Hellenic Recons: Does miasma stress you out?

[Hellenic_Witch]

I understand the principle of miasma, and it is important to me to shower before rituals and use khernips. but, I am curious how much does the possibility of offending the gods through miasma affect you? Realistically, throughout the day since I have occasional, spontaneous prayers..it would not be possible to wash my hands each and every time I pray or address the gods.

My relationship with my gods is very personal to me, so I'm not looking to change my approach at all, but miasma is a concern for me and I am interested in how and to what extent it affects other recons. I take such pains to avoid miasma, out of respect for my gods I do not perform rituals during menstruation (sorry if that's too much information!) and I think that my gods are aware that I make an effort to not offend them.

But, since miasma is an issue, sometimes I'm surprised that the ancient Greeks weren't obsessive-compulsive in their personal hygiene, as well as the cleaning of their altars!

[Theres]

i'm a bit concerned regarding casual ritual.

nights like tonight i do a full ritual bath before i approach my altar, and try to avoid bad food amd other pollution during the day. for something really important i might even fast for three days prior.

but for daily stuff i generally just wash my hands while thinking about purity ( ;) ), and i never feel fully comfortable with that. but life does get in the way sometimes no matter how hard we try to avoid it.

[Hellenic_Witch]

Purity of thought...that's a tough one.

I think that, for me, being aware that as humans we aren't pure for a variety of reasons, that we are inviting divine beings into our space (that, by association is also impure)out of respect we should recognize that although the gods are present, they are different beings from us. Just as I will clean my home before inviting guests (I clean like crazy even when it's just may parents visiting!) it would be rude or inhospitable to invite my gods into a place that I have not readied for them or if I have not prepared myself in both body and thought.

And yet I still worry if I do enough.

[Athena-Nadine]

i'm a bit concerned regarding casual ritual.

nights like tonight i do a full ritual bath before i approach my altar, and try to avoid bad food amd other pollution during the day. for something really important i might even fast for three days prior.

but for daily stuff i generally just wash my hands while thinking about purity ( ;) ), and i never feel fully comfortable with that. but life does get in the way sometimes no matter how hard we try to avoid it.

I'm with Theres on this. :) I am looking for a proper bowl at the moment to use for ritual cleansing for basic, daily prayers. I want something I can fill with water every morning (and as often as needed) and ask Zeus to bless so I can use the water to rinse away the daily miasma before praying. I've been looking for a couple of years now but have yet to purchase anything. I haven't been able to find that one bowl that jumps out at me and screams, "This is it!"

[Athena-Nadine]

And yet I still worry if I do enough.

That you continue to worry while doing all you can think of shows the gods how much you respect Them. They know we are not perfect (they don't expect us to be). :)

[David19]

I'm interested in the Greek religion (among other things, right now i'm trying to see which one 'calls' to me), and i was wondering, what exactly is miasma, from what i've read, it seems to be an impurity you get when you come into contact with certain things (like death, blood, insanity, and i think i've read pregnancies and sex also caused it (although didn't the Greek's have a positive view of sex and wasn't part of the culture considered erotic (like all the tales of homosexual lovers, etc), but is that all the stuff that cause miasma, or is there more (is it something you have to do daily (like when you wash yourself to wake yourself up more or when to clean the physical dirt off of you).

Thanks, and hope that made some sense :).

[Theres]

all of the things you mentioned were considered pollution... even the good stuff! but you have to keep in mind the context.

sex was not a taboo in Greece, but you weren't supposed to enter the sanctuary right after having sex. childbirth was included in this, as was menstruation and death too... it was at least a three day ban if you had been around the dead.

so the average citizen could go about his merry way, but entrance to the temenos was forbidden within certain guidelines. this was why every sanctuary had a font at the entrance (which Athena-Nadine touched upon), to wash away this miasma.

however some things were well beyond a quick washing of the hands. murderers might never be able to enter, or at the very least had to undergo very involved cleansing processes which might include washing in the sea multiple times, initiation ceremonies (which were intense!) or even temporary banishment.

[David19]

all of the things you mentioned were considered pollution... even the good stuff! but you have to keep in mind the context.

sex was not a taboo in Greece, but you weren't supposed to enter the sanctuary right after having sex. childbirth was included in this, as was menstruation and death too... it was at least a three day ban if you had been around the dead.

so the average citizen could go about his merry way, but entrance to the temenos was forbidden within certain guidelines. this was why every sanctuary had a font at the entrance (which Athena-Nadine touched upon), to wash away this miasma.

however some things were well beyond a quick washing of the hands. murderers might never be able to enter, or at the very least had to undergo very involved cleansing processes which might include washing in the sea multiple times, initiation ceremonies (which were intense!) or even temporary banishment.

Thanks for that, the Hellenic is something i'm very interested in learning about, but i have another question, which i hope you or others don't mind me asking, most Pagans (now anyway) will have their altars or shrines in their rooms, without the luxury of a Temple), so how would you get around that (like if you were going to have sex, would you cover the altar/shrine or something).

Also, i know sex was seen as good, but still containing or creating Miasma, so you couldn't enter the Temple right after, but were there some deities that sex was a part of worship (i think i've read that sex was, sometimes, used as a part of Aphrodite worship), also, when sacrifices were done to the gods (like animal, etc), where was the blood spilled (was it done outside the Temple so the gods Temple wasn't contaminated with miasma or was the animal considered sacred and therefore not containing miasma?).

Hope that made some sense and hope it wasn't too many questions :).

[Theres]

most 'sanctuaries' didn't have a temple... they were open areas contained by a low wall within which everything was considered sacred. there would have been an altar for sacrifice, but quite often very little else.

at the larger sanctuaries in the more affluent city-states there might have been a temple, but this was used more as a treasury to contain the votive offerings to the deity in question. however worship and sacrifice was not done in the temple, but rather outside at the altar.
and since the blood involved during sacrifice was part of the offering, i don't think it was seen as miasma. in fact during one ritual to Demeter the bull was slaughtered on a grid above a large hole, and initiates would be drenched in this blood as part of their initiation.

as far as sexual practices and taboos, that would probably be determined by the cult you were a part of... i'm sure the rules were different for each cult (ie; the Dionysiac cults were generally very randy). but this really goes back once again to exploding the idea that there was a unified Greece, or even a common Hellenic practice throughout the Greek world.
so with this in mind i would think that a modern Hellene will have to determine for themselves the best way to work with (or without) their altars, and how their lifestyles will fit in with that while all the time keeping in mind the requirements of their deity or cult.

imo.

[David19]

most 'sanctuaries' didn't have a temple... they were open areas contained by a low wall within which everything was considered sacred. there would have been an altar for sacrifice, but quite often very little else.

at the larger sanctuaries in the more affluent city-states there might have been a temple, but this was used more as a treasury to contain the votive offerings to the deity in question. however worship and sacrifice was not done in the temple, but rather outside at the altar.
and since the blood involved during sacrifice was part of the offering, i don't think it was seen as miasma. in fact during one ritual to Demeter the bull was slaughtered on a grid above a large hole, and initiates would be drenched in this blood as part of their initiation.

as far as sexual practices and taboos, that would probably be determined by the cult you were a part of... i'm sure the rules were different for each cult (ie; the Dionysiac cults were generally very randy). but this really goes back once again to exploding the idea that there was a unified Greece, or even a common Hellenic practice throughout the Greek world.
so with this in mind i would think that a modern Hellene will have to determine for themselves the best way to work with (or without) their altars, and how their lifestyles will fit in with that while all the time keeping in mind the requirements of their deity or cult.

imo.

Thanks for that, i'm learning a lot of things about the Hellenic religious practices (not as much as i'd like to but i think i'm learning a bit), so thanks again :).

BTW, i've got a question about Temples, is it true that the Temple was considered the home of the god (e.g. like would a Temple of Apollo be seen as actually housing the god, etc), i think that the idea comes from the Near/Middle East (Sumeria, i think?).

And, i understand, from what you said, the blood of a sacrificial animal would be sacred and therefore not contain miasma, but were there certain deities that blood offerings were considered offensive (like, i can't remember which god, but i've heard that some gods were only offered grains, liberations, etc (not sure if that's true, at first i was going to say Demeter but after you said she received a sacrificial bull, i'm guessing not).

[eihdos]

I take such pains to avoid miasma, out of respect for my gods I do not perform rituals during menstruation (sorry if that's too much information!) and I think that my gods are aware that I make an effort to not offend them.

According to Robert Parker's "Miasma" there's not much that supports the view that menstruation made the woman polluted, though he also mentions that Aristotle thought that women bled during the last days month, the days that were sacred to the dead and to Hekate, and therefore more polluted. On the other hand, you could see it from the opposite perspective and say that the very last day of the month, at least, was about purification. People did, after all, carry the household sweepings to the crossroads. There's also, I believe, some evidence that menstruation was considered a purification of the body. (I'll try to find sources if you want them.) However, unlike Parker I'm not a scholar, so you should take everything I say with a few extra grains of salt. And I completely understand the personal choice not to perform rituals while bleeding, even if ancient Greek women didn't.