianity, but practice has shown me that there are very few genuine Christians, as in people who actually practice the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I have come to consider organized religions as enssentially powerbases for people who are much less interested in the truth than they are in controlling other people. That said, I beleive that we must find our own way and I try to be tollerant towards everyone.

this is exactly how I feel, oh, and I love the AV :)

[Mesektet]

I'll throw my vote in the "maybe" hat. I find that it comes down to a case by case basis as I have seen. I myself have found more atheists ( which I refer to as naturalists) are more "anti-christian" then the majority of pagan-claiming people that I have interacted with. Sure there are the young'ins who like to rant and rave about Falwell, or the 17th century Congragationalists, or even, ugh... "The Burning Times" but for the most part when there is a hostility towards the Abrahamic faiths I've to recognize it as almost a kneejerk reaction rather than any deep-seated hatred.

Are there pagans that hate christians? Definately.
Are there pagans that hate christianity oh the whole? Most Definately.
But like all things in this wondrous universe, its all subject to change.

[Marcel]

if churchianity christians look at their roots, they will find paganism.

the Jesus stories were borrowed from earlier pagan stories like Osiris etc.

Jesus was not about churchianity. His path was contrary to the "establishment" path.

Jesus was a good witch. His Mother Mary was also a good witch. Divine. Both are earlier pagan stories.

the messages are pagan and ageless

believing in the Jesus and Mary stories does not necesarrily make a person anti-christian. Many churchianity people are anti christians. they do NOT try to follow the message of the stories.

[Marcel]

For many millenia humanity has been known primarily as "man" (and masculine Force) and man has worshipped a strictly male diety. This God of Man is the embodiment of a Masculine Force that is Uncontrolled Power and Strength. The God of the Old Testament was Fierce and All Powerful. Yet this God of Man is also a God of unconditional love and compassion. In the Christian world, Jesus was the embodiment of this Love and Compassion (more like his mother, Mary, wasn't he).Uncontrolled Power and Strength without the Balance of Love and Compassion is counter to Life. The Fierce and All Powerful God of Man has ruled with an iron fist and we now have a world filled with violence, hatred, religious strife, prejudice, intolerence, and lack of sufficient resources for all (especially where women are concerned). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is not the direction we want to continue heading if we are to continue as a species.

[Amanda Mitchell]

I can't speak for other Pagans... but I personally am not anti-Christian
(unless and until they start to shove their religion down my throat and/or try to "save" me.

[Deinarious]

I personally am somewhat anti-Christian, because I have had way too many bad experiences with Christians of all shapes and sizes, some of whom I'm related to, so it hurts even more for me to say that. I do acknowledge that Jesus did exist in the Middle East, but he was not the Son of any Divine Power.

He was a Reiki master and a philosopher. Nothing more nothing less. If you read up on a certain Reiki book (not sure which one.) it will say such things. I myself don't practice Reiki, but hey, Jesus being a Reiki master is much more logical than saying he's the son of a God.

Also, his birth is technically something impossible for anything that is not a lizard, fish, or microscopic organism. And that would be parthenogenesis (virgin birth). You can thank my awesome biology teacher in my senior year of high school, Mr.Klemenok for that. It goes to show that science is right once in a while.

If my approach to saying all of this is...somewhat offensive or controversial, let's just say you should now know that with some metaphysical things I still apply science to tell the truth from the lies. And Christianity is one of them.

Speaking of science, don't get me started on Scientology...In my opinion that's the biggest rip off since Bonny and Clyde...

...

What?