Poor Homeless Scorpio

[KEishin]

(Not. I've never met a poor *anything* Scorpio. :hehehehe: )

Now no decisons have been made, so I have no answers, but my guess is that Scorpio will get shifted back to Mars. But stay tuned. I expect there to be a flurry of chatter on the astro boards for a while now.

Ever since Pluto was discovered in the 1930, there has been a raging debate about whether Pluto or Mars ruled Scorpio. Currently, the majority have assigned Scorpio and the 8th house to Pluto. But there is still a minority opinion that it belongs to Mars. Before the discovery of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto the ancient rulerships were:

Sun - Leo
Moon - Cancer
Mercury - Gemini, Virgo
Venus - Taurus, Libra
Mars - Aries, Scorpio
Jupiter - Pisces, Sagittarius
Saturn - Aquarius, Capricorn

When Uranus was discovered, the astrologers immediately placed its rulership to Aquarius. The same happened to Neptune. Astrologers gave it rulership of Pisces and there was consensus. Only with Pluto has there been debate. Figures. Only with Scorpio would there be this much argument. (Try not to argue with Scorpios kids - it shortens your life span.) You guys can't let anything go can you? :lol:
:dodges the rotten vegetables:

So I'd love to hear from some Scorpio Suns out there. What do you think of this?

[Xander67]

speaking from the opposite side of scorpio, taurus,

Reguardless of what 300 people think, (those are the ones who actually voted out of the 2500 who showed up for the meeting) I sincerely Doubt that the AMAFA will make any changes to its policy on pluto just because a few people dicided to change the deffinition of what a planet is...

I feel it would be a shame to let the scientific community start dictating mystical teaching.

just because someone says pluto is or is not a planet doesnt make its imapct in our lives all of a sudden dissapear...

Reguardless, I intend to continue my astrology work and my work in the metaphsyical as I learned it...

To simply shift Scorpio into another planet would make the astrologers look like fools...

what right do these people have to tell us astrologers who to cast our charts?? are we expected to simply igore the powerfull influence Pluto has when it is on the move???

Im sorry, I will not take this one lying down, I shall not conform!:rant:

[Philosophia]

As a scorpio, damn those infidels! I want my planet! :D

[KEishin]

I sincerely Doubt that the AMAFA will make any changes to its policy on pluto just because a few people dicided to change the deffinition of what a planet is...

what right do these people have to tell us astrologers who to cast our charts?? are we expected to simply igore the powerfull influence Pluto has when it is on the move??? Im sorry, I will not take this one lying down, I shall not conform!:rant:
Rant away, my friend, rant away.

I would be shocked if Pluto just suddenly disappeared from astrology because the IAU think bigger is better. Ceres, Pallas, Chiron - all are not planets but there is ample proof they affect the chart. I personally love my Pluto in my chart - he does some very nice things and in fact one of his transits was what moved me into seriously studying astrology.

So who knows what could happen. Those science types don't usually agree with us mystical types anyway . . .

[CelestiaSynth]

I was at work today when I heard the news ( I work at a planetarium ), and one of my first thoughts was "Hmm, I wonder how the spiritual community will take this?"; knowing that astrology plays, for many people, a vital part in spiritual self-discovery. I honestly think the demontion to a 'dwarf planet' should not effect the Pluto's sphere of influence. I mean, after all we know that Pluto techinically doesn't have to be a planet to be influentual ( The Sun and the Moon demonstrate that ). If anything, it this all lends brand new attention to the other moons/dwarf planets/whatever-they-are's Charon, Nix, and Hydra.

[RedRose]

I wonder how Jeff Green is taking the news?

RedRose

[LostSheep]

As a scorpio, damn those infidels! I want my planet! :D

I think we should get Xena. That sounds cool.

[Fluffmeister]

Ha, that'll teach ya for your fickleness, Scorpio!

Scorpio and Mars were happily married for thousands of years and rubbed along very nicely. But then Scorpio's head was turned in 1930, when a dark suave mysterious stranger from America came along and started wooing her.

"Watch out", we all said. "He may look handsome, but he has a dark side. I wouldn't trust that one - he'll woo you, steal you from Mars and then dump you."

Much gnashing of teeth and worried looks took place as Scorpio rushed headlong into the arms of this dark stranger, heedless of the warnings.

"He's highly eccentric", we all said. "Not good news for a fixed sign like you".

"Ah, but I'm intruiged by his unusual inclination", said Scorpio, too much in love to think clearly, "and let's face it, I've always been drawn to the dark side a little."

But slowly the truth began to leak out. Far from being the dark loner that everyone thought, it turned out that Pluto had been hanging out with his hard-core drinking buddies behind Scorpio's back. He wasn't a loner at all - he spent his time mixing with a most unsavoury bunch of centaurs, who'd kept themselves well hidden from the authorities. OK, the first guy, Chiron, seemed a nice enough sort of dude and we turned a blind eye. However, eventually they caught up with the others - and a whole series of "Wanted" posters appeared for these dodgy characters, known to the authorities simply as "KBOs". Chaotic dealer and drunkard Pholus was the first to be apprehended in 1992; then self-harmer Hylonome and violent rapist Nessus were hauled in. Pluto was desperately trying to distance himself from these characters, claiming that he was "different", and besides was now happily married to a nice respectable zodiac sign (despite the fact that had been unpleasant rumours about the true nature of his relationship with his twin Charon).

It didn't wash, though. They checked out his story, and it just didn't wash. Eccentric orbit, small rocky body, inclined orbit - our smooth operator had all the hallmarks of a KBO, and he was finally brought to book.

Sorry, Scorpio - I know you're heartbroken but don't say we didn't warn you. Put it down to experience and life's rich tapestery. Yeah, Mars was furious at the time, but you got to love a guy like Mars with a short fuse but a short memory to go with it. All is forgiven, and he's glad to have you back!

[KEishin]

Fluff I can't karma you for that one yet . . . but bravo! :lol:
(Btw, nice to see you back!)

[Astara Seague]

As a scorpio, damn those infidels! I want my planet! :D

:yayah: me too!!!
and Lost Sheep...Zena is a good idea!!!:lol:

[RedRose]

Cheers Fluffmeister!

That is very funny. I just read it outloud to some astrologer friends and our bellies are aching.

How humbling for poor Scorpio. Big bad Pluto turns out to be just a little bitty tiny weeny dwarf of a planet; a Plutoid. Shucks.

Meanwhile, Aquarians are still ruled by Saturn AND Uranus! The vast humility of Aquarians has been rewarded at last.

RedRose

[LostSheep]

hey, who says we have accept what "they" say is or isn't a planet anyway? Think outside the box, why don't we? And anyway, Aquarius can share Saturn and Uranus, so we've still got Mars, haven't we? Or have "they" decided to take that away from us as well?

And if they have ... well, it's rather cool to be ruled by something that isn't a planet but is something else entirely, isn't it?

[Fluffmeister]

The inhabitants of Pluto are fighting back...

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/benchconference/2006/08/pluto_loses_designation_sues_i.html

:santasmil

[stella01904]

Sun in Taurus with Moon and Neptune conjunct in Scorpio says everything stays the same as they did it in the days when people assumed that the sun and planets orbited the earth. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Xander67]

hey, who says we have accept what "they" say is or isn't a planet anyway? Think outside the box, why don't we? And anyway, Aquarius can share Saturn and Uranus, so we've still got Mars, haven't we? Or have "they" decided to take that away from us as well?

And if they have ... well, it's rather cool to be ruled by something that isn't a planet but is something else entirely, isn't it?

we don't :apirate:

while I have a great deal of respect for AMAFA I chose not to affiliate with them because I disagree with thier creed.. According to the creed on thier website, astrologers MUST conform and abide by the rulings of the scientific community... Scince when have the Mysitcs and Sages let SCIENCE dictate thier teachings....

The ROsicrucians have taught things for hundreds of years before science "officially" agreed...

in the Sefer Yetzira, and other qaballistic texts, there are teachings in there that science does not teach, (yet) why? oh I can tell you why but we all know the answer to that....

POLOTICS and the Desire to keep humanity in darkness....
with that I shall humbly shut up on that topic:rant:

I shall continue to use my ephemeris and cast my calendars using the data with pluto...

I feel that for astrologers to adapt the rulings of a handfull of men, is a step backwards, and it is letting science dictate the ancient arts..

I see a split coming in the astrological community if a new astrology is created over this...

[Philosophia]

Cheers Fluffmeister!
That is very funny. I just read it outloud to some astrologer friends and our bellies are aching.
How humbling for poor Scorpio. Big bad Pluto turns out to be just a little bitty tiny weeny dwarf of a planet; a Plutoid. Shucks.
Meanwhile, Aquarians are still ruled by Saturn AND Uranus! The vast humility of Aquarians has been rewarded at last.
RedRose

Ha! I think you might forget that while we may have pluto, we also have mars and *maybe* Xena!
So, keep believing that you may be better...but remember Scorpios always have the last laugh! Nothing humbling about it, scorpios are the best! :p

[scorpiochick77]

Wow....okay so i just realized that there are more Scorpios on here than any other sign. Well, judging by the "What's your sign" thread started by Rye. Of course that doesn't include the other scorps that are quietly, secretly prowling around here. (You know US!:lol: ) Anyway since there are so many of us on here i'd like to hear your views on this subject. I can't speak for ALL scorps but i don't feel any less powerful just because of this situation with pluto. I'm still very proud to be a Scorpio no matter what planet "rules" it. If it's Mars then so be it...that's awesome too!:cheers:

[_Banbha_]

That's right!! *Points up to Scorpiochick and MinervaMind because I forgot to multiquote, lol*

I do not feel depleted in the least...as a matter of fact it is long overdue that Scorpio has not taken over the whole bloodly Kuiper belt. I heard someone say it on another thread. :whistle:

You cannot humble a Scorpio by demoting Pluto. I've known some pretty tough drawfs in my time. They have a low center of gravity and should not be underestimated...all of you crowing about this are just jealous. :razz:

Nervermind, we are used to it. And nobody ever said being a Scorpio was easy. :awilly: We are used to that too. :hehehehe:


:santasmil

[CheshireEyes]

*Wipes brow* wheew, glad I"m a Sag... hehehe

but seriously, as others have stated, Xander and Sheepiepoo in particular, it doesn't matter what the scientific community says. The mystical and the mundane do not always sync. (One of these days, I have this feeling they're gonna say Jupiter is actually a big giant cloud that has somehow gotten gravity and moons :hehehehe: )

You Scorpios keep your Pluto just as it was....:hugz:

[SammieAnn]

*Wipes brow* wheew, glad I"m a Sag... hehehe

but seriously, as others have stated, Xander and Sheepiepoo in particular, it doesn't matter what the scientific community says. The mystical and the mundane do not always sync. (One of these days, I have this feeling they're gonna say Jupiter is actually a big giant cloud that has somehow gotten gravity and moons :hehehehe: )

You Scorpios keep your Pluto just as it was....:hugz:

I agree. I am still glad I am a gemini though

[eldora_avalon]

One article refered to Pluto as an oddball object, which I thought was funny, being a Scorpio and being ruled by an oddball object, but I am twisted that way :heybaby:

[scorpiochick77]

That's right!! *Points up to Scorpiochick and MinervaMind because I forgot to multiquote, lol*

I do not feel depleted in the least...as a matter of fact it is long overdue that Scorpio has not taken over the whole bloodly Kuiper belt. I heard someone say it on another thread. :whistle:

You cannot humble a Scorpio by demoting Pluto. I've known some pretty tough drawfs in my time. They have a low center of gravity and should not be underestimated...all of you crowing about this are just jealous. :razz:

Nervermind, we are used to it. And nobody ever said being a Scorpio was easy. :awilly: We are used to that too. :hehehehe:


:santasmil
It's definitely not easy being Scorpio that's for sure.:hahugh: BUT i wouldn't have it any other way as we enjoy difficult tasks and plus we have the staying power. After all it's about death/ rebirth. Anything that doesn't kill us makes us stronger. You better believe that my friends!:)

[KEishin]

Wow....okay so i just realized that there are more Scorpios on here than any other sign.
Nope, you're just the most vocal! :lol:
Though Scorpio does tend to like the occult . . .

[scorpiochick77]

Nope, you're just the most vocal! :lol:
Though Scorpio does tend to like the occult . . .
I thought Leos and Geminis were the most vocal??:lol: You just can't get them to shut up!! No offense...they are the life of the party though no doubt. Oh and so are Saggys. (Gotta love their honesty too!) This just goes to show EVERY sign has their good/bad traits.

By the way...LOVE this thread KEishin.:)

[_Banbha_]

It's definitely not easy being Scorpio that's for sure.:hahugh: BUT i wouldn't have it any other way as we enjoy difficult tasks and plus we have the staying power. After all it's about death/ rebirth. Anything that doesn't kill us makes us stronger. You better believe that my friends!:)

You tell 'em scorpiochick! :hehehehe:

Nope, you're just the most vocal! :lol:

No, we just have the most to say...wait a minute...:lol:


:D

[RedRose]

Hi Xander67,

I completely agree that we need not grant authority to committees of "experts" but the facts remain that we now understand that in reality Pluto is very very little, and other things are popping up as bigger. Bigger is NOT better; truly.

Yet symbolically, Pluto is NO FUN. Yang-banging, raging, exploding, nasty and mean is the WAY of Pluto too much of the time. I am happy to turn down Pluto's volume, especially in this era of war. Obviously Pluto has never been a great hero of mine, not like say, Venus or the Sun, or Moon, or Mercury!

It is so easy to get a rise out of Scorpios, which is why Aquarians (in particular) can't help baiting you "plutonettes". What other sign in the zodiac NEEDS to assert that they are the sexiest and most cosmically powerful elite going? What other sign resists being humble so furiously and acts so upset over having their mysterious might even teased, much less challenged?

Leo take the rap for being egotistical, but try it; Leos LOVE to be called "humble", even if they aren't. Not Scorpios!!

"Scorpios are the coolest; we are, we are!"

My advice to Scorpios during this stressful time is to laugh, relax and understand that being "the most powerful, cosmic, darkest and sexiest thang" is not, in truth, that cool or cosmic. Follow Pluto's lead, and come into authentic self knowledge and simple reality!

RedRose

[_Banbha_]

Hi Xander67,

It is so easy to get a rise out of Scorpios, which is why Aquarians (in particular) can't help baiting you "plutonettes". What other sign in the zodiac NEEDS to assert that they are the sexiest and most cosmically powerful elite going? What other sign resists being humble so furiously and acts so upset over having their mysterious might even teased, much less challenged?

Leo take the rap for being egotistical, but try it; Leos LOVE to be called "humble", even if they aren't. Not Scorpios!!

"Scorpios are the coolest; we are, we are!"

My advice to Scorpios during this stressful time is to laugh, relax and understand that being "the most powerful, cosmic, darkest and sexiest thang" is not, in truth, that cool or cosmic. Follow Pluto's lead, and come into authentic self knowledge and simple reality!

RedRoseHmmm...somebody sounds a little jealous of the Scorpio. It's understandable. And maybe sounding a bit confusaled too....if you think any of this is actually being taken seriously here or this new designation changes anything....8O We're just venting and having a laugh. Sorry to disappoint! :hahugh:

[RedRose]

Hi WyldeDryad,

I don't have to be jealous because I am a Grand Fixed Cross and thus I have LOTS of Scorpio in me. Taurus as well.

Actually Taurus's are the sexiest sign in the zodiac. They are too busy making love to hang out on the internet discussing it like Scorpios do. :)

RedRose

PS - I am an elder crone here at MW astrology and stuck in my ways to boot. And trust me, I do not EVER discuss Sun-sign astrology seriously. Our Sun signs don't mean much. You must read the whole scope to understand anything at all. Thus I am JOKING anytime we engage in Sun sign discussion.

Then again, Scorpios are, seemingly, extremely easy to bait. And like Aquarians, Scorpios enjoy being "tested".

That said, I freely admit that I too am quite impressed with the Scorpio side of my own nature, which is why I am a witch!

[_Banbha_]

Hi WyldeDryad,

I don't have to be jealous because I am a Grand Fixed Cross and thus I have LOTS of Scorpio in me. Taurus as well.

Actually Taurus's are the sexiest sign in the zodiac. They are too busy making love to hang out on the internet discussing it like Scorpios do. :)

RedRose

PS - I am an elder crone here at MW astrology and stuck in my ways to boot. And trust me, I do not EVER discuss Sun-sign astrology seriously. Our Sun signs don't mean much. You must read the whole scope to understand anything at all. Thus I am JOKING anytime we engage in Sun sign discussion.

Then again, Scorpios are, seemingly, extremely easy to bait. And like Aquarians, Scorpios enjoy being "tested".

That said, I freely admit that I too am quite impressed with the Scorpio side of my own nature, which is why I am a witch!

I don't know Rosie, you sound a bit humorless to me; but that's okay. :hahugh:

Humor doesn't usually require such expanations...just saying.

It seems real important to you for Taurus to be sexiest against prevailing wisdom, and hey, more power to you! :cheers:

You sure like to spend time of time hanging out on the internet defending your theory yourself (I've read the Scorpio thread here). :nyah:



WD
Sun and Moon in Scorpio
Taurus Ascendant :p

[KEishin]

Actually Taurus's are the sexiest sign in the zodiac. They are too busy making love to hang out on the internet discussing it like Scorpios do. :)
I can second that . . . oh wait, was that TMI? . . . :bigredblu
*ahem*
Anyway . . . :lol:

[RedRose]

<<I don't know Rosie, you sound a bit humorless to me; but that's okay.>>

More humorless than Pluto? Not possible!

But you are right in that I am quite serious in asserting that having less Pluto energy on the planet right now is a GOOD thing. Promoting Ceres, Goddess Mother to be at Pluto's level is symbolically very good too. Astrology changes, always will, always has, and YES, I like these changes symbolically. The Pluto archetype brings much suffering with it. World Peace is good!

And whether I am funny or not, I find it humorous to read Scorpio readers mourning Pluto, wondering how this will effect their public image....OMG!

<<Humor doesn't usually require such expanations...just saying.>>

hmmmm.

<<It seems real important to you for Taurus to be sexiest against prevailing wisdom, and hey, more power to you!>>

No, which zodiac sign is sexiest is not important; truly.

Still, down through the eons there has been the astrological debate about whether Taurus's or Scorpios are sexier. Again, I do not think it is an important question, still as an Aquarian I naturally find Taurus's to be far sexier. Scorpios are fun to fight with and "cute when they get angry"; but not sexy for most Aquarians. Smoldering eyes that pierce the soul make Aquarians giggle; it has always been like that. That is why Scorpios and Aquarians are known for being the worst match ever.

<<You sure like to spend time of time hanging out on the internet defending your theory yourself (I've read the Scorpio thread here). >>

Aquarians invented the internet. All Air signs hang out on the internet too much, especially Geminis (who may not be the sexiest sign, but they are highly sexed at least). Glad you have read the Scorpio thread. It is a fun read for sure.


RedRose

[Fluffmeister]

Aquarians invented the internet.



Tim Berners-Lee, who invented the World Wide Web, is a Gemini with only one body (Chiron) in Aquarius.

Gemini sounds more like the Internet to me!

As for the invention of the Internet, that's not down to one person but was an invention of the US military back in the sixties.

[RedRose]

Hi Fluffmeister,

A Gemini with Chiron in Aquarius! Sounds about right for sure!

But that WWW part is pure Aquarius.

You have a scope for when Pluto was discovered? How are Pluto's transits? Could we have predicted this? I mean is Pluto having a hard Pluto transit right now?

And is it a coincidence that Pluto is retrograde at Galatic Center?

RedRose

[RedRose]

From:

http://www.librarising.com/cosmology/galactic.html

<<Pluto will be in exact conjuntion to the galactic center in 2006/2007 helping to bring in the vast transformative energies of the galactic center which are even now affecting the entire solar system in observable ways.>>

O Yeah! They got that right!

RedRose

[LostSheep]

helping to bring in the vast transformative energies of the galactic center
See? try to write off pluto if you like,but you can't get away from it!

LS,
taking it all way too seriously? You decide._wedgie_

[scorpiochick77]

<<I don't know Rosie, you sound a bit humorless to me; but that's okay.>>

More humorless than Pluto? Not possible!

But you are right in that I am quite serious in asserting that having less Pluto energy on the planet right now is a GOOD thing. Promoting Ceres, Goddess Mother to be at Pluto's level is symbolically very good too. Astrology changes, always will, always has, and YES, I like these changes symbolically. The Pluto archetype brings much suffering with it. World Peace is good!

And whether I am funny or not, I find it humorous to read Scorpio readers mourning Pluto, wondering how this will effect their public image....OMG!

<<Humor doesn't usually require such expanations...just saying.>>

hmmmm.

<<It seems real important to you for Taurus to be sexiest against prevailing wisdom, and hey, more power to you!>>

No, which zodiac sign is sexiest is not important; truly.

Still, down through the eons there has been the astrological debate about whether Taurus's or Scorpios are sexier. Again, I do not think it is an important question, still as an Aquarian I naturally find Taurus's to be far sexier. Scorpios are fun to fight with and "cute when they get angry"; but not sexy for most Aquarians. Smoldering eyes that pierce the soul make Aquarians giggle; it has always been like that. That is why Scorpios and Aquarians are known for being the worst match ever.

<<You sure like to spend time of time hanging out on the internet defending your theory yourself (I've read the Scorpio thread here). >>

Aquarians invented the internet. All Air signs hang out on the internet too much, especially Geminis (who may not be the sexiest sign, but they are highly sexed at least). Glad you have read the Scorpio thread. It is a fun read for sure.


RedRose
I'm not sure which scorpio on here is actually mourning the loss of pluto. All i know is that i'm not one of them. I personally don't care what planet rules what sign. I'm just proud to be a scorpio as i'm sure you're all proud to be whatever sign you are.:cheers:

[business voodoo]

what better rule for scorpio than the co-ruling by equal plutonians? pluto and charon were likely the rulers all along ... only now charon is coming to assume some of the burden, power and authority. i don't know about you, but scorpio has a dual nature to it ... some of which has been alluded to in this discussion.

so, why not, the ruling of pluto of charon ... both male and female ... which really feels scorpion in its purest form ... and why not? a dual planet representing one of the most intricately dual natured signs of our zodiac?

i don't know about you, but having two older scorpio sisters and two older scorpio sisters-in-law ... i can see this ruling duo for the sign of scorpio quite easily.

[RedRose]

I am enjoying reading the various predictions about what we might expect with Pluto conjunct Galactic Center. Seemingly no one considered the possibility that Pluto itself might become controversial and change. None the less, in hindsight, they got close:

http://www.daykeeperjournal.com/aarch06/0601jan/alex.shtml

...Pluto moves into conjunction with the Galactic Center for the first time in almost 250 years. This quarter-millennial summit between the outer planetary ambassador of our system and the very heart of the spiral galaxy of which we are a part always heralds important transformations in our cultural attitudes and the ways in which we interpret and incorporate ideas of religion, literature and science, or higher knowledge.


http://www.aquariuspapers.com/astrology/2006/05/pluto_is_conjun.html

I have read that the Galactic Center represents a "transpersonal link" and is said to play a role in technological inventiveness, though I have no specific correlations. Supposedly it is where "cosmos is speaking," and currently occupies a point somewhere around 26 Sagittarius 57 minutes. It’s a degree of originality, creativity, and unique self-expression. I'm sure that Pluto on that point between February and May 2006 is awakening seeds of something large, since that's what Pluto does.

http://www.starcycles.com/pages/plutoarticle.html

One of the potential conflicts of the Galactic Center (or Z) is that of the emotional ability to cope with the changes of technology.

[Aidron]

It boils down to this for me:

Mass of Astronomers: "Blah, blah, blah, strict adherence to definitions, blah, blah, blah no longer a planet, blah, blah, blah..."

Me: "Fickle, fickle, fickle. It's a planet in my eyes and always will be, keep your shabby definitions."


This certainly doesn't change anything for me currently, but I would be saddened to see a diminished presence of Pluto in astrology, or for Scorpio's rulership to revert back to Mars.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Why does it matter if it's a planet or not? Won't it still have the same astrological significance?

I mean, the moon isn't a planet. Neither is the sun. Doesn't make either of them any less important than, let's say, Jupiter.

[Aidron]

Why does it matter if it's a planet or not? Won't it still have the same astrological significance?

I mean, the moon isn't a planet. Neither is the sun. Doesn't make either of them any less important than, let's say, Jupiter.

No.

I consider anything within our solar system to have a great impact upon everything else in our solar system. Things outside our solar system... a minor influence.

Pluto didn't vanish, and as such it's influence is still going to be felt and acknowledged. If people want to classify it as a planet or not, let them exhaust themselves debating the semantics of it. I am personally enjoying the idea of this disrupting education everywhere.

"Sorry kids, I know we learned that Pluto was a planet last week, but this week it apparently isn't one. Kindly forget everything you learned."

[The High Queen of Faerie]

No.

I consider anything within our solar system to have a great impact upon everything else in our solar system. Things outside our solar system... a minor influence.

Then, in your opinion, has pluto lost its significance astrologically, or at least somewhat diminished? Why should its importance suddenly change based on its late designation of 'planet' being taken away? Isn't it still functioning in exactly the same way it always has? Pluto itself hasn't changed, and the way it effects us astrologically has not changed since the planet itself's activities and what-have-you haven't changed. Why should a label change all of this?

[Aidron]

Then, in your opinion, has pluto lost its significance astrologically, or at least somewhat diminished? Why should its importance suddenly change based on its late designation of 'planet' being taken away? Isn't it still functioning in exactly the same way it always has? Pluto itself hasn't changed, and the way it effects us astrologically has not changed since the planet itself's activities and what-have-you haven't changed. Why should a label change all of this?

It hasn't, not for me anyway. I can't do anything about it if astrology as a worldwide practice hereby excludes Pluto, which I doubt they would, or if they change Pluto in software and literature to no longer being a planet in order to coincide with this no decision... but for me, nothing has changed.

It is still every bit as influential as it was a few days ago before it lost its official planet status.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

It is still every bit as influential as it was a few days ago before it lost its official planet status.

Likewise.

[RedRose]

Hi The High Queen of Faerie and Aidron,

Astrology springs from the universal unconscious and it evolves. We each play our part in that evolution but it is a greater "We" who has the power, not me and thee. I experience that at its core astrology assumes that the Creation and the Creator are One and the same. Astrology can't work unless the Great Caster And Sourcer Of Scopes exists; or maybe the cosmos is a big machine? But no. Astrologically speaking, reality is a dream and symbols matter.

The fact that Pluto is smaller than we thought and that it has a partner, does change our perceptions of reality. What that MEANS we will see as we go along.

Chiron is a mere asteroid and it has not yet reached it's full circle since its discovery in 1977. Chiron has not yet experienced Chiron's own Chiron return. But I am in MY Chiron Return and I have a lot to say about what that is like. My experience is joining with many others and books are being written about what the experience of Chiron brings. It is believed that Chiron (rather the Chiron archetype) is teaching us.

So as Chiron entered Aquarius and came into the last square of his own R. Chiron Return AND R. Pluto conjuncted Galactic Center, while Saturn is opposite Neptune...all these BIG astrological happenings, happening all at once, has CHANGED the nature of Pluto.

Since Pluto rules the Dark Side, this will probably play out in a positive way - or so I am predicting.

We will see. We have a ring-side seat.

RedRose

[the monk]

I donk think that Pluto being a dwarf planet changes anything, but will probably make astrology schools study asteroids, which can only be a good thing.
Pluto will always make it's mark, in fact we only have to go back one day, to Wednesday 30th August 2006, in Al Hillah, Iraq (32*N28', 44*E25'), to see the devastating power of Pluto.
I quote from B.B.C. News report:- "At about 08:00am., on Wednesday, men were queuing at the recuitment centre in Al Hillah to apply for police jobs when a bomb exploded".
If you make up a chart you will find Pluto within one degree of the I.C., Mars within one degree of the Asc., and fixed star El-Nath (associated with weapons), in paran with the M.C.
Pluto was within one degree of the M.C. on the morning of 28th June 1914 in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina at 11:30am., when Arch-Duke Ferdinand was assassinated, which triggered World War One!
Yet i consider Pluto nowhere as destructive as a smaller asteroid called Juno!

[RedRose]

Greetings Monk!

Great to see you and read your thoughts again. What do you think about Charon?

RedRose

[Valkie]

You know the thing that I find slightly amusing about this whole situation....

Pluto/Scorpio is known for shaking things up, re-inventing themselves in extream ways. Not suddenly like Uranus, but still the shake up is there and always a long time coming.

What better way to re-invent yourself and throw everything on it's ear?!

Dwarf planet/KBO, what ever you want to call him... I personally don't think it matters. This whole thing is so Pluto like.

[Fluffmeister]

I donk think that Pluto being a dwarf planet changes anything, but will probably make astrology schools study asteroids, which can only be a good thing.
Pluto will always make it's mark,

Hear, hear, Monk! Good to see you back here :)

I've been having Pluto squaring my Sun for much this year, and it really hurts. I've been feeling battered and bruised emotionally since April, and I did briefly wonder if Pluto's downgrading by the astronomers might relieve the effects a little! However, last Tuesday after a particularly traumatic meal out with someone I'm obsessing about (Pluto stuff again), I skidded on the pavement and hit my head. It was a very bloody incident. The person in question kindly took me home and patched me up; my idea of a nice meal where we would discuss things in a civilised and dignified manner and get some closure ended instead in an embarrassing, humiliating and awkward finale, and the next day I turned up at the AAGB astrology conference feeling absolutely wretched - emotionally and physically - and looking as though I'd just been in a car crash or a serious fight (I told them I got into an argument about house systems 8O ) - a kind of very public humiliation really as I'm on the Council of the AAGB and was chairing a number of meetings, so I couldn't exactly hide away and my face was very much "out there" in the public eye, quite literally.

The accident happened when transiting Pluto was square natal Mars to within a minute. I find it quite synchronous that my external appearance now matches my internal emotional state - I now actually physically look the way I feel.

So I may not consider Pluto to be the ruler of Scorpio, but I don't underestimate his effects!

Edited to add - I checked the interpretation of Pluto square Mars according to Solar Fire. I don't usually like canned interpretations, but this one shocked me:

"You feel intensely and need to be able to control your emotions or you may attract violence. Learn to back off and realise that others do not feel as intensely as you do."

[the monk]

Hi Fluff,
I did leave a message on your answer phone about the up coming astrology meeting, i do have problems these days in a medical way, so i couldnt get to the meeting....sorry to hear about your Pluto problems, but we have to admit that so much research has been done by astrologers on Pluto, by it considered as being a planet, that now it leaves the door open for astrology to evolve....just like Pluto to make it painful to the higher level of astrological thought, and the major schools of astrology, who never studied the smaller objects that orbit the Sun!
As you know i slowly hone the slight bit of research that i can achieve in one life time into something credible, so for me, showing research on small objects that orbit the Sun is an area that has huge appeal for me in a mundane way!
Hi RedRose,
Sorry i havent got that far to comment on Charon/Pluto yet!

[SacredWithin]

I'm just simply not surprised that the debate over what our ruling planet is is still going on. It always seems to be some sort of controversy or mystery when it comes to us Scorpios. :D

[scorpiochick77]

I'm just simply not surprised that the debate over what our ruling planet is is still going on. It always seems to be some sort of controversy or mystery when it comes to us Scorpios. :D
You tell em' Sacred!:abanana:

[proxieme]

My only gripe: If Pluto *has* lost some of its oomph, why couldn't it've done so *before* it battered my natal t-square?
It sq. my Sun in Pi and Virgo Saturn, conj. my natal 2nd-House Neptune for frikkin' EVER, man, and let me tell you that it smarted.

[business voodoo]

My only gripe: If Pluto *has* lost some of its oomph, why couldn't it've done so *before* it battered my natal t-square?
It sq. my Sun in Pi and Virgo Saturn, conj. my natal 2nd-House Neptune for frikkin' EVER, man, and let me tell you that it smarted.

bear in mind that pluto has lost nothing, especially its 'oomph' ... plutonian ... big bang, small package. the only thing the reclassification (note, it is NOT a demotion or diminishment by any stretch of anyone's imagination unless that imagination is tempered with prejudice and preconceived notions that 'dwarfs' are any less human), has done is recategorized and created a new definition. "Plutonian" is now an entire class of solar bodies that means nothing vis-a-vis "planet" in terms of importance ... again, unless you are socialized and brainwashed to think 'smaller' is 'less than' ... it is not necessarily, but we have definitely been programmed to think that way.

pluto is as potent and powerful as it always was ... it has never changed ... some people look as pluto as 'god of the underworld' as being a lesser god, but in reality, while the other gods divied up the 'heavens', pluto was the ruler of the ENTIRE underworld ... similar to how neptune was ruler of the entire sea (and that's also just a part of the 'above' world) ... the underworld is as large as and equal to the heavens, so his 'territory' while largely unseen, underrated and underappreciated, was way more vast than that of any one ruler in the space 'above'. and given the axiom that 'so as below, so as above' the power of the ruler of all of the below has much more 'oomph' than any of the singular 'above' gods could ever imagine.

also, bear in mind, that pluto was never and will never be acting 'alone' ... charon has always been there ... the debate over pluto when astrologers first began to integrate the new planet always had two distinct schools of thought as to the realm of pluto ... there has always been two glyphs recognized for pluto ... there's always been double. we will start learning more about the 'other' half of pluto that was represented by the "minerva" camp back in the 50s and 60s, as our discussion continues. beyond transformation, pluto is the source and planet(s) of true wisdom ... that which comes after knowledge ... whiche was represented by 'minerva' or now as we have named the co-planet 'charon'.

i look at it this way ... two atom bombs versus one conventional bombs ... which is more destructive? i think hiroshima has taught us that a small package means little when its plutonian in nature!

[KEishin]

My only gripe: If Pluto *has* lost some of its oomph, why couldn't it've done so *before* it battered my natal t-square?
It sq. my Sun in Pi and Virgo Saturn, conj. my natal 2nd-House Neptune for frikkin' EVER, man, and let me tell you that it smarted.
As was said, Pluto is still the sometimes annoyingly impassive and brutally honest fellow he always was. (Mr. Dark and Handsome, with a wicked sense of humor). He just doesn't have planet status, and some say he no longer rules Scorpio. Pluto is still small but mighty. Size matters not, said Yoda.

[the monk]

The kuyper Belt that Pluto sits in will show many dwarf planets in the next few years, many will be bigger than Pluto, which means nothing.
We have studied the effect of Pluto and know it is very powerful, so what does that say about a number of other small asteroid objects?
hell i have tons of charts like the one on attachment, with details...this is just one i found a few days ago with Pluto on the M.C.!

[Astara Seague]

Im so lost.. Im still searching to find the perfect spot for us Scorpios we really need a place
anyone renting?:lol:

[Shatril]

I agree with Monk. Just because we didn't know anything about these other bodies does not mean that they did not have influence in the charts. Their characteristics could easily explain some of the birth charts that just don't quite fit the person. They could easily be influence heavily by other bodies that are not yet known, and once their influence is know, the chart then makes perfect sense. That is just my two cents/pence worth.

Shatril

[Autumn]

So is there any new word on this subject? Any mass stampede to change the contents of canned interpretations? Any rush on old astrology texts?

[~Owl~]

:dodges the rotten vegetables:

So I'd love to hear from some Scorpio Suns out there. What do you think of this?

*Stretches the crossbow full of shishkabobbed tomotoes, turnips, artichokes, and whatever else she can find in the wastebasket-ooh! a half eaten apple!!-as far as it... will... go..., and aims, ever so precisly at K's head*


I'll tell her what I think...


And after this...

I'll send her my Natal chart: Scorpio: Sun, Mercury, Venus, Neptune, ALL in my 3rd House, Aries Moon, in my 8th House, Pluto in my 1st House, Mars conjunct my ASC- within a 3 degree applying orb, at that...shall I continue?:deviltail

I'm sure that beyond the obvious, KEishin can see between the lines, and connect the dots, and figure out the correlations. She knows what I'm talking about...{evil grin}


Now, if you'll excuse me, I have FoxFae's chart to work on. She wants a Natal, with transits, in a PM. I'm going to have to converse with her a little more, esp. after going over her Natal, about her Transit Chart...such as what week we are looking at.

Again, for those reading, esp. other Scorpions like me, ;), I'm a professional astrologer, have been practicing for over 15 years, have been considering going for my AMAFA, (initial certification through the AFA{American Fed. of Astrologers), but never thought it necessary until recently..)

Gah!~I'm digressing again...any, where was I? Oh yeah...
So, since I know how much we Scorpions LOVE having our palms read, as well as our Tarot cards, and I Ching...(I'm also a Palmistry adept, as well as an adept in Tarot, and I Ching...been doing all 4, including Astrology for over 20 years now...and Psychometry, though I'd have to have something physically of yours that you wear constantly, that's very personal to you, to get a reading...that's what psychometry is...been doing that for over 20 as well...God, I'm getting old...~sigh~
GAH!!! There I go again...sound like I'm writing out a damn resume! ;)


ANYWAY!!!

I can do Natal, Transits, Synastry/Composite (Relationship charts), Progressions, with or without interpretations, have my own professional software program, MUCH better then...um, some internet services you have on the 'Net...I'll leave it at that...

It's Matrix Professional Software, used and licensed for personal AND commercial use, the same kind that Llewellen uses.
It does EVERYTHING. 100% accurate, guarenteed.

I can do Geocentric/Heliocentric, Tropical/Sidreal Zodiac, ALL the House Systems: Placidus, Koch, Equal, Meridian, etc, etc...

My prefs:

Geocentric, Tropical, Placidus (I prefer Koch Houses myself, but that's just because I was taught how to draw Koch Houses by hand, along with everything else (uggh), but Placidus is all the rage, so...) plus it IS easier to hand cast and correct if necessary, esp. if you have intercepted signs and hidden aspects...never mind, K' knows what I'm talking about. I'm just babbling again.Now I REALLY have to stop jabbering away and get to work on Fox's chart.

(With Pluto and Mars where they are at, and the position they're in, you think it's any wonder that I've had...FIVE "near-death"( I mean VERY near death) experiences in my life? And I'm talking CLOSE.

{Anyone interested in hearing them? Someone tell me where to post 'em, and/or I'll PM whoever's interested. Believe me, they were INTENSE}

OK...enough. I gotta get to work.

[~Owl~]

bear in mind that pluto has lost nothing, especially its 'oomph' ... plutonian ... big bang, small package. the only thing the reclassification (note, it is NOT a demotion or diminishment by any stretch of anyone's imagination unless that imagination is tempered with prejudice and preconceived notions that 'dwarfs' are any less human), has done is recategorized and created a new definition. "Plutonian" is now an entire class of solar bodies that means nothing vis-a-vis "planet" in terms of importance ... again, unless you are socialized and brainwashed to think 'smaller' is 'less than' ... it is not necessarily, but we have definitely been programmed to think that way.

pluto is as potent and powerful as it always was ... it has never changed ... some people look as pluto as 'god of the underworld' as being a lesser god, but in reality, while the other gods divied up the 'heavens', pluto was the ruler of the ENTIRE underworld ... similar to how neptune was ruler of the entire sea (and that's also just a part of the 'above' world) ... the underworld is as large as and equal to the heavens, so his 'territory' while largely unseen, underrated and underappreciated, was way more vast than that of any one ruler in the space 'above'. and given the axiom that 'so as below, so as above' the power of the ruler of all of the below has much more 'oomph' than any of the singular 'above' gods could ever imagine.

also, bear in mind, that pluto was never and will never be acting 'alone' ... charon has always been there ... the debate over pluto when astrologers first began to integrate the new planet always had two distinct schools of thought as to the realm of pluto ... there has always been two glyphs recognized for pluto ... there's always been double. we will start learning more about the 'other' half of pluto that was represented by the "minerva" camp back in the 50s and 60s, as our discussion continues. beyond transformation, pluto is the source and planet(s) of true wisdom ... that which comes after knowledge ... whiche was represented by 'minerva' or now as we have named the co-planet 'charon'.

i look at it this way ... two atom bombs versus one conventional bombs ... which is more destructive? i think hiroshima has taught us that a small package means little when its plutonian in nature!

Since I onlyread KEishin's post at the top so far, I TOTALLY agree with this post. TOTALLY. If Pluto is a "dwarf" whatever now, then it always has been.

So why has it had, and HAS so much catastrophic influence now, as it ALWAYS has?'

HMMMM???

[KEishin]

So why has it had, and HAS so much catastrophic influence now, as it ALWAYS has?'
IMNSHO, Pluto is small . . . but mighty.

[Kadynas]

LOL Those that have used Pluto will continue to use Pluto, those who didn't before will contnue to ignore him and use Mars as the traditional ruler of Scorpio.

There's already division in the astrological community along "Ancient vs. Modern" lines and the debates can get quite intense! :lol: Nowadays I kinda straddle the line between the two, trying to have the best of both worlds. (Though at this point both sides see me as somewhat of a heretic! LOL)

I've since learned to distinguish between the concepts of "rulership" and "affinity"... with the recent work of Project Hindsight and other traditional astrologers, it's becoming clear that rulership in astrology had absolutely nothing to do with affinity. Thus no matter how much Pluto & Scorpio seem like a matching set, it doesn't make Pluto a ruler because rulership isn't about "this planet is the most like this sign." Rulership actually has more to do with determining the strength of a planet, and plays into the complex network of decans and bounds, etc. You can't "add" a new ruler without throwing off the whole system.

I'll always consider Pluto to be of high importance, and none of this changes the themes I feel he brings to a chart. He just doesn't get to rule a sign IMO. ;)