Four Elements, what do you think of them and how do you use them?

[Dale Ivarie]

So give me your thoughts on the elements...what do they mean or not mean to you...
How do you use them in magic/ritual etc....

and remember shaving monkeys is fun




Dale

[Semele]

The elements are everything. Everything is somehow connected to the power of those elements and therefor the elemental power can be harnessed again for use. It is all in how you choose to harness those powers.

As for shaving monkeys, it can be fun but also challenging. Shaving cats however, not so fun.

[debnmike]

So give me your thoughts on the elements...what do they mean or not mean to you...
How do you use them in magic/ritual etc....

and remember shaving monkeys is fun
Dale

Hi Dale,

In magic/ritual, we use them (for lack of a better explanation) as a reminder of the energy we are using. Because Mike and I connect with nature in general, having symbols of said elements helps us feel more connected--i.e. stones, dirt, rainwater--that kind of thing.

Plus, it calms the monkey down when we shave it--'specially the patchoulli incense--that's always a winner.

[Dale Ivarie]

Hi Dale,

In magic/ritual, we use them (for lack of a better explanation) as a reminder of the energy we are using. Because Mike and I connect with nature in general, having symbols of said elements helps us feel more connected--i.e. stones, dirt, rainwater--that kind of thing.

Plus, it calms the monkey down when we shave it--'specially the patchoulli incense--that's always a winner.


Why those four elements...? and what association...kinda of energy do you feel they have....
do you ever use one more than another...etc...

Not trying to grill you just throwing out some further questions...


Thanks again

Dale

[debnmike]

Why those four elements...? and what association...kinda of energy do you feel they have....
do you ever use one more than another...etc...

Not trying to grill you just throwing out some further questions...


Thanks again

Dale

'Sokay...I don't feel "grilled".....fried, maybe, but not grilled.

I don't know that I can articulate exactly what we get outta that. For me I suppose it helps me concentrate on the force of nature itself, with each element representing the different types of forces. Dang, that sounded lame, but I told you it'd be hard to explain it correctly.

I don't think we use one more than the other, at least not on purpose. I mean, on a daily basis I've got incense burning and candles too, but that doesn't really have anything more to do with ritual than it does with habit :hahugh: (Patchoulli is soooo my bestest friend!!)

I'm thinking I'm not accurately answering your question--I apologize for that. If I haven't, let me know and I'll try to clarify it a bit.

[Dale Ivarie]

I'm just being curious about how people think about feel about and use the four element in magic and ritual...

I think you're answers are groovy....I'll send you a monkey soon...would you prefer a howler..rhesus...or.. spider...?

Dale

[debnmike]

I'm just being curious about how people think about feel about and use the four element in magic and ritual...

I think you're answers are groovy....I'll send you a monkey soon...would you prefer a howler..rhesus...or.. spider...?

Dale

Seriously, if I didn't answer it right (I started to confuse myself), let me know.

I want one of the regular ones....chimp, maybe? I'd name it Skeeter, dress it up and make it do housework (or at least serve drinks).

[Sage Rainsong]

I think of the four elements like any other system. It is useful but it's not the only sytem. Also I think that there is a lot more to earth air fire and water because in reality they are abstract concepts. Concepts are not nessesarily a bad thing of course. Earth is not just the ground, it is all things solid. Water is all things fluid eh you get the idea. It is a good system and I do use it but not all of the time. Sometimes I use the whole druidic three realm system (earth sea and sky). It depends on what I am doing. I like the three realm systme when I am working with nature spirits. I think that what is really impoptant and what runs through all elemental systems is the fact that they all work as a whole. All of nature works collectively, harmoniously and interdependent with each other. Did that make any sense?

[Dale Ivarie]

I think of the four elements like any other system. It is useful but it's not the only sytem. Also I think that there is a lot more to earth air fire and water because in reality they are abstract concepts. Concepts are not nessesarily a bad thing of course. Earth is not just the ground, it is all things solid. Water is all things fluid eh you get the idea. It is a good system and I do use it but not all of the time. Sometimes I use the whole druidic three realm system (earth sea and sky). It depends on what I am doing. I like the three realm systme when I am working with nature spirits. I think that what is really impoptant and what runs through all elemental systems is the fact that they all work as a whole. All of nature works collectively, harmoniously and interdependent with each other. Did that make any sense?

I understand what you are saying..could you give me and example of ritual/magical use of the element concept etc...

I understand the concept have been to many a ritual where they "called the quarters etc"

Trying to get a feeling for what these things/concepts mean to pagans (on more than a superficial level) and how they use them...often what a thing does (how it is used magically/ritually) shows a lot about its essence....

Thanks for the post rainsong....

Debnmike...skeeter the monkey maid...awesome...absolutly awesome..thats an image that will be stuck in my head for some time...wether thats good or bad i don't know...


Dale

[Kmartin60]

:hahugh: Hope i dont sound too newbie-skin, :lol: but I picture air as mental, change (The winds of change giggles) fire: creativity...and final results....earth: grounding, keeping one from getting to far out of our reality of the moment the here and now....(that's for the air element) 8O water: our emotions..feeling what we create or what our spell we do effects, be it our heart or compassion, or guilt...

I think all combined keeps us grounded, motivated (correctly) and inspired.

Do I sound like a total newbie dunce? :spaceman:

[Sage Rainsong]

I understand what you are saying..could you give me and example of ritual/magical use of the element concept etc...

Well For example if a have a goal that I think has the properties of an element I will use it. For example if I wanted a deep cleansing I may visualize it in the shower because I am under water and water is most associated with cleansing in my mind. Is that you were asking for?

[cheddarsox]

In an altar for ritual, i will usually include something to represent each element. I don't really do "magic".

I use the elements to jump start and maintain awareness. To remind me that we are all, and everything else too, made of the same stuff and powered by the same energies. so, reminders of the elements help me recall this when my awareness starts to dwindle.

I also go with my "gut" reguarding which element to dwell in when I take on the day. I wear different clothing and jewelry, scent, etc, depending on which elements characteristics I need to meet the challenges of the day.

A year ago, I made a set of element cards which I often use to focus my intention for the day or when dealing with a specific issue.

The deck has about 60 cards, using images that represent each element or a combination of elements...water, ice, rain, dew...or combo, mud=water and earth, lava= earth and fire, etc. On the back are characteristics, and guiding thoughts that are inspired by the elements.

I really love this deck. I would like to publish it someday, but friends suggested I test it out for a time myself to see how it works. So far, so good!

cheddar

[Windsmith]

Earth is not just the ground, it is all things solid. Water is all things fluid eh you get the idea. This intrigues me, Sage Rainsong, and I'd love to hear you explain it in greater detail. How would this system deal with, for instance, ice, which is solid but made of water? What about lava, which is liquid rock? I'd love to learn more!


Trying to get a feeling for what these things/concepts mean to pagansWell, I can't speak for "Pagans" - I can barely speak for myself, some days. But I can say this much: to me, the Elements are to magic and ritual what words are to sentences. They are the basis of everything. Take away any one of them, and we'd all be screwed. Try to remove any one of them from a magical working (for me, anyway), and the whole thing becomes like a chair with 3 legs: sure it looks OK, but the instant you try to sit in it is the instant you realize how unstable it truly is.

Every weekday I perform a tea ritual that honors how the 4 Elements as I understand them (I realize that other systems look at Elements differently): the water, the heat that boils the water, the air bubbles that form as the water boils, the pot that holds it (and the tea leaves themselves). When I take a shower, I take in the power of water and fire as the warm water washes over me, of the air I feel on every part of my body not directly under the spray, and the earth beneath my feet.

The Elements are honored on our home altar in a very literal way: a feather, ashes from a bonfire; a small cup of water (which is melted snow in the winter); a beautiful rock. They are, to me, the least metaphorical aspects of Paganism.

That being said, I do also have wonderful figurative associations for them: intellect and creativity for Air; passion, will, and truth for Fire; emotion, intuition, and dreams for Water; solidity and reward for Earth. I can correlate them to different seasons, different times of day, different kinds of animals, even different musical instruments. But in the end, those are just flourishes - like a fancy font in writing. The Elements are the foundation. Without all of them truly present in a magical working, it is a wobbly chair. Without any of them truly present, there is no chair.

[Amythyst]

I don't know if I can explain it...

Forces, energies, images, triggers, gateways, power...it all comes from the mind and yet it doesn't. It feels like there's something else to it. Earth-- ground, dirt, stability, the physical, solidity, immobility through rootedness, something concrete and immovable. Air-- fragility, illusivness, mental power, communication through thought, learning, birds, leaves rustling in the trees, connectedness through the mind and beyond. Fire-- passion, heat, destructiveness, flames in the cauldron that seem to speak to you and mesmerize you, sex, lust, hot flesh against flesh. Water-- visions, tears, emotions that overwhelm and engulf, looking at someone and seeing things about them that they don't know you see, blue, cool pools, rain.

I incorporate herbs, stones, objects, candles, colors into my spells that are associated with the Element that I am working with. Circle casting...I set and open the gateways to these Elements asking for their guardianship, their protection, their power.

[plumedsnake]

It seems to me that there are different ways of understanding the 4 elements. The first is to see them as the basic building blocks of matter and all things. ie. Like Plato in Timaeus seemed to be suggesting.

Then you could also see them as processes. so a thing could go through a air process and then a fire process, but that only describes the dynamics it's going through not what it is made off.

Then what don't understand is how elements get converted one into another.

[Dale Ivarie]

Some things to think about while thinking about the elements…

Are they associated with directions? E.G. is west always fire etc
Are they actually physical elements or are more emotional and psychological symbols?
Do you believe that everything is physically made up of different proportions of these elements?


The Greek philosophers like Empedocles in the 5th century b.c.e. and Aristotle in the 4th C. b.c.e. identified four fundamental elements: earth, air, fire, and water, which became the basis for western thinking about the natural (especially inanimate) world right up until evolution from alchemy to chemistry in the 18th century.
That is to say that people “believed” whole heartedly that objects, animals and everything else was actually constructed of different t amounts of earth, air, fire and water. This was the scientific belief at the time. This in turn made it much easier to have a deep faith and believe when using these concepts ritually or magically. Everyone knew with out a doubt at the time that the physical world was truly constructed of these four elements…
In his Tetrasomia, or Doctrine of the Four Elements, Empedocles described these elements not only as physical manifestations or material substances, but also as spiritual essences. He linked these elements with four gods and goddesses - air with Zeus, earth with Hera, fire with Hades, and water with Nestis. Actually he at times used their names interchangeably with that of the element for example…

“Now hear the fourfold roots of everything:
Enlivening Hera, Hades, shining Zeus
And Nestis, moistening mortal springs with tears.”

Now hear of the fourfold roots of everything:
Enlivening Earth and Fire, Shining Sky
And Water moistening mortal springs with rain.

I think that the divorcing of myth from the scientific understanding of the world makes true faith and belief “Elements’ or “Deities” difficult at best. I don’t see why we can’t do what the ancients did and start with the observations (science) of the world and integrate it into our spirituality.so there is no contradiction…there is only a spiritual meaning to our scientific understanding of the universe…
As far as the elements are concerned the divorce of the spiritual from the scientific occurred in that transition from alchemy to chemistry in the 18th century. Alchemy had a philosophy that included the spiritual “meaning” or essence of the physical world. Chemistry stripped this away, primarily because those who held to the “spiritual meanings” were unwilling to adapt them in light of new evidence. I would say the Gods were revealing new spiritual truths through observation of the physical world.but those who held a more spiritual view wanted their old view of the world to remain unchanged. So their view stagnated and withered as the Divine continued to reveal itself.

But hey that might just be me…

I appreciate all the posts..and I have simply been asking…..

How do you use the concept of the four elements?
What is your understanding of the four elements?
How useful or significant do you find them?

Since my questions are just to get a feeling of others views..all the answers that have been given are correct in my view. Any comments very welcome because my goal is just to see this concept through some of your eyes…to help me look at my own view of them…


Dale

p.s. will hop on later and respond to some of the previous posts individualy....thanks again for all of your input..
and to those who said "i'm not sure if this is clear..or do I sound like a newbie" This is just a fun topic for me..no one has sounded like a newbie..and each of the posts have given me things to think about ....so again thank you