What do you consider "advanced" magic?

[Willow Polson]

Hey there... getting started on my next book which covers advanced magic techniques (there is NO 101 in this book!!). While I have the chapters outlined already, I'd like to ask a question here. What do you consider truly "advanced" magic? What is the furthest edge of magic you've ever found?

Quantum physics?
Veil Work?
The Astral?
Shamanism?
Trance and Possession?
Something else...?

I look forward to peoples' responses...!

[mato]

I find that there is no 'advanced' magick any more than there is 'advanced' flying. The methods change but the result is the same, the sparrow the eagle and the 747 all have different methods of flight but they all fly and their ability is enough to serve them. That said I find that the spiritual sides of magick should be explored in depth in some book if not yours. I would love to read a well written book on that. Perhaps a chapter on that would be of interest for your readers.

[Myst]

Advanced magic, IMHO, is that which requires more concentration, ceremony, studying, etc.

such as high magic, ceremonial magic
shapeshifting
astral travel
evocations and invocations
reiving and wards

and what you've listed.

Your next book sounds fascinating already, I can't wait to see what you have in mind :)

[Lavender]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly. If you're writting a book on high magic, shouldn't you already know what it is? Why would what we think would matter? Shouldn't the book be in your point of view? Because if you're using our points of view, then why would we want to read your book?

Or is this a plug for your new book?

[amberlaine]

I agree that there's no such thing as advanced magic.

I wouldn't have agreed a year ago--but now I do. There are different kinds of magic, different ways to approach subject matter, and different ways to achieve results--but it's not like one form of magic can rebuilt the world Trade Center and another form can't because its too "weak".

Ceremonial magic is "complex"--I wouldn't call it advanced. I mean, the results that are achieved with CM could very well be achieved using less complex actions. It's all about what works for the practitioner.

I would asser that perhaps Willow wants to cover advanced occult topics---but that's a whole different question from asking about advanced magic. Advanced topics in the occult (for your average Eurocentric Neo-Pagan) would probably include topics such as : demon summoning, possession, trance, astral projection, other planes of existence, scrying, etc.

[Myst]

I think "advanced" is being confused with "better" here.

I think what is meant here is magic that isn't simple and easy to do without many materials or ritual - like candle magic.

One doesn't have to assume that "advanced" magic means "more effective" or "better", just magic that takes more research and work.

And I think there's also some confusion with "advanced magic" and "high magic"; I don't think they're meant to be synonymous here. Nor do I think the question being asked is "what is high magic" but "what advanced magical techniques, practices, and systems would you like to see explored in a book". :)

[amberlaine]

Yeah, I understand what she's asking.

My point is that some people see, for example, ceremonial magic as "advanced magic" and folk magic as "simpler magic".

This is what I used to think, and then someone (I dont remember who) pointed out to me that this isn't necessarily true. Why is the need for props, correspondences, foreign languages, and ritual considered "advanced"? Doesn't it actually make more sense for magic to be considered "advanced" when you need *fewer* props?

I had to think about that, and yeah, it did make sense.

Magic is magic. It's a language. Is English an "advanced language" More advanced than, say, Chinese? or Hebrew? or SUmerian? Well, no, they all have different uses and different strengths--but there's no real way to hierarchically arrange these languages. Its the same with magic. THere are different "languages" of magic, but essentially the have the same limitations.

My real point is that some things can't be arranged in a hierarchy of beginner to advanced, and I think magic is one of them.

[Willow Polson]

Okie dokie... let me clarify what I'm getting at. What I mean by advanced magic is stuff a beginner, or even someone who's been a Witch/Pagan/etc. for several years can't really handle/understand/deal with easily or at all.

How many newbies would be able to handle a full-on deity possession? How many 101 students would really be able to perceive the structure of the Veil or "get" how quantum physics relates to casting spells? It takes many years of practice to be a really skilled shaman or work with the kinds of chaotic energies you get in very large ritual crowds and so on.

I'm keeping this way outside of any magic "system" like Wicca or Ceremonial or whatever... this is trippy stuff I've discovered or been exposed to in my 20+ years of being a Witch. I'm not talking about "high" or "low" magic or whatever... Among other things, I'm talking about different forms of magic taken to their extremes and limits (and the limits of the practitioner). Call it "occult" instead of "magic" if you want to, they are the same to me.

The bird and the 747 pilot can fly, yes, but it takes a lot of training first.

Hope that clarifies some stuff.

[Wandererz]

Well if you've ever study'd quantum physic's I'd say it's pretty advanced. If you don't understand basic physic's it's going to take you an hour per paragraph just to slightly understand what there talking about. But it's a great way to study for a test. Just pull out a book on chaos theory read a few pages and then cram for your test.

Also when you get into dimension's and all of the astral universes it is really impossible to just explain them to someone. You really have to learn for yourself. But the most advanced magic I could think of would have to be wisdom. people can read all they want and gain knowledge but you actualy have to do things on your own to truly understand them.

I'm not expert in anything these are just my thoughts on the subject.

[champagne]

What is exactly that you want to know, Willow?

"Advanced Magick" may have many different interpretations by many different people, you know.

[Willow Polson]

"Advanced Magick" may have many different interpretations by many different people, you know. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, that's why I was asking "what do you consider "advanced" magic"... What is your opinion?

[champagne]

If the "Advanced Magick" was very well known to me, and easily performed, than I wouldn't consider it "advanced".

What might be considered "advanced" to some, may not be to the others.

For me there is no "advanced magick". The only "thing" that can be advanced is your heart.

[ambiaka]

This an interesting topic, I've been into witchcraft 13 yrs. and it comes down to each person's perception, where they are, how open they are to the experience. Some folks can ride the energy of a big group ritual and steer. Others become overwhelmed, some folks really need their tools to feel connected, others need nothing and can do "advanced" magic tearing down the highway doing 70 mph. I don't know much about physics, but I do know magic and have a decent perception of people, people do magic, some better than others, it's their belief in their "self" that determines if they ever get "advanced" it comes down to believing it is possible and their Goddess given right to do so. 'Biaka

[The Mad Vitiki]

Originally posted by Willow Polson
"Advanced Magick" may have many different interpretations by many different people, you know.

Yes, that's why I was asking "what do you consider "advanced" magic"... What is your opinion? [/B][/QUOTE]

yes i would like to know what you mean by advanced ?
if advanced = power then all I can say is i belive in KISS.
(keep it sympel stuped ) it has been my experance the more sempel the magic the mor powerfull
but if advanced = knowelge then all i have to day is knowge is power

this in/sta/two/tion is not re/spon/sabel for the thaughts and opinuns of the mad one HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA

[Armitage]

Advanced to me means in-depth, not necessarily just difficult. It's like the difference between dabblers and serious students of anything. I'm interested in metalsmithing for example, but anyone taking Advanced Metalsmithing would be someone who wanted to be serious aobut the craft. (weird example, but I can't think iof a magickal one right now)

[Twig]

Hmmmm.


What do you consider truly "advanced" magic?

-Magic you've never tried before.

-Ceremonial & Ritual that calls on outside help from any Spirit/energy/entity not of this plane. [yes,even dead uncle Harry]

-Magick intended for personal gain or favor.

-Magick with the intent to change Time, the Past or the Future.

That'll do for a start. :D

Peace,
Twig

[Wandererz]

mad vitiki

knowlege is not power, but the prelude to power. Knowlege tells us what is most important and most importantly how to attain it.

just had to quote tremere clanbook there )