having children out of wedlock

[Angelwulfe]

recently shadowulfe and i have been telling our families that we're pregnant. several of our relatives said something like "so you two are going to have to get married then" well no. we do plan to get married eventually. we want to get married because we love each other not because we're having a child. we're still going to be together or both be an active part in the childs life so i see no rush to get married.

[Arduinna]

I agree, being pregnant is not a reason to get married. Being in love, or wanting to spend your life together is, IMO.

I think the issue of children/marriage is a direct result of the idea that it's a sin to have sex before marriage. Getting pregnant unmarried is just proof that you had sex. If they think you should be married to have a baby, do they also think gays shouldn't be parents because they can't get married?

I myself don't believe in sin. I think children should have parents who love them and want them. That to me is more important and being married. Love is the most important thing that kids need.

[Angelwulfe]

i totally agree.

[Myst]

And when you're expecting a baby why would you *want* to have to save up money and have an expensive (even if it is small) wedding instead of saving up to get baby stuff?

I don't understand why anyone would marry because the woman gets pregnant anymore. It's just not needed; a woman can take care of herself these days, she doesn't *need* a man to be strapped down to take care of her.

Maybe these people are old fashioned, or maybe they just assume that's what you want to do because that's what a lot of people do *shrugs*

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have to agree with what has been said so far. I think getting married because you are pregnant ranks right up there with staying together for the kid. Which is not a good idea at all it makes everyone misserable. Children need thier parent or parents happy for the most part. I am not talking tv show happiness but in a state where at least most of the time they do not hate thier lives. When you live with someone you can't stand you start taking it out on everyone around you it's pressure don't cave in. Marry when you know that this is what you want in your live and that will be best for you and thus better for the baby. Don't change your plan because the little one is coming if you are right for each other you have your whole lives together and it doesn't matter if you are married or long term partners it matters that you enjoy being with each other. Be happy.

[seawitch]

all that really matters. is that you both have a lasting, mutual, love, and respect for each other. and commitment to loving your child. so even if the relationship should end the child would be miniamally(sp?) affected. through your true affection for each other.
marriage or not is no biggy to me

[Lavender]

Basically, a ditto from me too. Can't wait til we see pics of the little one! :D Being good parents doesn't mean you have to be married. It sounds like you two have given the situation a lot of thought.

[Sequoia]

hai, I agree with what's been said so far.

I think that having a child out of wedlock is just fine, so long as you can give that child the best life s/he could have. You have a home, a good job, a way to see to their needs, and lots and lots of love! One parent, two parents, male, female, it doesn't really matter, so long as baby's getting all s/he needs.

-_-; bleh, sin. Gimmie a break. If sex out of wedlock is a sin, why does it feel just as good as sex inside wedlock? Or why don't you turn into some sort of demon, or something?

^^: then again, I"m not really into the whole "sin" thing. . . I just don't buy it! LOL

[Danustouch]

I agree with almost everything said here. I have a friend right now, who is a new "single" mother. And she's asked me several times if I thought she should move in with the babies father. And I keep telling her.."No. No. NO!". She's not in love with the guy. She has issues with his lifestyle. Etc. The only reason she'd be doing it, is for financial reasons. If she loved the guy, or if she really WANTED to be with him, that would be another story. But...as long as he's an active part of the child life, and contributing financially, I see no reason why she would move in with him just for the "Security" it would provide. To me, it's a false sense of security, since there is no emotional committment to eachother.

Marry when YOU want to make the step to do so. When the financial, and emotional situation are right....and when you feel it's something you really want to do. NOT because of what others say, or because you think it would be the most "normal" thing for the child. Normal isn't always "BEST". :)

[Myst]

Originally posted by Wildchild
Basically, a ditto from me too. Can't wait til we see pics of the little one! :D Being good parents doesn't mean you have to be married. It sounds like you two have given the situation a lot of thought.

Psst there already is one up in Fertility

[Angelwulfe]

i love how open minded people are on this forum... times have deffinately changed since when my parents we're my age. my parents lived together for a year before they got married, they told me that raised quite a few eye brows and that was way before any kids came into the picture. yeah our relatives are kinda old fashioned. luckily my parents (who we both live with at the moment) don't care if we get married or not so i guess it dosn't matter that much what the rest of the family thinks.

[WynnJera]

I also agree about what has been said pretty much up to this point ~ I also think it all depends on your view on wedlock ~ some people in a common law relationship in a sense are married and some are happy with that ~ handfasting is not a like the general standard of marriage so why would wedlock be ~ as long as there is love in the hearts and home ~ I say more power to ya ~ BB ~ WynnJera ~

[Djiril]

I say it's fine as long as you can make it work. I wish you the best of luck!:sunny:

[Hope]

One more vote here....pregnancy=marriage not in my book ;)

love and congrat's

hope

[Rubi Waters]

I agree with everyone else. Having a baby shouldn't mean you have to get married right then and there. As you two have already decided you do what is best for you and the baby. If you had planned to get married at a certain time then by all means wait till then not sooner.
Many hugs and happy thoughts to the two of you (and baby)

[mato]

The science of child rearing has changed sence the days of the cave man... I dont think that two people are needed let alone marrige! My nephew (the cute little manipulative shit that he is) was raised by the whole family and I was the primary care giver for his first 2 years... consider that a 12 year old kid basically raising a baby not his own on hostile grounds... The kid is now 6 and well adjusted.

[msilvercat]

Should I even throw in the idea of lesbians or gay men having and raising children? For obvious reason, this would preclude marriage, and yet such families can be happy and healthy? Or what about a woman who wants a child of her own, but does not have a "steady" guy at all? If she is financially and emotionaly ready to take on the responsibility, should we have the right to tell her no?

If this is off-topic, just say so.

[Nina]

...then I don't give a fig whether the child is being raised by a single parent, a married souple, an unmarried couple, a gay couple, a gay single parent or an entire extended family. It's love, time, care and attention that a child needs, not a piece of paper.

[msilvercat]

My sentiments exactly!!!

You know, for all the intolerence with which pagans are often (or usually, depending upon where one live) treated, we are an awfully tolerant bunch ourselves, which is one of the BEST qualities of the pagan community as a whole.

[Nina]

...generally tolerant, anyway! I think quite a few of us here like the odd heated debate...but I'd stake my reputation on one thing - if any of us needed help, there's a whole community here who would be supportive. Hey, aren't we nice people!!!! :)

[seawitch]

and wasn't the first children in the world born out of wedlock?
i am sure the idea of marriage and commitment, came many years after the world was quite populated.
and it took primitive man a long time to figure out what caused that:D (pregnancy) and still the children were love and cared for just the same by the whole tribe.

[Myst]

Originally posted by msilvercat
You know, for all the intolerence with which pagans are often (or usually, depending upon where one live) treated, we are an awfully tolerant bunch ourselves, which is one of the BEST qualities of the pagan community as a whole.

An opinion I wouldn't necessarily agree with. I don't want to go off topic tho :)

[Emaleth]

Yeah, I also believe that being pregnant is no reason to get married. Unfortunately most people think differently. And they not only think or say things that are supposed to make a woman guilty, what's worse some of them actually act to punish her. Six months ago my friend found out she was pregnant, she decided not to get married, althouth she and her boyfriend are still together, and he hasn't left her or anything. Most people supported her decision, even her parents didn't make any problem out of it (she was 20 then). But it turned out that when the baby was born, the priest in her church (catholic) refused to baptize the boy, as he was an illegitimate child. Can you believe it? How can someone punish a child for its mother alleged sin? I don't understand it It feels like I was living in the Middle Ages. I guess we should be happy she wasn't burnt or stoned :>>

Blessed be,

[Dancin Girl]

I just wanted to add my personal thoughts and experience with this discussion... Had both of my children "out of Wedlock" and raised them on my own for the most part. They're almost grown now and appear to be normal, healthy, fairly well adjusted adults!! We never had much money, but we had that most important key ingrediant- Love!!! I never paid much attention to what other people were thinking or saying, was always honest with my kids when they asked the usual questions.... I have to agree that it makes no difference who raises and nurtures them as long as they know unconditional and unlimited love within their family unit!!

[MammaStar]

You know how I feel about the situation, my little Wulfe sister....;)

Don't you or Shadowulfe let ANYONE tell you that you are a "bad" person for your decisions. What you & he do with your lives are you're own.

I had my son 'out of wedlock' & it was the best thing I could ever have done. By the time I got pregnant, his Dad & I couldn't STAND each other. It was an accident, it happend and that accident turned into the most precious, wonderful, beautiful person in my life. He's now nearly 9 & his Dad I finally get along, which is even better for him.

My parents got married because of me...well, they claim they were gonna get married anyway.....but they got married when my mom was 3 months pregnant w/me (32 years ago). they also got divorced when I was 12 and that was about 5 years too long for them.

I still get questions <bad italian accent> whenna u gonna getta married? <end bad accent> by my old bitty aunties, but hey, their 85 & 80, it's their joy to see everyone paired up.

As Long & YOU & Shadowulfe, do the best you can for your child. Love him/her, cherish her/him, provide the best environment you can....that's all that matters.

You both know I loves ya....so if anyone keeps giving you a hard time in the family...let me know...Big Sis Starlite will come & punch 'em out for ya!!! :heartthro

[Epona44]

Just marrying someone because you are a having a child is like buying the first car you see because you need a ride.

If you think about it, there are lots of ways to get places, good ways and bad.

Marriage is a serious matter and finding a suitable person to marry is a serious matter.

Raising a child is a full-time occupation. If you have someone to share the work that relieves a lot of pressure.

It's an old adage, but: "Marry in haste, repent at leasure."

[Silver Venus]

I know exactly what you mean Angel, as its been happening to myself and my bf ever since we told everyone we are pregnant ;)
They didnt say anything horrible but I can tell they think its wierd we are not rushing down the aisle and getting married.
Its like as soon as you tell a friend or family member, they are so happy and great, then in the same 5 mins or so, say oh so whens the wedding?!
This really upset me and wound me up for a few weeks, I even thought ~ Umm yes why arent we! after a while of hearing it so often, but now Im over it and believe what I believed in when i first told my bf we were pregnant, that we dont need marriage to prove our love and commitment for eachother, so Im much more clear minded about the whole matter and I hope you are too. Dont let them affect you and affect your opinions.
You both know how much you love eachother, how commited you are to eachother and how much you will love and cherish this baby so thats all that matters isnt it :sunny:

[LadyWinter]

Mom got pregnant with me at 16. She didnt marry my father because she said while he was a good boyfriend he would have been a lousy dad. I was married when I was 8 months pregnant with my second child. I didnt marry the father of my first child and I only married the father of my second child as we were in love. I say be a good parent and worry about the rest later.

Slan Astar
LadyWinter

[shnen]

marriage is for love... sometimes sex isn't, or it's not the type of love that is marriage love...
throwing a child into a loveless or not the right type of love in the marriage is probably (not always) going to result in bad things.

a bad relationship between the parents effects the child, and can cause more harm then if they would have just went their own ways.

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Children need to be raised by a loving family. Babies can't read a marriage certificate and probably don't care if their parents are married or not!

[ChocL8GiRL]

Well, I have 2 children, and I have never been married, lol, and my kids seem to be just fine, so I don't think it is necessary, although I would like to be one day, just seems like no one is ever going to ask.

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by ChocL8GiRL
......although I would like to be one day, just seems like no one is ever going to ask.


Don't I know that feeling.... :rolleyes:

[bluecat]

Just because a woman is pregnant doesn't mean she has to marry the guy who she shared the experience with. That idea is such a load of garbage.

Sorry, this is just one of my PET PEEVES.

I have seen way too many people get married just because of some "obligation" to do "the right thing." And many of these marriages were total DISASTERS and wound up in more than one kind of court.

A friggin' piece of paper doesn't make you a good parent or even a better person.

OKAY ... Steam valve is stabilized again.:cool:

Blue :cool:

[callalily]

I chose the "Doesn't matter as long as both parents raist it" because waaay back in 1960 the a**hole that got my mom pregnant dumped her like last week's fashions when she told him. (Yes; I know it takes two. But he was a sniveling coward not to stick around.) Mom kept me and my dad-in-reality adopted me when he and my mom married. I was just about 3. He's a great guy -- obviously. And mom had a lot of guts to keep me in the climate of the early 60s.

That being said, unplanned pregnancies today make me angry. Protection is available for free if needed. Thank you, Planned Parenthood! If a woman is nervous about her BF taking precautions, then she must take the initiative. We must take charge of our bodies!

Sorry; didn't mean to go all soapbox-y.

[Xander67]

I agree with Bluecat and Cal,

marrige is not always necissarily in the best intrest of the children,

children are very impressionable, they need to grow up in a loveing environment!

If the mother and the father are fighting all the time, (which is wat happens usually when people get married for the wrong reasons) it will afect the kids

[Grey]

Now while I beilive that it is best to wait tell after marriage before having children- who cares what I think? Besides which its so "easy" to get a divorce these days the term wedLOCK is no longer applicable. I was an acident myself and my father left within a year so ive no room to speak. Aslong as you can trust you partner to stay (as you obviously do :heartthro) I see no problem with having as big a family as you like.

[Burning Goddess]

having had a child out of wedlock I TOTALLY agree with the idea that a single mom/dad can care for the child better that an unhappy couple. It's better to have single love than double misery IMHO.

[Sequoia]

this is about having children out of wedlock. . . . what about children born to someone who is currently in wedlock with someone ELSE?

In other words, a "love child" (ne? isn't that the term?)

What do you do there? What do you think about that?

A step further on the theoretical road - what if the couple had agreed that it was alright to see others, especially say if one is out of town an aweful lot on business or something? Do you think it's possible for this child simply to have three parents instead of two? Should the child be an object of shame, if the relationship was not?

what would you think of three parents, two married and one not - or maybe all three not married? Or is this a subject for another thread?

yes, I'm in "shit-stirring-up" mode ;) :D

[bluecat]

What a fine kettle of fish you have stirred up, dear Puma!

I have seen quite a bit of this and, unfortuantely, it really depends on a case by case basis.

It also depends on whether or not the "affair" was a secret or not. But, unfortunately it is usually the child who loses.

Me personally? I have no problem with it because if a problem does arise it is almost always the mother of the "love child" or the child who ends up losing in some sort of way.

This particular issue is like a Hydra crossed with a cockroach. It's almost invincible, has three heads, and if you cut one off it just grows back. There are so many variables to Puma's input that it's a real gem. This would go beyond a new Topic or thread, we are talking FORUM time. But maybe it would be good in a family forum. After all it is something that should be discussed and not just hushed away.

A real can-o'-worms. ;)

Blue :cool:

[bluecat]

Originally posted by bluecat


Me personally? I have no problem with it because if a problem does arise it is almost always the mother of the "love child" or the child who ends up losing in some sort of way.


A real can-o'-worms. ;)

Blue :cool:

Hmmm ... a little hoof-in-mouth there! :( I didn't mean that I believe it's the mother's fault. And that is not why I don't have a problem with it. Just a bad choice of words on my part :(:(

I meant to say, "...but, if a problem does arise it is almost always the mother of the "love child" or the child who ends up losing in some sort of way."

Darn ... sorry folks :(

Blue :cool:

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Angelwulfe
recently shadowulfe and i have been telling our families that we're pregnant. several of our relatives said something like "so you two are going to have to get married then" well no. we do plan to get married eventually. we want to get married because we love each other not because we're having a child. we're still going to be together or both be an active part in the childs life so i see no rush to get married.

Well, me and Traz got the same thing from his parents when we told them that we were going to have a baby. They actually tried convincing him that the child would not be legally his unless we were married when we had the baby, that perhaps he wasn't the father, and that I would run off with the baby once I had it. What they didn't realize was that while Traz was ready to get married as soon as he found out that I was pregnant, I said "no, I'm not ready for that yet." And for people to sink to those kinds of tactics is just sick... Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether or not you are married when you have children, as long as you take care of those children, and love them. Nowadays 2 out of every 3 marriages end in divorce, and I don't want to be forced into a situation where that maybe the outcome.

Don't let anyone try to force you into doing something that you don't want to do... It's not beneficial to anyone involved... And those people who are trying to force you into this itimate relationship that is legally binding, do not have to live with that decision...

Kaylara

[Twilight Garden]

I am completely against getting married "for the sake of the child". That is the biggest mistake that a couple can make. It is far better to have and love the child and wait to get married (or not marry at all) than to get married and put a child through the trauma of seeing a marriage fall apart that was never meant to be in the first place. To me, a child that is born was always meant to be, whether it was consciously planned or not.

My husband and his ex had an unplanned child and made the mistake of getting married. Nine years later, the child is still feeling the pains of their mistake. (by "mistake" I am referring to the marriage, not the child) Had they never married in the first place, they child would have had less trauma to deal with. So many parents now-a-days are single parents, whether it be from divorce or out of wedlock, that the child would not have had the same ridicule that occured 30 years ago.

Parents trying to force a marriage "for the sake of the unplanned (or planned) child", are living in a dream world - in my opinion. There is the CHANCE that it could work out, but it's more likely to work out if they wait until they are ready.

[Grey]

that happened to my step dad- 5 times!!! she declared them anothers as did a DNA test yet he still is charged with child support for after there divorce!! the real "father " says he wants to take full responsibility but Ca wont let him!!!

this Legal BS or what!?

[Bryony]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
hai, I agree with what's been said so far.

I think that having a child out of wedlock is just fine, so long as you can give that child the best life s/he could have. You have a home, a good job, a way to see to their needs, and lots and lots of love! One parent, two parents, male, female, it doesn't really matter, so long as baby's getting all s/he needs.

-_-; bleh, sin. Gimmie a break. If sex out of wedlock is a sin, why does it feel just as good as sex inside wedlock? Or why don't you turn into some sort of demon, or something?

^^: then again, I"m not really into the whole "sin" thing. . . I just don't buy it! LOL

ditto. I know a couple (both female) that both had artificial insemination to become pregnant. I think that it is great! Sexuality doesn't matter, neither does marital status.
All that matters is that the child will be loved and cared for by the person/s responsible for s/he when they arrive.

[Sequoia]

*nods* what is wrong with "mama" and "mother" as being the parents? Or "Daddy" and "Father"? two moms, two dads, one mom, one dad, mom and dad. . . I don't see what's so wrong with this. For example, my older brother, for the first five years of his son's life, he was the sole parent. His mom would babysit him sometimes, but mostly she wasn't the parent (to the point that as a small toddler, he really didn't like women, and actually seemed to resent them, especially his mother). I will tell you, he is a sweet, sensitive, and extremely intelligent little boy. Nothing wrong with single Dads, either. He changed diapers, potty-trained, taught him things like reading and letters. . . nothing wrong with a single dad at all. And I'm sure two dads would be just as good, if not better :) So I personally really don't see the problem with it.

[Gwion]

I believe that it is a great dishonor to have an illegitimate child. There is no dishonor in BEING that child. The onus is on the parents. This is not a value that was hammered into me by my parents, nor does it derive from my religious beliefs. I see it as a matter of personal integrity. I also see that there is a current trend to try to “normalize” having illegitmate children as acceptable social behavior, but I believe this will pass and the ages-old historical view will prevail once again. Look at the “B” word that no one is mentioning here; a word for an illegitimate child that has become a first class insult. It’s not even spoken in polite company.In Elizabethan times, the only worse one as far as calling into doubt the person’s parentage, was a compound word meaning “child of a prostitute.” That is how deep the stigma goes. The sad part is that the children born out of wedlock, as they always have, will still have to bear the social stigma of their parent’s actions. If you want to have a child with someone, you marry them. The marriage is not only a commitment to love one another, but to be committed to the responsibility of raising your children together. If you’re not committed enough to someone to marry them, why are you having a child with that person, which requires an even greater commitment? What if the child feels differently about being born out of wedlock than their parents? What if the child is ashamed? I can just imagine such children one day explaining to their own children that “Grandma and Grandpa had…different ideas about honor and morality.” There are many scenarios that result in an illegitimate child. The woman who lies to her lover about using birth control, then says “I’m pregnant, now you have to marry me.” No way.. Any man who walks away from that is not to blame, the woman is. Then you have men who sire a string of illegitimate children, never marry any of the women, nor support them emotionally or financially. I refer to them as “Serial fathers.” The term “baby-daddy,” to me, is just ugly and common in the worst way. What about the married man who fathers a child through an adulterous relationship? (I also hear people trying to pass off adultery as acceptable behavior. You see them every day on Jerry Springer.) How much honor is in that? It’s not just other people who judge these illegitimate parents socially, it will also be their own children.

[Old Witch]

The "B" word is bastard by the way.........no one here would ever think to label any child that in this day and age......... I believe that word has lost the meaning it had in the past....and is now just a curse word..........Nope, nope ....don't agree with a word you said................And those people on Jerry Springer are off ther rockers anyway............

[Sequoia]

I belive that it can be honourable to be unmarried and have a child.

Other than a "normal" cercomstance of choosing that situation. . . what about the situations where there is no choice?

For example, in many places it is illegal for a man and another man to marry, or a woman and another woman to wed. Some places have extreme age restrictions (not that I always agree with the people's choices, but. . . I am not them). Sometimes there are penalties to being married, that there might not nessicarily be as simply a couple. And perhaps for some people, the idea of marriage has completely lost it's significance in this society, and they prefer to keep their own belief and idea of partnership.

Maybe some people wish to raise a child on their own, without marriage, mothers and fathers alike. I know for a fact that if my brother had married his son's mother, it would have been horrible. I don't know why they had him - whether there was birth control (that presumably failed) involved or not. But right now he is engaged to a wonderful woman, who just so happens to not be my nephew's mother. In my opinion, she is a much better woman, and will be a much better 'mother' to him. A marriage between the mother and my brother would have been utterly disasterous, and I hate to think of the effects on the child.

Is your definition of an illegitimate child one born, under any cercomstance, outside of wedlock? Concieved outside of wedlock? Let me tell you something.

That older brother of mine that I speak of. . . my mother became pregnant with him when she was seventeen. By your speech there, they did the "right" thing, and married.

My mother spent nearly twenty years being abused by that horrible man, who also undoubtably was horrible to his son.

My own parents divorced when I was barely more than a toddler, and while I'm sure it comforts you that I am a 'legitimate' child (in other words, I have the right to be here, wheras some other child does not?), it didn't comfort me to remember the nights of screaming and yelling of a marriage that did not work out. My mother nearly miscarried my little brother while this was going on. I'm sure you see how beneficial marriage was to these children.

Quite frankly, myself, I'd prefer to be married when I become a mother. I fully intend to do both someday. But I really think it is beyond your juristiction to point the finger at any parent who's child is out of wedlock. This is modern society. And sad as it may be, the values are quite different than they used to be. I love my brother, I love my nephew, and while I might not like his mother, it isn't because they weren't married when he was born.

Any child, loved by his or her parent is just as precious to me. Any child. It could be hitler's baby, and I'm sure we'd all innocently ooh and aww over it, if we didn't know it's father's identity.

*shakes her head* you are intitled to your view, and I hope you keep your values true to yourself, but this is a sad, strange modern world, and not many are going to agree with you anymore. It is a draconic idea to throw a tantrum over one's ancsetry anymore.

Then again, with the genetic tests of parenthood and the recent surge in family history. . .

who really knows. All I know is I would love my child equally, whether I had her in wedlock or out. And I would feel the same about myself, wedlock or not. Did I mention that I dislike that term? "wedlock." What, am I chained to my husband, lock and key? Old terms, losing there meaning quickly, if not already lost.

Old values rarely hold up anymore. I'm sorry. . . I really am. . . but that is true.


(( edited to add the question - if a couple marries only for the duration of pregnancy and birth, and then seperates shortly therafter, is the child legitimate and the parents free of guilt? ))

[Old Witch]

That's a darn good question Puma, undoubtly the child is legitimate, but then what is the point? A man can recognise his child and give it his name and take care of it...all without benefit of a legal document....... and still be an honorable man...........maybe more so, because there is no legal document telling him he must................

[Tammy Sullivan]

Originally posted by Old Witch
The "B" word is bastard by the way.........no one here would ever think to label any child that in this day and age......... I believe that word has lost the meaning it had in the past....and is now just a curse word..........Nope, nope ....don't agree with a word you said................And those people on Jerry Springer are off ther rockers anyway............

I got the feeling that "B" word was "Baseborn" but it does not only mean child of a prostitute it means born to low circumstances, or a worker/slave.
I also kind of got the feeling that the message Gwion was giving is more along the lines of men who spread their seed without a care, and the women who try to "trap" men into marriage.
My feelings on the matter are simple though, a human is a human is a human. I have seen and met some children raised only by one parent who far exceeded others who had both.

[Angelwulfe]

Originally posted by Gwion
I believe that it is a great dishonor to have an illegitimate child. There is no dishonor in BEING that child. The onus is on the parents.
it's hard not to regret posting this poll when i end up getting insulted. i know i asked for an oppion but i was really asking for advice. i apologize for not being clearer. i should'nt have posted it as a poll. i feel personally attacked and i would like this thread to be closed by a mod if at all possible.

[MammaStar]

Angel honey. You & Shadow are NOT wrong for what happened. You both are being WONDERFUL parents. Shadow's going to school and you're taking care of my beautiful niece. Don't let others bring you down.

I too, feel offended by being told I am a "dis-honorable" person. However, I also know that this person's opinion, is based on their belief. I don't ask that their belief be changed, can't do anything bout that. However, until you've walked in my shoes, Angel's shoes, or anyone else who's a single parent, please try not to make such general assumptions.

I am and so is my little sister, a wonderful mother, a good person, and yes honorable.

You know though, the term "legitmate" & "illigetimate" irk me. My son is just as legitimate as his 1/2 brother & sister. He's here. He's a person. He has parents. They just don't live together, which believe me, is the best thing for him.

Angel honey, again.....you are not at fault. You are a wonderful person. and a GREAT Mommy. Don't let short-sidedness get you down.

[Gwion]

Say someone posted a poll asking people's opinions on abortion, also a very emotional issue. If someone stated that they thought abortions were immoral, should the originator of the post take that as a personal insult if they were pro-choice, or had even had an abortion herself? If you don't want people to voice their opinions, don't ask for them or don't be offended when they give them. (BTW I am pro-choice)

[Faery-Wings]

***Moderator Mode***

Please let's be sensitive to the fact there are many single and/or unwed parents in this community. We do not need to place blame on these people for making a decision such as this. As well, we need to be respectful all opinions and all sides of the issue.

Thank you.

***End Moderator Mode***

[Yvonne Belisle]

Good call Chrissi We do need to remember all of us that this is a diverse community and we will not always agree. That shouldn't be offensive that someone simply has a different view.

[Angelwulfe]

i apologize for posting it in the first place. i just had a baby two months ago and i'm not all that emotionally stable so if someone implies that i'm an awful parent for something i did in the past, i'm going to feel hurt. all i can do is make the most of my situation. to me it dosn't matter how i brought my daughter into the world it matters what i do while she's here. of course every one's entitled to their own oppinions. i expected there would be people who didn't agree and thats fine i just thought they be would more tactful and would follow this community's rule of respect when stating their oppinions.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Personally I think you and your sweetie are doing nothing wrong but he did follow the rules he even stated that it was just his opinion. He did not attack anyone and he was basically respectful in how he stated things. I personally think you have nothing to feel guilty for since you love your child and to me that is all that matters not if this person was married to that one. Especially in a society where divorce is so easy. People don't marry and stay that way no matter what anymore I feel it is better to have a kid out of wedlock than in if there is any doubt that you want to spend your life with that person. Just because someone would make a good father doesn't make them a good husband. I think people tend to realize that now and some chose to have a child with someone specifically because of that rather than to wait till they find mr right who may not turn up in thier current lifetime.

[MammaStar]

Well said Eve. All that matters is that you raise your child with love. From one parent, or two or 20! :D As long as you have respect and love, you're child will grow up just fine.

Angel honey, that's exactly what you're doing. :D

[Amber Ravenstar]

I think that it is unfair to the child to bear it out of wedlock. There has been a social stigma applied to such children that far predates Christianity. And like it or not, the "B word" has been around for a long, long time, and has even appeared in Shakespeare. It is not the child's fault, it is the fault of the parents, but it is the child who must grown up with the knowledge that his/her parents didn't love one another or want to commit to one another enough to get married.

If you love someone enough to have sex with them and to want to have a child with them, you should love them enough to marry them. A child is a committment that lasts a minimum of 18 years; if you are willing to make that sort of committment to one another, marriage should be a no-brainer. And if you are not willing to make that committment, you have no business having a child. Use birth control.

Please understand that this is not a personal attack on anyone, it is simply a statement of my own beliefs and ethics.

[MammaStar]

In a perfect world, that would work. In my case. It didnt'. Tell, me, what are you to do when you become pregnant and the guy has taken off & wants nothing to do with the child. Yes, there are other options, but what if the mother's CHOICE is to keep the child? Then what? Get the shotgun? I've seen many so called "shot gun weddings" flake out over the years. A good friend of mine married his wife for "the child's sake" and they were the most unhappy couple you could meet. And it carried over to their son. He's grown into an angry young man, which is sad. My son, for the most part, is a happy well adjusted child, though I raise him alone.

Would I have liked a partner to help me raise my son? Well, yes. But I do have one. Eshallet. He helps me. I have a great support system. Consisted of friends & family. My father & my brothers have taken an active part in my son's life. For that I am grateful. Ideally, I would've loved to gotten married (just not to my son's father :p ) and had kids. But this is the hand the Goddess gave me. Probably cause she knew I'd be good at it. ;) I do the best I can, and believe, they are plenty of people around that tell me I'm not doing enough or that I'm a bad mother (his father's family is a loud chorus in that one).

I know the stigma's related to single parents and their children. A lot of them grow up to be fine, responsible adults. My brother is one, he had his troubles when he was young, but he has turned out to be a wonderful man, husband & father. But honestly, I don't think the stigma is that set these days. There are lots of women taking the initative to have children without a husband. For many reasons. Such as, they're older and their clock is ticking loudly and they want a child, but not a husband. A friend of my mother's did that. She's raising her daughter alone. Is it hard? Yes, at times it's hard, and sometimes, probably a bit harder than if there were two parents around. But it's worth it. Do I care what other's think of me? Not anymore. I used to, but now I don't anymore. It took me a long time to get there.

I'm not trying to turn you Amber or Gwion, around. I respect that you feel the way you do. I just wanted to show that there are 2 sides to the coin. Like I've said, ideally, I would've wanted it the way you all believe. Just didn't work out that way.

[Shadowulfe]

I feel it's quite okay to have a child out of wedlock. Myself and Angel are not married...although we plan to get married after I graduate college and get a good paying job. We don't love our child any less. In fact, we love her more and more each passing day. She is our "lil princess"The way i see it in most cases couples whom don't get married "for the child's sake" are just as honorable as married couples. Many of those single parents(Myself & Angel included) just feel it isn't the right time to get married and/or don't have the funds to get married. We feel that we will get married when the time is right.

Peace, Love and all that warm fuzzy feeling type stuff,
Shadow

[Willow_Raindancer]

I think raising a child out of wedlock is fine!
It took my husband and I 11 years to get legally married. Our daughter is almost 10 now. It takes more than a piece of paper to make a marraige anyway! A marriage is a religious union of 2 people!
NOW the States get involved because of the legal issues in Divorce!
YOU DON'T NEED THE STATE FOR A RELIGOUS UNION!
Just a legal state union!

Why did we finally get married?
Tax and Social Security reasons.
We were already married in our hearts!

I also want to add,
ALL CHILDREN ARE LEGITIMATE!;)

[Gwion]

I guess it boils down to what we consider sacred. To me, marriage is very sacred union, second only to union with the creator. A child deserves to be raised by a husband and wife, not just two people who are friends, pals, casual lovers, or those thinking about maybe considering possibly getting around to getting married one day. To some, marriage is just a piece of paper. Again, (though it seems nobody reads this part) there is no dishonor in being the child. Everytime I hear this debate, comes the shrill squeal "How can you call an innocent child such a thing!" I never said the child is to blame. It's the parents who are making the decision, not the unborn. Current statistics in the US are that about 50% of children being born now are illegitimate. There is no vast majority either way on this issue, because the other 50% are choosing to be married first. The sacred act of having children should be undertaken in the sacred union of marriage. A child deserves the same sacred commitment as a wife to her husband, and a husband to his wife. Oh, and to some people, passing along the family name does actually have some value in their traditions.

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by Gwion
....... Oh, and to some people, passing along the family name does actually have some value in their traditions.

Well, my son has his father's last name. And we were never married.

I understand what you say. I find it admirable that you have that quality about you. I hope that you always find yourself in that situation. I think, just by reading how strongly your beliefs are, that you will get married and have kids and not the opposite way.

But as I've said, that was my goal in life, just didn't work out that way. As you all are well aware, it takes 2 people to make marriage and kids work. Things happen, and you just try to make the best decision you can. doesn't make me or anyone who's gone down the same road as me a bad person.

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Gwion
I guess it boils down to what we consider sacred. To me, marriage is very sacred union, second only to union with the creator. A child deserves to be raised by a husband and wife, not just two people who are friends, pals, casual lovers, or those thinking about maybe considering possibly getting around to getting married one day. To some, marriage is just a piece of paper.

You imply that those who chose not to get married are not completely devoted to each other.

If marriage were a truly "sacred union" there wouldn't be so many divorces.

Love is the sacred union....marriage is just a political, social, economic signing of a piece of paper.

Honor isn't about a piece of paper....it's about a person's actions and how they live their lives.

[Ravens_Tears]

What matters is that the child/ children are safe and happy. I have had both my children "out of wedlock" and will NEVER regret it. It may be hard but they are safe and happy with me, not being exsposed to the assinine sperm donors who fathered them.. The only decent thing either of those two men has done is leave us alone.

[StormChaser]

When i was 16 i was engaged with a guy i was like.. "SOOOOO" in love with. hehe.

His mom said something that really rearranged my world because I had pretty much grown up watching my mom chase guys for security..

"Marriage nor Babies will make everything allright. If anything they make things more complicated. Do neither till you are ready, and don't for a second.. not ONE second Sarah.. think that the one needs the other!"

I'll never forget those words.. perhaps some of the wisest a woman has ever told me.

[StormChaser]

A child deserves love and to be raised with love.. a family is a group of people who are devoted to each.. doesn't matter what combination... who love each other.. who support each other.. who will always be there for each other uncoditionally.

I've seen children grow up fine, with one parent, two, with grandparents, with aunts and uncles. What a child deserves is a chance to good life, and two married unhappy stuck together by a peice of legality paper does not under any circumstances mean that the child will not suffer, will have a great life, will have anything even closely resembling a "normal" life filled with love, caring and support.

~Sarah

[Willow_Raindancer]

Here's my take on things,

First, there have always been children born out of wedlock.

Second, there will always be children born out of wedlock.

Third, is it really necessary to try and make anyone feel bad for this?

My answer for myself is an emphatic "no".
How you choose to answer is up to you.

I personally think it's time to stop all the remarks about "illegitimate" children. In my mind there's
no such thing;)

[Gwion]

>You imply that those who chose not to get married are not completely devoted to each other.<

"To me, marriage is very sacred union"

How do you get that implication from the above statement?

>Love is the sacred union....marriage is just a political, social, economic signing of a piece of paper.<

In my culture and tradition, when a man and woman love each other very much, they wed. This involves taking an vow to be monogamous to one another. ("Open marriages" are just adultery with mutual consent.) Of course, some people place no value in vows, oaths, or even their word. In civilized countries, marriage is voluntary. The wedded couple consider this ritual to be the ultimate consecration of their love in the sight of their Creator, often witnessed by dearest friends and family. There are quite a few happily married couples in the world who may not share your opinion. Marrying for political, social, or economic reasons could be likened to a form of prostitution. (Perhaps prostitute is too strong a word, how about "Lady of Easy Virtue.")Of course, a pig in a bikini is still a pig. But the pig without the bikini will get less, coments, stares, and chuckles.

>First, there have always been children born out of wedlock.

Second, there will always be children born out of wedlock.

Third, is it really necessary to try and make anyone feel bad for this?<

There have always been adulterers.

There will always be adulterers.

Is it really necesary to try to make anyone feel bad for this?

Let's just stop using words like, abortion, adultery, and illegitimate, and these things will cease to exist and no one will get their little feelings bruised.

[Willow_Raindancer]

Originally posted by Gwion
>You imply that those who chose not to get married are not completely devoted to each other.<

"To me, marriage is very sacred union"

How do you get that implication from the above statement?

>Love is the sacred union....marriage is just a political, social, economic signing of a piece of paper.<

In my culture and tradition, when a man and woman love each other very much, they wed. This involves taking an vow to be monogamous to one another. ("Open marriages" are just adultery with mutual consent.) Of course, some people place no value in vows, oaths, or even their word. In civilized countries, marriage is voluntary. The wedded couple consider this ritual to be the ultimate consecration of their love in the sight of their Creator, often witnessed by dearest friends and family. There are quite a few happily married couples in the world who may not share your opinion. Marrying for political, social, or economic reasons could be likened to a form of prostitution. (Perhaps prostitute is too strong a word, how about "Lady of Easy Virtue.")Of course, a pig in a bikini is still a pig. But the pig without the bikini will get less, coments, stares, and chuckles.

>First, there have always been children born out of wedlock.

Second, there will always be children born out of wedlock.

Third, is it really necessary to try and make anyone feel bad for this?<

There have always been adulterers.

There will always be adulterers.

Is it really necesary to try to make anyone feel bad for this?

Let's just stop using words like, abortion, adultery, and illegitimate, and these things will cease to exist and no one will get their little feelings bruised.

To compare children born out of wedlock to adulterers is like comparing apples and oranges:rolleyes:

Also if you want to use the words abortion, adultery, and illegitimate in order to hurt someone, that's on you!
All I have to say on that is watch out for the "Karma Police";)
I personally don't feel the need to hurt anyone.
I never said ignoring a problem makes it go away, but then again, I don't think children born out of wedlock as being a problem. The problem is when some people want to tell others how they should live.;)
Stateing one's opinion is fine and dandy, after all, I'm sitting in a free country.:D

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Gwion
"To me, marriage is very sacred union"

How do you get that implication from the above statement?
*shakes head* Not from that one....from this one:

"A child deserves to be raised by a husband and wife, not just two people who are friends, pals, casual lovers, or those thinking about maybe considering possibly getting around to getting married one day."

The implication there is that if one hasn't gotten married....they are only "pals, casual lovers, etc". Not the case, you don't know the motives or beliefs or dedication of those who are together but decide not to get married, so I was just pointing out that I feel your logic is biased and flawed.
In my culture and tradition, when a man and woman love each other very much, they wed.

May I ask just what your culture and traditions are? Maybe that would help me better understand your position.

Of course, some people place no value in vows, oaths, or even their word....The wedded couple consider this ritual to be the ultimate consecration of their love in the sight of their Creator, often witnessed by dearest friends and family.

*laughs* Okay....so to just take a vow to each other that you'll stay together as long as love lasts is not the same as signing a piece of paper that says you'll stay together until you call your divorce lawyer?

*shrugs and shakes head* I just don't see the "dishonor" if two people decide to spend the rest of their lives together without ever going through the legal formalities of a marriage.....their sacred, private oaths to each other are more than honorable enough in my eyes.

The Creator saw sacred unions into exsistance long before the advent of the modern day marriage...*shakes head*....what goes on between a couple is between them, and their Gods. No one else.

[MammaStar]

Brava Wanderer! :nonono: :nonono: I don't think I could've said it better myself.

[Gwion]

>a vow to each other that you'll stay together as long as love lasts<

Wow, what a deep vow. Why not just make it, "untill we get bored with each other?"

>the legal formalities of a marriage<

"The wedded couple consider this ritual to be the ultimate consecration of their love in the sight of their Creator, often witnessed by dearest friends and family."

As you can see, I never mentioned legal formalities, I referred to vows that a couple make to each other in a sacred context, not secular.

>* I just don't see the "dishonor" if two people decide to spend the rest of their lives together without ever going through the legal formalities of a marriage.....their sacred, private oaths to each other are more than honorable enough in my eyes.<

Niether do I. Was that supposed to be a rebuttal of some sort or just a random non-sequitor?

You seem determined to spit on marriage. Sounds like a personal issue.

>To compare children born out of wedlock to adulterers is like comparing apples and oranges<

I consider both to be immoral. In one case, the spouse is the victim, in the other, the child.

[WandererInGray]

Wow, what a deep vow. Why not just make it, "untill we get bored with each other?"

*snorts* Explain to me the point of staying with someone you're no longer in love with. People *do* fall out of love...find that they've both changed and grown in such a fashion that who they once were are no longer compatable with each other. *shrugs* I don't see what the big deal is...and it causes a hél of a lot less heartbreak all around if people were to be that open and honest with each other.

You seem determined to spit on marriage. Sounds like a personal issue.

*laughs hysterically* Since you don't know me at all, Gwion...I'll not take that as the insult you so blantantly attempted.

*chuckles again* I'm happily engaged and happily planning a *gasp* wedding oh my gods! :eek: Complete with vows, wedding dresses, signed papers, and witnesses of family and friends.

I'm merely joining in this discussion because a) I took issue with your use of "dishonorable" and b) because I love good, thoughtful exchanges of beliefs and ideas.

Now...would you like to answer my question about your culture and traditions, or would you like to attempt to insult me somemore? :D

[Phoenix Blue]

So: Which type of marriage is more important in the raising of a child by two parents? A legal marriage, or a spiritual marriage? Any two people who are in love with one another can enter a spiritual marriage. For reasons that have little to do with love or spirituality, not all couples who are married spiritually can marry legally.

There is a greater dishonor in living a lie than in admitting failure and parting ways in peace. As someone who lived a lie for three years before finally freeing myself from a hellish marriage, I speak from personal experience of this subject.

Edit

Incidentally, passing on a family name means a great deal to me. . . which is why I'm trying to get my ex, who has since remarried, to change her last name from mine to her new husband's.

[Sequoia]

I still havn't heard you answer my question. . . if a couple marries only for the duration of pregnancy and birth, and then seperates shortly therafter, is the child legitimate and the parents free of guilt?

For me, personally, I belive that no child is illegitimate. And speaking as a woman who knows what it is like to be unable to marry, when she wanted to. . . I know that there can be unions and vows outside of the ones that some politician declaired legal for me to use. I don't need a piece of paper for that, no public record. If the two people know it, and are devoted to eachother, that is all that really matters.

Gwion, please forgive me for this attempted understanding, but from what I have seen, a lot of your beliefs are word-for-word throwbacks from the medieval times. If this is what you are attempting, to bring back those good and clean and simple ideals. . . . study a bit more. Things were far more complex than the written 'laws'. And to take those ancient things literally, AND try to apply them to the modern world (and it's not even Europe! At least, not in my case), just isn't going to work. They weren't applied constantly, literally, then either. In any case, unless 'you' are some hardarse who cannot find a shred of intelligence or compassion, each cercomstance is different. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is ever black-and-white. And to try to look at things in such a manner, is only to doom yourself and countless others. Times past weren't simple enough for this, and neither are times present. It is merely that history tends to remember things in such a way. History is not how the history books say it is. :)

And still. . . if a couple marries, only for the pregnancy and birth, then seperates, is the child legitimate and the parents free of guilt? Or if a husband is beating his wife, should she stay with him to be an honourable and good wife? Or vice versa? If she doesn't wear floor-length skirts all the time, and happens to show her ankles or possibly even her legs, and refuses to wear the proper undergarments of a lady (such as her corset and chemise), is she a harlot? If you do not own land, are you a slave to the local knight?

Obviously, some of the older ideals don't apply today. . .

[Gwion]

With all this talk about the baby-daddys being "just sperm donors," and how awful it would have been to have someone like him raise the child, or what an awful husband he would have made, sort of raises the question, "Then what the hell were you thinking having sex with such a jerk in the first place? Whose bad judgement led to that? Momentary lapse of reason? (um, "I was dark, it was drunk?")

>Now...would you like to answer my question about your culture and traditions,or would you like to attempt to insult me somemore? <

No. I choose not to answer your question because it's none of your business. I believe it has something to do with "casting pearls before swine." Hope your marriage doesn't turn boring or loveless. Of course, there's always divorce. Your idea of marriage sounds more like spouse rental. I can just imagine what kind of vows you'll take. "Until we get tired of one another, or until I meet someone better or until I just change my mind, or until I just feel like dumping you." Your kind of commitment sounds an awful lot like a definite maybe. You may kiss

...the bride.

"Sounds like a personal issue" is not an insult, just an observation. If I stoop to insult you, you'll know it. But, "they as touch pitch shall be defiled, and there's an end." If you would like to be insulted, maybe you should open a thread for your self: "Abuse."


>I still havn't heard you answer my question. . . if a couple marries only for the duration of pregnancy and birth, and then seperates shortly therafter, is the child legitimate and the parents free of guilt?<

Yes, absolutely. In fact, my dearest friend did just that so that her son would not have to live with the stigma of being a b*stard.

As for your comment about medieval morals, my mother would be horrified if I presented her with an illegitimate grandchild, and she was born slightly after the middle-ages. Some things are perennial, like adultery being trashy, and no matter how much proponents of these behaviours would like justify their actions with rhetoric, it's still just as trashy today as it was back then, and that applies to a lot of issues.

[Sequoia]

ouch!

someone dissagreed, and you attacked her?

quoth gwion
Sounds like a personal issue


Indeed it does. Are you perhaps insecure in your beliefs, enough to have to 'prove' that you belive in them, by 'defending' them against the horrible disbelievers?

And I'm certain you'd be an avid subscriber to the 'abuse' thread. :) Perhaps you can start it for us?

Enough about pigs and pearls. Obviously, you've spent much time with one of these. Let's get back on the topic, before a moderator has to close the thread. It would be a great loss.

[Faery-Wings]

Moderator Mode

This topic is getting out of hand. I think we have lost sight of the issue and I am closing this thread.

End Moderator Mode