Question about Druidic elements

[blackroseivy]

Hi, I'm back! :p This time, I need to know about Druidic Elements. I know that the primary elements in Druidry are Earth, Sea, & Sky; there is Earth, Water & Air - but HOW the heck to classify Fire?! I know it's not an "element" properly speaking to Druids; what the heck is it, exactly? Just wondering!

[Sage Rainsong]

I think Deborah Lipp talks about it a little bit in The Way of Four book. Form what I understand based on her writings, is that the drudic elemental system is not exactly like the four element system. The world is composed of 3 realms. The land, sea and sky. They are similar to the element system but not the same. The sky contains clouds that are made of water and dust that is made from earth for example. Also this relates to the animal kingdom because there are 3 kinds of animals: birds, fish and land creatures. Fire is sort of myserious because it doesn't really have a permenant home. It vanishes when it is done consuming. So it is sort of considered holy and otherworldly and thus like the Gods. Fire is kind of like the spirit element.

[skilly-nilly]

Hi, I'm back! :p This time, I need to know about Druidic Elements. I know that the primary elements in Druidry are Earth, Sea, & Sky; there is Earth, Water & Air - but HOW the heck to classify Fire?! I know it's not an "element" properly speaking to Druids; what the heck is it, exactly? Just wondering!

The same informative site/essay:

http://www.witchscauldron.net/cauldron/duile.htm

informs on this:
"The Center of the World
To a Celt, the answer to the question, "Where is the Center of the World?," had three answers. As an individual, his/her answer would have been, "It is where I stand.". This referred to the "gorm a cli" or the center of the self, the "bosom or heart". As a member of a household it would have been, "It is the cleithe, the center pole of my home". As a member of a tuath or clan it would have been the Bíle or sacred tree of the Gods. Each of these centers was connected together through the Goddess Brighid. She was the Goddess of Fire: fire in the head and heart, fire in the home and hearth, the fires of smiths and poets. She controlled the serpents of the "need-fire" and the feis. Brighid was the "daughter of fire" of The Dagda. She was the Magical element that connected the Three Worlds. If the elemental aspects of each of these Three Worlds was Land, Sea and Sky (Earth, Water and Air), then She was the Fire that transformed all three. It was Fire that opened the ways into the Otherworld at the Feis. It was Fire that gave inspiration to poets. It was Fire that warmed the anam as well as the Cauldrons of Wisdom, Warmth and Knowledge. To a Celt, the Center of the World was the interconnection of self, family and cosmos. It was fire that illuminated them all. Fire was at the center of Celtic and Druidic ritual."


I think it's easiest to just not try to fit the 3-fold World into a Latinate 4 Elements viewpoint.

For example, I live in a bilungual country (all posted signs are in French and English) and I read French fairly well. It's not a question of merely turning the words from one language into another, or even expressing the same concepts in a different word-set. Many things, not 'stop' or 'west' but slogans and advertizing are conceptually different.

The 3-fold World is a concept that doesn't fold into a 4 elements mind-set like a cat with 3 legs. It is complete in itself. Fire isn't a left-out element; it's the transformation.

[demonique]

One thing I read that was helpful was an explanation in the book The Druidry Handbook. It spoke of various sets of elements - the 3 "Druid" elements, the 4 typical elements, and the various sets of 5 elements (often including Spirit, but the also the Chinese element system that includes metal, wood, fire, air, and earth). The book spoke of recognizing that there are different uses for each system, and that there's importance in not getting locked into a single mentality, and use the system that corresponds best to the problem at hand! Better explained in the book, of course.

But basically, when using a set of three elements, fire, in my mind, isn't really classified as anything - it's not really a part of that system at all. If I need fire for some certain thing, I would use the set of four, or even a set of five.

The point of the systems, I believe, is not to classify every single thing into it, but just to use it as it suits. I like the explanation above, as well, saying that fire is the transformation. Interesting viewpoint!

[Nitefalle]

The main difference (to me) is that the Three Realms don't really directly correspond to three physical elements - Land, the Earth, is also representative of the Underworld. Many of the Fae and some Gods dwell here. The Sea, where spirits cross over to reside with Manannan, is representative of the Otherworlds, where many Fae and passed-ancestors reside. The Sky is representative of an Upper World, where most of the gods dwell. Fire was seen as "fire in the head", it was divine spark, creativity. I suppose that they didn't see it as something that "naturally occurred" and hence didn't classify it with the other three, but that's just a personal opinion.

Along with the Three Realms, many of the Celts viewed the world as having nine elements, each of which corresponded to a part of the body, so they had an extremely different viewpoint than the 4-element/direction cultures and can't really be compared or expected to mesh together.

[KellyP]

I agree wholeheartedly with your interpretations and correspondences, Nitefalle. In the ritual working of the Ar nDraiocht Fein, Fire is considered one of the 3 centers -- along with the well and the tree. When recognizing the fire in my grove or on my altar I generally acknowledge it with words like "The fire of the forge, the flame of passion, the fuel of inspiration ... ".

On a more personal note, I like to view things as more integrated than to consider "elements" or "directions". The use of land, sea, sky seems much more integrated.

[domiobrien]

The Three Realms are not Elements (though some groups such as Daughters of the Triple Goddess and Celtic Wiccan Order refer to them as "major elements". There are nine elements in the human body and nine in the univese. There are different versions, but a common correspondence is:
bone/stone
flesh/earth
skin/glasrai (green growing things)
outward appearance or face/sun
senses/stars
blood or body fluids/waters
mind/clouds
soul/moon
breath of life/winds
DTG and CWO refer to these as the "monor elements"
These are referred to in Druidism as duile.
Domi

[domiobrien]

"Minor elements"
sorry-- I'm running a fever and my head and hands are not in synch
Domi

[MajorTal]

Also, to the Druids "fire" was thought to reside IN Wood, since how else could it appear after rubbing two sticks together?And when you took a branch from your Grove, you took the spirit of Fire from your old Grove with you where ever you went and it relit the new Fire Spirits in your new Grove too.