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David19
July 4th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Something i've noticed from various sites and books is that people will always complain about Christianity and Christian's (or Jew's or Muslim's, etc). They seem to think that every single 'problem' they face is the result of Christianity or Christian's and the 'persecution' they face (yet, IMO, maybe they should go to Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc to learn about true persecution and suffering).

It also seems that some 'pagans' will deliberatly go 'out of their way' to insult Christian's and then use that as an 'example' of 'persecution' (i've seen some people call it 'Christian-baiting'). It also bothers me when some may say they 'tolerant' and are 'polytheist' and believe in all the gods, yet refuse to believe that Yahweh exists and some will even bring out 'proof' that Jesus 'didn't exist', and call people who say he 'did exist' 'liars' or just 'fundamentalist historians' (and yet they'll also bitch when someone 'criticizes' their religion e.g. take some Wiccan's who don't like Hutton 'cause he 'destroys' some of their 'favourite theories' about a 'real 'pagan' religion that 'survived' the 'big, bad Christian's', etc or other 'pagans' (not just Wiccan's) who'll complain when someone brings out 'new' evidence that the culture they're reconstructing and admire may not have been all that 'great', that human sacrifice did take place (as it did in every religion, though, including Judaism), etc).

For example, I was on Isaac Bonewits site and was reading through some articles (a lot of them really are good, though) like the one called 'Understanding the Religious Reich' (http://www.neopagan.net/ReligiousReich.html), where he says:


We believe in magic — that anyone can learn to do miracles. That makes their Christ (assuming he ever actually lived, which is still an open question among non-Fundamentalist historians) merely another famous magician among many. This destroys the main body of “evidence” (most of which was written down centuries after he supposedly died) for special claims of his divinity

it does seem true that the ancient Hebrews invented religious genocide, which is the killing of other peoples for having a different religion than the killers’ own. They did this by murdering the priestesses and priests of the competing deities worshiped within their own population, then the competing clergy of all the local tribes. For good measure, they also killed the conquered tribe’s adults and boys, keeping only the little girls whom they could then rape and brainwash into the new religion of Yahwehism and their new roles as slaves to men (don’t take my word for it, the “Old Testament” is filled with examples). Jeramiah and his revisionist followers did their worst to remove the evidence of Yahweh’s wife Tiamat, and demoted the other deities to “angels.

the equally charming history of Islam — another desert monotheism

This basically starts off by saying anyone who says Jesus 'did exist' must be a 'fundamentalist historian' but people who say he didn't (or that there's not enough evidence) is a 'liberal or even 'pagan' historian'.

Then he attacks the Jew's, yeah i know that the early Hebrew's did commit a kind of 'genocide' against the Canaanite's, but since when was Yahweh's wife 'Tiamet', i've never heard that before (i've heard Yahweh was married or at least dated the Canaanite Asherah and other Hebrew deities (the Hebrew and Canaanite deities are slightly different, and the early Hebrew's were polytheistic).

Then he calls Islam 'another desert monotheism', which to me is insulting to Islam (and Judaism and Christianity, to a certain extent Bahai(sp?), etc) and seems to me just racist.

I know that Christian's have done horrible things in the world (and so have Jew's and Muslim's), but people, like Bonewits, seem to think 'pagans' were all 'peaceful and loving', forgetting the persecution of Christian's by the Roman's, the fact that the Roman's persecuted the Jew's many times (raping them, killing them, burning Jewish villages, placing a pigs head on the altar, burning the Temple, rededicating the Temple to Jupiter, 'outlawing' the Judaism and exiling the Jew's from their homeland, etc).

But, judging by some 'pagan' sites and books, you'd think that every 'evil' in the world is the 'fault' of the Christian's (or the Jew's or the Muslim's), i remember reading one 'pagan' site, which basically 'excused' the Roman persecution of the Jew's and Christian's, by saying worshipping one god was basically the 'same as' atheism (as if there's something wrong with being an atheist or agnostic).

This 'anti-Christian' (or Jewish or Muslim) trend bothers me, for 1 reason, 'cause for people who say they respect other traditions, it's not really actually 'respecting' other traditions, but other reasons, especially for Wiccan's, since, according to whywiccanssuck.com, Wiccan ritual is based on Christian mysticism, not 'pagan', and the early founders of Wicca, such as Gardner and Valiente, had no problem with Christian's, Jesus, or Christianity, for example, take a look at this article (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101000000-20051231235959/http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2310/Christ.htm):


Gerald Gardner himself, the founder of modern Wicca, declared just the opposite:

It is usually said that to be made a witch one must abjure Christianity; this is not true; but they naturally would not receive into their ranks anyone who was a very narrow Christian. They do not think that the real Jesus was literally the Son of God, but are quite prepared to accept that he was one of the Enlightened Ones, or Holy Men. That is the reason why witches do not think they were hypocrites "in times of persecution" for going to church and honoring Christ, especially as so many of the old Sun-hero myths have been incorporated into Christianity; while others might bow to the Madonna, who is closely akin to their goddess of heaven.2

Doreen Valiente, another pioneer in the modern Craft revival, even related that she knew of one Wiccan priestess who had a picture of Jesus in her private sanctuary because of the honor and esteem in which she held him

So, i don't know why so many 'pagans', especially Wiccan's, have a 'problem' with Christianity and Christian's, considering the founders didn't, considering their rituals are based one Christian Mysticism, and tarot cards are based on the Kabbalah (i think, i'm not too clear about that, but i thought they were originally created by a Jewish man).

Plus, a lot of phrases and words that 'pagans' use are originally Christian or Jewish (and maybe Muslim?) in origin, for example the 'craft', 'blessed be', etc are freemason in origin (i think), and the 'dark night of the soul' thing that a lot of 'pagans' talk about is actually based on Jewish mysticism (they say that before 'enlightenment', that's what people must face).

To me, i don't see the problem in Christian's, Jew's, Muslim's or their religions, i'm a 'pagan', i don't quite have a 'path' yet, but i can admit that Jesus, Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah exist (whether there the same entity or not), i can see angels, demons, saints, etc existing, i don't believe that all demons are 'evil' or angels are all 'good' but i accept they exist, just as i accept that the Greek gods have their supernatural servants and spirits, same with the Norse, Aztec, Sumerian, Canaanite, Kemetic, etc.

I don't see why religion has to 'come into the picture' at all, religions are personal and should be kept to yourself, yeah you can share your beliefs on forums like Mystic Wicks and other 'pagan' forums (or whatever religion you are, but do people have to 'hate' Christian's, Jew's, Muslim's, etc just 'cause some people died a thousand years ago (that probably had no relation to you), if you are going to get upset at those deaths, then look at today, look at Africa (that's more worth getting angry about and direct it to the governments or the 'G8', or look at Iraq or Afghanistan, or look down the street at homeless kids, or teens killing themselves, etc). I think 'pagans' need to start accepting that the world isn't 'good', at least not all the time, that 'pagans' weren't all 'good and great and 'fluffy'', that just 'maybe', when people converted to Christianity, it may not have been 'forced' all the time, that just maybe, some people wanted a change, maybe in Northern Europe, the religion of Asatru didn't meet everyone's 'spiritual needs', just maybe Christianity did for those people, not every religion meets the needs of everyone (Christianity doesn't either, just so i'm clear), imagine the shock in that!.

I think that sites like www.whywiccanssuck.com (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101-20051231re_/http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/)are great because 'pagans' do need a 'shock', to 'wake' them up, so to speak, (BTW, even though it's called whywiccanssuck.com, i think it can apply to many other 'pagans' too).

I'd really love it, if just once a 'pagan' didn't try and blame all the 'evils' on the Christian's or Jew's or Muslim's, i know that sounds like 'wishful thinking', and i know every religion will have its jerks, but i think 'pagan' religions can at least try and stop being 'anti-Christian', which for many, is a way of expressing an anti-Middle Eastern 'mentality', for example, one Hellenic recon site i went to, said something like 'Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion and the vast majority of 'Western' European's aren't so it doesn't 'meet their spiritual needs', and the 'original' religions do', which is basically, the 'folkish' arguement that i've seen (and yet i want to see 'proof' that religion's are carried in your blood, who has 'pure' blood, i don't, my dad comes from Ireland, my mum is British but her mum is Jewish and Iraqi, her dad was Turkish, and his mum was Russian, and my granddad on my mum's side was English). If Christianity is only 'for' the Middle East, then how come so many people find great happiness in it (my Irish side of the family are Catholic and don't suddenly want to worship the Irish gods, although a belief in supernatural beings such as the banshee are common as my dad and his brothers heard one), how come African's find comfort in it, or Mexican's, etc.

Anyway, this may seem like a rant, but it's something i really had to get off my chest, just like the post i made in Theology and Philosophy called 'Are 'pagans' hypocritical?', this isn't meant to offend anyone and i hope i haven't offended anyone too badly, at least, but it's something i'd like to see people think about, plus, some advice i've learn is to not bottle things up.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?.

Shanti
July 4th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Some non-christians may be anti-christian but to generlize that 'pagans' are anti-christian is rediculas! Not all pagans feel the same way.
So I find your poll useless.

Philosophia
July 4th, 2006, 07:56 PM
I think some are anti-Christian but not all. I know I'm not (otherwise, I'll hate most of my friends) but some are. Thats their choice, not mine and I keep it that way. Some have had bad experiances with Christianity that sours their perspective but I haven't had any. I think if you look around the board a bit you'll find that not all pagans blame Christianity or other organized religions for everything that goes wrong.
While www.whywiccanssuck.com has some good points, it makes too many sterotypes that really pull this site down. It doesn't really do anything to shock or awe anything.

moonbride
July 4th, 2006, 08:12 PM
I don't think that Pagans are anti-Christian as in against the religion in so much as they are against some of the people of that religion when they claim to know that they are right and Pagans are wrong in the way they feel and believe. But I agree with the poster above that it's not good to generalize that all Pagans are against all Christians.

TheWomanMonster
July 4th, 2006, 08:34 PM
No....

But are most Christians 'Anti-Pagan'??

It is totally unfair to generalize in such a way,
no matter which side you're looking from.

I personally have had negative and positive experiences with people from many different faiths and backgrounds...

People can be intolerant and closed minded no matter what they believe in.
People can also be wonderfully giving and caring even when others that follow that very same faith are abusive, unforgiving and cruel.

so yeah... I agree with the others,

Monster

gwendar
July 4th, 2006, 08:36 PM
I don't know if you can say most pagans are anti-Christian.
And I don't speak for any pagans, because I'm not sure I'm even a pagan, myself.
But whatever I am, I don't dislike Christians-the-people. But I have to admit that I have strong feelings against mainstream Christianity,
Why?
I was raised fundy Pentecostal Christian, and I find many of their beliefs to be awful. I won't get into why because I don't want to violate MWs respect rule. I respect their right to believe as they will, but that doesn't mean I have to think their beliefs are good.
But I'm pretty much anti- any organized religion. :)

So.
I guess my answer is that some people are, and some aren't. And being pagan might not matter.

But anyway. My family is Christian, and I respect and love them. Same with my Christian friends. I may have negative feelings about their religion, but I still can respect that they are entitled to believe it.

I guess I'm rambling.

I don't take issue with all branches of Christianity, just some that I view as harmful.

Anyway, I'm going to shut up now because I don't think I'm making any sense.
:D

Hope I haven't offended any Christians who may read this thread.
Just 'cause I may disagree with you doesn't mean I don't like or respect you.
To borrow a "fundy" quote in jest: "Love the sinner, hate the sin." :lol:
:hugz:

EDIT:
Just wanted to add that I also have no issue with the Christ. In fact, I like some of his teachings. But I think the religion(s?) based around him today is/are far different than what he intended.

DarkDancer
July 4th, 2006, 10:08 PM
Sure there are some Anti-Christian Pagans, however I think I would label them The Vocal Minority.

richardgoldfinch064
July 4th, 2006, 10:16 PM
No....

But are most Christians 'Anti-Pagan'??

It is totally unfair to generalize in such a way,
no matter which side you're looking from.

I personally have had negative and positive experiences with people from many different faiths and backgrounds...

People can be intolerant and closed minded no matter what they believe in.
People can also be wonderfully giving and caring even when others that follow that very same faith are abusive, unforgiving and cruel.

so yeah... I agree with the others,

Monstersimilar :lol:

Squiddy
July 4th, 2006, 10:27 PM
I will respect any religion that doesn't try to force its dogma upon me, or try to make me live my life according to it's rules.

Rasenna
July 4th, 2006, 10:31 PM
Something i've noticed from various sites and books is that people will always complain about Christianity and Christian's (or Jew's or Muslim's, etc). They seem to think that every single 'problem' they face is the result of Christianity or Christian's and the 'persecution' they face (yet, IMO, maybe they should go to Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc to learn about true persecution and suffering).

R: personally, I have never been out and outright persecuted by Christians. <shrugs>

It also seems that some 'pagans' will deliberatly go 'out of their way' to insult Christian's and then use that as an 'example' of 'persecution' (i've seen some people call it 'Christian-baiting'). It also bothers me when some may say they 'tolerant' and are 'polytheist' and believe in all the gods, yet refuse to believe that Yahweh exists and some will even bring out 'proof' that Jesus 'didn't exist', and call people who say he 'did exist' 'liars' or just 'fundamentalist historians' (and yet they'll also bitch when someone 'criticizes' their religion e.g. take some Wiccan's who don't like Hutton 'cause he 'destroys' some of their 'favourite theories' about a 'real 'pagan' religion that 'survived' the 'big, bad Christian's', etc or other 'pagans' (not just Wiccan's) who'll complain when someone brings out 'new' evidence that the culture they're reconstructing and admire may not have been all that 'great', that human sacrifice did take place (as it did in every religion, though, including Judaism), etc).

R: or, the opposite, that "all Gods are one god...except that 'bastard,' Yahweh!" Frankly, I no more believe in an historical Jesus than I do an historical Krishna--but neither do I believe that something/someone has to have been historical to EXIST. To tell you the honest truth, I've had more go-arounds with Heathens than I have with Christians LOL!! I also recognize that my ancestors practiced both animal and human sacrifices. Period.

For example, I was on Isaac Bonewits site and was reading through some articles (a lot of them really are good, though) like the one called 'Understanding the Religious Reich' (http://www.neopagan.net/ReligiousReich.html), where he says:

I like some of Bonewits' work, but it's best to always remember to take what he says with a grain of salt. :)



This basically starts off by saying anyone who says Jesus 'did exist' must be a 'fundamentalist historian' but people who say he didn't (or that there's not enough evidence) is a 'liberal or even 'pagan' historian'.

Then he attacks the Jew's, yeah i know that the early Hebrew's did commit a kind of 'genocide' against the Canaanite's, but since when was Yahweh's wife 'Tiamet', i've never heard that before (i've heard Yahweh was married or at least dated the Canaanite Asherah and other Hebrew deities (the Hebrew and Canaanite deities are slightly different, and the early Hebrew's were polytheistic).

Then he calls Islam 'another desert monotheism', which to me is insulting to Islam (and Judaism and Christianity, to a certain extent Bahai(sp?), etc) and seems to me just racist.

R: Heh. By that notion, certain cults in Egypt could likewise be entitled "another desert monotheism" LOL.

I know that Christian's have done horrible things in the world (and so have Jew's and Muslim's), but people, like Bonewits, seem to think 'pagans' were all 'peaceful and loving', forgetting the persecution of Christian's by the Roman's, the fact that the Roman's persecuted the Jew's many times (raping them, killing them, burning Jewish villages, placing a pigs head on the altar, burning the Temple, rededicating the Temple to Jupiter, 'outlawing' the Judaism and exiling the Jew's from their homeland, etc).

R: Roman persecution of Christians was not on as large a scale as it was purported to be. Christian persecution is usually done by other Christians...(i.e. against Gnostics for heresy, etc.)

But, judging by some 'pagan' sites and books, you'd think that every 'evil' in the world is the 'fault' of the Christian's (or the Jew's or the Muslim's), i remember reading one 'pagan' site, which basically 'excused' the Roman persecution of the Jew's and Christian's, by saying worshipping one god was basically the 'same as' atheism (as if there's something wrong with being an atheist or agnostic).

R: Yes, many Roman senators and such considered monotheism to be an atheistic worldview. So what of it?

This 'anti-Christian' (or Jewish or Muslim) trend bothers me, for 1 reason, 'cause for people who say they respect other traditions, it's not really actually 'respecting' other traditions, but other reasons, especially for Wiccan's, since, according to whywiccanssuck.com, Wiccan ritual is based on Christian mysticism, not 'pagan', and the early founders of Wicca, such as Gardner and Valiente, had no problem with Christian's, Jesus, or Christianity, for example, take a look at this article (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101000000-20051231235959/http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2310/Christ.htm):

R: Yes, and...? A lot of Gnostic rituals were based on pagan Mystery traditions. Religions borrow from each other all the time. That's the way of the world. <shrugs>



So, i don't know why so many 'pagans', especially Wiccan's, have a 'problem' with Christianity and Christian's, considering the founders didn't, considering their rituals are based one Christian Mysticism, and tarot cards are based on the Kabbalah (i think, i'm not too clear about that, but i thought they were originally created by a Jewish man).

R: Eh. Tarochi was initially a game to teach children basic ideas about life...

Plus, a lot of phrases and words that 'pagans' use are originally Christian or Jewish (and maybe Muslim?) in origin, for example the 'craft', 'blessed be', etc are freemason in origin (i think), and the 'dark night of the soul' thing that a lot of 'pagans' talk about is actually based on Jewish mysticism (they say that before 'enlightenment', that's what people must face).

To me, i don't see the problem in Christian's, Jew's, Muslim's or their religions, i'm a 'pagan', i don't quite have a 'path' yet, but i can admit that Jesus, Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah exist (whether there the same entity or not), i can see angels, demons, saints, etc existing, i don't believe that all demons are 'evil' or angels are all 'good' but i accept they exist, just as i accept that the Greek gods have their supernatural servants and spirits, same with the Norse, Aztec, Sumerian, Canaanite, Kemetic, etc.

R: Higher beings and demons are not original to monotheistic traditions.

I don't see why religion has to 'come into the picture' at all, religions are personal and should be kept to yourself, yeah you can share your beliefs on forums like Mystic Wicks and other 'pagan' forums (or whatever religion you are, but do people have to 'hate' Christian's, Jew's, Muslim's, etc just 'cause some people died a thousand years ago (that probably had no relation to you), if you are going to get upset at those deaths, then look at today, look at Africa (that's more worth getting angry about and direct it to the governments or the 'G8', or look at Iraq or Afghanistan, or look down the street at homeless kids, or teens killing themselves, etc). I think 'pagans' need to start accepting that the world isn't 'good', at least not all the time, that 'pagans' weren't all 'good and great and 'fluffy'', that just 'maybe', when people converted to Christianity, it may not have been 'forced' all the time, that just maybe, some people wanted a change, maybe in Northern Europe, the religion of Asatru didn't meet everyone's 'spiritual needs', just maybe Christianity did for those people, not every religion meets the needs of everyone (Christianity doesn't either, just so i'm clear), imagine the shock in that!.

R: The Universe is NOT a friendly place. Study the physical of our galaxy some time and you'll see what I mean.

I think that sites like www.whywiccanssuck.com (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101-20051231re_/http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/)are great because 'pagans' do need a 'shock', to 'wake' them up, so to speak, (BTW, even though it's called whywiccanssuck.com, i think it can apply to many other 'pagans' too).

R: Some people will always need a scapegoat so that they don't have to grow up and take responsibility for their own s***.

I'd really love it, if just once a 'pagan' didn't try and blame all the 'evils' on the Christian's or Jew's or Muslim's, i know that sounds like 'wishful thinking', and i know every religion will have its jerks, but i think 'pagan' religions can at least try and stop being 'anti-Christian', which for many, is a way of expressing an anti-Middle Eastern 'mentality', for example, one Hellenic recon site i went to, said something like 'Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion and the vast majority of 'Western' European's aren't so it doesn't 'meet their spiritual needs', and the 'original' religions do', which is basically, the 'folkish' arguement that i've seen (and yet i want to see 'proof' that religion's are carried in your blood, who has 'pure' blood, i don't, my dad comes from Ireland, my mum is British but her mum is Jewish and Iraqi, her dad was Turkish, and his mum was Russian, and my granddad on my mum's side was English). If Christianity is only 'for' the Middle East, then how come so many people find great happiness in it (my Irish side of the family are Catholic and don't suddenly want to worship the Irish gods, although a belief in supernatural beings such as the banshee are common as my dad and his brothers heard one), how come African's find comfort in it, or Mexican's, etc.

R: Actually, a lot of Christianity began in places like Rome and France. Also: many African and Mexican religious superstitions were similar to the later Christian ones.

Anyway, this may seem like a rant, but it's something i really had to get off my chest, just like the post i made in Theology and Philosophy called 'Are 'pagans' hypocritical?', this isn't meant to offend anyone and i hope i haven't offended anyone too badly, at least, but it's something i'd like to see people think about, plus, some advice i've learn is to not bottle things up.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?.

R: There they are! (Read above).

Rasenna

Infinite Grey
July 4th, 2006, 10:44 PM
I generally dislike Pagans and Christians and Atheists equally... they're all the same in the end.

Novembers River
July 4th, 2006, 10:46 PM
I don't think that Pagans are anti-Christian as in against the religion in so much as they are against some of the people of that religion when they claim to know that they are right and Pagans are wrong in the way they feel and believe. But I agree with the poster above that it's not good to generalize that all Pagans are against all Christians.

Yep. I have nothing really against the religion of Christianity. I don't like it or agree with it, but if someone follows it, that's their right and I respect that.

I do, however, have a big problem with some of the "followers" of Christianity. Tell me I'm going to hell enough times and I'm going to get irritated. Or the fact that there are Christians out there that will fight so hard to surpress any right people have to practice other non-Christian religions.

Lunacie
July 4th, 2006, 11:02 PM
I think it's common for folks who have recently left any of the Christian religions to have some negative feelings about Christianity or at least certain people who claim to be Christians. Most of them get over it and realize it doesn't have to be "us versus them".

I didn't feel that Bonewit's essay was especially negative towards Christianity. Most of it was factual and he was asking honest questions. Some Christian scholars are asking similar questions, does that make them "anti-Christian?" One of the reasons I myself left the church quite a long time ago was that questions were not welcome. One was simply supposed to "believe" and to take things "on faith".

BTW, Bonewits' was not saying that Jesus didn't exist in the Pagan world view, but that if he did exist that many Pagans believe he was just as human, and just as divine, as any of us are.

There was a lot of stuff that was left out of the bible back when the menfolk were deciding what should go in and what should be left out. I don't know if it was then or later on when the bible underwent one of it's many re-translations that the wording was changed from "god" meaning both male creator and female wisdom, but for me all those translations leave the "word of God" somewhat suspect to being as much or more the word of the men who rewrote it. Does that scepticism make me "anti-Christian"?

Arion
July 4th, 2006, 11:51 PM
I wouldn't say I'm anti-Christian, I just don't really care about other people's beliefs one way or the other. As long as they aren't hurting anybody or interfering with people's personal freedon, they can worship whoever or whatever the heck they want to.

That said, Christianity is the dominant religion in western society, and its become so institutionalized in so many aspects of our society, even the supposedly secular ones, like the law, so it often does create some friction for Pagans. It is part of Christian belief to think that every other religion in wrong and Jesus is the "only way to the father." Most Christians probably wouldn't take it too seriously though, since Jesus also taught acceptance. Many Christians are usually raised to believe things like witchraft, magic, pagan gods, and the like, are either evil or utter nonsense. It's no surprise that Pagans would have some issues with some people who could think that they are evil and/or not take their spirituality seriously. I can certainly understand where Pagans who have issues with Christianity are coming from, but it seems that the new trend among Pagans is to jump down the throats of those who criticize the mainstream religions. It gets a little annoying.

Let's all just mind out own business and respect each other, k?

CelticMoon11
July 5th, 2006, 02:29 AM
I'm anti-christian if they wake me up or take me away from good television viewing or my morning coffee, no tv and no coffee makes celtic something something... :lol:

jcldragon
July 5th, 2006, 08:12 AM
It depends upon how you define Christianity. I do not recognize Fundamentalism as being a form of Christianity, because while they use His name a lot, they show no comprehension of what he was talking about, and they consistently do everything Jesus told them NOT to do, and base their religion upon that.

Then there are what I call, "Sermon on the Mount"-type Christians. These people go out of their way to put into practice the Spiritual teachings of Jesus, as best they can. These people have no problem with other religions, figuring that they are just other ways of worshipping God. They figure that Christ is in your Heart, if you make your life about Compassion & Reverence for Life, and that we really all are worshipping the same God, no matter what labels we put on it.

So looking at it this way, I can fairly say that Christians have never persecuted anybody ever... even though lots of people who said they were Christians, most certainly did. I recall one instance in which a Christian preacher admonished a guy for condeming what I do, as a form of Satanism. The Christian Preacher (Rev Dennis) said, "James practices Magick on behalf of Christ, and I've never seen anything in his Heart, that wasn't of Christ".

Calen
July 5th, 2006, 08:35 AM
...but since when was Yahweh's wife 'Tiamet', i've never heard that before (i've heard Yahweh was married or at least dated the Canaanite Asherah and other Hebrew deities...

Sorry. Had to bring this one up. I read it and got this image of Yaweh
curling his beard and putting on some cologne, getting ready for his hot date with Asherah.

Anyway...I understand what you are frustrated about, although I think you are blowing things out of proportion. Most pagans do not hold the beliefs that you describe.

I respect people's right to practice what religion they will. That doesn't mean I have to nod at every other person's belief and say 'Yes, that's lovely. Can't argue with that.' I was raised Christian, and I certainly don't hate Christians or Christianity. I do disagree with some of their dogma, but that doesn't mean I disrespect them. There is a difference between saying 'I don't agree wholeheartedly with every belief and practice of Christianity' and 'I hate Christianity'.

Anyone who believes that Christians have a monopoly on historic oppression or that all pagans are loving and peaceful are silly, in my opinion. But I don't think nearly so many people think anything like that as you seem to believe.

Semjaza
July 5th, 2006, 09:33 AM
I voted maybe :) I can make generalizations but really I can only speak for myself and my own experiences as a pagan.

I am not 'anti-Christian,' but I am 'not Christian' and in the minds of some people these things are one and the same. Just because I don't believe in many Christian teachings or disagree with the Pope/whoever on his stance on condoms, and female priests, doesn't make me anti-Christian. I'm quite fond of the Devil, so would that make me anti-Christian by association? :) I love the folktales of faeries demanding that those humans who would associate with them renounce their Christianity (even if these were elite ideas written into folklore and trial records) but does that make me anti-Christian? I reject the monotheistic Christian worldview, but it is a valid one for many people, and I respect that.

I understand David's frustration with the anti-Christian comments. I don't care so much about the comments themselves (even if they are bigoted), but the hypocrisy that surrounds them. Even with popular pagan and Wiccan authors, I often read that I should respect the beliefs of all other religions, but then the author starts taking shots at Christianity and monotheism in general, which is really quite hypocritical and childish.

I wonder how much anti-Christian sentiment within paganism is because many pagans come from a Christian background and are trying to distance themselves from it by attacking their previous beliefs? I don't hear many anti-Buddhist or anti-Muslim comments from pagans, perhaps that would be considered prejudice? :)

(As an off-topic side comment: What's up with all the anti-Satanist/Satanism prejudice in the Wiccan community?)

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

lady_fey
July 5th, 2006, 11:19 AM
Am I anti Christian? Or do I think all pagans are anti Christian?
What is anti Christian?
Well what is the opposite of that?
Pro Christian.
What is Christian?
People who follow the teachings of Christ I am assuming.
Ok, am I anti the people who follow the teachings of Christ?
Hm, I am anti the teachings of the people who follow Christ. Not necessarily the teachings of Jesus himself.
Not sure if what is recorded in what is accepted by the followers of Christ is true and accurate as to what Jesus taught.
But the people themselves?
Depends on the person.
Are all pagans like me?
Nope.
I can only answer for myself.
Are all pagans anti Christian?
Are they against the people who accept the commonly accepted teachings of Jesus?
Or are they against the teachings themselves?
Those teachings in my meaning that promote hostility and/or non acceptance and/or intolerance towards anyone who does not accept their teachings.
And can a person be against those teachings, but not against the persons right to believe said teachings, still be accepting of the person who believes those teachings, meaning that the person who believes those teachings also believes that said non-christian is going to burn in hell?

:awilly: :awilly: :awilly: :awilly: :awilly: :awilly:
In short....
How easy is it to be ok with the idea that your very devout christian neighbor that you have daily walks with and share coffee over the fence with, believes that you will burn for an eternity in hell? (those are the teachings I am speaking about)

I'm cool with it, hey, karma can be beotch. Maybe they'll come back as a worker ant. Or a mosquito. Or a fly. Or a politician. or or or or or or......


a pagan

:hahugh:

Lady Fey

stella01904
July 5th, 2006, 11:31 AM
I don't object to Christianity per se. I do personally see it as deeply flawed, as practiced today, and I object to people trying to shove it down my throat.

There is a big article in Rolling Stone about how the neocon administration is using the gay marriage issue to gain Christian voters in the south. It says that this is the same tactic used in the 60's - only then it was interracial marriage, which was actually illegal in 16 states.

Because of politics and hate-mongering I tend to leave when people start talking about Jesus. I don't blame Jesus and I don't think he approves of being used as a brainwashing tool. I do disagree with some of the things Jesus said, and I am not a Christian. Still, there is some beauty in his teachings and I think it's sad the way that they are being used.
Stella

Crysiira
July 5th, 2006, 11:44 AM
I think it's common for folks who have recently left any of the Christian religions to have some negative feelings about Christianity or at least certain people who claim to be Christians. Most of them get over it and realize it doesn't have to be "us versus them".

I totally agree with this, it was completely how I felt.... and I got over it!
Anyway, to respond to the original post.... for one thing, you have your definitions wrong. You say that pagans claim to be tolerant and polytheistic but won't believe in Yahweh.... um, that's not what polytheistic or tolerant means. Polytheistic is believing in MANY gods. If you're looking for a word that means believing in ALL gods, I think the word is PANtheistic. And tolerant has nothing to do with believing in Yahweh. It means tolerating people who believe in Yahweh.
And I think most Pagans do. You are taking a minority of pagans who get all fundamental and anti-christian, and summing those up as what all pagans do. It's the same as when someone takes a fundamental christian and say, well, that's what all christians believe, so why bother talking to them? It's stereotypical assumptions like that keeping us from living happily all together. (cue sappy music.)
Anyway, those are my thoughts, and until you realize not to group everyone together and file away in little folders with labels proclaiming stereotypes, there's really not much else to debate.

Akhkharu Asgard
July 5th, 2006, 02:36 PM
I voted other because while some are, some are not against them. Just like any group has people for or against any other group. I personally think Christianity is a pretty good religion. The best part of it for me, are the morals and belief system. It's definitly a good religion to live by, even if you don't care for the actual religious content. And just like any other religion or group, there are parts of it that I do not like. For a religion based on a "supernatural" deity (as in: non-human), leaving humanity to run it was not a good idea. Humans are hypocritical and selfish by nature and that leads to fights for power and control (which can be seen throughout the entire religion of Christianity). But that goes for pretty much every religion and/or group. I think it's a good religion, just like most religions out there. It's the humans that are the problem.

NiftyWings
July 5th, 2006, 02:54 PM
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-Fundamentalist. And that applies to any religion!

djmixon
July 5th, 2006, 03:34 PM
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-Fundamentalist. And that applies to any religion!

Not a bad response, but I would wonder what you define as fundamentalist.

TRUE fundamentalists will follow the Bible and the teachings of YHWH and Jesus... they are part of a tri-une God, along with the Holy Spirit (the mother aspect).

I am afraid what many lable as fundamentalists are not TRUE fundamentalists. That includes Jerry Falwell, and all extremists.

YHWH formed the tribes of Isreal. Jesus redefined Isreal from a physical Isreal complete with direct lineage to a spiritual Isreal complete with a personal, spiritual connection... Christianity.

I cannot be held responsible for what the morons of the age of Inquisitions did. I don't believe what they believed for the most part. Sure, I believe in The Godhead, but I think our similarities part there.

I believe the more middle of the road Christianity is the more accepting group and follows the teachings more closely.

I have not problem with other religions. I believe many of the tenets of most religion fit the tenets of Christianity.

Sure there are extremists, just as there are extremists in Christianity, but they don't speak for the majority, but any means.

Many incidents have occurred here at MW that can be used to "prove" pagans hate Christians, but I choose to believe that is not the truth. I believe those are a vocal minority who want to rule this site as terrorists to those who believe differently than they. It is a shame since some have left because of that behavoir. Fortunately, mol knows better and tries to keep that kind of behavior under control.

Perhaps the answers offered should have been more along the line of "a majority do" or "a minority do" or something along those lines.

Just my 2 cents.

BB
D

Lunacie
July 5th, 2006, 03:48 PM
It's interesting to take a look at the difference, if any, between "extremist" and "fundamentalist".



fundamentalism:

A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

extremist:

adj : (used of opinions and actions) far beyond the norm; "extremist political views"; "radical opinions on education"; "an ultra conservative"
n : a person who holds extreme views


And that is the difference as I see it between "fundamentalists" and "extremists". An extremist isn't so intolerant when others disagree with his world view. It's the intolerance and opposition to anything that is different from their own beliefs that makes Fundies a target for the scorn of anyone who is different.

Granted, there are some who are trying to reclaim the word "fundamentalist" and give it a more positive spin, just as there have been those who have tried to reclaim the word "witch" and give it a more positive spin.

shuvanilu
July 5th, 2006, 04:02 PM
Well first, my answer to David19. I voted other...as in *sometimes*. Just like sometimes Christians are anti-pagan. Sometimes dogs are anti-cat, sometimes students are anti-teacher...but not always. There are always exceptions, and I don't think that most pagans are anti-Christian, but unfortunately, the ones that are are pretty vocal about it, and make a lot of general/sweeping statements that can be hurtful to both the pagan and the Christian communities.


Then I'll just comment on Semjaza's comment:



(As an off-topic side comment: What's up with all the anti-Satanist/Satanism prejudice in the Wiccan community?)

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF


I think it's because in many ways being a Satanist is being a renegade Christian, because you can't really worship a being unless you accept this being's cosmology. Also, I think most pagans don't like the idea of there being an all around evil guy scape-goat when people do something wrong (the devil made me do it!!), instead of said person taking responsibility for their own actions. That being said, I am not one to discount the posibility of his existance. I just think he might be a little different than he is usually described. This concludes my off topic remarks:bat: ---shuvanilu

Suzette
July 5th, 2006, 05:01 PM
I'm not fond of being 'anti' anything (well...there is that dufus in the White House), but I will say I am anti-hypocrisy in all forms, religious or otherwise. If you choose a faith, respect it and live by example.

That doesn't narrow things down to Christianity.

djmixon
July 5th, 2006, 05:34 PM
It is a shame people mince words to try to make a point...

Intolerance is ugly, no matter who is doing it.

To choose a path and stick to its principles is not always popular, but it is right for the person who had made that choice.

Don't hate the player... hate the games they play...

I play no games. I am a Christian and I try very hard to follow the tenets of my chosen religion. It is a shame that although I choose to give the same respect to others that I would like to receive, some choose to be negative... even when they try to use subterfuge to make it look like a "wisdom" or some such nonsense... it is still hypocrisy... and I am firmly against that.

Either be true to your hate and tell it like you really see it (i.e., call a spade a spade) or reconsider your stance and motives... and monitor your words and works.

LordHelmet
July 5th, 2006, 05:49 PM
I hate belief systems. Let me illistrate one that calls itself xtianity.

<-Guilt trip->This guy, Jesus, died a horible injust death for all the naughty things you and everyone else does. This book, God's word says so and what those naughty things are. And all he's asking is that you believe he did it. (OK who would believe something this wild and loopy just because someone told you it?)

<-Guilt Trip Solution->Your a terrible person, but you don't have to feel bad about anything because so is everybody else. You can't help it.

<-Belief System Core->You should try to follow this book, but you can't. So you have to get forgiven. For that you have have to believe and recognize the <guilt trip> and <solution>. God wants to forgive you but he can't unless you do this.

<-motivation-> If you follow the <Belief Core> by believing you will will be forgivin and have eternal happiness. (happy for ever and ever.) If you can't come to believe, You get tourtered for ever and ever. Better to believe just in case.

<-Justification-> Jesus says it's better to believe without seeing, or another words, have faith (believe this stuff is true) even though it doesn't make any sense and score Bonus brownie points for afterlife.

<-Facilitation of Belief-> If you want to believe because you were firghtined/guilted into it, but can't because of your human reasoning (it doesn't make any sense and it's stupid) Just go to church, and more importantly, pray to Jesus to give you the power to belive and then the miraculesness of the oversight you are granted will help reinforce others beliefs by giving them shred of a reason to believe this stuff.


You could pray to Santa to help you believe in him and if you were honest it would work. You would be telling your subconscious mind he was real, and would start to believe it.

shuvanilu
July 5th, 2006, 06:46 PM
djmixon: Who is your post in response to?

Lord Helmet: Are you trying to prove that some pagans are bigots?

---shuvanilu

AletheiaRivers
July 5th, 2006, 07:12 PM
As a spiritual path, as a movement - no.

Certain individuals (or even certain groups) - yes.


Soooo - "Maybe."

As with all things human, it depends.

cheddarsox
July 5th, 2006, 07:26 PM
In my experience, many Christians consider pagans anti-Christian by definition. If people have heard of Jesus but not "accepted" the message as truth, then they are considered to have actively rejected it, and thus are anti-Christian.

Also, many Christians believe all pagan gods to be demons, so people who worship them, worship and serve demons and again, by definition are anti-Christian.

It is a whole different mindset. They can't avoid it and be true to their theology, so there it is.

Many, not most, or all.

cheddar

Meadhbh
July 5th, 2006, 07:33 PM
It really depends on the person or group your talking about. Its seems to me that the people who are most likely to be defined as snti-christian are newer converts who are lashing out at the belief system they grew up in. That or they fall into the mind set that every one and their mother is out to oppress them.

djmixon
July 5th, 2006, 07:36 PM
djmixon: Who is your post in response to?

Lord Helmet: Are you trying to prove that some pagans are bigots?

---shuvanilu

No one in particular... I was talking offline with someone else and it was just a thought that crossed my mind.

The thought is equal opportunity so it can be directed to each of us in accordance with our own thoughts and actions.

I can't say I have read anything in this thread that would specifically be a prereq to those thoughts... it is just about being honest with one's self and how one represents themself.

Sorry if that was not clear...

Thanks for asking for clarification...


goodness knows the people I know of that could be considered to have my thoughts directed to them specifically are on my ignore list and there aren't that many of those...

eta: I forgot... true Christianity does believe in personal responsiblity. Temptation lies everywhere... be it a devil or whatever you may call it... it is a matter of personal choice to do something right or to do something wrong. Thanks for bringing that subject up as well.

djmixon
July 5th, 2006, 07:50 PM
I hate belief systems. Let me illistrate one that calls itself xtianity.

I am sorry if a Christian or some group call themselves Christian have offended you, but the teachings of Jesus do not have motivations in guilt, terror, or negativity. But rather, Jesus taught love, peace and understanding.

Sure, just like everything else, there are flaws, but those flaws lie in the humans not in the belief system or path.

So, I hope you can open yourself to see that not all Christians are hate-mongering persecutors... we are not.

D

Rasenna
July 5th, 2006, 07:51 PM
I think it's because in many ways being a Satanist is being a renegade Christian, because you can't really worship a being unless you accept this being's cosmology. Also, I think most pagans don't like the idea of there being an all around evil guy scape-goat when people do something wrong (the devil made me do it!!), instead of said person taking responsibility for their own actions. That being said, I am not one to discount the posibility of his existance. I just think he might be a little different than he is usually described. This concludes my off topic remarks:bat: ---shuvanilu

All the Satanists I've ever met, be they on-line or IRL, do NOT worship Satan! Rather, they use the name of Satan in order to thwart the religious programming of our culture. I was asked by a co-worker recently whether or not I was ever afraid that anyone would mistake my pentacle for a Satanic symbol. I replied, truthfully, that most people either think it's the Star of David or else are entirely clueless. However, if they DO think I worship Satan (although I am not a Satanist in any way, shape or form), that is just fine with me, because it keeps the idiots/riff-raff away--which is where I prefer them to be...! :boing:
R

Tanya
July 5th, 2006, 08:15 PM
I won't say I'm anti-christain. I'm anti-stupid, and there are some STUPID christians I've met, I've also met some disturbingly stupid Jews, and I'm sure there are stuid people in lots of other religious groups, but, most of my friends are Christians or Jews if they aren't pagan (OK, I've met some REALLY stupid pagans too). I've met a few Muslims, but I must have so far met the cream of the crop because, I 'm sure they have some stupid ones out there.
I don't buy the world's problems are Christian based, if that was true what would explain all the scarey crap that happens in Africa or Asia? I think there are some essentially destructive ideas runnig through the Yaweh religions.. like the idea of 'dominion over the earth.." but as I said, other cultural traditions are every bit as scary.

stella01904
July 5th, 2006, 08:43 PM
I think there are some essentially destructive ideas running through the Yaweh religions.. like the idea of 'dominion over the earth.."
Joseph Campbell said essentially the same thing, and I agree.
Stella

zionwood
July 5th, 2006, 09:14 PM
er...hm...i've heard horror stories about people doing awful stuff to pagans for their religon...and i find it horrendous that people would do stuff like that. i hardly care what religion they are.
I have my own story. It's nowhere near as horrendous as some i've read. i was not physically harmed, nor were my pets harmed (thank Goddess!)
The odd thing is, I'm a Christian. and before i say anything else, let me make it clear i do NOT hold this incident against anyone who was not involved. I certainly don't think "all Pagans" are anywhere near as bloody awful as the people i had to deal with were. Of course; otherwise why am i here?
ok ok...i was in HS. Junior year. I try to read the Bible a little every day, and sometimes i can't fit my Bible-reading in before school so...i would bring my Bible to school and read it.
This girl who sits RIGHT NEXT to me in class, 1st period, draws little cartoons (she's a talented artist, i'll grant her that) that say stuff like, "I HATE CHRISTIANS!" and "FED 'EM TO THE LIONS!"
i am NOT making this up! found out later she's a witch. really, would she like it if i wrote "I HATE WITCHES! BURN 'EM AT THE STAKE!" i don't think so!
there were other issues involved in these little drama (i should be over it by now, i know, but it bugs almost every day) I had mistaken another girl (who at the time was my friend) and thought she was a Christian (she went to a Lutheran church and invited me; she went to that church's youth group and invited me; she taught Sunday school for pete's sake! but i found out years later she's agnostic.) and ...made implications that if she was Christian maybe such and such things she was doing she maybe shouldnt be doing. (I don't correct people's behavior any more...i've "learned my lesson"). well she was "creeped out" but she NEVER discussed it with me. My gosh, we used to be best friends; can't she at least TALK with me and let me know she doesn't like it??? A mutual friend let me know and i WROTE A LETTER OF APOLOGY to said agnostic friend.
Now aforementioned witch (call her "Maggie" and sorry if that's any of you guys' real name) and aforementioned agnostic (call her "Tracy") happen to be friends. Now "Tracy" knows i get grossed out by explicit sex talk and she and "Maggie" try to get me to read that sort of thing at lunch.
AND there's this girl i was friends with who was Wiccan (call her "Jane") and there was an article about Wicca in the school paper--and she was in it. At lunch i saw her and said "i saw you in the paper!"--i wasn't gonna say anything else, i was just recognizing that i saw her in the paper. She said "leave me alone" and i said "ok"--i assumed she must've had a bad day or something or wanted to be left alone temporarily.
So i said no more that day (wasn't planning to say anything else anyway), and didn't think she might be mad at me. after all, what had i done? but after that she started ignoring me. wtheck?
AND there's this other girl (call her ...umm..."Etta") who i asked (only once) if she wanted to go to a bible study that met before school. (i would randomly ask people that, occasionally, at the time, didn't make a big deal out of it) she said "no" so i didn't bug her about it.
well...i started getting "bad vibes" from these people so i wondered if i had done something wrong. so i called them up in an attempt tomend fences. they said "No" they weren't mad at me.
Finally, i wrote Tracy another note which, among other subjects asked her (actually it asked IF i could ask her) "how's it going with God?" (see, at that point i still thought she was a Christian. ppl. had asked ME that question before so i didn't think it was bad.)
finally i say "hi" to Tracy after class and she completely ignores me. I keep saying her name, louder and louder. still no response. But she said "hi" to another friend. I lost it and ran out into the hall crying.
after talking with my mom that night i decided i would just leave her alone--she clearly didn't want to talk to me, and i would respect her wishes.
that was on a Friday.
on MONDAY, a mutual friend gives me a letter allegedly from Tracy and her boyfriend. Turns out it's not just from them; it was typed (as i found out later) by Maggie in the wee hours of the morning, and signed by Maggie, Tracy, Tracy's boyfriend, Jane, Etta, Etta's boyfriend--and there was a nasty little note at the bottom from some other guy, what he had to do with this i do not know.) anyway, the letter said stuff like "leave us alone", "stop trying to convert us to your religion" (which--hello!--i wasnt!), "We don't like you", "stop calling us," "don't respond to this letter", "stop hovering around," "if your religion teaches you to hate..." (i DONT hate people because of religion--but Maggie did! Can we say "hypocrisy"?)and so on and so forth--AND it brought up the issue i had APOLOGIZED to Tracy about.
It was entirely tactless. I bawled my eyes out, and have done so more than once since then.
of course i had to sit next to Maggie the next and she was talking about the incident to the girl on the other side. she was saying crap like "she deserved it so much" and "i don't even remember what i wrote.
as if losing 2 friends wasn't bad enough, some of THEIR friends (who used to be friends with me too) stopped talking to me too. Absolutely childish and stupid.
Petty high school stuff, i know. But it's haunted me ever since.
Sometimes i don't know if i can trust anyone anymore.
(Sometimes i wished i had slapped Maggie in her freakin' face. But then i'd get in trouble, it wouldn't be very Christian of me, etc, etc.)
Oh yeah, and i spent a therapy session or two trying to get over it. Sometimes i think those goofballs should pay for those sessions.

PS to those who are still reading (and i don't blame those who aren't; i know this post is pretty freakin' long): i guess really what post "proves", if anything, has nothing to do with pagans and everything to do with stupid stupid stupid high schoolers. and of course not all high schoolers are "like that"--not by a long shot.
PPS: later i found out that some of these people have mental issues like whoa. I actually feel sorry for them. sort of.
PPPS: and today i am hanging out with pagans, etc. online and studying witchery. So there, Maggie!

gurlygurl2004
July 5th, 2006, 09:21 PM
I think in America and other Westernized Christian country tend to have a very theocratic undertone if not right out in your face and I still feel that many are turned on by pagan ideals and religions because of the tyranny associated with Christian nations. I still feel like most pagans started out as rebellious Christians or Jews because of maybe a strict household, etc. And because of that many pagans can be very intolerant and fearful.

If we as a nation didn't push and shove Christianity down our throats and the strictness that is often interpretted than most pagans wouldn't be so intolerant.

Rasenna
July 5th, 2006, 09:49 PM
zionwood:
Sounds like typical high school crap to me...!
~R

zionwood
July 5th, 2006, 09:54 PM
yeah.
i guess i just don't know what's "normal" or "typical".

Infinite Grey
July 5th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Zionwood: I read your story, and can sympathize, even if I can not empathize. I have a my own stories of "woe", though usually it ended with someone with a bloody nose :lol:. In regards to the events that you endured, all I can say is a lot of teen pagans (and adult pagans too) have a chip on their shoulders, and will often view any interaction, however small, with Christians as them trying to convert them. I even see this attitude in some of the most accepting Pagans, and Atheists, to which the Christian only has to mention the bible/God/Jesus and suddenly they're guilty of hate/forcing their faith/bigotry. It's actually little wonder that some Christians can become so anti-other religions when they face a stigmata like this. It is also little wonder that Christians tend to group together the way they do. Of cause this isn't the only reason, ignorance/bigotry/and plain stupidity are often the causes, but then again that is applicable to any religion... Christianity only happens to be the majority.

My personal stories of "woe" have been with atheists for the most part, particularly the ones that have it in their head that having a contrary opinion to the majority equates to "open-mindedness" and woe to anyone that suggests otherwise! (yeah, reeeeeeeeal open-minded 8O). I've had my minor battles with Christians and Pagans alike, and rough them both up equally. Essentially my "Anti" is based on Christians have a tendency to by highly hypocritical, arrogant when they should be humble, violent when they should turn the other cheek... Pagans, well there is very little if no discipline within the pagan ranks, it's like you read a dozen books and suddenly you're a bad ass. I think of modern paganism as the fast food of religions... can't make in another religion? Become a pagan and become a High Priestess in under a year or two! For all the talk of being highly spiritual, I find paganism to be essentially very shallow, marketed to taste good but really lack any long term beneficial value. And then there is Atheist, the whole closed-minded attitude toward open-mindedness... yeesh!

Oh cause these sentiments to do not cover the entirety of any given religious path, they're just the common reasons while I'll take out the stomping boots and leave tread marks on someone's ass.

WiccanGoddess
July 5th, 2006, 10:29 PM
I respect any religion that doesn't push their beliefs unto me.

I think the correct quesiton would be: Are Christains anti-Pagan?

djmixon
July 6th, 2006, 07:30 AM
I respect any religion that doesn't push their beliefs unto me.

I think the correct quesiton would be: Are Christains anti-Pagan?

Good question. I am not...

fangedeshana
July 6th, 2006, 07:50 AM
I think it comes down to not all Christian are anti-Pagan, and not all Pagans are anti-Christian - it's entirely individual according to ones own upbringing and life experience (and ignorance).

If I dont like someone, I dont like them because I think they're an ass. Regardless of religious preference (if any). Even if they are using religion as a guise.

leo482
July 6th, 2006, 07:52 AM
i think it should be the other way round

Stormwt
July 6th, 2006, 08:37 AM
IMO people are just people.

What I mean is that it's natural to be opposed to something (ie a "religion") if you choose to believe what you are told by one extremist group or another. Where you find these sorts of extremes, the person's beliefs are almost irrelevant.

It's sometimes too easy to brainwash yourself if you get a bee in your bonnet about an issue. You can end up with a biased opinion that does not allow you to see the good in your opposed subject or the bad in your own.

Although most "pagans" believe in a balance (ie between the good and bad etc), I know a couple that have gotten so carried away with the propoganda around this type of issue, even that point (balance) won't snap them into seeing the good and bad in both (and all) histories.

people are only human and always have been.

x x x

fangedeshana
July 6th, 2006, 08:48 AM
Thank you Stormwt!

Valnorran
July 6th, 2006, 09:43 AM
Anyway, what are your thoughts?.
This thread definately ties in with the one you started about Pagans being hypocritical. Pagans are as human as anyone else, and that includes making the same mistakes other religious folks make. I particularly like this statement. I've used it on this board myself.

(yet, IMO, maybe they should go to Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc to learn about true persecution and suffering).
This is true. Yet what is the dominant religion in these regions? I agree blaming all of one's problems on another religion is overly simplistic. It's also a symptom of being a fluffy bunny. However, it's equally simplistic to just write off religious persecution. The Abrahamic religions are singled out because, in the entire history of religion, they have probably participated in religious persecutions more than other religions.

It also seems that some 'pagans' will deliberatly go 'out of their way' to insult Christian's and then use that as an 'example' of 'persecution' (i've seen some people call it 'Christian-baiting'). It also bothers me when some may say they 'tolerant' and are 'polytheist' and believe in all the gods, yet refuse to believe that Yahweh exists and some will even bring out 'proof' that Jesus 'didn't exist', and call people who say he 'did exist' 'liars' or just 'fundamentalist historians' (and yet they'll also bitch when someone 'criticizes' their religion e.g. take some Wiccan's who don't like Hutton 'cause he 'destroys' some of their 'favourite theories' about a 'real 'pagan' religion that 'survived' the 'big, bad Christian's', etc or other 'pagans' (not just Wiccan's) who'll complain when someone brings out 'new' evidence that the culture they're reconstructing and admire may not have been all that 'great', that human sacrifice did take place (as it did in every religion, though, including Judaism), etc).
A fine example of this thread being closely bound to the hypocritical Pagans thread, and I'll repeat what I said in that thread: these are classic signs of people being fluffy bunnies (technically known as homo airheadus vulgaris). They annoy the crap out of the rest of the Pagan community, too.

I know that Christian's have done horrible things in the world (and so have Jew's and Muslim's), but people, like Bonewits, seem to think 'pagans' were all 'peaceful and loving', forgetting the persecution of Christian's by the Roman's, the fact that the Roman's persecuted the Jew's many times (raping them, killing them, burning Jewish villages, placing a pigs head on the altar, burning the Temple, rededicating the Temple to Jupiter, 'outlawing' the Judaism and exiling the Jew's from their homeland, etc).
Might be wandering off topic here, but I think the Roman persecutions were more political in nature than religious. They didn't have a problem with who the Jews worshipped. They had a problem with the Jews refusing to diefy the emperor. The Romans also slaughtered the Druids and chopped down their sacred groves. Julius Ceasar clearly states his reason for this was that if anyone in Celtic society were to foment rebellion, it would be the Druids, so he neutralized this potential threat before it could get started.

But, judging by some 'pagan' sites and books, you'd think that every 'evil' in the world is the 'fault' of the Christian's (or the Jew's or the Muslim's), i remember reading one 'pagan' site, which basically 'excused' the Roman persecution of the Jew's and Christian's, by saying worshipping one god was basically the 'same as' atheism (as if there's something wrong with being an atheist or agnostic).
Another classic sign of a fluffy bunny is insisting they have an expertise in history while being fabulously ignorant about it.

So, i don't know why so many 'pagans', especially Wiccan's, have a 'problem' with Christianity and Christian's,
While violent religious persecution is quite rare in the western world, religious discrimination still happens with tiresome frequency. I can't speak for Europe, but here in the U.S. there are a lot of Christian fundamentalists. Granted, they aren't the majority, but they're still a considerable number, and even non-fundie Christians can be surprisingly resistant to the idea of neo-Paganism. I personally watched an Episcopal minister, who was a pretty liberal guy, condemn Wicca. So while it's not (to coin the fluffy bunny phrase) the Burning Times, discrimination - and even outright (though usually non-violent) persecution - does happen, and I believe there is a lesson of caution to be learned.

To me, i don't see the problem in Christian's, Jew's, Muslim's or their religions, i'm a 'pagan', i don't quite have a 'path' yet, but i can admit that Jesus, Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah exist (whether there the same entity or not), i can see angels, demons, saints, etc existing, i don't believe that all demons are 'evil' or angels are all 'good' but i accept they exist, just as i accept that the Greek gods have their supernatural servants and spirits, same with the Norse, Aztec, Sumerian, Canaanite, Kemetic, etc.
Have you come out of the broom closet yet?

I don't see why religion has to 'come into the picture' at all,
Because some people, Pagan and Abrahamic alike, are rather insistent about it.

but do people have to 'hate' Christian's, Jew's, Muslim's, etc just 'cause some people died a thousand years ago (that probably had no relation to you),
But some Pagans are angry with Christians for what some of them are doing right now. Do you know what it's like trying to be Pagan when you're living in a community that is almost all fundie Christian? As for holding a grudge about what happened a thousand years ago, Abrahamic religions far and away outperform Pagans in that respect. Yes, there are some obnoxious fluffies who insist 9 million people died in the Burning Times and all that crap but, just as most Abrahamics aren't fundies, most Pagans aren't fluffies. What they lack in number they make up for in their shrill volume.

I think 'pagans' need to start accepting that the world isn't 'good', at least not all the time, that 'pagans' weren't all 'good and great and 'fluffy'', that just 'maybe', when people converted to Christianity, it may not have been 'forced' all the time, that just maybe, some people wanted a change, maybe in Northern Europe, the religion of Asatru didn't meet everyone's 'spiritual needs', just maybe Christianity did for those people, not every religion meets the needs of everyone (Christianity doesn't either, just so i'm clear), imagine the shock in that!.
I agree.

I think that sites like www.whywiccanssuck.com (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101-20051231re_/http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/)are great because 'pagans' do need a 'shock', to 'wake' them up, so to speak, (BTW, even though it's called whywiccanssuck.com, i think it can apply to many other 'pagans' too).
I prefer Wicca for the Rest of us, but it amounts to the same thing.

I'd really love it, if just once a 'pagan' didn't try and blame all the 'evils' on the Christian's or Jew's or Muslim's, i know that sounds like 'wishful thinking', and i know every religion will have its jerks, but i think 'pagan' religions can at least try and stop being 'anti-Christian',
But that works two ways. Yes, Pagans shouldn't be anri-Christian, but by the same token Christians shouldn't be anti-Pagan. The problem is their holy book tells them to be anti-Pagan.

which for many, is a way of expressing an anti-Middle Eastern 'mentality', for example, one Hellenic recon site i went to, said something like 'Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion and the vast majority of 'Western' European's aren't so it doesn't 'meet their spiritual needs', and the 'original' religions do', which is basically, the 'folkish' arguement that i've seen (and yet i want to see 'proof' that religion's are carried in your blood, who has 'pure' blood, i don't, my dad comes from Ireland, my mum is British but her mum is Jewish and Iraqi, her dad was Turkish, and his mum was Russian, and my granddad on my mum's side was English). If Christianity is only 'for' the Middle East, then how come so many people find great happiness in it (my Irish side of the family are Catholic and don't suddenly want to worship the Irish gods, although a belief in supernatural beings such as the banshee are common as my dad and his brothers heard one), how come African's find comfort in it, or Mexican's, etc.
Well, I admit one reason I turned away from Christianity is that it is based in a culture that is not mine. I have nothing against that culture, but it just doesn't resonate with me the way the European flavor of Paganism does. Same reason I prefer listening to Enya over Middle Eastern music, I guess. It's just a matter of what works for me and what doesn't.

Grimr
July 6th, 2006, 05:49 PM
I am anti Christian.

I am also anti Islam and Judaism.

I see them all as the same Abrahamic religion.


( To others I say it is my opinion and you don't have to like it.)

( I hope the moderators note that this is my opinion and I hope they don't censor me or worse ban me.)


I don't hate the people of the particular beliefs I just don't like the beliefs themselves.

For instance my father is Christian and I love him. I just don't care for his beliefs.

Grimr
July 6th, 2006, 07:27 PM
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2664448#post2664448



For more reasons why I dislike Christianity check out that thread:

Duwayitheru
July 6th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Other.

Some Pagans are, some aren't.

KylalaKitty
July 6th, 2006, 08:59 PM
No, not all pagans are anti-Christianity...I just happen to be one of them ones who are :hahugh: .


It also seems that some 'pagans' will deliberatly go 'out of their way' to insult Christian's and then use that as an 'example' of 'persecution' (i've seen some people call it 'Christian-baiting'). It also bothers me when some may say they 'tolerant' and are 'polytheist' and believe in all the gods, yet refuse to believe that Yahweh exists and some will even bring out 'proof' that Jesus 'didn't exist', and call people who say he 'did exist' 'liars' or just 'fundamentalist historians'

I dont deny that the christian god does exist....I just happen to hate him (and his religion). I'm ok with people who are christian....until they begin trying to push me to become one of them or they dont shut up about their religion.

StephanieAine
July 6th, 2006, 09:02 PM
That is terribly rude.

(referring to the post above mine)

Arion
July 6th, 2006, 11:35 PM
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2664448#post2664448



For more reasons why I dislike Christianity check out that thread:
Oh wow. Just when I thought I was getting over my anger and resentment for the Christian Church, and then I get reminded of the horrors they've done over the past couple thousand years. You can't really blame Pagans for being a tad angry when the Church worked so hard to exterminate Pagan religions.

I go to a Catholic school, and a lot of it makes my toes curl. It all seems so hypcritical. "We've butchered people for centuries, but we have the right to impose our morals on children anyhow." When I hear about things like this, it's hard for me to not be disgusted with it all. Some teachers are crazy-pious, but most are awesome and reasonably open-minded, but I wonder if they know about what their Church has been up to over the centuries and if they would feel the same way about it.

Infinite Grey
July 7th, 2006, 12:27 AM
Oh Boohoo!

Shatril
July 7th, 2006, 09:06 AM
I see Christian bashing all the time on pagan websites. It bothers me, cuz I believe that all faiths are correct. Granted some of the practitioners of all faiths give it some bad reputation, but at the level of the original teachings they are basically preaching the same thing. I love this quote that follows.

"What did that man pick up?" "A piece of the truth" replied Satan. "Oh, that is bad business for you isn't it?" said Satan's companion. "No not at all" replied Satan, "I'm gonna let him organize it"

This is my feeling about all organized religion, not at the faithful level, but certainly at the organization level. I believe that the normal participants are good people for the most part, but at the organizational level I believe it is about greed, avarice, and control. Like they are the brokers of salvation and the only way to avoid eternal damnation. Good lord, what is that about?

Shatril
July 7th, 2006, 09:11 AM
I am anti Christian.

I am also anti Islam and Judaism.

I see them all as the same Abrahamic religion.


( To others I say it is my opinion and you don't have to like it.)

( I hope the moderators note that this is my opinion and I hope they don't censor me or worse ban me.)


I don't hate the people of the particular beliefs I just don't like the beliefs themselves.

For instance my father is Christian and I love him. I just don't care for his beliefs.
More like you are ANTI organized religion. It isn't the original teachings, this is just greed and avarice under the guise of religion, and has nothing to do with the original teachings. That isn't Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism teachings, it is the people within that religion using it to cover up their own greed and avarice. Check further, you shouldn't condemn the faith, but certainly some of the faithful will have some things to account for when they go home.

Shatril

Arion
July 7th, 2006, 12:30 PM
I see Christian bashing all the time on pagan websites. It bothers me, cuz I believe that all faiths are correct. Granted some of the practitioners of all faiths give it some bad reputation, but at the level of the original teachings they are basically preaching the same thing. I love this quote that follows.
The practitioners aren't getting their hateful attitudes out of nowhere. It's easy to blame it all on the people who practice those monothesitic religions and not the religions themselves, but the Bible is full of all sorts of terrors and hateful rules. Stone women if they disobey their husbands, if a man lies with another man it's an abomonation, God hates such-and-such and those who do it shall be put to death. Jesus was an okay guy, but the part where he told his disciples to go out and spread his word to the world bothered me. I mean, people were just fine with their religious beliefs, they didn't need the disciples of some guy who thought he was the son of God coming in to tell them their beliefs are ignorant and sinful and that they should convert to the "one true way." Sure he says "love thy neighbour" but there's a lot of hate in there as well. Christianity contradicts itself about a million times over. The way the Church treats women and gay/lesbians disgusts me as well. When I have kids, I wouldn't want them anywhere near such hateful teachings.

Most of my friends are Catholic, and I love them to bits, but it's usually better for us not to talk religion. We never ever agree, lol. They're not homophobes or anything like that, though. They live in the 21st century where people are realizing the anti-gay, anti-woman stuff is all crap.

I don't know though. As Christians they are supposed to believe homosexuality is wrong and men have greater value than those dirty, unclean things called women. If they don't, they're kind of ignoring what is supposed to be the word of God. You can't just pick-and-choose what you like and what you don't out of a religion. I figure, it's all or nothing. The Bible contradicts itself more than anything, so I guess it's hard to figure out what to think.

Sage Rainsong
July 7th, 2006, 01:22 PM
hmm well I am not anti Christianity in the sense that I am against it but I am not a Christian. I am a polytheist so I tend to view the conflict between God and the Devil to be like any other of the gods who dislike each other. As long as it is not shoved down my throat I could care less. Of course this applies to any religion as well as atheists and agnostics. They can be fundmentalists also. I do believe that christianity has some dangerous ideas like dividing the universe and the spirit worlds into waring halves but just because someone doesn't agree, that isn't an excuse to be intolerant. Christians have done bad things but so have people from every other faith or lack thereof. To quote the Leela from futurama, "Humanity will not make any progress until we all learn to pretend to like each other." Lol!

Grimr
July 7th, 2006, 02:54 PM
More like you are ANTI organized religion. It isn't the original teachings, this is just greed and avarice under the guise of religion, and has nothing to do with the original teachings. That isn't Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism teachings, it is the people within that religion using it to cover up their own greed and avarice. Check further, you shouldn't condemn the faith, but certainly some of the faithful will have some things to account for when they go home.

Shatril

You mean the original teachings that God bestowed the believers to kill and smite the non-believer?

I am sorry but I don't let my apathy,altruism, or tolerance of things get the better of me.

It is perfectly natural to severely dislike and hate somthing.

Especially if such the subject is warranted.

Shanti
July 7th, 2006, 03:07 PM
You mean the original teachings that God bestowed the believers to kill and smite the non-believer?

I am sorry but I don't let my apathy,altruism, or tolerance of things get the better of me.

It is perfectly natural to severely dislike and hate somthing.

Especially if such the subject is warranted. Funny, where did god teach that? Infact god never wrote anything down nor did he/she/whatever hold meetings!
People taught what they believed was gods desires and Jesus taught love.

TaysatWesir
July 7th, 2006, 05:16 PM
I think it comes down to not all Christian are anti-Pagan, and not all Pagans are anti-Christian - it's entirely individual according to ones own upbringing and life experience (and ignorance).

I agree!

Grimr
July 7th, 2006, 05:44 PM
Funny, where did god teach that? Infact god never wrote anything down nor did he/she/whatever hold meetings!
People taught what they believed was gods desires and Jesus taught love.

Umm............ All through out the bible.

I have read the bible from front to back so I do know what I am talking about.

lady_fey
July 7th, 2006, 06:40 PM
Hm some of the replies as to what is the Bible's opinion of certain things... etc ...
The NT teaches outright that those involved in spiritism have no place in the kingdom of God. How one defines spiritism is something else.
While Jesus did teach love, he also taught that he is the Only way. If any one denies him, he will also deny that person.
Persons that did not come to the home of a believer with the teachings of the Lord should be turned away.
Further, the OT teaches that those found within the nation of Israel/Judah worshipping other gods and involving themselves with the nations should be put to death. HOWEVER I have not found any place in the OT or the NT that teaches that followers of either/and YHWH and Jesus have any right or responsibility to go off on a killing or harrassing spree of non followers.
Basically the idea was for such followers to mind their own business, stay out of things that could bring reproach on their god (not meaning to offend anyone with that term, it's just how I see it personally) and live in a way that would leave them blameless at the end of time.
NOW:
Dracon if you have specific scriptures that you might cite for me to change my opinion of this, I will gladly hear them out. But in all my years of Bible readin', while I don't agree with the teachings that basically are quite condemning of those that don't confess Jesus, I have Not come across one that outright did this:

You mean the original teachings that God bestowed the believers to kill and smite the non-believer?

What I have found is, that it does teach that non believers will suffer at end times, but at the hands of God. In the OT, non believers suffered at the hands of the Israelites in certain circumstances that either provoked God's wrath on behalf of his people or in terms of property. (You know the story about Moses and the land of milk and honey, the Exodus etc)But it does not, as far as I have read, give believers the ok for a free for all against non believers to slaughter and mock and hurt and maim.
Also, if one were to look at the OT as mere myth, I think it is possible that other myths from other cultures also have god/desses that at times are quite vengeful and wrathful. That is a maybe on my part, as I am in no way as educated in that deparment as a good number here are.


"Christians" who do this, and have done this in the name of YHWH are not much different than ANY religious who has murdered/mutilated/tortured in the name of their god. Pagan as well as Christian as well as Islamic etc etc etc.


I am getting really, really concerned that the Christians on this board are going to feel like they are not welcome. I might only have been here a short time. But I have had enough time in the last day or so to regret my last post on this thread. I don't agree with specific teachings of the Bible. But I also know enough that people are people.
My personal apologies to any Christians I might have offended.


In the end: why does it matter? If a few pagans are p***** off enough to devote an entire webpage to bashing Christians and other Abrahamic faiths, let it be. Karma will bite them in the arse as well.
I'm cool with people believing what they want. I don't like the idea that someone I really care about is thinking in the back of their head at any given time what my future is, but I can't change it.
Is it possible, no offense David, that threads like this just put us in the position to remind ourselves where we are different rather then seek the common ground? I would really, really, really and one more really, like to believe that there is common ground between all religions, whether or not some would like to admit it.

Again, apologies for my last post on this thread. I don't think it served much of a purpose after reflecting on it. Hoping that the Christians on the board don't get too saddened.
But for the most part, the posts have been really good and thought provoking.

Lady Fey

Shanti
July 7th, 2006, 06:43 PM
Umm............ All through out the bible.

I have read the bible from front to back so I do know what I am talking about.
Umm so do I and god is not the author!!!!
Its people, humans who wrote it.
And they wrote as THEY felt right, for whatever reason.
Its friggen fiction and myth.
Its not a history book!
And no god ever signed it!

Arion
July 7th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Umm so do I and god is not the author!!!!
Its people, humans who wrote it.
And they wrote as THEY felt right, for whatever reason.
Its friggen fiction and myth.
Its not a history book!
And no god ever signed it!
Exactly, but people who believe in it will still be brainwashed by the crap in there.

Shanti
July 7th, 2006, 06:59 PM
Exactly, but people who believe in it will still be brainwashed by the crap in there. But the statement was god teaches hate and killing. God did not teach the bible. God never taught anything to any masses of people. I believe god does touch and teach individuals. Christians believe in Christ. Not all follow the bible.
This is about being anti christian not bible!
I made my case that god did not ever teach killing.

If christian haters would open there hearts a little, they may find not all christians follow this belief in hate.

Theres good sides to christianity, if you give it a chance.

Arion
July 7th, 2006, 08:20 PM
But the statement was god teaches hate and killing. God did not teach the bible. God never taught anything to any masses of people. I believe god does touch and teach individuals. Christians believe in Christ. Not all follow the bible.
This is about being anti christian not bible!
I made my case that god did not ever teach killing.

If christian haters would open there hearts a little, they may find not all christians follow this belief in hate.

Theres good sides to christianity, if you give it a chance.
I don't think anyone is saying anything negative about God, just Christian beliefs. Christianity is centred around the Bible, I don't know of any Christians who don't follow the biblical teachings to some extent. And yes, there are some wonderful Christians out there, but I think the point is that Christianity has some ignorant and hateful laws, whether man-made or God-made, and a lot of Pagans find them offensive. (Not to mention women and homosexuals.)

Shatril
July 7th, 2006, 11:32 PM
I just hate it when people disagree with me. LOLOLOLOL ROFLMAO. Guess I should have known better than to expect anything different.

Shatril:wave: :yayah:

Lady Valkyrie
July 8th, 2006, 12:30 AM
I am a Christian Wiccan... a Christian Witch... and at times I don't like Christians, but then again at times I don't like Wiccans. Both sides can be extremely arrogant. Both sides have extreme fundamentalists who will get in your face and tell you you are wrong for believeing as you do. So forgive me for at time hating both Christians and Wiccans. However I don't hate all Christians or all Wiccans. I am merely referring to those who are extremists. But doesn't every major religion in this world have their extremists that get on everybodies nerves and makes us wish they would just drop off the face of this earth and leave the rest of us alone?

Grimr
July 8th, 2006, 12:40 AM
Hm some of the replies as to what is the Bible's opinion of certain things... etc ...
The NT teaches outright that those involved in spiritism have no place in the kingdom of God. How one defines spiritism is something else.
While Jesus did teach love, he also taught that he is the Only way. If any one denies him, he will also deny that person.
Persons that did not come to the home of a believer with the teachings of the Lord should be turned away.
Further, the OT teaches that those found within the nation of Israel/Judah worshipping other gods and involving themselves with the nations should be put to death. HOWEVER I have not found any place in the OT or the NT that teaches that followers of either/and YHWH and Jesus have any right or responsibility to go off on a killing or harrassing spree of non followers.
Basically the idea was for such followers to mind their own business, stay out of things that could bring reproach on their god (not meaning to offend anyone with that term, it's just how I see it personally) and live in a way that would leave them blameless at the end of time.
NOW:
Dracon if you have specific scriptures that you might cite for me to change my opinion of this, I will gladly hear them out. But in all my years of Bible readin', while I don't agree with the teachings that basically are quite condemning of those that don't confess Jesus, I have Not come across one that outright did this:

What I have found is, that it does teach that non believers will suffer at end times, but at the hands of God. In the OT, non believers suffered at the hands of the Israelites in certain circumstances that either provoked God's wrath on behalf of his people or in terms of property. (You know the story about Moses and the land of milk and honey, the Exodus etc)But it does not, as far as I have read, give believers the ok for a free for all against non believers to slaughter and mock and hurt and maim.
Also, if one were to look at the OT as mere myth, I think it is possible that other myths from other cultures also have god/desses that at times are quite vengeful and wrathful. That is a maybe on my part, as I am in no way as educated in that deparment as a good number here are.


"Christians" who do this, and have done this in the name of YHWH are not much different than ANY religious who has murdered/mutilated/tortured in the name of their god. Pagan as well as Christian as well as Islamic etc etc etc.


I am getting really, really concerned that the Christians on this board are going to feel like they are not welcome. I might only have been here a short time. But I have had enough time in the last day or so to regret my last post on this thread. I don't agree with specific teachings of the Bible. But I also know enough that people are people.
My personal apologies to any Christians I might have offended.


In the end: why does it matter? If a few pagans are p***** off enough to devote an entire webpage to bashing Christians and other Abrahamic faiths, let it be. Karma will bite them in the arse as well.
I'm cool with people believing what they want. I don't like the idea that someone I really care about is thinking in the back of their head at any given time what my future is, but I can't change it.
Is it possible, no offense David, that threads like this just put us in the position to remind ourselves where we are different rather then seek the common ground? I would really, really, really and one more really, like to believe that there is common ground between all religions, whether or not some would like to admit it.

Again, apologies for my last post on this thread. I don't think it served much of a purpose after reflecting on it. Hoping that the Christians on the board don't get too saddened.
But for the most part, the posts have been really good and thought provoking.

Lady Fey





HOWEVER I have not found any place in the OT or the NT that teaches that followers of either/and YHWH and Jesus have any right or responsibility to go off on a killing or harrassing spree of non followers.


I can find you ton of references.

Want me to post some?





Dracon if you have specific scriptures that you might cite for me to change my opinion of this, I will gladly hear them out.


I can sure do that for you.

Later tonight.





I am getting really, really concerned that the Christians on this board are going to feel like they are not welcome.


We are never welcomed to their boards.

Annyka
July 8th, 2006, 12:43 AM
I voted other. I think it depends on the person. There are those pagans who are anti-christian, but a lot of them have had bad experiences with Christianity.

I, however, and many pagans I know are not anti-christian. I have never had a link to Christianity and I have never had any bad experiences (well actually there was one Christian who stalked me - but that's one person).

I often enjoy going to different churchs and temples once every now and then, to learn about other religions - Christianity being one of them..

Also - there are those people who are believers of a blend of Christianity and Pagan faiths, so they could be considered Pagans that are not anti-christian.

I also believe it going the other way - not all Christians are Pagan-haters. Though I do find a majority of them believe pagans are on a damned path and require help.

Grimr
July 8th, 2006, 12:50 AM
Umm so do I and god is not the author!!!!
Its people, humans who wrote it.
And they wrote as THEY felt right, for whatever reason.
Its friggen fiction and myth.
Its not a history book!
And no god ever signed it!

Christianity is based on the Bible.

If the Bible is meaningless stories made by the fantasies of man then ,

" Would that not make the religion Christianity revolving around the Bible to be meaningless too."?

I am sorry I am not sure how that works.

I am not trying to advocate anything here.

I am only trying to understand your logic here.


Is the Bible only holy when people pick small positive pieces of parables out?

I find it ironic that when people read and worship the bible when speaking of the positive parables that in their minds everything is alright.

When however a outside member shows the negative parables of the text they always say the bible was written by men to dissolve them of any responsibility of their faith.



If a religion is revolved around a holy text then it has to accept the responsibility of the more darker passages of the text too.

Grimr
July 8th, 2006, 12:54 AM
Exactly, but people who believe in it will still be brainwashed by the crap in there.

I just look at it this way.

The people who use Christianity in their Christian fervor with violence in their minds are just doing the good word of their Old Testament and New Testament God.

I mean their God in the Old Testament and their Savior of the New Testament condone such teachings from their own lips.

So it is only natural that the followers in their personal inclinations feel like they are doing the word of God.

Crysiira
July 8th, 2006, 12:58 AM
We are never welcomed to their boards.

Even if we aren't, still, isn't one of the ideals of paganism TOLERANCE? So what if we are not welcomed on their boards? They are still more than welcome here because most of us like hearing different opinions, as long as they aren't offensive and accusatory. Are you saying that two wrongs make a right, that because in general pagans aren't welcome on christian boards, we should make them feel unwelcome here? Really.... I just disagree.

Grimr
July 8th, 2006, 12:59 AM
I don't think anyone is saying anything negative about God, just Christian beliefs. Christianity is centred around the Bible, I don't know of any Christians who don't follow the biblical teachings to some extent. And yes, there are some wonderful Christians out there, but I think the point is that Christianity has some ignorant and hateful laws, whether man-made or God-made, and a lot of Pagans find them offensive. (Not to mention women and homosexuals.)




Christianity is centred around the Bible, I don't know of any Christians who don't follow the biblical teachings to some extent.


You hit the nail in the center there my friend.

Christianity would not be a religion or anything at all without their holy texts.

Every Christian follows it to a extent.

Of course the liberal Christians today ignore all the orders from God of hating the nonbelievers.

Today faith has become picking and choosing.

"I will pick all the positive parables out and recite them everyday , but I will ignore the more darker ones to dissolve me and my faith of any responsibility."

Grimr
July 8th, 2006, 01:02 AM
Even if we aren't, still, isn't one of the ideals of paganism TOLERANCE? So what if we are not welcomed on their boards? They are still more than welcome here because most of us like hearing different opinions, as long as they aren't offensive and accusatory. Are you saying that two wrongs make a right, that because in general pagans aren't welcome on christian boards, we should make them feel unwelcome here? Really.... I just disagree.

Tolerance,Apathy and Altruism these days in the world seems to be the answers to everything.

I go by a very simple rule of engagement in my life.

If you treat me like a brother and as a friend then I will treat you with generosity.

If you however make war on me then I shall grab a spear and shield with a defiant rage in my heart.


Christianity has always smited our religion and everyone elses.

What is the point of tolerance?

Crysiira
July 8th, 2006, 01:13 AM
The point of tolerance is peace. I am sick of fighting. I know you rely on history for everything, but set it aside for now and look at your own life. I understand you've been through many difficulties; you are not alone in this. But tell me when you've expressed your religious veiws to a Christian and been attacked. Stop and think about whether it was a percieved attack or an actual attack. In my life, I have never been attacked for my religious views. Questioned, yes; it's led to some interesting conversations; but they were peaceful and informative conversations. THAT is the point of tolerance. To learn and to grow peacefully.

Lady Valkyrie
July 8th, 2006, 01:19 AM
The point of tolerance is peace. I am sick of fighting. I know you rely on history for everything, but set it aside for now and look at your own life. I understand you've been through many difficulties; you are not alone in this. But tell me when you've expressed your religious veiws to a Christian and been attacked. Stop and think about whether it was a percieved attack or an actual attack. In my life, I have never been attacked for my religious views. Questioned, yes; it's led to some interesting conversations; but they were peaceful and informative conversations. THAT is the point of tolerance. To learn and to grow peacefully.

I know you are talking directly to me but here is my 2 cents...

What has happened in your life is your life... your experiences. You can't expect everyone to have the same experiences as you. Personally I have been attacked... no it wasn't percieved... I was blatantly verbally attacked... by both extreme fundamentalist Christians and extreme fundamentalist Wiccans. With that said, you can't possible expect anyone else on this message board to have the same or even similar experiences you have had. Our lives and and experiences are just that... ours and ours alone.

KylalaKitty
July 8th, 2006, 01:19 AM
Even if we aren't, still, isn't one of the ideals of paganism TOLERANCE? So what if we are not welcomed on their boards? They are still more than welcome here because most of us like hearing different opinions, as long as they aren't offensive and accusatory. Are you saying that two wrongs make a right, that because in general pagans aren't welcome on christian boards, we should make them feel unwelcome here? Really.... I just disagree.

Two wrongs make a right? Christians on a Pagan board plain out doesnt make any sense (unless they're keeping an "eye" on the "enemy")

That makes as much sense as a white show on that black channel.

Werent we taught when we were little that the square blocks go in the suare holes and the circle blocks go in the circle hole? Thats the same thing here.

Lady Valkyrie
July 8th, 2006, 01:24 AM
Two wrongs make a right? Christians on a Pagan board plain out doesnt make any sense (unless they're keeping an "eye" on the "enemy")

That makes as much sense as a white show on that black channel.

Werent we taught when we were little that the square blocks go in the suare holes and the circle blocks go in the circle hole? Thats the same thing here.

What about those like me with blended faiths... Christian Wiccans... can we not be on this message board without being accused of ultierior motives? I don't give a rat's rear if a Christian comes to this message board. I don't care if they post on this message board. So long as they understand that no one here is going to tolerate proselytizing.

Crysiira
July 8th, 2006, 01:36 AM
What about those like me with blended faiths... Christian Wiccans... can we not be on this message board without being accused of ultierior motives? I don't give a rat's rear if a Christian comes to this message board. I don't care if they post on this message board. So long as they understand that no one here is going to tolerate proselytizing.

I agree with this completely, this is what I was trying to say, it probably came out pretty garbled. And what I said was not in response to you but in response to Dracon who seems to think that because of the wars of the past, pagans and christians should not be able to get along now, that tolerance is stupid and complacent. He claimed that pagans are not welcome on christian boards, so why should we make them welcome on our boards? To me, that claim is ridiculous, I just don't understand.... to put it plainly, why can't we all get along?? :ugh:

Vincent Verthaine
July 8th, 2006, 01:39 AM
What is the point of tolerance?

Need you really ask?
I have my own well documented beef with christianity,but I love all the people here regardless.To me your all discordians,whether you admit it or not.8O 8O 8O

We can't berate them for their xenophobia,all the while exibiting ours.

My dad once told me,long time ago,that for me to make it in this world,I have to try twice as hard as the white guys.

I ain't done too shaby with myself.

We pagans need to work twice as hard to make it in a world where the two biggest religions in the world are about ready to duke it out.

Cross communication is the key.
The christian pagans are just as important here as anyone else is.
Different points of view are necessary in ones Journey.

We can't blame the christian pagans for the actions of their more fundamentalist christian brethren.

But we sure can ask them to stand up to them when they know their brethren are in the wrong.

I understand one of the big problems here.

It's the ol'e "who's side will they be on if the shit ever hit's the fan again".
Should anything like the Burning Times(unlikely,yes,but don't tell a discordian that it can't happen again) happens again,will they be burning on the stake next to me,or tossing more wood on mine?

I admit I had that little thought in the back of my head (when i first started encountering christian pagans)that said," Christian pagans,that sounds like a case of "Malibu's Most Wanted" to me".

I really had mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand,as a discordian,they have a right to their insanity as I
had to mine.As far as i'm concerned ,that between them and Eris
(or their name for Her).
On the other hand, I also thought"this is just great,first they steal all our ideas,our cultures,now they want to become us".

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

You now,I had the same exact problems when "wiggers" started popping up.

But I got to know a few christian pagans,and even though we may have intense debates,they are some of the nices people I know.(and one of them has one hell of a weed connection.shhhh.)
Totally sincere in their beliefs.I respect thatI respect them,and they respect me.

A lot of us have a legitimate beef with christianity,but that doesn't necessarily make us anti-christian.
All we ask is that they get their act together.Because even though they may be of different paths,the Christian-Pagans are still part of the Body of Christ.

They need to fight those who would pervert the Word in the Name of Jesus.

They need to take back Jesus from and control of people like Pat Robertson,Jerry Falwell,Ann Coulter,George W.Bush and the rest of the HighPriesthood of the Cult of Doom and Dumb(tm) and give it back to all mankind,where HE truly belongs.

These are the people who are Sinning in the Name of Jesus.

When we ask christianity not to continue commiting the same sins,we have to make sure we are not comminting our own.

That,is the point of tolerence.

Crysiira
July 8th, 2006, 01:39 AM
I know you are talking directly to me but here is my 2 cents...

What has happened in your life is your life... your experiences. You can't expect everyone to have the same experiences as you. Personally I have been attacked... no it wasn't percieved... I was blatantly verbally attacked... by both extreme fundamentalist Christians and extreme fundamentalist Wiccans. With that said, you can't possible expect anyone else on this message board to have the same or even similar experiences you have had. Our lives and and experiences are just that... ours and ours alone.

You are very right about this, but what I'm trying to say, and I admit I'm not doing a very good job of it but it's past my bedtime... what I'm trying to say is that you need to base your experiences with members of a certain religion on an individual basis. If someone cuts you off on the highway, and you notice they have a cross bumpers sticker, do you avoid all cars with cross bumper stickers? Of course, I'm sure you're not referring to simple cut-offs but occasions where the cross bumper sticker car crashes right into you, and then it's understandable to want to avoid all cars with cross bumper stickers... but can you base an entire religion on what a few people do to you? I try not to. That's all I'm trying to say.

Grimr
July 8th, 2006, 01:41 AM
The point of tolerance is peace. I am sick of fighting. I know you rely on history for everything, but set it aside for now and look at your own life. I understand you've been through many difficulties; you are not alone in this. But tell me when you've expressed your religious veiws to a Christian and been attacked. Stop and think about whether it was a percieved attack or an actual attack. In my life, I have never been attacked for my religious views. Questioned, yes; it's led to some interesting conversations; but they were peaceful and informative conversations. THAT is the point of tolerance. To learn and to grow peacefully.

I have had many negative tidings with Christianity to know not to tolerate anything.

Crysiira
July 8th, 2006, 01:59 AM
I have had many negative tidings with Christianity to know not to tolerate anything.

I understand your opinion, and I know I can't change your mind on this. I am probably pretty lucky in the fact that I haven't had as much negativity as the rest of you seem to have had. I have the whole rest of my life to make up for that.....
All I'm saying is that, even if you yourself cannot stand to tolerate those of Christian faith, does it really offend you that other pagans can? Why is this so offensive to you?

Zoey
July 8th, 2006, 02:01 AM
I think it a matter of perspective. Some pagan can have an anti-Christian attitude if they've had a bad experience with them, but the opposite can be true as well. Many pagans don't have a negative view on Christianity and choose to live and let live, just as some Christians do the same. But sure, there are some 'bad apples' that put a blanket judgment over any type of group.

Grimr
July 8th, 2006, 02:13 AM
I understand your opinion, and I know I can't change your mind on this. I am probably pretty lucky in the fact that I haven't had as much negativity as the rest of you seem to have had. I have the whole rest of my life to make up for that.....
All I'm saying is that, even if you yourself cannot stand to tolerate those of Christian faith, does it really offend you that other pagans can? Why is this so offensive to you?

I am all too familiar with history to know the lines of tolerance.

Roman pagan Emporers made treaties with declarations of peace and coexistence with Christians in the late period only to be slaughtered.

The Norse pagans made peace with the Christians and intermarried with them only to be persecuted because of their ancestoral faith and strong will in the Gods.

Both great peoples became the lambs of the slaughtered.

Many other cultures and faiths after them.

Crysiira
July 8th, 2006, 02:42 AM
So what you are saying is, that by tolerating Christians we are inviting ourselves to be slaughtered. Or, more likely in this day and age, have our religious rights taken away from us.
What exactly is your supposed solution?

Tadrith
July 8th, 2006, 03:02 AM
I have had many negative tidings with Christianity to know not to tolerate anything.


This is the problem with the world. People, through history, sympathize with those who are persecuted and come to a point where they, themselves, feel persecuted. What's done is done, get over it. If you cannot give forgiveness to a wrong commited a thousand years ago, to which it will never impact you, you have no part for a better future; you would only cling to the past and victimize yourself. A lack of tolerance causes strife and wars and it escalates into perpetual self-destruction.

Frankly, yes, many pagans are anti-christian because they feel, Gods know how, as if they themselves are being persecuted. Frankly, if people feel that what they experience now as persecution, you need to grow up and learn a realistic definition ofpersecution. Having your life threatened, if not taken, is persecution; being mocked and belittled for your beliefs is not.

Infinite Grey
July 8th, 2006, 04:40 AM
whether or not the Bible is product of a collection of men and women with over active imaginations or the word of Yahweh personified is actually irrelevant... especially for pagans, as not one pagan path could hold up against the same criticism.

The Bible has records of some horrendous events (real or fictitious) in the old testament, and so even in New Testament. Like it or not, the key doctrine of Christianity is the only way to God is through Jesus, and thus into heaven. The New Testament does not condone violence at all, even if it did have it's violent moment (though those were mostly regarding Martyrdom). The evil acts committed in the name of Christianity were largely done for political reasons rather than spiritual. It is a tragedy that it has happen, both to the victims and the religion its self. But it's hardly unique to Christianity.

Anti-Christians usually talk through their asses, having no real understanding of history or the reasons behind events... and are quite happy to hatchet events to suit their purposes. Probably the most common example of this would be the crusades, which despite people's undying ignorance of this period, had actually very little to do with Christianity or Islam as a religions, and everything to do with political maneuverings...

Shatril
July 8th, 2006, 08:53 AM
I have had many negative tidings with Christianity to know not to tolerate anything.
Your life must be hell. I support you right to feel how you do, however. Unless you are physically attacked what is the point of holding this much intolerance in your heart. Even though you don't see it now, holding onto this type of thing will ultimately contribute to physical problems in your life. Relax, so far we are fine. If we teach love, then it must incorporate all beings. I don't suggest that we must like what they stand for, but loving them is the right thing to do. I'm not sure that I understand what your rage is about, and I certainly don't like your attitude here, however, just because I don't understand does not stop me from loving you just the same. And, of course, being human I want you to believe exactly as I do, but you are certainly welcome to believe how you want. This very intolerance is the thing that can make normally good people participate in a holy war, caused by the greed and avarice of leaders who play on this very intolerance. This is exactly the kind of attitude that Bush plays on constantly in defense of his actions in Iraq. I believe in tolerance of all belief system, cuz at heart I believe that most people believe in the greatest truth "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "Ya reap what ya sow"

Having said all that, I don't suggest that you attack me or mine physically, cuz I will rip your head off and stuff it down your throat, or die trying. There are dark entities out there that will, for no apparent reason try to hurt us, but generally you can trace their attacks to you having something they want (greed, envy, avarice or some other afflictive emotion). These need to be dealt with on an individual basis, and not draw in religion, ethnic origin, or any other generality that draws more that the offending party into the conflict.

Just remember, we have minds to think and reason. Look around. How many people to you see who actually use their heads for anything but to hold their ears apart? We need to start thinking about the impact of our words, and how they affect the rest of the world’s beliefs about us, whether it is our beliefs, sexual orientation, or ethnic background. We need to always take the high road, regardless of the slings and arrows of those who have differing opinions than ours. It will make us feel better in the long run, regardless of the responses we elicit from others.

Love, Shatril

Morr
July 8th, 2006, 09:17 AM
I am all too familiar with history to know the lines of tolerance.

Roman pagan Emporers made treaties with declarations of peace and coexistence with Christians in the late period only to be slaughtered.

The Norse pagans made peace with the Christians and intermarried with them only to be persecuted because of their ancestoral faith and strong will in the Gods.

Both great peoples became the lambs of the slaughtered.

Many other cultures and faiths after them.



So?

Many people were slaughtered for MANY reasons, in many cultures, in many different ages all over the world.

This is the nature of HUNANITY not of CHRISTIANITY.

I know plenty of Christians and Jews who are open to my beliefs and do not condem me.

Here's a totally different example --

Half of my family was wiped out by the Nazies during the Holocaust.
Does that mean I will kill or hurt or disrespect every German or Austrian I meet? No.
Does that mean I'd never go to travel and visit in those countries? No.

While my family always looks with suspicious eyes at anything German, they certainly wont hurt or not tolerate a German person if they meet one.

Because ya know what? Whats the point? Why stoop to hate and disrespect?

*shrugs*

Every society and every religion has its extremeists. Its unfortunate that such ignorance exists at all, but then again, the nauture of humanity is often mob mentality which drives people to do stupid thing that if they would be given a chance, to think on their own, would probably not do it.

Thankfully, since the age of Enlightenment, and since the Western world has realized that the individual and that human rights and freedom of religion are valuble rights -- Society has come around, and still is coming around.

While it will never be perfect, why contribute to the collective hate and lack of tolerence in the world? Better to be indifferent and happy with yourself and confident in your path to be anti-Christian.

By responding through hate like this, you are just reacting to the Christian fundies' stupid crap and are letting them control you still.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

lady_fey
July 8th, 2006, 09:24 AM
Yes Dracon. I would be much interested in reading those citations along with the context. Meaning a good understanding of the entire book that you are reading and the chapters and verse you cite. If I'm wrong, Dracon, I'd like to know. I've been studying the bible now for quite a few years. And still have not completely set it down. So I would be very interested in your take on some scriptures.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Lady Fey

Lunacie
July 8th, 2006, 10:59 AM
A lot of us have a legitimate beef with christianity,but that doesn't necessarily make us anti-christian.




Frankly, if people feel that what they experience now as persecution, you need to grow up and learn a realistic definition ofpersecution. Having your life threatened, if not taken, is persecution; being mocked and belittled for your beliefs is not.


Persecution is more than the threat of physical violence or death. It can and does include being fired, having a business burned to the ground, having pets and livestock killed, having our children taken away by the courts because we're not Christian... many things like this have been done and they do amount to persecution.

Christians are certainly in the majority in the USA and hold the purse strings from government spending down through little Mom and Pop stores and in our school systems. Too many Christians have been taught to fear and even hate Pagans. Meanwhile, too many Pagans have been discriminated against and fired from jobs and taken to court by Christians. Yet, we're supposed to be 'tolerant' of them and their behavior because it's a 'Pagan principle'. :geez:



My main thought here is this: there are some Christian webpages that bash Pagans and forment hated and fear of Pagans. And there are also some webpages that bash Christians and forment fear and hatred of Christians. People do some dumb stuff, sometimes because of their religions beliefs, sometimes in spite of their religious beliefs. And if you're looking for that kind of behavior, there is plenty of it to be found.

However, if you're looking for Christians who honestly try to treat others - even Pagans - as they would like to be treated, and try to love their neighbors and try to be good people, you'll find them. And if you're looking for Pagans who just want to be treated fairly and live in peace with their neighbors and the world, you'll find them too. You'll find what you're looking for.

No, one doesn't have to sign the "Anti-Christian Pledge" in order to become a Pagan.

Vincent Verthaine
July 8th, 2006, 02:07 PM
I try to be tolerent not because "paganism" tell me I should be,but because it is inherent in me,and I feel it is the right thing to do.

Personally,I don't give a crap what paganism,or any other religion says I should do.Why do you think I'm an Erisian.

I don't need others telling me what "God" wants,when I can ask HER myself.

In my opinion,if a person is tolerent because their religion tells them to be,that is not true and sincere tolerence.

I'd rather a person be straight up and honest with me,rather then say they are tolerent to my face ,and hate my guts behind my back.

Silverfire Darkmoon
July 8th, 2006, 02:49 PM
I am actually getting tired of saying this, but it's obviously still necessary.
Shut the hell up.
If you're going to be a whiny little bitch and scream bloody murder every time someone looks askance at you, POSSIBLY because you're wearing a pentacle necklace but POSSIBLY for some entirely unrelated reason, then for the love of God, go find another religion, culture, or society that will be accepting of your paranoid ranting and poisonous complaining, because almost every Wiccan and pagan I know who knows their stuff will NOT tolerate it.
The next time I hear a violently out-of-context Bible quote from someone who hasn't even read it, or another stupid, misinformed, Murrayite or Z. Budapest-style 'never again the burning times' rant, someone will get punched.
GROW THE HELL UP and GET OVER IT. Christ.

mystic_zoe
July 8th, 2006, 03:24 PM
I am actually getting tired of saying this, but it's obviously still necessary.
Shut the hell up.
If you're going to be a whiny little bitch and scream bloody murder every time someone looks askance at you, POSSIBLY because you're wearing a pentacle necklace but POSSIBLY for some entirely unrelated reason, then for the love of God, go find another religion, culture, or society that will be accepting of your paranoid ranting and poisonous complaining, because almost every Wiccan and pagan I know who knows their stuff will NOT tolerate it.
The next time I hear a violently out-of-context Bible quote from someone who hasn't even read it, or another stupid, misinformed, Murrayite or Z. Budapest-style 'never again the burning times' rant, someone will get punched.
GROW THE HELL UP and GET OVER IT. Christ.

all im gona say is that i totally agree with this comment!

Lunacie
July 8th, 2006, 06:56 PM
Hmmm, it seems to be a stage that many new Pagans go through, part of the questioning and comparing what's inside to what's outside. Most do "grow up and get the hell over it."

Most of the Wiccans and Pagans I know have been through their own period of "paranoid ranting and poisonous complaining" and understand that with a little encouragement and plain talk, we all grow past this stage in our spiritual growth. But maybe that's because I won't hang around those who heap scorn and abuse on newbie Pagans.

Day-um, maybe I should become a Buddhist, I get so tired of people pointing out the flaws in other people and ranting about that.

Infinite Grey
July 8th, 2006, 07:56 PM
Hmmm, it seems to be a stage that many new Pagans go through, part of the questioning and comparing what's inside to what's outside. Most do "grow up and get the hell over it."

Most of the Wiccans and Pagans I know have been through their own period of "paranoid ranting and poisonous complaining" and understand that with a little encouragement and plain talk, we all grow past this stage in our spiritual growth. But maybe that's because I won't hang around those who heap scorn and abuse on newbie Pagans.

Day-um, maybe I should become a Buddhist, I get so tired of people pointing out the flaws in other people and ranting about that.

mmmm It's a psychological thing, when people "convert" or move over to another "team", they often go through a period to which they feel the need to discredit their former associations. You see it in most situations, sports, politics, social groups, even book clubs. It's especially common when a large majority are bagging the other "team/group/religion" and it becomes an issue of acceptance. For a lot of people it makes the transition easier, and reaffirms their new allegiances. Of cause it isn't necessary, and often indicates a lack of mental and ethical maturity (this is not exclusive to age).

But then again, there are those whom love to play the victim. They'll subconsciously look for a minority or unpopular culture so they can be justified in carrying their imaginary cross.


I am actually getting tired of saying this, but it's obviously still necessary.
Shut the hell up.
If you're going to be a whiny little bitch and scream bloody murder every time someone looks askance at you, POSSIBLY because you're wearing a pentacle necklace but POSSIBLY for some entirely unrelated reason, then for the love of God, go find another religion, culture, or society that will be accepting of your paranoid ranting and poisonous complaining, because almost every Wiccan and pagan I know who knows their stuff will NOT tolerate it.
The next time I hear a violently out-of-context Bible quote from someone who hasn't even read it, or another stupid, misinformed, Murrayite or Z. Budapest-style 'never again the burning times' rant, someone will get punched.
GROW THE HELL UP and GET OVER IT. Christ.

I'll hold them, you punch... and then we'll switch places http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/box2.gif

Shanti
July 8th, 2006, 08:02 PM
Imagine all the people, living life in peace...

~goes into the hippy mode~
http://forum.pcastuces.com/images/smile_peaceandlove.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/hells/11_12_10.gif
http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/happy/057.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/barraca/village8mf.gif
http://photobucket.com/albums/v480/ashlynmm/smileys2/th_bloww.gif

Tadrith
July 8th, 2006, 08:47 PM
~goes into the hippy mode~

Whoa, all of a sudden I'm extremely hungry... odd :hehehehe:

Lunacie
July 8th, 2006, 09:00 PM
Yes, some people are more comfortable with the role of 'victim'. Why does that make you angry?

Infinite Grey
July 8th, 2006, 09:04 PM
Yes, some people are more comfortable with the role of 'victim'. Why does that make you angry?

In my case, well it doesn't make me angry... I feel most comfortable as the victimizer... so it all works out in the end http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/kngt.gif

Lunacie
July 8th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Peacock, thanks for the explanation.

I guess I wasn't very clear, my question was actually directed to Silverfire Darkmoon.

Infinite Grey
July 8th, 2006, 09:40 PM
Peacock, thanks for the explanation.

I guess I wasn't very clear, my question was actually directed to Silverfire Darkmoon.

I had no doubt, but I like answering questions in general... even if my answers are rarely helpful

gurlygurl2004
July 8th, 2006, 09:41 PM
The Abrahamic religions are singled out because, in the entire history of religion, they have probably participated in religious persecutions more than other religions.

This is true except Jews. They are an exception, they are the original and only Abrahamic religion that has a long history of persecution and I don't just mean the Holocaust and there's still plenty of anti semectism in this world.

Astara Seague
July 8th, 2006, 11:11 PM
I think it depends on the pagan.. or the christen :whatmewor

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 12:53 AM
I agree with this completely, this is what I was trying to say, it probably came out pretty garbled. And what I said was not in response to you but in response to Dracon who seems to think that because of the wars of the past, pagans and christians should not be able to get along now, that tolerance is stupid and complacent. He claimed that pagans are not welcome on christian boards, so why should we make them welcome on our boards? To me, that claim is ridiculous, I just don't understand.... to put it plainly, why can't we all get along?? :ugh:





why can't we all get along??


That Utopia will never exist.........

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 12:56 AM
So what you are saying is, that by tolerating Christians we are inviting ourselves to be slaughtered. Or, more likely in this day and age, have our religious rights taken away from us.
What exactly is your supposed solution?

Grow stronger and better as Polytheists and Spiritualists with the eventual overshadowing of Christianity.

Grow to such a force that they will never be able to have their Relevation.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 12:58 AM
This is the problem with the world. People, through history, sympathize with those who are persecuted and come to a point where they, themselves, feel persecuted. What's done is done, get over it. If you cannot give forgiveness to a wrong commited a thousand years ago, to which it will never impact you, you have no part for a better future; you would only cling to the past and victimize yourself. A lack of tolerance causes strife and wars and it escalates into perpetual self-destruction.

Frankly, yes, many pagans are anti-christian because they feel, Gods know how, as if they themselves are being persecuted. Frankly, if people feel that what they experience now as persecution, you need to grow up and learn a realistic definition ofpersecution. Having your life threatened, if not taken, is persecution; being mocked and belittled for your beliefs is not.

I understand what you say.

One can not however ignore the core beliefs of the Abrahamic beliefs in their view of us.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:01 AM
whether or not the Bible is product of a collection of men and women with over active imaginations or the word of Yahweh personified is actually irrelevant... especially for pagans, as not one pagan path could hold up against the same criticism.

The Bible has records of some horrendous events (real or fictitious) in the old testament, and so even in New Testament. Like it or not, the key doctrine of Christianity is the only way to God is through Jesus, and thus into heaven. The New Testament does not condone violence at all, even if it did have it's violent moment (though those were mostly regarding Martyrdom). The evil acts committed in the name of Christianity were largely done for political reasons rather than spiritual. It is a tragedy that it has happen, both to the victims and the religion its self. But it's hardly unique to Christianity.

Anti-Christians usually talk through their asses, having no real understanding of history or the reasons behind events... and are quite happy to hatchet events to suit their purposes. Probably the most common example of this would be the crusades, which despite people's undying ignorance of this period, had actually very little to do with Christianity or Islam as a religions, and everything to do with political maneuverings...






whether or not the Bible is product of a collection of men and women with over active imaginations or the word of Yahweh personified is actually irrelevant... especially for pagans, as not one pagan path could hold up against the same criticism.

The Bible has records of some horrendous events (real or fictitious) in the old testament, and so even in New Testament. Like it or not, the key doctrine of Christianity is the only way to God is through Jesus, and thus into heaven. The New Testament does not condone violence at all, even if it did have it's violent moment (though those were mostly regarding Martyrdom). The evil acts committed in the name of Christianity were largely done for political reasons rather than spiritual. It is a tragedy that it has happen, both to the victims and the religion its self. But it's hardly unique to Christianity.


How can you ignore the fact that in their core belief structure their God desires the destruction of the nonbelievers calling them the infidels?


That is somthing too real for me to not ignore.

History also shows the actions of such beliefs.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:12 AM
Your life must be hell. I support you right to feel how you do, however. Unless you are physically attacked what is the point of holding this much intolerance in your heart. Even though you don't see it now, holding onto this type of thing will ultimately contribute to physical problems in your life. Relax, so far we are fine. If we teach love, then it must incorporate all beings. I don't suggest that we must like what they stand for, but loving them is the right thing to do. I'm not sure that I understand what your rage is about, and I certainly don't like your attitude here, however, just because I don't understand does not stop me from loving you just the same. And, of course, being human I want you to believe exactly as I do, but you are certainly welcome to believe how you want. This very intolerance is the thing that can make normally good people participate in a holy war, caused by the greed and avarice of leaders who play on this very intolerance. This is exactly the kind of attitude that Bush plays on constantly in defense of his actions in Iraq. I believe in tolerance of all belief system, cuz at heart I believe that most people believe in the greatest truth "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "Ya reap what ya sow"

Having said all that, I don't suggest that you attack me or mine physically, cuz I will rip your head off and stuff it down your throat, or die trying. There are dark entities out there that will, for no apparent reason try to hurt us, but generally you can trace their attacks to you having something they want (greed, envy, avarice or some other afflictive emotion). These need to be dealt with on an individual basis, and not draw in religion, ethnic origin, or any other generality that draws more that the offending party into the conflict.

Just remember, we have minds to think and reason. Look around. How many people to you see who actually use their heads for anything but to hold their ears apart? We need to start thinking about the impact of our words, and how they affect the rest of the world’s beliefs about us, whether it is our beliefs, sexual orientation, or ethnic background. We need to always take the high road, regardless of the slings and arrows of those who have differing opinions than ours. It will make us feel better in the long run, regardless of the responses we elicit from others.

Love, Shatril





Your life must be hell



It can be a living one.........





Unless you are physically attacked what is the point of holding this much intolerance in your heart.


Too much tolerance can be just as much destructive if not more so then intolerance.

I have looked into both systems of thought to know this for myself.





Even though you don't see it now, holding onto this type of thing will ultimately contribute to physical problems in your life.


Already there.

Not because of my general beliefs or views but in part of the wonderful world we live in.

I am a man who is stabbed and thrown into the fire everyday.

I will not however go down weeping.





This is exactly the kind of attitude that Bush plays on constantly in defense of his actions in Iraq. I believe in tolerance of all belief system, cuz at heart I believe that most people believe in the greatest truth "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "Ya reap what ya sow"


Please don't compare my views to Bush.

You really don't entirely know my views.

Bush is a monster. I don't condone any of his actions.






Having said all that, I don't suggest that you attack me or mine physically, cuz I will rip your head off and stuff it down your throat, or die trying.



Promises Promises.

I have seen to many monsters and evils in my life that I am afraid of no human being.




These need to be dealt with on an individual basis, and not draw in religion, ethnic origin, or any other generality that draws more that the offending party into the conflict.

Explain that post.

I thought it was interesting.




We need to start thinking about the impact of our words, and how they affect the rest of the world’s beliefs about us, whether it is our beliefs, sexual orientation, or ethnic background. We need to always take the high road, regardless of the slings and arrows of those who have differing opinions than ours. It will make us feel better in the long run, regardless of the responses we elicit from others.

Sounds like a Utopian novel.

Utopias never happen and in real life when people try to make little Utopias there is always a human being or group of people that fall to the blade of the sword as a consequence.

Of course we will never hear their voices.

You always hear the voices ranting , progress!, progress! , progress!


In their speaking of words of progress in the shadows there is always suffering.





Love, Shatril



Thanx for your post , but I must severely disagree.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:17 AM
So?

Many people were slaughtered for MANY reasons, in many cultures, in many different ages all over the world.

This is the nature of HUNANITY not of CHRISTIANITY.

I know plenty of Christians and Jews who are open to my beliefs and do not condem me.

Here's a totally different example --

Half of my family was wiped out by the Nazies during the Holocaust.
Does that mean I will kill or hurt or disrespect every German or Austrian I meet? No.
Does that mean I'd never go to travel and visit in those countries? No.

While my family always looks with suspicious eyes at anything German, they certainly wont hurt or not tolerate a German person if they meet one.

Because ya know what? Whats the point? Why stoop to hate and disrespect?

*shrugs*

Every society and every religion has its extremeists. Its unfortunate that such ignorance exists at all, but then again, the nauture of humanity is often mob mentality which drives people to do stupid thing that if they would be given a chance, to think on their own, would probably not do it.

Thankfully, since the age of Enlightenment, and since the Western world has realized that the individual and that human rights and freedom of religion are valuble rights -- Society has come around, and still is coming around.

While it will never be perfect, why contribute to the collective hate and lack of tolerence in the world? Better to be indifferent and happy with yourself and confident in your path to be anti-Christian.

By responding through hate like this, you are just reacting to the Christian fundies' stupid crap and are letting them control you still.

Of course, that is just my opinion.




While my family always looks with suspicious eyes at anything German, they certainly wont hurt or not tolerate a German person if they meet one.


That is good because I am German and Austrian.



This is the nature of HUNANITY not of CHRISTIANITY.


How can you ignore the inherent nature of their core belief structure?






By responding through hate like this, you are just reacting to the Christian fundies' stupid crap and are letting them control you still.

Of course, that is just my opinion



I like to view it as me learning from history and applying such view points in present time.

I know my views here are not very popular , but in my life they are very much real.

I suppose there is no way for us to come to agreement and perhaps the only way is to come to a honorable draw or disagreement.

Infinite Grey
July 9th, 2006, 01:21 AM
How can you ignore the fact that in their core belief structure their God desires the destruction of the nonbelievers calling them the infidels?


What are you talking about? Do you even know anything about Christianity? If you did, you would know that one of their core belief structures is to CONVERT unbelievers, not destroy them... BIG difference.



That is somthing too real for me to not ignore.

History also shows the actions of such beliefs.

I agree, you're imaginary Christian doctrines would be hard to ignore... but if you can find one scripture in the New Testament, IN context, that promotes death and destruction of ANYONE... I may see fit to take you a little more seriously

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:24 AM
Yes Dracon. I would be much interested in reading those citations along with the context. Meaning a good understanding of the entire book that you are reading and the chapters and verse you cite. If I'm wrong, Dracon, I'd like to know. I've been studying the bible now for quite a few years. And still have not completely set it down. So I would be very interested in your take on some scriptures.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Lady Fey



http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=132443&page=6


Post #54 and on is the words of Jesus in the New Testament.

I can also post the words of his desciples for you later.

If you want the Old Testament I can do that too.

These things will take time.

For now I guess that is enough for you to get started on.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:27 AM
What are you talking about? Do you even know anything about Christianity? If you did, you would know that one of their core belief structures is to CONVERT unbelievers, not destroy them... BIG difference.



I agree, you're imaginary Christian doctrines would be hard to ignore... but if you can find one scripture in the New Testament, IN context, that promotes death and destruction of ANYONE... I may see fit to take you a little more seriously

I know alot of scriptures.

How many do you know?

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:29 AM
What are you talking about? Do you even know anything about Christianity? If you did, you would know that one of their core belief structures is to CONVERT unbelievers, not destroy them... BIG difference.



I agree, you're imaginary Christian doctrines would be hard to ignore... but if you can find one scripture in the New Testament, IN context, that promotes death and destruction of ANYONE... I may see fit to take you a little more seriously






but if you can find one scripture in the New Testament, IN context, that promotes death and destruction of ANYONE I may see fit to take you a little more seriously



Matthew.



13:41-13:43


Matthew


3:29




Mark

16:16


Luke


19:27


A few to get you started.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:34 AM
I am actually getting tired of saying this, but it's obviously still necessary.
Shut the hell up.
If you're going to be a whiny little bitch and scream bloody murder every time someone looks askance at you, POSSIBLY because you're wearing a pentacle necklace but POSSIBLY for some entirely unrelated reason, then for the love of God, go find another religion, culture, or society that will be accepting of your paranoid ranting and poisonous complaining, because almost every Wiccan and pagan I know who knows their stuff will NOT tolerate it.
The next time I hear a violently out-of-context Bible quote from someone who hasn't even read it, or another stupid, misinformed, Murrayite or Z. Budapest-style 'never again the burning times' rant, someone will get punched.
GROW THE HELL UP and GET OVER IT. Christ.


(I am shaking in my little boots..........


Really........)........ Actually your threats are futile and I find them humorous.


Also I consider myself a Polytheist Pantheist and somewhat of a Shaman in many regards.

I am not wiccan..........


( Just wanted to publicly state that for the record.)

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:37 AM
all im gona say is that i totally agree with this comment!

Had I made any threats I would of been banned ages ago.

Always ironic how the tolerant become intolerant with anything that contradicts their beliefs.

This only strengthens my resolve.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:43 AM
Hmmm, it seems to be a stage that many new Pagans go through, part of the questioning and comparing what's inside to what's outside. Most do "grow up and get the hell over it."

Most of the Wiccans and Pagans I know have been through their own period of "paranoid ranting and poisonous complaining" and understand that with a little encouragement and plain talk, we all grow past this stage in our spiritual growth. But maybe that's because I won't hang around those who heap scorn and abuse on newbie Pagans.

Day-um, maybe I should become a Buddhist, I get so tired of people pointing out the flaws in other people and ranting about that.

Yes anything that does not fit with conventional form of thought is most obviously immature.


Those dam free thinkers.

We should make it illegal for them to speak anything.

Then we all can be blissfully tolerant.

Infinite Grey
July 9th, 2006, 01:45 AM
Matthew: Jesus says.

7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



Matthew: Jesus says.

7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

WAY out of context! IF you read the whole passage Jesus is referring to afterlife punishment of false prophets and their followers... if you read the first part of this passage you'll find it says.
"Matthew 7:1-30 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? "

Geez... he's a BEAST! :lol:


Matthew: Jesus says.

8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
Again, he is referring to AFTERLIFE punishment, if you knew Christianity you would know that their main Doctrine is to prevent this from happening to people.




Matthew Jesus says.

10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you

10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Again, no violence...



Matthew Jesus says.

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. I'll give you this one, as it would take quite a lot of thelogoical chatter to clear it up.





Matthew Jesus says.

11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Again afterlife punishment... simple really



Matthew Jesus says.

12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
This one is clear cut... don't knock the Holy Spirit


Matthew.
13:41-13:43
Matthew
3:29
Mark
16:16
Luke
19:27
A few to get you started.
Yes, and in most cases you took them completely out of context... don't feel bad, Christians have a habit of cherry picking and hatcheting scriptures too... doesn't make it right


PS I meant, find me a ONE (or more) scripture(s) that even indicates that the core belief structure of Christianity is the destruction of nonbelievers... I bet you can't! So far, you haven't even posted core scriptures, let alone belief structures.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:46 AM
mmmm It's a psychological thing, when people "convert" or move over to another "team", they often go through a period to which they feel the need to discredit their former associations. You see it in most situations, sports, politics, social groups, even book clubs. It's especially common when a large majority are bagging the other "team/group/religion" and it becomes an issue of acceptance. For a lot of people it makes the transition easier, and reaffirms their new allegiances. Of cause it isn't necessary, and often indicates a lack of mental and ethical maturity (this is not exclusive to age).

But then again, there are those whom love to play the victim. They'll subconsciously look for a minority or unpopular culture so they can be justified in carrying their imaginary cross.



I'll hold them, you punch... and then we'll switch places http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/box2.gif





They'll subconsciously look for a minority or unpopular culture so they can be justified in carrying their imaginary cross.


Lovely form of modern spin thought there.

Believe it or not some things have occurences for real purposes that do have meaning and not everything is mass- insanity of the human mind.

Infinite Grey
July 9th, 2006, 01:51 AM
Lovely form of modern spin thought there.

Believe it or not some things have occurences for real purposes that do have meaning and not everything is mass- insanity of the human mind.

So can you give a reason why you would be anti-Christian for events that happened hundreds, if not thousands of years ago? hmmmm?

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 01:54 AM
WAY out of context! IF you read the whole passage Jesus is referring to afterlife punishment of false prophets and their followers... if you read the first part of this passage you'll find it says.
"Matthew 7:1-30 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? "

Geez... he's a BEAST! :lol:


Again, he is referring to AFTERLIFE punishment, if you knew Christianity you would know that their main Doctrine is to prevent this from happening to people.




Again, no violence...


I'll give you this one, as it would take quite a lot of thelogoical chatter to clear it up.





Again afterlife punishment... simple really



This one is clear cut... don't knock the Holy Spirit


Yes, and in most cases you took them completely out of context... don't feel bad, Christians have a habit of cherry picking and hatcheting scriptures too... doesn't make it right


PS I meant, find me a ONE (or more) scripture(s) that even indicates that the core belief structure of Christianity is the destruction of nonbelievers... I bet you can't! So far, you haven't even posted core scriptures, let alone belief structures.






IF you read the whole passage Jesus is referring to afterlife punishment of false prophets and their followers... if you read the first part of this passage you'll find it says.


Jesus contradicted himself many times. This proves?


Also I found this a bit humorous:



IF you read the whole passage Jesus is referring to afterlife punishment of false prophets and their followers...

Ah yes that is so much better in improvement.

Tell me:

What constituted false prophets for such a punishment?


Could it possibly be another belief that posed competition of his own?

Why yes I do believe it could of been.



Again, he is referring to AFTERLIFE punishment, if you knew Christianity you would know that their main Doctrine is to prevent this from happening to people.

By conversion, proselytizing or just mass slaughter.




Yes, and in most cases you took them completely out of context... don't feel bad, Christians have a habit of cherry picking and hatcheting scriptures too... doesn't make it right

Did I take them out of context?




PS I meant, find me a ONE (or more) scripture(s) that even indicates that the core belief structure of Christianity is the destruction of nonbelievers... I bet you can't! So far, you haven't even posted core scriptures, let alone belief structures

Still beating the tolerant drum.

Infinite Grey
July 9th, 2006, 02:02 AM
Jesus contradicted himself many times. This proves?

Also I found this a bit humorous:

Ah yes that is so much better in improvement.

Tell me:

What constituted false prophets for such a punishment?
Could it possibly be another belief that posed competition of his own?

Why yes I do believe it could of been.

By conversion, proselytizing or just mass slaughter.

Did I take them out of context?

Still beating the tolerant drum.



Dude... :hehehehe: I really can not be bothered trying to reason with you, in other debates you've proven to only to have the ability to believe what you want to believe, even when the truth slaps you up side the head. Go ahead, take scriptures out of context, rant about you're historically inaccurate garbage, hell even claim this as a victory for all I care. The novelty of taking you serious is wearing out, and I really do not want to engage in another revolving "debate" with you again. So I'll leave you to your... well what ever it is people like you do... have fun

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 02:11 AM
Dude... :hehehehe: I really can not be bothered trying to reason with you, in other debates you've proven to only to have the ability to believe what you want to believe, even when the truth slaps you up side the head. Go ahead, take scriptures out of context, rant about you're historically inaccurate garbage, hell even claim this as a victory for all I care. The novelty of taking you serious is wearing out, and I really do not want to engage in another revolving "debate" with you again. So I'll leave you to your... well what ever it is people like you do... have fun

Atleast I don't give up.

Atleast I have the audacity and courage to stand up for my beliefs.

Everytime I get to a high point of my beliefs or conversations you make a mockery of me Peacock then you always say somthing on the lines of,

" I don't have the time for the likes of you."

You love talking down to people from your high mountain.

lady_fey
July 9th, 2006, 07:53 AM
Uhm, dracon I have some reading to do, but right now I'm pissed off because you really have no idea what you are talking about and won't admit it.

You wanna know what a false prophet was?

Read Matthew chapter 24. And read the book of Deuteronomy.

Lady Fey

I'll respond to this other stuff later, but (shakes head) Dracon... I asked you to prove that God gave the ok for his followers to persecute non believers...
You have not done that.

lady_fey
July 9th, 2006, 04:16 PM
I think for starters a basic idea of Who Jesus is talking to and why he is saying what he is saying and who the bible writer is will help us understand the context of the verses you cite.
One of the first things that comes to mind is that words of Jesus as recorded by Matthew are coming from the perspective of a Jew, a tax collecting Jew if I'm not mistaken. The Jewish people, as described throughout the gospels, were being somewhat abused by the Jewish clergy of the time. Now, those here on mystic wicks might better explain if this is factual or not, however, we are just interested in what the gospel has to say. Throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke and John we see repeated conversations between Jesus and the Pharisees. He tells them often where they are erring. They want to know basically who gave him the right, this puny young man, to tell them where they are erring. He is basically leading a revolution.
He comes onto the scene in Matthew being baptized by John the Baptist who is preaching repentence. One of the things I have been trying to understand myself over the last few months, is what sort of repentence is in order here? Ok, well, anyway, Jesus is then baptized by John and goes into the desert and is there tempted by the Devil. It is after this he begins his ministry. Matthew 4:15,16 says "Land of Zebulan and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles, the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, on those dwelling in a lnad overshadowed by death light has arisen." This is in reference to I believe Isaiah ch 8.Verse 23 tells us this: "He went around all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the gospel of the kngdom, and curing every disease and illness among the people. His fame spread to all of Syria, and they brought to him all who were sick with various diseases and racked with pain, those who were possessed lunatics, and paralytics, and he cured them." So first of all, my impression of the way Matthew first uses the ref to Isaiah ch 8 and then in the same ch refers to the healing of Jesus is his way of saying that the people were in darkness and the shadow of the death in a physical sense and here Jesus has come to bring light and hope. Then ch 5 goes into the Sermon on the Mount. One of his most famous sermons. Now, remember he is talking to the people that are following him. They are already believers in a sense, they are listening to him. First he tells them to let their light shine, to keep the commandments that YHWH had given them. Then he tells them in verses 21 - 26 to not continue to be wrathful with their brothers. To be forgiving and if they know of someone who has a problem with them, settle matters before bringing a gift to the altar. He then goes on to teach about adultery and divorce, keeping your word. He now also teaches that rather then retaliate, one should turn the other cheek, meaning, offer up the other cheek as well. He says too that if someone were to impress them into service to not only go along with it, but go the extra mile. Now so far, these are things that most everyday people really don't have a problem with are they? Well look at verse 43 - 48:
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But i say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the justand the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Ok, so he has just told these people to Love their enemies. To love those persecuting them. FYI the tax collectors were very much disliked by the people. But that's a whole other story. Ok, anyhow, continuing with the sermon, he talks about being careful not to do good deeds for the wrong reason, then he is talking about prayer, then there is the Lords Prayer. He talks about fasting, storing up treasures in heaven, then along with that, keeping one's eye simple ie not being materialistic. Then there is dependence on God. (Does any of this sound bad?) Then he tells them in chapter 7 verse 1 not to be judging others. And keep on asking God for whatever it is that you need. Then ahhhhh the Golden Rule, verse 12 "Do to others whatever you would them do to you. This is the law and the prophets." This thought is echoed elsewhere in the gospel of Matthew at ch 22:34-40 "When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them (a scholar of the law) tested him by asking, Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest? He said to him, You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments." How easy is it to truly love your enemy? Can you say you love Saddam Hussein? Do we love the people who have murdered and raped? To love the people who persecute us? Extreme thought, yes. But in everyday life, think of the anger that we carry without realizing it. The people that we struggle to tolerate. Not easy is it? Now lets go to Matthew ch 7 verse 13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrown the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few." Do ya see? He's saying, no it isn't easy to always be a loving person. It isn't easy to forgive and let go. Many will give up. But I'm telling you don't give up. Dracon, I've had the pleasure of knowing so many people in my life from many walks of life. From your avatar I gather that you are young. As you go through life and struggle with the abuses of the world, it can be a real struggle not to become a bitter person. To not let it get you down is one of the biggest challenges you might face. The easy way out for anyone is to stop fighting and to give in just become bitter. But whether one believes in Karma, YHWH or evolution... in the end giving up will not benefit us.
Now, you also mentioned false prophets. It is not quite as simple as you made it sound, and I'm not going to get into all of it right now. But the next few verses cover this. verse 15-23 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them." Think about it like this: How many times do you think you know someone, but they turn out to be a jerk? Some abuse whatever trust and authority is given to them. He was warning them that there would be those who would come to them and on the surface seem like great people, but if they examined their deeds, they would find that they needed to stay away from them. This goes along with the next few verses, 21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers." So here he is telling these ones that he knows there will be some who claim to do mighty works in his name. These are the false prophets, ones that claim to be 'good christians' but really are unloving wolves. These are the ones he will cast aside. Ones who claim to be his followers but never producing the fruits to show for it. A loving, peaceful person will produce fruits that are nourishing and upbuilding, a person who is filled with hate, and greed will produce fruits that cannot nourish, that cannot be used for anything. Those ones will be cast aside according to the gospel.
Now, you next bring up Matthew 8:10-12. Well, if you go back to verse 5 and carry that through to 10 you see that Jesus is conversing with a centaurion and heals his servant. Interestingly, this is where you pick up in verse 10. The Pharisees and Saducees of the time sort of patted themselves on the back. They really thought they were all that. They looked forward to being first in the Kingdom of God. Well, here Jesus is remarking on the faith of this centaurion, a soldier for Herod. Jesus found the faith in the religious leaders to be lacking. They are the ones of whom he speaks in verse 12.
Matthew 10:13-15. This is interesing and it was sort of funny for me to go back to this. I remember as a Jehovah's Witness we would cite this scripture any time someone would get nasty with us. Anyhow, I think it's important you understand this verse. When he sent them out in two's, they would go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, once again, they would be going to their fellow believers in YHWH. Notice too in verse 5-8 what it says: "Jesus sent out these twelve after insructing them thus, 'Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, make this proclamation: The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you are to give." Ok, so when they went to the 'lost ones' they weren't going after them saying you better listen to us. Apparently Jesus gave them the ability to do great things. I mean, cleansing the lepers, healing the sick...if they didn't respond favorably to that then the verses you cite would apply. Also, interestingly, what this probably is referring to is that if a believer was lodging in the home of a non believer or vice versa then it could bring reproach on the believer. Because it might be assumed that the person, the believer was having religious dealings with the non beliver. Further, the reference to Sodom and Gommorah, yeah, it is harsh isn't it? But let's say someone comes into your home heals your child and then says that your abilities to do great things come from the Devil? or that they don't believe you? Those were the kind of things that would be said about Jesus and his works. These ones would have every reason in the world to believe that Jesus was this Messiah. OR as I see it, they had a chance at a different way of doing things. What Jesus brought them was love, well, for some of them, following the teachings of Jesus might bring them into unfavor with their families or the Pharisees. Heck, some of them were directly related to the various classes of Jewish clergy.
This actually goes along quite well with the rest of chapter 10.
He says to them in verses 16 - 25
"Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves. But beware of people, for they will hand you over to courts and scourge you in their synagogues, and you will be led before governors and kings for my sake as a witness before them and the pagans. When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you to say. You will be given at that moment what you are to say. For it will not be you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will hand over brother to death, and the father his child; children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saed. When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. No disciple is above his teacher, no slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, for the slave that he become like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of his own household."
Now if you go to the verses you cite, you can understand that the sword Jesus is speaking of, is Not a sword that is to be picked up by his followers against the unbeliever. Actually it is the other way around. And it did happen like that. There was a good number of years that people were horribly persecuted for professing to be a Christian. There is a lot to that, and I am not going to pretend I know enough about Roman history to explain that well. But the point is, Jesus was by no means telling others to pick up a sword and kill.
Ok Dracon, I have to do a little work. I'll finish off the rest later tonight or tomorrow morning.

In the meantime, I really, really think you should go back and read the gospels again. But it's your decision.

Lady Fey

djmixon
July 9th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Still beating the tolerant drum.


Really?

I'm not so sure. But it is your choice to believe what you want. And mine to believe as I will.

djmixon
July 9th, 2006, 05:39 PM
I have had many negative tidings with Christianity to know not to tolerate anything.

So, which drum is it you claim to be beating again?

Infinite Grey
July 9th, 2006, 05:45 PM
So, which drum is it you claim to be beating again?


hehehe he's beating the Pagan Inquisition drum, with a complement of thumb screws and burning stakes :lol:

Xirian
July 9th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Anyway, what are your thoughts?.
Wow!!! Well, my first thought is that in just a few days this has thread has gotten interestingly and possibly visciously out of hand.

My next thought is I am not anti-christian, and I know there are pagans who are, but it doesn't matter to me. There are many pagans that are anti-pagan. To each their own.

From some of the posts I've made lately, I could be seen as anti-wiccan, but it's really not true.

I am against forcing segregation on others, anti-proselytization, and anti-hierarchization.

I don't feel that segregating oneself and pushing that viewpoint onto others of the same group or another group, is right. I don't believe that preaching and forcing one to listen to your viewpoint is right. If you want to write it that's fine, but to come to someone's house and force it upon them, I feel is wrong. I know I was someone that was made to do that from the age of 2 to 17, I will never do it again.

And I do not like hierarchies when it comes to human beings and religion. These are only my personal feelings and issues about the subject, just in case...

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 07:24 PM
hehehe he's beating the Pagan Inquisition drum, with a complement of thumb screws and burning stakes :lol:

Funny....

Did you coin that up by yourself?


So, which drum is it you claim to be beating again?

Cold hard truth.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Uhm, dracon I have some reading to do, but right now I'm pissed off because you really have no idea what you are talking about and won't admit it.

You wanna know what a false prophet was?

Read Matthew chapter 24. And read the book of Deuteronomy.

Lady Fey

I'll respond to this other stuff later, but (shakes head) Dracon... I asked you to prove that God gave the ok for his followers to persecute non believers...
You have not done that.









Matthew Jesus says.

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;



13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.





Matthew Jesus says.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



Mark Jesus says.

3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.



Mark Jesus says.

16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Luke Jesus Says.
19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.








What exactly am I misinterpreting here?

Can you address these parables?

mol
July 9th, 2006, 07:30 PM
All of you folks who think the Bible is just a bunch of hooey need to study the Qabalah and realize that everything was created by Us...God. Including the bible. And through the Qabalah something can be gleaned from Nothing.

But, I digress. Please keep in mind our respect rule here as you debate this. This whole thread seems to fit more in Theology and Philosophy than in Just Pagan.

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 07:35 PM
All of you folks who think the Bible is just a bunch of hooey need to study the Qabalah and realize that everything was created by Us...God. Including the bible. And through the Qabalah something can be gleaned from Nothing.

But, I digress. Please keep in mind our respect rule here as you debate this. This whole thread seems to fit more in Theology and Philosophy than in Just Pagan.


Isn't the Qabalah just a meditational text?

I have read the Talmud and Koran with regards to those texts besides the bible there are indeed some parables that I would love explained to me especially the ones where the Abrahamic God demands the blood of infidels.





Please keep in mind our respect rule here as you debate this.



I am trying to be respectful.

I hope I have not offended any rules so far.

If the moderators see somthing that I have done wrong I would appreciate it if they tell me so I can correct any wrong doing.

So far everything I have posted is right out of the bible.

lady_fey
July 9th, 2006, 07:37 PM
I hope that you will have the consideration to reply to the post that took me quite a while to do.
Further, yes, I will address those scriptures.

I don't think you are offending people personally, but I do think that you are in water you aren't as familiar with as you think.

Respectfully,
Lady Fey

mol
July 9th, 2006, 07:41 PM
Isn't the Qabalah just a meditational text?

I have read the Talmud and Koran with regards to those texts besides the bible there are indeed some parables that I would love explained to me especially the ones where the Abrahamic God demands the blood of infidels.

Well, I guess it's all in perception. =]

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 07:46 PM
I think for starters a basic idea of Who Jesus is talking to and why he is saying what he is saying and who the bible writer is will help us understand the context of the verses you cite.
One of the first things that comes to mind is that words of Jesus as recorded by Matthew are coming from the perspective of a Jew, a tax collecting Jew if I'm not mistaken. The Jewish people, as described throughout the gospels, were being somewhat abused by the Jewish clergy of the time. Now, those here on mystic wicks might better explain if this is factual or not, however, we are just interested in what the gospel has to say. Throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke and John we see repeated conversations between Jesus and the Pharisees. He tells them often where they are erring. They want to know basically who gave him the right, this puny young man, to tell them where they are erring. He is basically leading a revolution.
He comes onto the scene in Matthew being baptized by John the Baptist who is preaching repentence. One of the things I have been trying to understand myself over the last few months, is what sort of repentence is in order here? Ok, well, anyway, Jesus is then baptized by John and goes into the desert and is there tempted by the Devil. It is after this he begins his ministry. Matthew 4:15,16 says "Land of Zebulan and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles, the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, on those dwelling in a lnad overshadowed by death light has arisen." This is in reference to I believe Isaiah ch 8.Verse 23 tells us this: "He went around all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the gospel of the kngdom, and curing every disease and illness among the people. His fame spread to all of Syria, and they brought to him all who were sick with various diseases and racked with pain, those who were possessed lunatics, and paralytics, and he cured them." So first of all, my impression of the way Matthew first uses the ref to Isaiah ch 8 and then in the same ch refers to the healing of Jesus is his way of saying that the people were in darkness and the shadow of the death in a physical sense and here Jesus has come to bring light and hope. Then ch 5 goes into the Sermon on the Mount. One of his most famous sermons. Now, remember he is talking to the people that are following him. They are already believers in a sense, they are listening to him. First he tells them to let their light shine, to keep the commandments that YHWH had given them. Then he tells them in verses 21 - 26 to not continue to be wrathful with their brothers. To be forgiving and if they know of someone who has a problem with them, settle matters before bringing a gift to the altar. He then goes on to teach about adultery and divorce, keeping your word. He now also teaches that rather then retaliate, one should turn the other cheek, meaning, offer up the other cheek as well. He says too that if someone were to impress them into service to not only go along with it, but go the extra mile. Now so far, these are things that most everyday people really don't have a problem with are they? Well look at verse 43 - 48:
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But i say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the justand the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Ok, so he has just told these people to Love their enemies. To love those persecuting them. FYI the tax collectors were very much disliked by the people. But that's a whole other story. Ok, anyhow, continuing with the sermon, he talks about being careful not to do good deeds for the wrong reason, then he is talking about prayer, then there is the Lords Prayer. He talks about fasting, storing up treasures in heaven, then along with that, keeping one's eye simple ie not being materialistic. Then there is dependence on God. (Does any of this sound bad?) Then he tells them in chapter 7 verse 1 not to be judging others. And keep on asking God for whatever it is that you need. Then ahhhhh the Golden Rule, verse 12 "Do to others whatever you would them do to you. This is the law and the prophets." This thought is echoed elsewhere in the gospel of Matthew at ch 22:34-40 "When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them (a scholar of the law) tested him by asking, Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest? He said to him, You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments." How easy is it to truly love your enemy? Can you say you love Saddam Hussein? Do we love the people who have murdered and raped? To love the people who persecute us? Extreme thought, yes. But in everyday life, think of the anger that we carry without realizing it. The people that we struggle to tolerate. Not easy is it? Now lets go to Matthew ch 7 verse 13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrown the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few." Do ya see? He's saying, no it isn't easy to always be a loving person. It isn't easy to forgive and let go. Many will give up. But I'm telling you don't give up. Dracon, I've had the pleasure of knowing so many people in my life from many walks of life. From your avatar I gather that you are young. As you go through life and struggle with the abuses of the world, it can be a real struggle not to become a bitter person. To not let it get you down is one of the biggest challenges you might face. The easy way out for anyone is to stop fighting and to give in just become bitter. But whether one believes in Karma, YHWH or evolution... in the end giving up will not benefit us.
Now, you also mentioned false prophets. It is not quite as simple as you made it sound, and I'm not going to get into all of it right now. But the next few verses cover this. verse 15-23 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them." Think about it like this: How many times do you think you know someone, but they turn out to be a jerk? Some abuse whatever trust and authority is given to them. He was warning them that there would be those who would come to them and on the surface seem like great people, but if they examined their deeds, they would find that they needed to stay away from them. This goes along with the next few verses, 21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers." So here he is telling these ones that he knows there will be some who claim to do mighty works in his name. These are the false prophets, ones that claim to be 'good christians' but really are unloving wolves. These are the ones he will cast aside. Ones who claim to be his followers but never producing the fruits to show for it. A loving, peaceful person will produce fruits that are nourishing and upbuilding, a person who is filled with hate, and greed will produce fruits that cannot nourish, that cannot be used for anything. Those ones will be cast aside according to the gospel.
Now, you next bring up Matthew 8:10-12. Well, if you go back to verse 5 and carry that through to 10 you see that Jesus is conversing with a centaurion and heals his servant. Interestingly, this is where you pick up in verse 10. The Pharisees and Saducees of the time sort of patted themselves on the back. They really thought they were all that. They looked forward to being first in the Kingdom of God. Well, here Jesus is remarking on the faith of this centaurion, a soldier for Herod. Jesus found the faith in the religious leaders to be lacking. They are the ones of whom he speaks in verse 12.
Matthew 10:13-15. This is interesing and it was sort of funny for me to go back to this. I remember as a Jehovah's Witness we would cite this scripture any time someone would get nasty with us. Anyhow, I think it's important you understand this verse. When he sent them out in two's, they would go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, once again, they would be going to their fellow believers in YHWH. Notice too in verse 5-8 what it says: "Jesus sent out these twelve after insructing them thus, 'Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, make this proclamation: The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you are to give." Ok, so when they went to the 'lost ones' they weren't going after them saying you better listen to us. Apparently Jesus gave them the ability to do great things. I mean, cleansing the lepers, healing the sick...if they didn't respond favorably to that then the verses you cite would apply. Also, interestingly, what this probably is referring to is that if a believer was lodging in the home of a non believer or vice versa then it could bring reproach on the believer. Because it might be assumed that the person, the believer was having religious dealings with the non beliver. Further, the reference to Sodom and Gommorah, yeah, it is harsh isn't it? But let's say someone comes into your home heals your child and then says that your abilities to do great things come from the Devil? or that they don't believe you? Those were the kind of things that would be said about Jesus and his works. These ones would have every reason in the world to believe that Jesus was this Messiah. OR as I see it, they had a chance at a different way of doing things. What Jesus brought them was love, well, for some of them, following the teachings of Jesus might bring them into unfavor with their families or the Pharisees. Heck, some of them were directly related to the various classes of Jewish clergy.
This actually goes along quite well with the rest of chapter 10.
He says to them in verses 16 - 25
"Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves. But beware of people, for they will hand you over to courts and scourge you in their synagogues, and you will be led before governors and kings for my sake as a witness before them and the pagans. When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you to say. You will be given at that moment what you are to say. For it will not be you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will hand over brother to death, and the father his child; children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saed. When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. No disciple is above his teacher, no slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, for the slave that he become like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of his own household."
Now if you go to the verses you cite, you can understand that the sword Jesus is speaking of, is Not a sword that is to be picked up by his followers against the unbeliever. Actually it is the other way around. And it did happen like that. There was a good number of years that people were horribly persecuted for professing to be a Christian. There is a lot to that, and I am not going to pretend I know enough about Roman history to explain that well. But the point is, Jesus was by no means telling others to pick up a sword and kill.
Ok Dracon, I have to do a little work. I'll finish off the rest later tonight or tomorrow morning.

In the meantime, I really, really think you should go back and read the gospels again. But it's your decision.

Lady Fey


Even if the Pharisees and other Hebrews he was adressing were wrong in his eyes the fact that he ordered violence against them is still astonishing given the fact that he is the son of God.


In my eyes the reason he ordered violence or spoke of them in a wrong manner because anyone that was against the new form of salvation was a infidel.

Apparently the followers in later times were just using the same ideology that Jesus spoke of.

Also I look forward to your views on the later posts that I have in this thread of Jesus with his messages.


Well, I guess it's all in perception. =]

Indeed. Quite so.


I hope that you will have the consideration to reply to the post that took me quite a while to do.
Further, yes, I will address those scriptures.

I don't think you are offending people personally, but I do think that you are in water you aren't as familiar with as you think.

Respectfully,
Lady Fey





I hope that you will have the consideration to reply to the post that took me quite a while to do.
Further, yes, I will address those scriptures.


Indeed I did reply to it.


Excellent I wait for you to adress the other scriptures.





I don't think you are offending people personally, but I do think that you are in water you aren't as familiar with as you think.


We shall see.

lady_fey
July 9th, 2006, 08:03 PM
You mean the original teachings that God bestowed the believers to kill and smite the non-believer?

This is the issue Dracon. Not what the Christian teaching of end times and heaven and hell and whatever.

You have not proven that the Bible teaches that God bestowed the believers to kill and smite the non believer.
The scriptures you gave, did not support that.

I have zero interest in debating anything else with you.

Either provide Those scriptures or admit you are wrong and let's move on.

Lady Fey

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 08:12 PM
This is the issue Dracon. Not what the Christian teaching of end times and heaven and hell and whatever.

You have not proven that the Bible teaches that God bestowed the believers to kill and smite the non believer.
The scriptures you gave, did not support that.

I have zero interest in debating anything else with you.

Either provide Those scriptures or admit you are wrong and let's move on.

Lady Fey

Have you seen the new posts I have just posted a couple of minutes ago?

The words of Jesus himself.

Did you miss that?

Also the desciples who walked with Jesus everyday said things far worse.

Let us remember these were the people that were the most closest to Jesus.

If you want to give up the debate that is indeed your choice.

lady_fey
July 9th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Dracon:
I will indeed address those.

You said that God basically gave his believers the go ahead on a mass slaughter of non believers.
NOT TRUE!

The scriptures you put out there are once again taken out of their context and yes I will indeed post in response to those.

But know this:

I have better things to do with my time then spend hours pouring over scriptures verse by verse for a guy that won't admit that he is wrong.

Let me be clear with you:
I am NOT debating that the basic end teaching of the Bible is that if one is a non believer in Christ or YHWH such one will be tortured in hell. That is not the debate. That is why I am Not a christian in terms of how Christianity is defined today. That is also Not to say that I think that is the only manner in which a person can define Christianity.
What we are debating is the above.

As I said before, if I am wrong I would like to know.
If you would like to know my personal stance on the Bible I will pm that to you as that has no bearing on this discussion.

Please keep in mind: I am a mom of two young girls, I am busy as hell and I will address the scriptures. But it is taking time out of my day and evening. I am doing it for the sake of a clear understanding of these scriptures that you cite for both our sakes, if you are debating for the pleasure of argument, tell me now so that I don't waste my time.
If you have no intention of admiting error at any time, please have the courtesy of dropping the matter with me.
I only debate with those who will admit error, as that is how I do things.

Peace
Lady Fey

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 09:06 PM
Dracon:
I will indeed address those.

You said that God basically gave his believers the go ahead on a mass slaughter of non believers.
NOT TRUE!

The scriptures you put out there are once again taken out of their context and yes I will indeed post in response to those.

But know this:

I have better things to do with my time then spend hours pouring over scriptures verse by verse for a guy that won't admit that he is wrong.

Let me be clear with you:
I am NOT debating that the basic end teaching of the Bible is that if one is a non believer in Christ or YHWH such one will be tortured in hell. That is not the debate. That is why I am Not a christian in terms of how Christianity is defined today. That is also Not to say that I think that is the only manner in which a person can define Christianity.
What we are debating is the above.

As I said before, if I am wrong I would like to know.
If you would like to know my personal stance on the Bible I will pm that to you as that has no bearing on this discussion.

Please keep in mind: I am a mom of two young girls, I am busy as hell and I will address the scriptures. But it is taking time out of my day and evening. I am doing it for the sake of a clear understanding of these scriptures that you cite for both our sakes, if you are debating for the pleasure of argument, tell me now so that I don't waste my time.
If you have no intention of admiting error at any time, please have the courtesy of dropping the matter with me.
I only debate with those who will admit error, as that is how I do things.

Peace
Lady Fey





You said that God basically gave his believers the go ahead on a mass slaughter of non believers.
NOT TRUE!


He stated a pit of fire which means death and eternal damnation which is torture.




The scriptures you put out there are once again taken out of their context and yes I will indeed post in response to those.


I look forward to it.



But know this:

I have better things to do with my time then spend hours pouring over scriptures verse by verse for a guy that won't admit that he is wrong.


If you say so.....




I am NOT debating that the basic end teaching of the Bible is that if one is a non believer in Christ or YHWH such one will be tortured in hell.


Interesting you should bring that up as I see it as a important role of our conversation.




That is why I am Not a christian in terms of how Christianity is defined today.


Christianity today was defined by the bible.




As I said before, if I am wrong I would like to know.
If you would like to know my personal stance on the Bible I will pm that to you as that has no bearing on this discussion.


Why so secretive?

Let us speak here in this thread publicly.

I have nothing to hide and I would hope you have nothing either.




Please keep in mind: I am a mom of two young girls, I am busy as hell and I will address the scriptures.


Take your time.

Family is much more important than the internet.




I am doing it for the sake of a clear understanding of these scriptures that you cite for both our sakes, if you are debating for the pleasure of argument, tell me now so that I don't waste my time.


I debate everything in the search of knowledge and wisdom.

Very rarely if ever do I debate in the form of arguements.




If you have no intention of admiting error at any time, please have the courtesy of dropping the matter with me.
I only debate with those who will admit error, as that is how I do things.


What error?

lady_fey
July 9th, 2006, 09:14 PM
He did not state that they could throw them into a pit of fire Dracon.
You are taking things out of context and at this point you are indeed speaking about things you have little knowledge of. You are choosing to ignore the obvious because if you didn't you would have to admit that you are wrong.


I will post a response to the scriptures cited for the benefit of others and then after that will debate no more with you.

Why?


I guess Jesus was right about one thing if nothing else:

By their fruits you shall recognize them.


Lady Fey

Infinite Grey
July 9th, 2006, 09:19 PM
He did not state that they could throw them into a pit of fire Dracon.
You are taking things out of context and at this point you are indeed speaking about things you have little knowledge of. You are choosing to ignore the obvious because if you didn't you would have to admit that you are wrong.


I will post a response to the scriptures cited for the benefit of others and then after that will debate no more with you.

Why?


I guess Jesus was right about one thing if nothing else:

By their fruits you shall recognize them.


Lady Fey

BOOM BABY! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/kar.gif

lady_fey
July 9th, 2006, 10:04 PM
In regards to Matthew 13:41:

This is a scripture in reference to end times. You don't have to agree with it, but you can't take it out of context to prove a point that is not there. This scripture is saying that yes, there will be a seperating between believers and unbelievers. That could mean many different things. It is actually qutie subjective and depends on the readers interpretation. I.e. many homosexuals are christian and have a much different viewpoint than the average Christian about sin and what it means to be a believer. I have a close friend who is a Christian and her mother is into astrology and she feels it is all a matter of personal opinion.
In the end to many Christians it comes down to a few simple rules:
Love your neighbor as yourself and let God take care of the rest.

13:42 See above.

13:43 Define righteous. Again this is subjective and while I could launch into a 13 hour discussion on my beliefs in this matter, that is not what this discussion is about. Righteous according to Jesus is..... whether or not one believes in him? As what? As God? As a good person? As a prophet? Jesus never really comes out and says. There are possibilities that the scribes actually rewrote various verses to support any one viewpoint. So again it can be quite subjective.

25:41 Again this is an end time prophecy, and is Not a go ahead from God to murder and smote. In fact, what is highly interesting is that it points out that one needn't be a believer anyhoooo. Because verses 34 - 40 says this:
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kngdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, Iwas thristy and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and clother me, ill and cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you? Nd the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
So once again we see that you are wrong. Here Jesus has actually said that the righteous were the ones who were showing love to their neighbor.

3:29 I already addressed the matter of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, find it.

Mark 16:16 Again this is not an ok from God to say "murder and smote the unbeliever".

Luke 19:27 This is the parable of the ten coins. You also made reference to this in another post along the same lines. This is a parable, and not Jesus talking. It is again somewhat subjective. If you take it literally then I suppose Jesus is handing out minas somewhere. When you find the minas, and the people receiving then we'll talk about this in a literal manner.

Further...


Matthew chapter 11, Jesus is addressing those that had seen and experienced the miracles and still chose not to believe. Again this is in no way God OR Jesus telling his followers they have the right to murder and smote.

Matthew chapter 12, Jesus is addressing the Pharisees who were accusing him of gaining power by Satan. He makes the statement that a house that is divided will fall. The idea that one is either on his side or against him is there, yes. Again, this is not evidence by any means that God gave the go ahead on a murder and smoting spree.

13:41 -43 Again, this is an end times statement, he is not giving the go ahead on murder and smoting.

25: 41 Same thing

3:29 same thing

Luke 19:26 Another reference to the parable about the gold minas. Subjective material and not literal.
Luke 19:27 See above.

Luke 12:48 If you don't want to worship Jesus, don't. If you don't like Jesus don't. If you think the Bible is nonsense so be it.

BUT

You still have NOT provided a scripture that says:


You mean the original teachings that God bestowed the believers to kill and smite the non-believer?

In fact I have already provided you with chapter and verse where Jesus tells his followers to Love their enemy and to love their neighbor.

This debate between you and I is dependent on YOU providing chapter and verse where God bestows on the believer to murder and smote the unbeliever and you have not done that.

No one really cares if you don't like what the bible teaches. I sure don't.
Take it up with the authors of the bible or the next evangelists that show up at your door, that is not what this debate is about.

ahh crap...
smite/smote
tomato/tomatoe

lady fey

Grimr
July 9th, 2006, 11:11 PM
I am exiting this conversation as I have said everthing I could.

I don't think this conversation will be resolved in peace therefore it is a waste of time for me to even try.

mol
July 9th, 2006, 11:15 PM
Perception. 93, all.

Protagonist
July 10th, 2006, 02:10 AM
Perception. 93, all.
What's 93?

LordHelmet
July 10th, 2006, 03:41 AM
WOW!! It got hot in here since I was away! I feel it is my duty to fuel the flames :)

No, seriously guys, this is a touchy subject and the fact that we can all debate this stuff getting to the crucial centers of it without bloodfued says a lot for the 21st century I think.

So...

(in regards to my illistration of the structure of a belief system back on first page)

I am sorry if a Christian or some group call themselves Christian have offended you, but the teachings of Jesus do not have motivations in guilt, terror, or negativity. But rather, Jesus taught love, peace and understanding.

Sure, just like everything else, there are flaws, but those flaws lie in the humans not in the belief system or path.

So, I hope you can open yourself to see that not all Christians are hate-mongering persecutors... we are not.
D

I was a part of this belief system myself. I fell for it like everyone around me growing up, I pulled other people into it just like I was supposed to. Fortunatly I took some time to distance myself from it.

I don't hate the people who fall for belief systems, nor do I hate the people pulling others into them. I know they sincerly want to help people. I did. No, I hate the belief system.

I still could call myself Christian, Gnostic, Qabalistic, Pagan but I can't say that these things mean anything like what the average christian believes. I can't even call this religion if I'm going to call normal christianity religion. It's a belief system and that's the part of it that I hate, not the teachings about laying your life down for your brother and loving your enemies, I HATE the belief system.

By normal christian I'm not refering to normal MW christian, very different, I'm talking about most of the people walking through the doors into church (here in the US).



I dont deny that the christian god does exist....I just happen to hate him (and his religion). I'm ok with people who are christian....until they begin trying to push me to become one of them or they dont shut up about their religion.


That is terribly rude.

(referring to the post above mine)

Thats a little unfair now. Is it rude say you hate hitler, or the white supremiscist that won't quit nagging at you trying to recruit you? Hey, hitler did a lot of good things in Germany to... it's just that he and his rightoeus followers had a little genocidal and violent bent. Most christians I know think of Joshua and Samuel and David as the good guys.

Silverfire Darkmoon
July 10th, 2006, 10:07 AM
Um, yeah, what we had here was a troll, and one of a particularly foul variety.
Don't you just love the sort of person who complains violently about something and is a perfect example of what which they complain about? Isn't there are word for that? I think it starts with an H...

KylalaKitty
July 10th, 2006, 12:49 PM
Um, yeah, what we had here was a troll, and one of a particularly foul variety.
Don't you just love the sort of person who complains violently about something and is a perfect example of what which they complain about? Isn't there are word for that? I think it starts with an H...

I dont see how that is.

FreedomSpirit
July 10th, 2006, 02:19 PM
In general, I'd have to say no.

I've met Christians who are against people just because they are pagan - and a lot of Christians who accept them and are cool with it.

I've also met pagans who were against people just because they were Christian - and a lot pagans who accept them and are cool with it.

Acceptance, or lack there of, can't be pushed off on a religion as a whole....a lot of it has to do with personal choice, understanding, and beliefs.

LordHelmet
July 10th, 2006, 08:36 PM
I think Dracon does actualy have a point. I don't really agree but there's definatly something there.

Jesus does not appear (as the NT reads) to have any bent toward violence towards or among his followers, or against their enemies, in this lifetime. Quite the contrary. However he doesn't seem to choked up about the idea that God is going to be vengeful and violent to whoever he see's fit. in the afterlife though. ("Um dad? I will have no part in your intolerant attitude toward imperfect humans who sometimes get lead astray, I'll try to help them but I'll leave the Doom and Gloom to you, and if that angers you then why don't you send me to Hell to!?")

No Jesus supports Gods evil but not humanitys. It's kinda like when Dads drinking beer and watching porn in the living room, and yells at the kids and throws things around the room because he had a long day paying for the cable and he's not going to watch Japanamie when ECW is on. Mom coddles the kids and explains that Dads rightoeus fury should not be challanged because of the devistating consequences.

Now I don't mean to make it sound like the NT is all about retribution, in fact it seems to spend a lot more time on the good stuff. But that doesn't good ol El W. Jehova the alcholic dictator OK. And this barely scratches war God of the Old Testament.

I mean this guy can't forgive someone for disobedience, even unintentional, until someone pays for it. Thanks Jesus, but isn't it time for an intervention?


OK, sorry guys. My rant was directed at the bible when taken as a whole 'Word of God' style Holy book where it's taken as absolute fact and perfect truth. It may or may not disturb the beliefs of a christian if this is NOT the way they see the Bible. Most anyone here I don't think falls into the catagory of 'Word of God' believers. Hopefuly some of you xTians out there can use this point to help wake up some of your friends.

Infinite Grey
July 11th, 2006, 07:15 AM
Another one... oh well.

bbnflpn
July 11th, 2006, 07:23 AM
most pagans i know have a general dislike for christians.

and it has been very hard for me not to go the same way. and it gets harder every day. but i try to stay postive and realize that not all people are the same, think the same, and that the pepole who i have a problem with, generaly are not true christians in the sence of what that religon belives. because they wouldnt hate you for who or what you are. its the ones who think thats what christianity is all about that i have the problem with


What's 93?
i agree whats 93,

i have my suspicions, in that case mol, i am also 93

LordHelmet
July 11th, 2006, 09:06 PM
Perception. 93, all.

to percieve 93 as all? ... hmmm...

Is this a message to the admins. Possible that they should pay close attention to this thread.


I don't know but it sounds kinda catchy.

Jolixte
July 11th, 2006, 09:08 PM
93 = Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will. 93 has to do with numerology of love/will, I think.

LordHelmet
July 11th, 2006, 09:11 PM
Kabalism?

Philosophia
July 11th, 2006, 09:13 PM
Kabalism?

It could be Thelema?

Jolixte
July 11th, 2006, 09:13 PM
Kabalism?
Thelema

LordHelmet
July 12th, 2006, 01:02 AM
Thelema is mostly Kabala though. The way I remember it Love = Unity/Oneness = ##(93?) and said ## (93?) *2=JHvh

Basicly Love plus Unity equals God.

Even so the whole phrase doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Perception. 93, all

Grimr
July 12th, 2006, 02:21 AM
Thelema is mostly Kabala though. The way I remember it Love = Unity/Oneness = ##(93?) and said ## (93?) *2=JHvh

Basicly Love plus Unity equals God.

Even so the whole phrase doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Perception. 93, all

I like my law.

Treat me with kindess and you shall have it in turn.

Raise a war on me and I shall bring havoc on your front doorstep.


What do you think LordHelmet?

Do you agree?

Obviously I might be anti Thelema , but it has worked for me so far....... ;)

Grimr
July 12th, 2006, 02:58 AM
I think I just called you War Helmet on accident.

Whoops.


LordWarHelmet. That would be a title there. ;)

LordHelmet
July 12th, 2006, 03:39 AM
I believe that the world exists through perception, and that the reason we're all in the same world is because we're all the same experincer, living many seperate dreams.

Basicly, this guy(or whatever) is dreaming being you with your views and emotions, reading this stuff that it just wrote while dreaming as me. If I shoot Hitler, I will get shot and I will have diserved it, I just don't remember. If I were to be Hitler I would have justly shot myself, I just don't remember it, because it's the same guy doing all of it and it's the same guy feeling all the consequences, just from seperate viewpoints.

The dream changes as we grow, evolve, and change. But the dreamer doesn't change. Therefore emotions, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, veiwpoints ect are all part of the dream. Basicly I, Eric(Lord Helmet), am realy a dream, but when I feel pain, not just Eric is feeling pain. I, the dreamer, am feeling the same pain. Eric doesn't feel anyone elses pain or joy, but I do.

I know this but I would still shoot Hitler, not because he deserves it, not because I want him to pay for his sins, but because I will suffer more in the big picture (as the Jews I don't remember being) if he lives.

As a result of this veiw of the world I naturaly love others as I love myself. (realisticly when I'm hungry I'm more concerned with my hunger then the children in somilia at the moment) When I stop and think about this world view I want the best for everyone and I care unconditionaly for anyone, no matter what they do to me.

However just because I love my enemies doesn't mean I'm going to turn the other cheek, nor would I have others do the same for me. In the big picture it isn't in our combined interests that I let an asshole continue to be an asshole and get away with it.

By the way, Dracon, I got to wonder if a lot of the torches following you around have less burning and more arguing in mind. (A lot, not all)

I really do think you had a point, but everybody was too on the defensive (and you know what the best defense is... right?) to really see it. A large part of the reason for that was that the point you were trying to make was one that they were very much at odds with and one that struck deep beneath the conscious surface, but I think the way you presented it was just as much if not more the reason you got the reaction you did.

And no I'm not thinking that the point I made in that post back there a ways was the point you were after. I actualy don't really agree with your take on Xtianity but I do see where your coming from.

Fire's Shadow
July 12th, 2006, 04:40 AM
Thelema is mostly Kabala though. The way I remember it Love = Unity/Oneness = ##(93?) and said ## (93?) *2=JHvh

Basicly Love plus Unity equals God.

Even so the whole phrase doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Perception. 93, all

What he's saying, in his unique way, is to obey the respect rule. After all "Love is the law, love under will" (93) is pretty much a respect rule.

Meabh23
July 12th, 2006, 04:41 AM
I am not anti-Christian. Nor do I think most "Pagans" are.

Just because you come across some people with loud prejudices, or who may say things you dislike, doesn't mean all of the religion is that way.

I could ask the same thing of Christians: Is Christianity (right? That's the correct word I hope) anti-Pagan? Is it anti-Buddhist? Anti-Muslim? Anti-Jewish?

I ask these because I seem to run into Christians who also complain about othrer religions and then denigrate followers of those faiths. I have had Christians come up to me and tell me that I was "being deceived" because I didn't believe in Jesus Christ. I was told that I needed to "respond to the message" they were telling (more like, I needed to become one of them and join whatever variant of the religion they were into).

So before some of you Christians go off and complain about how some Pagans are expressing "anti-Christian" sentiments, you may wish to put your own house in order first...before you start on the neighbor's.

I personally think it is funny how people of different faiths in the West don't get along and then blame one another over it. But for Christians in America, I don't think they have much to complain about since they basically run the society and are all over the place.

moonthatsheloves
July 12th, 2006, 09:55 AM
I can understand this thread and this question. I have met many pagans who bash anythingand everything Christian. And blame Christianity for, well, pretty much everything. But to me it seems it was more the government and politics back then that created the crap. Not the religion. Jesus did not go around forcing his views on others. It was kings and rulers who did that years after Jesus died. A lot of the things with women not being equal existed before Jesus was even born (look at the Jewish/Hebrew religion and politics and ways of life back then - how women were considered dirty - they couldn't even hold their baby for what, a month after they stopped bleeding after child birth because their menses were seen as dirty - as well as other areas of the world). But yet some pagans do like to blame it all on Christianity.

I would never say all pagans are anti-Christian. Just as all Christians are not anti-Pagan. It's just unfortunate that the ones (on both sides) who are so loud mouthed and opinionated seem to get heard the most, that's all. And they give the rest a bad name. :(

To me, I don't see why Christianity cannot be seen as just one more pantheon for pagans to be able to appreciate (and even work with if they choose). You've got a Holy Spirit, a God, a man (human child of the Divine), a Holy Mother, Mary Magdalen (a mysterious woman who may have been the first "Christian" feminist ;) or priestess ), and many, many Saints.....and some really wonderful stories, myths, and loads of really wonderful symbolism.

I get a little amused when I hear a pagan bashing the story of Jesus. They get so upset how there was a "virgin birth." Yet they have no problem reading the myth of Athena being born from Zeus's head. I suppose the difference is that Christians say the virgin birth really happened. Well, I am sure the ancient Greeks really were serious about their myths too, back in the day. To me, I see them all as documenting history. Things were told in a story language back then and the symbolism meant something. I think a virgin birth would be magical, myself. The Holy Spirit and God creating a seed and then invoking (is that the correct word here?) it into Mary....that's really wild, I think. From what I have heard/read/learned, it sounds like all the issues with sex and Christianity really came from the dark ages and the kings and rulers back then. It wasn't Jesus who went around making sex a nasty, naughty thing. It was a few hundred years later when all that started getting into the "religion" - which by then, was almost one in the same as the politics and laws. I suppose it just all goes to show that religion and government should never mix. ;)

LordHelmet
July 13th, 2006, 10:34 PM
---- : Bump : ----

Faelon_Moon_Hawk
July 14th, 2006, 10:58 PM
I don't think all pagans are anti-christian..if indeed all pagans can be said to be all anything, lol. From waht i've seen in the various (mostly online) pagan communities i've been in is that most pagans have nothing against christians, unless they are being (or perhaps have been) persecuted or treated badly by them. But from what i've seen most pagans are wiling to live and let live.

rhinoa
July 16th, 2006, 05:50 AM
I voted for Maybe as sadly a lot of Pagans I know can be very anti-Christian. I find it sad when they are and it does bother me. My whole family are Christian and it's how I was brough up. They now respect that I have found a different way and leave me to get on with things, occassionally asking questions and encouraging me too. Everyone at their church is equally lovely and I personally have nothing to complain about. Perhaps I am lucky, but it does sometimes feel like people are being a little narrow minded in their discrimination.

Lovehound
July 16th, 2006, 08:35 PM
I would say not. In fact, I'm one who has been attending Holy Eucharist services at a local Episcopal church of late. The Episcopals are very welcoming (although being in the South, I keep the pagan thing lightly under wraps around them) and have a lot of good to offer. I'm considering officially joining a certain church here.

But I also have my pagan group I'm involved with.

See, it's all about perceiving the mystery in receiving Communion. It's quite awesome, a very powerful religious ritual.

Lovehound
July 16th, 2006, 08:38 PM
You've got a Holy Spirit, a God, a man (human child of the Divine), a Holy Mother, Mary Magdalen (a mysterious woman who may have been the first "Christian" feminist ;) or priestess ),

I don't think the Magdalene would be be thought of as the first Christian feminist, as there were no Christians at that time, but there were different forms of Judaism and different approaches to G-d's Law.

LordHelmet
July 17th, 2006, 01:43 AM
the idea is that Mary Magdalyn may have been the earliest widly accepted holly feminin charecter among christianity. Not really important that it wasn't called christianity when she was alive.

David19
July 18th, 2006, 05:39 PM
I am not anti-Christian. Nor do I think most "Pagans" are.

Just because you come across some people with loud prejudices, or who may say things you dislike, doesn't mean all of the religion is that way.

I could ask the same thing of Christians: Is Christianity (right? That's the correct word I hope) anti-Pagan? Is it anti-Buddhist? Anti-Muslim? Anti-Jewish?

I didn't actually mean to imply that 'all 'pagans'' were 'anti-Christian' (sorry for any confusion caused on my part), it's just i thought i'd just ask a general question than having to go through a list of who is and isn't.

I do agree with what some people have said about some Christian's being 'anti-pagan', but then most i've met don't actually give a crap about 'pagans' (not in a bad way, they just feel there are more important things in the world than religion).

Although something i've noticed is that a lot of the fundametalist's (of the Christian and 'pagan' variety do tend to be concentrated in the U.S., not sure if that means anything, though).

David19
July 18th, 2006, 05:52 PM
I can understand this thread and this question. I have met many pagans who bash anythingand everything Christian. And blame Christianity for, well, pretty much everything. But to me it seems it was more the government and politics back then that created the crap. Not the religion. Jesus did not go around forcing his views on others. It was kings and rulers who did that years after Jesus died. A lot of the things with women not being equal existed before Jesus was even born (look at the Jewish/Hebrew religion and politics and ways of life back then - how women were considered dirty - they couldn't even hold their baby for what, a month after they stopped bleeding after child birth because their menses were seen as dirty - as well as other areas of the world). But yet some pagans do like to blame it all on Christianity.

I would never say all pagans are anti-Christian. Just as all Christians are not anti-Pagan. It's just unfortunate that the ones (on both sides) who are so loud mouthed and opinionated seem to get heard the most, that's all. And they give the rest a bad name. :(

To me, I don't see why Christianity cannot be seen as just one more pantheon for pagans to be able to appreciate (and even work with if they choose). You've got a Holy Spirit, a God, a man (human child of the Divine), a Holy Mother, Mary Magdalen (a mysterious woman who may have been the first "Christian" feminist ;) or priestess ), and many, many Saints.....and some really wonderful stories, myths, and loads of really wonderful symbolism.

I get a little amused when I hear a pagan bashing the story of Jesus. They get so upset how there was a "virgin birth." Yet they have no problem reading the myth of Athena being born from Zeus's head. I suppose the difference is that Christians say the virgin birth really happened. Well, I am sure the ancient Greeks really were serious about their myths too, back in the day. To me, I see them all as documenting history. Things were told in a story language back then and the symbolism meant something. I think a virgin birth would be magical, myself. The Holy Spirit and God creating a seed and then invoking (is that the correct word here?) it into Mary....that's really wild, I think. From what I have heard/read/learned, it sounds like all the issues with sex and Christianity really came from the dark ages and the kings and rulers back then. It wasn't Jesus who went around making sex a nasty, naughty thing. It was a few hundred years later when all that started getting into the "religion" - which by then, was almost one in the same as the politics and laws. I suppose it just all goes to show that religion and government should never mix. ;)

That's exactly what i believe, i think Christianity has a great pantheon of gods and supernatural beings that a 'pagan' can admire, i think the bible, while i haven't read it, is full of mystical symbolism and meanings (just think of the Hoodoo workers in the U.S. and the cunning folk of Britain, i think, that used bible verses for magical ends).

Every time i see or read a 'pagan' site or book that says 'Christianity 'stole' this or 'took' that', etc from 'pagan' cultures and religions really gets on my nerves considering 'pagan' cultures and religions also 'stole' various things and gods from others (e.g. Apollo, i think, does have Arab origins (someone mentioned, on another forum, that it shows because of his connection to divination, sexuality being up for 'debate',etc), etc). It also annoys me because those sites and books seem to be 'saying' that there was 'one 'pagan' religion' who worshiped the 'same' deities (like some will say the Celtic, Norse, Greek, Roman, etc deities are all the same because of a 'shared Indo-European' background', but, the cultures may have a 'similar' background, but that doesn't make the Norse, Greek, Indian's, Celt's, etc the 'same' peoples either).

I know that some 'pagans' do face some kinds of 'persecution' in their lives today from fundamentalist's (probably by living in the bible belt), but, i wouldn't share my beliefs, as they're personal, plus i'm complete crap at explaining them and they'll probably sound incredibly 'wierd' (and also i don't really even have a path to tell anyone about, yet, anyway). I could understand why those 'pagans' who do face 'persecution' may hold some kind of 'anti-Christian' views, but that doesn't excuse others (e.g. SRW, Fiona Horne, other 'pagan' authors, etc) and others in the larger 'pagan' community (i just don't believe that every single 'pagan' out there faces 'persecution', or lives in the 'bible belt', if someone sees 'persecution' everywhere, then, IMO, i think they need to just look at 'reality' a bit more.

But, again just to say, i do really agree with your post, moonthatsheloves,.

And, to others here who've posted, there were some interesting and great replies.

BTW, just to add, in your post you mention something about Christianity's issues with sex emerging in the dark ages, i think that's probably true, but i also think it was due to the fact during Roman persecution of the Christian's, they were raped and sexually abused by their Roman 'masters', and that, i think, led to a type 'fear' or 'revulsion' of sexual matters (it also led to a 'fear' of the darkness, as when they were raped and abused, it was often 'in the dark' (maybe it 'piled' over into the Christian 'collective conciousness' or something. Anyway, just wanted to add that.

stella01904
July 19th, 2006, 11:39 AM
I can understand this thread and this question. I have met many pagans who bash anythingand everything Christian. There is bashing, admittedly. But there is also being accused of bashing when one states that one does not wish to incorporate Jesus into one's religious practice because the two systems are not compatible. This seems to cheese many Christians off to no end.
And blame Christianity for, well, pretty much everything. But to me it seems it was more the government and politics back then that created the crap. Joseph Campbell said, "When you diety is brutal, your decisions tend to be brutal." Believing in an intolerant version of Jesus, whether this was the true picture of the man or not, contributed much to religious persecution, from the Inquisition right up to 20th century boarding schools for Native American children.
To me, I don't see why Christianity cannot be seen as just one more pantheon for pagans to be able to appreciate (and even work with if they choose). Pagan, by definition, is non-Christian/Jewish/Muslim. It is one thing to "appreciate" religions other than one's own. But when one starts "working with" the Christian pantheon, one is no longer Pagan.

I get a little amused when I hear a pagan bashing the story of Jesus. They get so upset how there was a "virgin birth." Yet they have no problem reading the myth of Athena being born from Zeus's head. I suppose the difference is that Christians say the virgin birth really happened. True. Quoting Joseph Campbell again, he once said that the Buddha was born from his mother's side, at the level of her heart. The difference, he said, was that nobody believes this really happened. Buddhists understand metaphors, as do Pagans. The Virgin Birth is a common mythological motif. It is only the Christians who take it literally.
Well, I am sure the ancient Greeks really were serious about their myths too, back in the day. To me, I see them all as documenting history.The Greeks had very sophisticated Mystery Cults. They wouldn't have taken the myths as literal history. A myth is a way of expressing something metaphorically that cannot be expressed literally. The Greeks would have understood this.
Things were told in a story language back then and the symbolism meant something. I think a virgin birth would be magical, myself. The Holy Spirit and God creating a seed and then invoking (is that the correct word here?) it into Mary....that's really wild, I think. The Divine creates all human seeds - in men. The only question is who the man was.
From what I have heard/read/learned, it sounds like all the issues with sex and Christianity really came from the dark ages and the kings and rulers back then. Like Jerry Falwell?
It wasn't Jesus who went around making sex a nasty, naughty thing. He called it a "sin" and spoke against homosexuality.
Stella

David19
July 20th, 2006, 10:21 AM
There is bashing, admittedly. But there is also being accused of bashing when one states that one does not wish to incorporate Jesus into one's religious practice because the two systems are not compatible. This seems to cheese many Christians off to no end. Joseph Campbell said, "When you diety is brutal, your decisions tend to be brutal." Believing in an intolerant version of Jesus, whether this was the true picture of the man or not, contributed much to religious persecution, from the Inquisition right up to 20th century boarding schools for Native American children. Pagan, by definition, is non-Christian/Jewish/Muslim. It is one thing to "appreciate" religions other than one's own. But when one starts "working with" the Christian pantheon, one is no longer Pagan.
True. Quoting Joseph Campbell again, he once said that the Buddha was born from his mother's side, at the level of her heart. The difference, he said, was that nobody believes this really happened. Buddhists understand metaphors, as do Pagans. The Virgin Birth is a common mythological motif. It is only the Christians who take it literally. The Greeks had very sophisticated Mystery Cults. They wouldn't have taken the myths as literal history. A myth is a way of expressing something metaphorically that cannot be expressed literally. The Greeks would have understood this. The Divine creates all human seeds - in men. The only question is who the man was. Like Jerry Falwell? He called it a "sin" and spoke against homosexuality.
Stella

Actually, i have seen a lot of good LGBT Christian sites counter act the claim that Jesus 'was anti-gay', he wasn't, in fact, i think i remember reading he made a comment saying to not harm gay people, plus the early Christian's did perform gay marriages, and from what i've read, the Gnostic's also didn't take all the myths as 'literal'.

But then, does it matter if the myths are taken as literal events (even though most Christian's i know that take everything in the bible as 'true'), i'm a 'hard' polytheist, so i believe that the myths give us an impression of what deities are like (like i believe Yahweh is a 'jealous god', Apollo is bi/gay, Artemis doesn't like men much, Zeus likes anything that moves, etc), i may not see them as happening exactly as the myths say that they did, but i think they give a pretty good view of the deities. Plus not everything has to be symbolic.

Also, the definition of 'pagan' as 'anything not Christian/Jewish/Muslim', is always 'up for debate', as that would make Hindu's and Buddhist's 'pagan', but they're not (Hindu's are Hindu's, they're not Abrahamic and they're not 'pagan', to go to India (or Africa or Asia, etc) and call them 'pagan' would be an insult and likely get you killed or 'worse'), IMO, i just see the word 'pagan' and 'Abrahamic' as dividing people even more (e.g. it draws a line between 'them' and 'us', plus event in the 'neo-pagan' community, there are lots of differences e.g. Hellenic recons aren't really earth based (they may have Gaia, but i don't it's a huge part of their religion), Asatru are more Heathen then 'pagan', Aztec recons and Sumerian recons aren't earth based, the nature of their worship and view of the gods differs vastly to the common view found by 'neo-pagans', etc).

Personally, i don't see a problem with a 'pagan' working with the Christian pantheon (and, from what i've been told by someone i respect, there is a Christian pantheon), for example, a Wiccan 'using' Jesus and Mary is no different than a Wiccan deciding 'hey, i'll just use Zeus and Hera'.

Personally, when people try and take the supernatural out of religions (e.g. when people say the virgin birth couldn't 'really' have happened, etc), it 'takes away' a part of that religion, i think it could have happened as i think to say it 'couldn't have', is to say there's nothing supernatural about this universe/multiverse.

stella01904
July 20th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Actually, i have seen a lot of good LGBT Christian sites counter act the claim that Jesus 'was anti-gay', he wasn't, in fact, i think i remember reading he made a comment saying to not harm gay people, plus the early Christian's did perform gay marriages, and from what i've read, the Gnostic's also didn't take all the myths as 'literal'.

I can find web sites that say Jesus WAS gay and give their reasons why they think so. ("Two men will be lying in bed and one will be taken and the other left...") However, the fact remains that after sticking up for anyone who had anything but straight sex inside the bonds of marriage, Jesus had a tendency to say "Go, and sin no more."

But then, does it matter if the myths are taken as literal events (even though most Christian's i know that take everything in the bible as 'true'), i'm a 'hard' polytheist, so i believe that the myths give us an impression of what deities are like (like i believe Yahweh is a 'jealous god', Apollo is bi/gay, Artemis doesn't like men much, Zeus likes anything that moves, etc), i may not see them as happening exactly as the myths say that they did, but i think they give a pretty good view of the deities. Plus not everything has to be symbolic.You get a view of their personalities, how they work, who to call for what, how to call on them effectively and what for. Doesn't mean they are meant to be taken at face value, though. If they were, you could walk right up Olympus and make an appointment.
Have you read any Joseph Campbell?


Also, the definition of 'pagan' as 'anything not Christian/Jewish/Muslim', is always 'up for debate', as that would make Hindu's and Buddhist's 'pagan', but they're not (Hindu's are Hindu's, they're not Abrahamic and they're not 'pagan', to go to India (or Africa or Asia, etc) and call them 'pagan' would be an insult and likely get you killed or 'worse'),
"Pagan" is a western people's term for anyone not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. Hindus and Buddhists have voiced objections to it, so it is best to let it fall by the wayside when referring to them (out of sensitivity, BTW, not because it is "likely to get you killed and worse" - that only perpetuates a WORSE kind of stereotyping.) So, (kind of like like "colored" - just let it die away) many of us no longer use it in reference to people of Eastern religions. Taking the sensitized definition into account, it would be: "Anyone who is not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist." Which still means you can't be a Christian and a Pagan.

IMO, i just see the word 'pagan' and 'Abrahamic' as dividing people even more (e.g. it draws a line between 'them' and 'us', plus event in the 'neo-pagan' community, there are lots of differences e.g. Hellenic recons aren't really earth based (they may have Gaia, but i don't it's a huge part of their religion), Asatru are more Heathen then 'pagan', Aztec recons and Sumerian recons aren't earth based, the nature of their worship and view of the gods differs vastly to the common view found by 'neo-pagans', etc).One thing that they would ALL have in common is NOT being Bible-based.

Personally, i don't see a problem with a 'pagan' working with the Christian pantheon (and, from what i've been told by someone i respect, there is a Christian pantheon), for example, a Wiccan 'using' Jesus and Mary is no different than a Wiccan deciding 'hey, i'll just use Zeus and Hera'.I just posted this at another thread, but it bears repeating:
"According to a variety of occult writings, not all of them by Christian occultists, the rite of baptism has significant magical effects, and those who have received it are both protected from and shut out from participation in certain magical energies connected with earth magic and the like."
- The New Encyclopedia of the Occult, John Michael Greer, p. 58

When I saw this a few years ago, it worried me, as I'd been baptised when I was much younger and not informed of my options. I started asking questions and was told that it is generally believed that a dedication rite to my patron Goddess nullifies the effects of baptism. Whew! What a relief that was!

The energies are not compatible. Period.


Personally, when people try and take the supernatural out of religions (e.g. when people say the virgin birth couldn't 'really' have happened, etc), it 'takes away' a part of that religion, i think it could have happened as i think to say it 'couldn't have', is to say there's nothing supernatural about this universe/multiverse.
This may surprise you, but there is nothing "supernatural" or "paranormal". Spirit beings and phenomena are perfectly natural and act in accordance with natural law. They are perfectly "normal" and "natural". A physical virgin birth without being inseminated with physical sperm is not. It is an impossibility.
Stella

David19
July 20th, 2006, 02:30 PM
I can find web sites that say Jesus WAS gay and give their reasons why they think so. ("Two men will be lying in bed and one will be taken and the other left...") However, the fact remains that after sticking up for anyone who had anything but straight sex inside the bonds of marriage, Jesus had a tendency to say "Go, and sin no more." You get a view of their personalities, how they work, who to call for what, how to call on them effectively and what for. Doesn't mean they are meant to be taken at face value, though. If they were, you could walk right up Olympus and make an appointment.

That actually makes sense, and is what i believe too (but you put it better in words, Lol).



This may surprise you, but there is nothing "supernatural" or "paranormal". Spirit beings and phenomena are perfectly natural and act in accordance with natural law. They are perfectly "normal" and "natural". A physical virgin birth without being inseminated with physical sperm is not. It is an impossibility.

I know many people don't like believing in the supernatural, and that's fine, but to me, i don't see that everything has a 'natural' explanation or can be 'proved' by science (for example, scientists try and say that gay people are gay because of a 'gene', which is a bunch of BS, IMO, it's just trying to say we're 'genetic freaks' basically), plus there are some things that science can't have a say in (for example, love and hate are powerful motivators, and also spirituality is too, for example, science can't prove or disprove that the Virgin Mary appeared to Mexican Catholic's a bunch of times, but, IMO, i think she did (i'd rather trust what the Mexican's who experienced it have to say than a bunch of, usually, Western scientists who can't get off their asses and look into solving real problems (e.g. hunger, Aids, etc), but that's really for another topic).

I do respect your belief in saying there's 'nothing' supernatural, but to other, indigineous cultures (like the Aztec's, Maya, etc), the supernatural does exist (i've spoken to a Aztec recon), but i guess since the universe or multiverse is so vast, who really knows what natural and supernatural (thought i'd try and use some kind Buddhist philosophy, there, Lol!).

Edit: just rememebered something, in Hinduism, when you work with your chakra's, you start to awaken Siddhi's (supernatural powers), and Hinduism has a culture and religion going back thousands of years, so they know more about 'reality' and the nature of the supernatural.

Romani Vixen
July 20th, 2006, 03:08 PM
Being Pagan doesn't automatically make someone anti-Christian. Some Pagans are, some aren't. just as some Christians are anti-Pagan.

Generalizations suck big arse donkey ....

RavenMoonshadow
July 20th, 2006, 03:16 PM
Personally I really think it depends on the pagan I my self an mot anti christian, I acually convinced my christian room mate that he needs to go to church more

CleftOfLight
July 20th, 2006, 03:24 PM
Do be honest,I dont understand being anti any religion,or dragging there founders into the mud.I mean its not Jesus fault if christains murdered Pagans in revenge of the pagans murdering them.And so on and so forth.

As far as miracles,jesus virgin birth,buddha being born at the heart level,parting the red sea,etc etc etc.I see no reason why they couldn't of happened.With faith deep faith all is possible.

As a jewish rabbi told me: If it is written that way,then that is what happened.

I have learned so much from buddhst,taoist,muslims,pagans,christains,jews,sikhs,that I dont see any negativity in any religion.There might be some foolish people doing foolish things using religion as a scape goat for there insanity,but we can not blame the religion itself for foolish people.Otherwise,no religion would be worth being apart of or learning from.

I myself am an interspiritualst with a definate Esoteric Christain bent,but I do use Buddha's teachings,mantras,different forms of prayer,and so on and so forth.I also read other holy books besides the bible to gain insght and further knowledge and understand of the Creator.

If it helps you,who is anyone else to try to take that away from you.

To answer the question are pagans anti-christain,I say some are but some aren't.That is the honest answer.I have met pagans that absolutely hated christinity along with the bible ane the J-man.But I also met others that didnt.

Oh yea,just because things like virgin births and miracles happen in other cultures and time frames,doesn't make it any less significant when it happens in another culture in another time frame.I believe that is the Creator's way of telling us someting.

Well thats my rant.

David19
July 20th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Do be honest,I dont understand being anti any religion,or dragging there founders into the mud.I mean its not Jesus fault if christains murdered Pagans in revenge of the pagans murdering them.And so on and so forth.

As far as miracles,jesus virgin birth,buddha being born at the heart level,parting the red sea,etc etc etc.I see no reason why they couldn't of happened.With faith deep faith all is possible.

As a jewish rabbi told me: If it is written that way,then that is what happened.

I agree with you completly.

Crysiira
July 20th, 2006, 06:03 PM
"According to a variety of occult writings, not all of them by Christian occultists, the rite of baptism has significant magical effects, and those who have received it are both protected from and shut out from participation in certain magical energies connected with earth magic and the like."
- The New Encyclopedia of the Occult, John Michael Greer, p. 58


The energies are not compatible. Period.

I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you on that one. I understand in your opinion Christianity and Paganism aren't compatible, but that doesn't mean that everone's opinions are the same. I myself don't interact with the Christian pantheon, but I know many people who are pagan that do. They find the energies quite compatible for their own lifestyles. You don't. That's ok, to each their own. Just please don't say others can't have different opinions. Maybe I'm just misreading you...

stella01904
July 20th, 2006, 06:40 PM
As a jewish rabbi told me: If it is written that way,then that is what happened.I think what he might have meant by that would be something similar to what Black Elk said after telling the story of how Calf Pipe Woman appeared to the Lakota and gave them their religious rituals:

"This they tell. And whether it happened this way or not, I do not know, but if you think about it you can see that it is true."

In Kundun, the young Dalai Lama is looking at a picture of the guardian spirit of Tibet, and asks if she is real or pretend. His teacher assures him, "She is real", and he is not lying, even though there is no physical being like this.

These things are expressive of something very deep that is somewhat beyond words. That is the PURPOSE of myths, metaphors, parables, etc.

As Joe Campbell said, (refering to Black Elk's comment that "anyplace is the center of the earth") "This was a man who knew his metaphors."
Stella

stella01904
July 20th, 2006, 06:46 PM
I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you on that one. I understand in your opinion Christianity and Paganism aren't compatible, but that doesn't mean that everone's opinions are the same.... Just please don't say others can't have different opinions. Maybe I'm just misreading you...
I wouldn't pass a law saying "YOU CAN'T", that would be stupid! But they go together about as well as ice cream mixed with Wolf Brand Chili.

Crysiira
July 20th, 2006, 06:55 PM
I wouldn't pass a law saying "YOU CAN'T", that would be stupid! But they go together about as well as ice cream mixed with Wolf Brand Chili.

Oddly enough, I recently read an article about a guy who comes up with wierd ice cream flavors who just made a triple-pepper flavor..... lol

Amythyst
July 20th, 2006, 09:57 PM
Anyone can be "anti" anything.

Moonlight's Daughter
July 21st, 2006, 06:31 PM
Umm............ All through out the bible.

I have read the bible from front to back so I do know what I am talking about.


Newsflash-the bible was actually written by MAN-not god.

Marcasite
July 21st, 2006, 07:17 PM
I'm certainly far from anti-Christian. I know many Christians who are wonderful people with healthy spiritualities. My fiance's grandmother is an extremely religious Christian and one of the sweetest people I've met in my life! I think she has a beautiful connection with her God and Christ. She has no idea we're pagan so we suck it up and gratefully accept all sorts of 'Jesus loves you' cards and the suchlike. I think it's sweet :D My sister is also a Christian (she's a closet Christian :lol: ) and she has a healthy spirituality too. I think some people are too judgemental. A fundamentalist of any faith is no fun and there are some darned annoying Christians out there but there are just as many with healthy spiritualities who blossom in the religion. I would hope most Pagans would know better than to sterotype someone because they follow a specific religion.

Lovehound
July 23rd, 2006, 08:31 AM
Here's the question that needs to be asked here:

Are people taking the Bible literally but their own mythic system not literally?

If so, why?

There is much spiritual truth in the Bible that is in fact compatible with pagan spiritual truth. I found one the other day: the golden rule. In the Eddas, it's phrased a bit differently: "A gift demands a gift." In the Bible it's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

But it still means "if you would have people treat you well, with respect, you gotta show some respect first."

And the virgin birth thing - there is no way that can be taken literally. When approaching the Bible, it helps to have a smattering of Hebrew and Greek under one's belt, so as to understand the concepts expressed in the Scriptures. (There's that culture/language thing again as I expressed in the Racism thread. Since most of us are not native speakers of Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic, it's very hard for us to understand what is actually written and expressed in the Scriptures, unless we read the actual source documents for ourselves instead of relying on a translation - because one will get a very different message with each translation one reads, even if every translation one reads is English.) So, when it comes to the Virgin Birth, one has to make sure one understands what is meant by the Hebrew word "almah" which most translate as "virgin" but some translate as "young girl." Then you have the question of "what does virgin actually mean?" Artemis, as I understand it, is often described as a virgin Goddess but I would say that the word "virgin" in this case does not mean "chaste" or sexually inexperienced. To me, "virgin" means pure - uncorrupt - her own being, answerable/subject to no one else - sacrificial - free - that kind of thing. "Virgin" does not necessarily mean "sexually untouched" only.

By the way, yes, to me Artemis and any other "virgin goddess" would be sacrificial in my eyes. Because such "virginal purity" of anything - mind, body, spirit, whatever - requires "sacrifice" or "setting aside" those things that are of value to one ("sacrifice" means "to set aside") and not allow that to be subject to anyone else's interpretation or rules or whatever. Sacrifice requires saying no to certain things - setting boundaries, saying "This I cannot do, for I am holding myself pure for my Goddess." That can mean sexual activity, but it can also mean abstaining from alcohol. Or flesh food. Or unleavened bread. Or caffeine. Fasting is a form of sacrifice.

I'm really surprised people do not know this already. Ponder it, meditate on it, learn it! People toss words around like "virgin" and "sacrifice" without really understanding what they themselves mean by it!

Anyway, it's like the difference between "celibate" and "chaste." "Celibate" means you're not married - not that you don't have sex. "Chaste" means you don't have sex, married or not.

Such hairsplitting with words makes all the difference in the world. It makes a difference as to whether or not one understands what one is reading in any given holy text.

Now, since it is not necessary at all to take the Bible literally, no more so than any other myth, it does become easier to do both, to have both in one's spiritual life. Especially when one takes the time (unless, of course, one is just too lazy to do the work) to learn what these words mean and learn about the culture that the holy text was rooted in and what values they held and why.

There's that cultural thing again. I keep coming back to it. It is important to understand a faith's root culture and language if one is going to properly assimilate it into one's own spiritual walk. If one then chooses to do something new with it, at least one has a good grounding to start with.

And, when one is a mystic anyway, and has seen the Divine Light that informs all of life and all of what we call "religion" it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what holy book you read out of.

David19
July 23rd, 2006, 10:00 AM
I was just on the crookedheath.com, and just read the 'rant on the Da Vinci code' (http://www.thecrookedheath.com/davinci.htm)article, and some things he (Robin Artisson) said, seemed anti-Christian, to me, for example:


Jesus takes his seat next to all the other worn-out godly beings and faces and statues that history ceaselessly devours. Like all empires or religions that fail, and like all humans who come to death, there's always this last spasm of desperation, this last "reaching out" to grasp at what they can no longer have. Fundamentalism is what has appeared, as the very death-rattle of the spirit of christianity. May it rest in peace.

Until christianity is just a relic of history, which it certainly will be one day


IMO, the guy really needs to come back to 'reality' and realise that the Christian fundamentalist's exist mainly in the U.S. (there may be a few in the world, but all fundamentalist's seem to 'swarm' around America as my Irish Catholic dad says), he seems to think that Christianity is 'evil' and that 'pagan' religions are 'where it's at' (when really there is no where that 'has it all', we're all trying to get 'some where' and we're all in the 'same boat').

But then, as another Cochrane witch has told me, 'Robin Artisson' isn't really a 'part' of Traditional witchcraft (and i've heard he's been dismissed as a 'loon' by several people, including Nigel Jackson and Paul Huson).

moonthatsheloves
July 23rd, 2006, 11:28 AM
I don't think the Magdalene would be be thought of as the first Christian feminist, as there were no Christians at that time, but there were different forms of Judaism and different approaches to G-d's Law.

Oh. I thought she was one of the first Christians, but it just was not called Christianity yet...??? I don't know. Maybe I am off on that. I was raised Catholic but certainly was no expert. All this talk of Mary Magdalene is more recent anyways than when I was in church and going to classes. But I was thinking of Christianity as "followers of Christ"...???

Anyway, concerning the topic of this thread, I really like the reply someone had said - that anyone can be anti- anything. That really sums it all up.

Lovehound
July 23rd, 2006, 01:13 PM
So....here's something I got from services just this morning - a reading from Isaiah 58, the whole of which is found here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2058;&version=31;

There's nothing in that chapter that is incompatible with pagan spirituality. But especially verses 6-10. As for me, these verses right here send a thrill right through me:


6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

Selah......and amen! What promise!

Here's another version of the same; sometimes reading different translations makes things even more clear:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2058;&version=65;

Bear in mind that this was likely written actually by some of Isaiah's disciples (much of the book of Isaiah from chapter 55 onward was written by his disciples), and it was also written some, oh, 600 years before Christ.

Remember that the Jews were a people very much concerned with justice, which is also a pagan thew or virtue. G-d is also a G-d of justice and righteousness, something that is also not incompatible with pagan spirituality. I have seen that His justice always comes to pass, but not always in the time or way in which a human would want it to. Divine justice often works that way, no matter which divinity is in question.

And Isaiah 58 is a reminder of how we can do all this fasting and bowing of heads and go through the motions of worship, but it's all worthless if we have not fed the hungry, assisted the poor, healed the sick, crushed the yoke of oppression that our neighbor might struggle under, etc.

None of this is incompatible with pagan spirituality and ideas of serving G-d by serving our neighbor.

So, in answer to the question "are pagans anti-Christian" and bearing in mind that to be Christian means:

1: to be "like Christ" Who selflessly gave His life and was willing to accept unto Himself G-d's justice for our wrongdoings, because He loved us so much He could not bear to see us fall into the hands of the Adversary:


John 15:13: "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

2: to love the Lord G-d with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, because ALL the law and the prophets depend on this;

3: serving G-d by serving each other is Christian calling, just as it is/was Jewish calling;

then no, I would say that pagans are not anti-Christian or anti-Jewish and need never be anti-Christian or anti-Jewish.

Remember that the Nazarene was operating from His perspective as an observant Jew (contrary to what some pagans out there claim; some like to say that he was a witch, which is complete nonsense, rubbish, BS) and these were the standards Jews lived by, as laid down in the law of Moses. He just introduced a new understanding of the law.

More and more, I keep thinking I may seek ordination as an Episcopal priest, because I believe heart and soul that G-d is real, G-d moves in this life, and G-d really does love us dearly and we can come to Him with joy and thanksgiving. It's like the one song:

"Can you feel the joy - Don't it make you wanna Jump Jump Jump - Don't it make you wanna Move Move Move - Throw your hands to the Roof Roof Roof!"

There is no need, none, to be afraid of G-d. "Fear" as in "respect for His power" is appropriate ("fear" doesn't always mean "cowering and shivering"), but most appropriate is an attitude of thankfulness - we human beings are completely blessed beyond our wildest imaginings. The kingdom of G-d IS spread upon the earth, and man does not see it.

aluokaloo
July 24th, 2006, 07:48 AM
depends on the pagan. so I put other.

ViolinGoddess
July 28th, 2006, 12:38 AM
Some of them are.......
Violin Goddess

Snapdragon
July 30th, 2006, 03:51 PM
Individuals vary.

That said, pagan religion is simply irrelvant to Xianity--and vice versa. The owner of this board can do whatever he wants, but to have a "pagan retreat" where there are also "Christian pagans," is nonsensical.

I'm looking forward to our self-proclaimation of Christian Jews, Christian Moslems, Christian Hindus, and so on and so on.

There comes a point where language is sufficiently abused, that it ceases to be meaningful.

So, it isn't a matter of "anti"--it's a matter of mutually exclusive.

LostSheep
July 30th, 2006, 04:17 PM
I can't help feeling, if this board is representative of the pagan population as a whole, that there does seem to be a strong element of anti-Christian feeling. I don't know if Christianity is the only religion that it's ok to rubbish and deny the validity of here, but it cerrtainly seems that way sometimes. I'm thinking of some of the responses in a particular thread in Just Talk in particular. Statements, with absolute certainty, that Chrsitianity is a "scam" and the Jesus never existed. And these aren't just opinions; they're facts. As someone said just recently in response to someone questioning how he could be so certain, "You're wrong. Jesus never existed".

So anti-Christian?

I know there are some pagans who've had bad experiences with fundamentalists, but to therefore say that Christianity has no validity or is a "scam" is, well, isn't that just as fundamentalist? Isn't absolute certainty -"You're wrong", "I know", just the opposite of what paganism, which is supposed to be about open-mindedness and lack of dogma, is supposed to be about?

In case you're wondering, I don't think of myself as a Christian in the conventional sense - I don't follow the established churches, and I reject a lot of the Bible - but I do acknowledge and try to follow the example of Jesus. And if some people think that i shouldn't, or they're "mutually exclusive", then, well, ... sorry.

*edited to add: before anyone takes exception, of course I wasn't talking about everybody, or even most, but there's undeniably an element that does think so.*

Chibi-Fallon
July 30th, 2006, 04:23 PM
Christianity is where a lot of people come from. It's natural that they would want to reject it after moving away from it.
It's not right, but it's natural. Sort of like when you break up someone, even if they were a decent person you dwell on their bad qualities.

David19
July 30th, 2006, 04:33 PM
I can't help feeling, if this board is representative of the pagan population as a whole, that there does seem to be a strong element of anti-Christian feeling. I don't know if Christianity is the only religion that it's ok to rubbish and deny the validity of here, but it cerrtainly seems that way sometimes. I'm thinking of some of the responses in a particular thread in Just Talk in particular. Statements, with absolute certainty, that Chrsitianity is a "scam" and the Jesus never existed. And these aren't just opinions; they're facts. As someone said just recently in response to someone questioning how he could be so certain, "You're wrong. Jesus never existed".

So anti-Christian?

I know there are some pagans who've had bad experiences with fundamentalists, but to therefore say that Christianity has no validity or is a "scam" is, well, isn't that just as fundamentalist? Isn't absolute certainty -"You're wrong", "I know", just the opposite of what paganism, which is supposed to be about open-mindedness and lack of dogma, is supposed to be about?

In case you're wondering, I don't think of myself as a Christian in the conventional sense - I don't follow the established churches, and I reject a lot of the Bible - but I do acknowledge and try to follow the example of Jesus. And if some people think that i shouldn't, or they're "mutually exclusive", then, well, ... sorry.

*edited to add: before anyone takes exception, of course I wasn't talking about everybody, or even most, but there's undeniably an element that does think so.*

I think i agree with you, and i've seen people on other forums always saying that Jesus 'didn't exist' (for example, there was one woman, and a man, who made a post saying he 'didn't exist', and didn't want to 'accept' any evidence that he did).

I think he did, and some of the sites people use to say he 'didn't', are things like www.jesusneverexisted.com (a site, that, IMO, is just BS and very anti-Semitic), as a theology student told me, to learn the 'truth', you have to look to actual books published by actual scholar's, and that a lot of sites on the internet are usually 'made up' or BS.

I also think he did exist, 'cause another 'pagan' provided some evidence for me.

BTW, just in case anyone is wondering, i am a 'pagan' (just haven't found a path yet), but i can still accept that Jesus, YHWH, Mary, etc all exist, just as i accept Zeus, Apollo, Isis, Inanna, Odin, Thor, etc as all existing, and i don't see a 'contradiction' (on some sites, i used to go to, when i was first found 'paganism', many people seemed to think accepting YHWH or Jesus as gods, it somehow 'invalidated' their own religion, which i don't see, but maybe it's because i'm a 'hard' polytheist).

LostSheep
July 30th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Christianity is where a lot of people come from. It's natural that they would want to reject it after moving away from it.
It's not right, but it's natural. Sort of like when you break up someone, even if they were a decent person you dwell on their bad qualities.
yes, i think there's a lot of truth in that. ... that was kind of how it was with me really, after being taught the accepted wisdom at school, I decided that it didn't work for me and rejected it, but then as I read some alternative interpretations of what Jesus may actually have meant, it made sense to me, and I realised that what he said about the "kingdom of God" being all around us wasn't so different from the way i see God, or whatver you want to call it (i think I'd call myself a pantheist - I see God/the spirit/whatever as being in all natural things and "out there" somewhere at the same time.)

StephanieAine
July 30th, 2006, 05:58 PM
So....here's something I got from services just this morning - a reading from Isaiah 58, the whole of which is found here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2058;&version=31;

There's nothing in that chapter that is incompatible with pagan spirituality. But especially verses 6-10. As for me, these verses right here send a thrill right through me:



Selah......and amen! What promise!

Here's another version of the same; sometimes reading different translations makes things even more clear:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2058;&version=65;

Bear in mind that this was likely written actually by some of Isaiah's disciples (much of the book of Isaiah from chapter 55 onward was written by his disciples), and it was also written some, oh, 600 years before Christ.

Remember that the Jews were a people very much concerned with justice, which is also a pagan thew or virtue. G-d is also a G-d of justice and righteousness, something that is also not incompatible with pagan spirituality. I have seen that His justice always comes to pass, but not always in the time or way in which a human would want it to. Divine justice often works that way, no matter which divinity is in question.

And Isaiah 58 is a reminder of how we can do all this fasting and bowing of heads and go through the motions of worship, but it's all worthless if we have not fed the hungry, assisted the poor, healed the sick, crushed the yoke of oppression that our neighbor might struggle under, etc.

None of this is incompatible with pagan spirituality and ideas of serving G-d by serving our neighbor.

So, in answer to the question "are pagans anti-Christian" and bearing in mind that to be Christian means:

1: to be "like Christ" Who selflessly gave His life and was willing to accept unto Himself G-d's justice for our wrongdoings, because He loved us so much He could not bear to see us fall into the hands of the Adversary:



2: to love the Lord G-d with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, because ALL the law and the prophets depend on this;

3: serving G-d by serving each other is Christian calling, just as it is/was Jewish calling;

then no, I would say that pagans are not anti-Christian or anti-Jewish and need never be anti-Christian or anti-Jewish.

Remember that the Nazarene was operating from His perspective as an observant Jew (contrary to what some pagans out there claim; some like to say that he was a witch, which is complete nonsense, rubbish, BS) and these were the standards Jews lived by, as laid down in the law of Moses. He just introduced a new understanding of the law.

More and more, I keep thinking I may seek ordination as an Episcopal priest, because I believe heart and soul that G-d is real, G-d moves in this life, and G-d really does love us dearly and we can come to Him with joy and thanksgiving. It's like the one song:

"Can you feel the joy - Don't it make you wanna Jump Jump Jump - Don't it make you wanna Move Move Move - Throw your hands to the Roof Roof Roof!"

There is no need, none, to be afraid of G-d. "Fear" as in "respect for His power" is appropriate ("fear" doesn't always mean "cowering and shivering"), but most appropriate is an attitude of thankfulness - we human beings are completely blessed beyond our wildest imaginings. The kingdom of G-d IS spread upon the earth, and man does not see it.




Thank you for that beautiful post!

With thanks, and wishes for many blessings to you,

amunakht
July 30th, 2006, 06:58 PM
Some pagan religions were against Christianity like the Romans but others were not. The Norse were violent but they didn't attack Christian towns just because they were Christian but because they wanted to loot. The Egyptians didn't hunt down Christians (and jews) either. It was mainly just the Romans.

Personally I am anti-Christian in a way but it is not the Christian thought I hate, it is those fundamentalist Christians so you can call me anti-fundementalist Christian.

It is more of an individual thought to be anti-christian. It is also many ex-christians that commit blasphemy rites. For those that do not know of blasphemy rites, they are some "rites" that many satanists and less commonly pagans do to mock Christianity. They may go take a dump and use pages of the bible to wipe themselves, spit on the faces of christian holy images, etc.

Neosnoia
July 30th, 2006, 07:03 PM
I hang out here because, in all honesty, the people here are nicer than they are at the Christian boards.

Plus, I'm not your "average" Christian. I'm not a literalist. I'm not an inerrantist. I'm not a fundamentalist.

Actually, I guess that makes me an average Christian after all. :)

Fundamentalism is a very vocal minority that seems to think it has the right to define the path for everybody. They don't.

As far as Christians not being able to be pagan too (or vice versa) - What about Hermeticism, Gnosticism or Neoplatonism?

And there are a few writers that think that the story of Jesus was based on preexisting "dying God-man" myths. That would, for arguments sake, make Christianity as pagan as anything.

Just sayin' :hahugh:

StephanieAine
July 30th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Some pagan religions were against Christianity like the Romans but others were not. The Norse were violent but they didn't attack Christian towns just because they were Christian but because they wanted to loot. The Egyptians didn't hunt down Christians (and jews) either. It was mainly just the Romans.

Personally I am anti-Christian in a way but it is not the Christian thought I hate, it is those fundamentalist Christians so you can call me anti-fundementalist Christian.

It is more of an individual thought to be anti-christian. It is also many ex-christians that commit blasphemy rites. For those that do not know of blasphemy rites, they are some "rites" that many satanists and less commonly pagans do to mock Christianity. They may go take a dump and use pages of the bible to wipe themselves, spit on the faces of christian holy images, etc.

Dear God.
Please tell me that isn't really true; that's beyond horrible.

amunakht
July 30th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Yes it is true. Some, the more extreme ones, even throw their own human feces at the christian holy images. Now, I'm not trying to disgust people but it's just informational.

Silverfire Darkmoon
July 30th, 2006, 11:32 PM
Keeping in mind that that 'some' is a very small 'some' indeed.
I hold by my statement: When Wiccans and pagans crap endlessly on Christianity, really, they're either scared that they may be wrong to be pagans and need to justify why they're not Christians, or they's jealous that Christianity was there first and consequently they need to invalidate it. And those people have NO RIGHT calling themselves Wiccans. A man I respect very much once told me I was the most Christ-like person he knew (probably because I very serenely dealt with a huge problem in my life that was not my fault in the least) and I took it (and still do) as an absolutely enormous compliment.

amunakht
July 30th, 2006, 11:46 PM
be wrong to be pagans and need to justify why they're not Christians, or they's jealous that Christianity was there first

Christianity was NOT THERE FIRST. It was founded about 2000 years ago. Where as traditional pagan religions have been there for way longer. Even judaism is not nearly as old as things like hinduism. It is IGNORANT on your part to say that "Christianity was there first"

Protagonist
July 31st, 2006, 12:59 AM
Christianity was NOT THERE FIRST. It was founded about 2000 years ago. Where as traditional Pagan religions have been there for way longer. Even judaism is not nearly as old as things like hinduism. It is IGNORANT on your part to say that "Christianity was there first"
Most of the pagan traditions that're prevalent today are a lot younger than Christianity, though. In fact, aside from the recons, all of them are. Besides, most of the pagans who whine about Christianity are Wiccans (probably simply because Wicca is the most common pagan religion in North America and Europe,) and Wicca is about 50 years old. Silverfire seemed to be referring in particular to Wicca, anyways.

Ptah
July 31st, 2006, 02:33 AM
Yes it is true. Some, the more extreme ones, even throw their own human feces at the christian holy images. Now, I'm not trying to disgust people but it's just informational.

I don't know who you are hanging out with but I've been active in the pagan community for many years and I have never heard of anything similar to that ever happening. :thumbsdow

Chibi-Fallon
July 31st, 2006, 02:46 AM
Christianity was NOT THERE FIRST. It was founded about 2000 years ago. Where as traditional pagan religions have been there for way longer. Even judaism is not nearly as old as things like hinduism. It is IGNORANT on your part to say that "Christianity was there first"
I think he was speaking of Wicca, not Paganism in general. Calm down. _inabox_

LostSheep
July 31st, 2006, 03:22 AM
It is also many ex-christians that commit blasphemy rites. For those that do not know of blasphemy rites, they are some "rites" that many satanists and less commonly pagans do to mock Christianity. They may go take a dump and use pages of the bible to wipe themselves, spit on the faces of christian holy images, etc.
:foh: That sounds like something Landover Baptist Church would come up with accusing Wiccans of doing ....

if there are people who really do that, they seriously need help .... _inabox_

Silverfire Darkmoon
July 31st, 2006, 10:19 AM
I was referring primarily to Wicca, yes, because it's the most common modern pagan religion nowadays, and because Wicca was the beginning of the pagan revival in a HUGE way. Now, it's also true that many modern pagans working with ancient gods are doing so in an entirely new and original way that would not have been practiced by the people who first worshipped those gods, so it's very much a new religion. Yes, you've got your reconstructionists, but they're not nearly as common as your garden-variety neo-pagan and, to be honest, often what we've got on the practices of ancient pagans is fragmentary. I should have been more clear. I apologise.

stella01904
July 31st, 2006, 11:24 AM
:foh: That sounds like something Landover Baptist Church would come up with accusing Wiccans of doing ....
That's what I was going to say!

Cain
July 31st, 2006, 11:26 AM
:foh: That sounds like something Landover Baptist Church would come up with accusing Wiccans of doing ....

if there are people who really do that, they seriously need help .... _inabox_

Its not that surprising. Many supposed satanists (as opposed to Satanists, note the capital "s") are usually disillusioned or disturbed individuals from a strong Christian background.

stella01904
July 31st, 2006, 11:28 AM
Now, it's also true that many modern pagans working with ancient gods are doing so in an entirely new and original way that would not have been practiced by the people who first worshipped those gods, so it's very much a new religion. Well, not many of us are living on farms anymore, we've had to adapt. That doesn't make it a new religion. After all, when the people went from hunting cultures to farming cultures, the Horned God aquired goat's horns instead of stag horns, there were alterations, but it was the same religion, only some of the forms and methods had changed.
BB,

amunakht
July 31st, 2006, 01:01 PM
I hold by my statement: When Wiccans and pagans crap endlessly on Christianity, really,

See this quote, he said Wiccans AND Pagans


the practices of ancient pagans is fragmentary

There are still those people that have kept up Pagan religions such as the couragous Greeks that kept worshipping the Greek gods after Constantine. And you can't forget about Hindus, they have been Hindus for way before Judaism and they continue to be Hindus.


That sounds like something Landover Baptist Church would come up with accusing Wiccans of doing ....

That is extremely rare among pagans but it IS COMMON with Satanists. Google "diabolatry" and go to the sites that come up. Satanists DO that. I've researched theistic Diabolatry and I KNOW. Its not Theistic forms of Satanists that just do that but also atheistic Satanists. I know this doesn't compare to the previous things I was talking about but Marilyn Manson tears up bibles on stage.

Lunacie
July 31st, 2006, 01:04 PM
And Christians have done some pretty horrible things to Pagans too. Of course we don't have churches with statues and holy books so they target Pagan and NewAge stores, and try to have children taken from their Pagan families and get people fired from their jobs. Some people are just horrible and they justify their actions by using their religions. Some people are angry at the way they've been treated by people of certain religions and react in horrible ways. Compared to what is happening in other countries where men are being killed and women are being raped in the name of religion - well I can understand being upset about someone spitting on a statue or an image of the cross or using the bible for toilet paper, but there's really no comparison.

amunakht
July 31st, 2006, 01:19 PM
And Christians have done some pretty horrible things to Pagans too. Of course we don't have churches with statues and holy books so they target Pagan and NewAge stores, and try to have children taken from their Pagan families and get people fired from their jobs. Some people are just horrible and they justify their actions by using their religions. Some people are angry at the way they've been treated by people of certain religions and react in horrible ways. Compared to what is happening in other countries where men are being killed and women are being raped in the name of religion - well I can understand being upset about someone spitting on a statue or an image of the cross or using the bible for toilet paper, but there's really no comparison.

Yup I agree.

David19
July 31st, 2006, 02:24 PM
See this quote, he said Wiccans AND Pagans



There are still those people that have kept up Pagan religions such as the couragous Greeks that kept worshipping the Greek gods after Constantine. And you can't forget about Hindus, they have been Hindus for way before Judaism and they continue to be Hindus.



That is extremely rare among pagans but it IS COMMON with Satanists. Google "diabolatry" and go to the sites that come up. Satanists DO that. I've researched theistic Diabolatry and I KNOW. Its not Theistic forms of Satanists that just do that but also atheistic Satanists. I know this doesn't compare to the previous things I was talking about but Marilyn Manson tears up bibles on stage.

Just wanted to say, Hinduism isn't 'pagan', in fact, to go to India and call a Hindu a 'pagan' would be a deep insult to them (and, also, while there are religions older than Judaism, Judaism does have ancient links e.g. the Sumerian religion, i was told by a Sumerian recon that Abraham was an Akkadian who worshipped the Sumerian gods, and the Hebrew's did come from Mesopotamia (Iraq)).

David19
July 31st, 2006, 02:27 PM
And Christians have done some pretty horrible things to Pagans too. Of course we don't have churches with statues and holy books so they target Pagan and NewAge stores, and try to have children taken from their Pagan families and get people fired from their jobs. Some people are just horrible and they justify their actions by using their religions. Some people are angry at the way they've been treated by people of certain religions and react in horrible ways.

I know Christian's have done horrible things to others (and the worst wasn't against pagans, it was against Jews, LGBT people, Native American's, African's).

Maybe this is because i live in the UK, but i haven't seen anyone attack 'New Age' stores.

amunakht
July 31st, 2006, 03:27 PM
Hindus are still polytheist.


I know Christian's have done horrible things to others (and the worst wasn't against pagans, it was against Jews, LGBT people, Native American's, African's).

Youre not talking about Christians doing it, you're talking about white people doing it. Jews were persecuted because of their RACE not religion (Jews are not exactly white). gay people have nothing to do with religion. They're mostly persecuted because of their feminine matter so its straight people that do it, im SURE there is christian gays. For Native Americans and Africans it was RACE that mattered NOT religion.

You're saying the worst was not done to pagans but there was worse things done to pagans than gays. There was more done to Jews, and other races but c'mon-gays, you're just saying that because you're gay. Gays have not been mass executed as pagans have in the past. Sure theres beatings and sometimes even killings but not mass executions and torture sponsored by the GOVERNMENTS. No burning alive. Take this information I gathered from Wikipedia " Charlemagne in the course of the Saxon Wars converted Saxon pagans by force. In 772 he destroyed their Irminsul, and in 782 he allegedly ordered the beheading of 4,500 Saxon nobles who were caught practicing paganism in spite of being baptized". The great Egyptian and Greek temples were turned into WHORE HOUSES and the statues of the gods defaced and destroyed.

LostSheep
July 31st, 2006, 04:09 PM
yes, the Christian church did some horrible things ...

but the Christian church is not Christianity. It's really got very little to do with Jesus (whoever he may or may not have been historically) was about; the ideals represented by Jesus, perhaps we should say. A lot of what the Christian church has said and done is really what Paul believed or wanted to believe; it's been called in other threads 'paulinity', which i think is a good way of describing it.

So I'm not trying to defend the Christian church; but maybe I do wish that Jesus - whether real or mythological - or at least the ideals that have been recorded in his name - could be separated from what the church has done in his name.

sadly I think it's a bit late now though ...

Les_Nubian
July 31st, 2006, 04:51 PM
I'm not anti-Christian, but I am anti-Christianity, in the sense that I would never even consider that faith if someone put a gun to my head and told me to convert, I would tell them to just shoot.

I used to call myself a Christian a while ago. Did the whole she'bang...called myself having some "holy ghost", got "baptised", prayed, and called myself "preaching" to people about Jesus Christ. And it didn't suit me.

David19
July 31st, 2006, 06:11 PM
[QUOTE=LostSheep]yes, the Christian church did some horrible things ...

but the Christian church is not Christianity. It's really got very little to do with Jesus (whoever he may or may not have been historically) was about; the ideals represented by Jesus, perhaps we should say. A lot of what the Christian church has said and done is really what Paul believed or wanted to believe; it's been called in other threads 'paulinity', which i think is a good way of describing it. [QUOTE]

I agree with you, exactly :).

I've heard some people call the bad parts of Christianity 'Churchianity' (or something like that), basically, i think, when Christian's ignored what Jesus actually said and his ideals, and listened more to the Church.

Great post, BTW :).

amunakht
July 31st, 2006, 07:28 PM
Maybe, just maybe, Gnosticism might be the real Christianity. The church edited the Gnostic gospels from the bible.

StephanieAine
July 31st, 2006, 11:59 PM
Maybe, just maybe, Gnosticism might be the real Christianity. The church edited the Gnostic gospels from the bible.

Where are you getting this bit about Gnosticism perhaps being "the real Christianity"? What are you basing that on?

Whatever books were included or excluded from the final compilation of scripture books included in the Bible has little do to with what Christianity is or isn't. In fact, the Catholic versions of the Bible contain more books than the versions of the Bible used by Protestants.

The books included or excluded had to do with which books were determined to be inspired by God or simply historical books that can be learned from, but not holy writ. (So, although a Protestant would find a Catholic Bible to be a Bible even though it includes what would be, in a Protestant's viewpoint, "extra" books... those "extra" books wouldn't be seen as Scripture by the Protestant. The Protestant would consider them to be valuable and meaningful for their content - but not God's word.)

The "real" Christianity is easy enough to define by Scripture itself - and I'm speaking of Scripture included in the versions of the Bible used by all denominations of the Christian faith. "Real" Christianity is universal and has nothing to do with denomination (although Catholics believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only real church). A Christian is one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, the Son of God, and has a personal relationship with Him.

Gnostic teachings contain a lot of concepts that go *against* what the Bible teaches (both Catholic Bibles and Protestant Bibles). That's why most Christians would disagree with it, and why denominations of the various kinds are against Gnosticism. It's very controversial.

Protagonist
August 1st, 2006, 12:07 AM
See this quote, he said Wiccans AND Pagans

It's quite possible he meant neo-paganism, which, after all, is the most common form of paganism after Wicca. And, hey, he sort of already clarified the statement by saying that he WAS primarily referring to Wiccans.

LordHelmet
August 1st, 2006, 03:36 AM
No no no Protagonist, thats the smart way to think. Lets just keep on correcting him after he corrected himself instead. ;)

(this is a joke contained in this post)

LordHelmet
August 1st, 2006, 03:41 AM
Some pagan religions were against Christianity like the Romans but others were not. The Norse were violent but they didn't attack Christian towns just because they were Christian but because they wanted to loot. The Egyptians didn't hunt down Christians (and jews) either. It was mainly just the Romans.

Personally I am anti-Christian in a way but it is not the Christian thought I hate, it is those fundamentalist Christians so you can call me anti-fundementalist Christian.

It is more of an individual thought to be anti-christian. It is also many ex-christians that commit blasphemy rites. For those that do not know of blasphemy rites, they are some "rites" that many satanists and less commonly pagans do to mock Christianity. They may go take a dump and use pages of the bible to wipe themselves, spit on the faces of christian holy images, etc.

And the Romans had a problem with christianity mostly because they felt that christianity had a problem with their Gods. Bad reason to kill people, but thats not how people felt at the time.

amunakht
August 1st, 2006, 12:36 PM
Where are you getting this bit about Gnosticism perhaps being "the real Christianity"? What are you basing that on?

Whatever books were included or excluded from the final compilation of scripture books included in the Bible has little do to with what Christianity is or isn't. In fact, the Catholic versions of the Bible contain more books than the versions of the Bible used by Protestants.

The books included or excluded had to do with which books were determined to be inspired by God or simply historical books that can be learned from, but not holy writ. (So, although a Protestant would find a Catholic Bible to be a Bible even though it includes what would be, in a Protestant's viewpoint, "extra" books... those "extra" books wouldn't be seen as Scripture by the Protestant. The Protestant would consider them to be valuable and meaningful for their content - but not God's word.)

The "real" Christianity is easy enough to define by Scripture itself - and I'm speaking of Scripture included in the versions of the Bible used by all denominations of the Christian faith. "Real" Christianity is universal and has nothing to do with denomination (although Catholics believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only real church). A Christian is one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, the Son of God, and has a personal relationship with Him.

Gnostic teachings contain a lot of concepts that go *against* what the Bible teaches (both Catholic Bibles and Protestant Bibles). That's why most Christians would disagree with it, and why denominations of the various kinds are against Gnosticism. It's very controversial.

Thats what Chritians WANT to believe. Im not going to argue with a christian, im just going to end up in a fight.

amunakht
August 1st, 2006, 12:44 PM
And the Romans had a problem with christianity mostly because they felt that christianity had a problem with their Gods. Bad reason to kill people, but thats not how people felt at the time.

And sometimes they did. The jews considered other gods to be demons "decieving" people. They added them to their list of demons. I know a certain annoying baptist that says Egyptians just "invented" their gods while the jews and christians just did that. He had no proof that his god existed. He just had lame-ass emotional arguements such as "Just in case there is a hell, you must believe in god", and "I know he exists because the bible says so". Pathetic arguements, he doesn't even reason he just bables on like an ignorant child. Some Christians do have problems with other gods. I don't know if they felt that way back then though but this is as far as I know.

LostSheep
August 1st, 2006, 03:08 PM
I know a certain annoying baptist that says Egyptians just "invented" their gods while the jews and christians just did that. He had no proof that his god existed.
*pause to reflect on irony there ... *

Ptah
August 1st, 2006, 03:24 PM
Are you sure you want this debate?


Where are you getting this bit about Gnosticism perhaps being "the real Christianity"? What are you basing that on?

Gnostic Christian Churchs coexisted with Jewish Christians, Arians and Paul's Apostolic bunch and were in the mainstream of early Christianity. Certain church leaders began to speak out against them starting around 180CE. After the second council of Nicea, around 367CE they were considered heretical, because they refused to accept the Nicean Creed. Consequently their texts were declared heretical as was the practice of Gnostism.


Whatever books were included or excluded from the final compilation of scripture books included in the Bible has little do to with what Christianity is or isn't. In fact, the Catholic versions of the Bible contain more books than the versions of the Bible used by Protestants.

The books included or excluded had to do with which books were determined to be inspired by God or simply historical books that can be learned from, but not holy writ. (So, although a Protestant would find a Catholic Bible to be a Bible even though it includes what would be, in a Protestant's viewpoint, "extra" books... those "extra" books wouldn't be seen as Scripture by the Protestant. The Protestant would consider them to be valuable and meaningful for their content - but not God's word.)

And who determined what texts should be included? ....Man did and he did it in the fourth century CE, over 300 years after Christs death.


The "real" Christianity is easy enough to define by Scripture itself - and I'm speaking of Scripture included in the versions of the Bible used by all denominations of the Christian faith. "Real" Christianity is universal and has nothing to do with denomination (although Catholics believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only real church). A Christian is one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, the Son of God, and has a personal relationship with Him.

Gnostic teachings contain a lot of concepts that go *against* what the Bible teaches (both Catholic Bibles and Protestant Bibles). That's why most Christians would disagree with it, and why denominations of the various kinds are against Gnosticism. It's very controversial.

Really? Have you read them? The gnostic texts were widely disrtibuted and accepted within the early church. Its not that the texts disagree with what early Christians believed, the texts disagreed with what later church leaders under Constantine professed, some three hundred years after the death of Christ, at the 1st Council of Nicea.

I can teach you all about this but you really should do some research in early christian history. Most of what you relayed in your post comes directly from the doctrine of your church. Doctrine has nothing to do with history...

Ptah
August 1st, 2006, 03:26 PM
Thats what Chritians WANT to believe. Im not going to argue with a christian, im just going to end up in a fight.

Perhaps, you could try to educate, rather than argue.

amunakht
August 1st, 2006, 03:52 PM
Really? Have you read them? The gnostic texts were widely disrtibuted and accepted within the early church. Its not that the texts disagree with what early Christians believed, the texts disagreed with what later church leaders under Constantine professed, some three hundred years after the death of Christ, at the 1st Council of Nicea.

I can teach you all about this but you really should do some research in early christian history. Most of what you relayed in your post comes directly from the doctrine of your church. Doctrine has nothing to do with history...

Thank you ptah for adding this truthful reason.

LostSheep
August 1st, 2006, 04:09 PM
It seems to me, I can't help thinking, that there seems to be a tendency among those who rebel most strongly against Christianity to see it all as one great monolithic lump - and so if someone has had a bad experience with one branch of it, then the anger is turned against all all of it - everything from Quakers through to the most blood-and-thunder born-again end of the spectrum. It seems to be rather like the tendency for outsiders to look on all branches of paganism as being like the image they get of Wicca. So those who say they hate Chrsitianity or Christians really need to specify which branch they don't like.


Im not going to argue with a christian, im just going to end up in a fight.
What, all of them?

LordHelmet
August 1st, 2006, 04:16 PM
And sometimes they did. The jews considered other gods to be demons "decieving" people. They added them to their list of demons. I know a certain annoying baptist that says Egyptians just "invented" their gods while the jews and christians just did that. He had no proof that his god existed. He just had lame-ass emotional arguements such as "Just in case there is a hell, you must believe in god", and "I know he exists because the bible says so". Pathetic arguements, he doesn't even reason he just bables on like an ignorant child. Some Christians do have problems with other gods. I don't know if they felt that way back then though but this is as far as I know.

Oh... but isn't this familiar. Yep, pagans did it to... and so did a lot of the prophets. 'Your city made up hercules but we really know Athena lives amongst us in our city! Na Na Na Na Na Na!'

Yep, the stupid ones are as much a constant in history as the smart ones. And whenever there's stupid ones, there's smart ones coming up with stuff for stupid ones to believe and repeat.

David19
August 1st, 2006, 04:44 PM
And sometimes they did. The jews considered other gods to be demons "decieving" people. They added them to their list of demons. I know a certain annoying baptist that says Egyptians just "invented" their gods while the jews and christians just did that. He had no proof that his god existed. He just had lame-ass emotional arguements such as "Just in case there is a hell, you must believe in god", and "I know he exists because the bible says so". Pathetic arguements, he doesn't even reason he just bables on like an ignorant child. Some Christians do have problems with other gods. I don't know if they felt that way back then though but this is as far as I know.

Actually Jew's didn't and don't think of other gods as demons, they saw them as existing, but were prohibited by Yahweh from having any before him as he is a 'jealous god' (like a lot of deities).

When you say the 'Jew's and Christian's just did that' about 'making up' their god, that isn't true in the slightest, Yahweh was not just 'made up', and if we go down that root, then you can say the same about the Kemetic gods, the Greek, Celtic, Norse, Canaanite, etc.

And when you say the baptist had no 'proof' that his god existed, who actually knows for sure?, you can say spiritual experience's, but scientist's have investigated spiritual experiences and have found sometimes it's caused by brain chemistry and chemicals (i think the book 'Why God won't go away?' is one book that goes into this, here's a site with links to other sites and books (http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/philos/biology-mystic.html).

I'm not trying to say you're spiritual experiences are 'false' or anyones for that matter, 'cause i'm sure you and everyone else have had some wonderful experiences, but i'm trying to put things into perspective, why accept some gods and not others?, to me that's not being polytheistic at all, being a polytheist is about believing in gods of other nations and people (including Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah, etc) but worshipping the gods of your religion (in your case, the Kemetic gods).

I would never dream of saying Yahweh 'didn't exist' or Jesus, because people have had great spiritual experiences of them (visions of Jesus, Virgin Mary in Mexico, etc), anyone who says the people 'were lying' or 'delusional' are, IMO, just fundamentalist's themselves (and i've seen a lot of 'pagan' sites that sound like that).

I'm a 'pagan' but i accept that Yahweh, Jesus, Allah (i'm not sure if Yahweh and Allah are the same deities), Mary, etc exist, i just don't worship them, just as i accept the Aztec gods as existing, the Canaanite ones, Kemetic, Greek, Indian, etc.

Jenne
August 1st, 2006, 04:47 PM
Most of the Pagans I've encountered online have usually NOT been so happy about Christianity...but then I think there's a large amount of us who converted because we were burned and found this suited us better. I was recently one of those who was VERY bitter against Christians, not necessarily the doctrine itself.

Now, I happen to know a lot of Christians who seek out Pagans, and this has ameliorated my feelings. Exposure to a diferent kind of Christian has helped shaped my view that, in the end, we are all the same.

Ptah
August 1st, 2006, 04:48 PM
Oh... but isn't this familiar. Yep, pagans did it to... and so did a lot of the prophets. 'Your city made up hercules but we really know Athena lives amongst us in our city! Na Na Na Na Na Na!'

Mostly the archetypes remained the same, the names were changed to confuse the ignorant.

There is evidence to support that Hercules was of Egyptian origin, as was Athena.

But thats a different thread....

pawnman
August 1st, 2006, 04:48 PM
Absolutely pagans are anti-christian. I've seen it repeatedly on these boards, and in real life. Most (not all, MOST) people who regard themselves as pagans can't call christians evil often enough or in strong enough words.

Ptah
August 1st, 2006, 04:56 PM
Actually Jew's didn't and don't think of other gods as demons,

Yes they did,

ref. Testament of Solomon http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/test_solomon.pdf

and the Egyptian Decan diety. http://members.tripod.com/~ib205/decans.html

Lunacie
August 1st, 2006, 05:17 PM
Absolutely pagans are anti-christian. I've seen it repeatedly on these boards, and in real life. Most (not all, MOST) people who regard themselves as pagans can't call christians evil often enough or in strong enough words.

That's a pretty big blanket there. A lot bigger than I'm seeing from where I'm sitting.

OrionNeb87
August 1st, 2006, 05:25 PM
That's a pretty big blanket there. A lot bigger than I'm seeing from where I'm sitting.

Agreed

My .2 ...

There is no doubt that there are Anti-Christian Pagans out there. But there is also no doubt that there are Pagans that aren't Anti-Christian.

Enough with these generalizations, they're driving me crazy! :awilly:

Jenne
August 1st, 2006, 05:27 PM
Agreed

My .2 ...

There is no doubt that there are Anti-Christian Pagans out there. But there is also no doubt that there are Pagans that aren't Anti-Christian.

Enough with these generalizations, they're driving me crazy! :awilly:

:lol: Welcome to MW! ;)