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mato
February 22nd, 2002, 02:46 AM
I just realized that I have been worshipping a gay God! I wonder why I didnt realize it earlier, he is the god of art music dance love and he even carries a staff with a human heart impailed on it! I mean come on can you think of anything more gay?! He is the patron of the PARTY and a summer diety! Come one it is a match made in heaven (or some were...:lol: [note:the other smilie can be considered crude in this context :D]) Prince of Flowers! Oh man I cant believe that! Ah well the perfect compliment to Guadalupe. Now if only guadalupe were a lesbian I could make my own gay religion... hmmm... imaculate conseption you say...:smoke: well my job is done!

Seriously how could i not see it?! It was right infront of me the whole time, I mean how many gods do you meet at raves any way?! PARTY!!! As a religious rite! That is so cool! Green man meet party music madona and art! hahahaha! or perhaps Muahahaha!!!

Huh, well come to think of it... *wanders off lost (found?) in thought*

MistOfTheSea86
February 22nd, 2002, 03:02 AM
how silly:)

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 03:22 AM
Ok serious parts need be highlighted...

Worshiping gay god...
didnt realize it (yes I am that dense...)...
suprised at the like attracting like seen in action...
GLAAD to have finally hooked up with Gay Divinity!
<joke>looking for hearts in all the wrong places (:lol: )
Cant us :o without blushing...</joke>
and a whole new field has opened up/been revieled...

Kahlan
February 22nd, 2002, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the highlights..hard to tell when I the joke and ends and the truth begins...cool though about finding a gay god!

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 01:14 PM
And which God is that again?

Illuminatus
February 22nd, 2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by mato
I just realized that I have been worshipping a gay God! I wonder why I didnt realize it earlier, he is the god of art music dance love and he even carries a staff with a human heart impailed on it! I mean come on can you think of anything more gay?! He is the patron of the PARTY and a summer diety! Come one it is a match made in heaven (or some were...:lol: [note:the other smilie can be considered crude in this context :D]) Prince of Flowers! Oh man I cant believe that!

Music, dance, love, impaled organs.. I'm straight and I like all those things too. Though Prince of Flowers does sort of push the envelope... Now if his staff were a gigantic phallus, then you're definitely onto something!

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 02:49 PM
Danustouch~
His name is Xochipilli aka Macuilxochitl.

Kahlan~
I think I will have to start using those joke markers more often, sorry I was hypped up on coffee last night...

Ill~
He is a fertility god, so maybe it is...

Twilight
February 22nd, 2002, 03:40 PM
though gays are not notoriously fertile ...

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 03:45 PM
I'm sure there are lots of Gods who you could look at and say.."this God is Gay" ..or what have you. The truth is..I don't think of Deities in terms of their sexual preference.

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 03:50 PM
I was thinking that. Doesn't deity transcend sexuality - ie. polarity, equality, archetypal, etc. ? Ok maybe only in my world :)

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 04:36 PM
I've always thought so, Myst. To assume anything other than that..IMO...is to place them in a really confining box, and take away some of the wonder of it all. But..that's just me.

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 04:36 PM
Twilight~
Through secondary action is he fertile. As a rain god it is his job to protect the crops and keep the wind god locked away, or rather 'busy' so that he does not destroy the crops. Through the function of warden is he a fertility god.

Danustouch~
Eh well there is so much for me to learn and at a time when there is no mention of sexuality in religion (or worse passing referances to hetero sexual unions that imply that every one is heterosexual or should be, those who arent are just out of luck...) and spirituality that it Is important to me. The fact that I was worshipping a gay god before I even realized it was just a supprise to me. I have been searching for 'gay' gods and I was happily supprised to find that I was worshipping one.

Myst~
Not always, as with me there are verying degrees of deity from the polar extreems to the neuter center. Personally I like Gods with a little sexuality in them, I dont like YAWEH because it is a neuter inhuman creature, I dont like the wiccan God and Goddess because they are so... vanilla :lol:. Aphrodite (cant spell...) is a sex goddess not above indulging in a little bit of everything. Only latter was she divided into male and female parts, kinky... Xochiquetzal, (a flower goddess from an interesting myth on how a deity can be fertile without heterosexual intercourse, as there are more than one way to be fertile [to skin a cat :rotfl:, I will have to post the myth for you all to get that! Oh man I wish this werent a family site right about now!]) is a sex goddess of great beauty but she never settles down and was the inventress of 'casual' sex, as well as bisexual/multisexual. I use her as an avatar of Guadalupe (flower goddess have to stick together!) as she helps to reclaim the older Guadalupe/Tonitzin/Coatlicue practices. It is through sexuality that I can better understand the diety I am contacting/worshipping. I feel that sexuality is a vital part of not only the Gods but also religion spritituality and all that good stuff. There are all sorts of hetero sexual images and divine hetero unions out there that to me it is nice and important to see that there are also divine homo sexual unions (that dont occur through mysterious drownings...;)). When sexuality is so much a part of life I expect it to be a part of religion spirituality and be reflected in the Gods.

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by mato
I dont like the wiccan God and Goddess because they are so... vanilla :lol:. Aphrodite (cant spell...) is a sex goddess not above indulging in a little bit of everything. Only latter was she divided into male and female parts, kinky...

Who are the Wiccan God and Goddess..?

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 04:49 PM
Funny..I personally think that sexuality is "A" part of life. Not the most important one, or even as important as many people make it out to be.

By your logic, people who can't have sex due to a physical handicap, can't find anything in any known Gods and Goddesses to identify with, unless they find a Neutered God or Goddess.

The point is....Sex is a part of life. It shouldn't be frowned upon, it should be celebrated..yes. But..ALL whatever God or Goddess you call upon...whatever deity form you call upon...for celebratory purposes (i mean..i wouldn't say that a destroyer god would be the appropriate one to call on for something like that)..they aknowledge "all acts" of love and pleasure, and all acts of humanity..as sacred. ALL expressions of love, are beautiful, and celebrated by the Gods and Goddesses. They are blind to your sexuality..as in WHO you chose to love. At least, IMO. So...if they love Gays, and Straights equally, then I just choose to return the favor, and say..it doesn't matter to me what sexuality these gods and goddesses are...I'll celebrate them anyway.

I think far too much emphasis is placed on sexuality. Is it a bad, dirty thing? No. Is it one of the most important things about religion, or life? Nope. Is it functional, ...ummm..yeah.

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 04:52 PM
Yup. Any act of love is a celebration of God, Goddess, unity, etc. To me sex is about as sacred as doing a website, at least sex that I'm not having to procreate. Maybe that kind of sex parallels to a gay couple adopting and raising a baby.

To me everything I do is a joyous celebration of life.

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 04:53 PM
Yeah..btw..Mato. I know many Wiccans who worship aphrodite.

I also know many dianic wiccans...who are Lesbian. They don't necessarily feel the need to make their Goddess out to be a lesbian though.

And there is no ONE God or ONE Goddess or even a limited number of them for Wiccans to choose from. We get to worship whoever the heck we damn well please. And let me tell you...i find that "Vanilla" comment, rather offensive, to say the least.

Cernunnos..is DEFINITELY not someone I would call Vanilla. The wild stag of the forest.

Or Pan.

And Diana? Vanilla????? Don't know where you get THAT from.

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 04:55 PM
yeah Hekate.. she's very vanilla. The Dark Lord of the Hunt... lol. how about Kali?

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 04:58 PM
How about Shiva/Shakti ??? heheh.

Haedis
February 22nd, 2002, 05:07 PM
:rotfl: Yeah I've always envisioned Kali to be as docile as a kitten.

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 05:09 PM
Yeah, *I* always imagine her in fuzzy flannel pyjamas lounging with kittens, munching on chocolates and saying "hello dahhhhling" and "kisses!!"

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 05:19 PM
Yes...bon bons for kali...lmao.

Lavender
February 22nd, 2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Haedis
:rotfl: Yeah I've always envisioned Kali to be as docile as a kitten.

:lol:

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by mato
Through secondary action is he fertile. As a rain god it is his job to protect the crops and keep the wind god locked away, or rather 'busy' so that he does not destroy the crops. Through the function of warden is he a fertility god.

See to me that's protection, not fertility, if he's keeping someone else from destroying crops. And often rain comes with wind, rather then the two of them being apart, so I would think the sun would protect the crops and be fertile. That's just my thinking.

As far as Dianics etc. to me Gods (like humans) have both masculine and feminine traits and habits, so whether they're straight or gay either way they show us that masculinity and femininity are equally important for everyone and are a part of everyone.

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 05:41 PM
eh well your opinion, IMO they are vanilla, it was not intended as a blast at your gods just my opinion of what I have seen. Sorry if you find that offensive. Ya know when your world was created by a divine threesum it kind of casts a shadow over the rest of your existance. I am trying to restrain myself as my opinions are offensive to you so I will leave the rest of that to silence (another divine rite!).


I dont feel the need to make my gods gay I just saw that one of them was and I enjoy having a gay god. I also see that there is a need for gay spiritual role models, and that gay gods have suffered the same fate as gay men/womyn supression even in the neo-pagan community. As if they were some sort of venereal disease (been watching too many commercials...)

Sex is what made this world sex is what makes this world over again every gd second, sex is what drives human ambision for growth and sex is what is behind every action and every word ever spoken in the history of man kind! Why then is it not The most important part of existance?! It is what created science technology astroloygy the occult art literature music down to the smallest detail of every ones life is an underlying sexual motive! I knew this would happen, once I was a Jungian in a Fraudian areana now I am a Fraudian in a Jungian... In short The whole world is an attempt to get laid.
Even without working overtly sexual organs so long as a human being is alive and conscious they are subject to the sexual pull. there is more than one way to have sex, there is far more than one way to have sex, only recently has this culture forgotten that.
Sex is sacred but so is breathing, so is life in general. Living is a sacred act of itself.

And hahaha you might joke but to me kali has alway been wearing those pj's (well so much for holding my tongue!)

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 05:44 PM
You see you think gay gods have been "oppressed" whereas no one else here cares about the gods' sexuality... so how is that oppression? Isn't that instead us showing that sexuality is not a determining factor in what we see as Gods? I would think that's encouraging freedom of sexual orientation, rather then the opposite.

And as I recall you're about 17? So yes, sexuality could be the thing that turns your world 'round. However, for the rest of us...

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Myst
See to me that's protection, not fertility, if he's keeping someone else from destroying crops. And often rain comes with wind, rather then the two of them being apart, so I would think the sun would protect the crops and be fertile. That's just my thinking.

Hence the union and fertility, through the homosexual union with whatever wind god you choose (and there are about as many of those as there are rain gods...) he is a fertility god. The sun is a creature of death and destruction as much of life and growth so it doesnt much care one way or the other.

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Myst
You see you think gay gods have been "oppressed" whereas no one else here cares about the gods' sexuality... so how is that oppression? Isn't that instead us showing that sexuality is not a determining factor in what we see as Gods? I would think that's encouraging freedom of sexual orientation, rather then the opposite.

And as I recall you're about 17? So yes, sexuality probably is the thing that turns your world 'round. However, for the rest of us...

For the rest of you it is the same deal, no different. You have just been socialized to think differently. Now as for the oppression that is subtle, it is all about the divine union until it involves a different sort of divine union. It is all about sex until it is about homosexuality. It is simply put, ignored or covered up,"Arent gods above sexuality?" Yet it is obvious that even a glance at the religion will show that they are not!

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by mato
For the rest of you it is the same deal, no different. You have just been socialized to think differently. Now as for the oppression that is subtle, it is all about the divine union until it involves a different sort of divine union. It is all about sex until it is about homosexuality. It is simply put, ignored or covered up,"Arent gods above sexuality?" Yet it is obvious that even a glance at the religion will show that they are not!

Keep thinking you know everything about what everyone else is motivated by and what Gods we all worship.

It's a sure way to end up alone.

Illuminatus
February 22nd, 2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by mato
I dont like YAWEH because it is a neuter inhuman creature,

Yaweh inhuman? Certainly. Neuter? No. He is always referred to with the male pronoun in the bible, and genesis specifically describes man as being made in his image, and woman being something entirely different. To quote that Godsmack song, God Is A Man.

I edited my post to add that you have no idea what you are talking about Mato... gay gods have been oppressed by straight gods? That's just silly-talk. You can decide one of your dieties is gay till you're red in the face, but, sorry to say, he's not.

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 06:37 PM
No I said that gay gods are denied by straight worshippers and even demonized in modern times by the same people. Nowere did I state that Straight Gods did jack sh*t to Gay Gods, but rather the people treat their divinity as they treat the people they repersent, gay gods were shuned by man because gay people were. And thanks so much for your support :rolleyes: Neuter yes, as he is simply a creator and the male pronoun means nothing as the hebrew language had no female pronoun that was used at that early (say 3000 years ago, dont know about now...). It also says We and Us and Them. Implying multiple personalities on Yaweh's part in creation. Yes early on he did create a 'feminine' personality that was to manifest through the Tora (damn it I cant spell today) as his law. Hence not only is he considered male but to speak with a feminine voice heard through a set of divine laws in need of interpritation even back then. He Speacks later as a feminine Wisdom, which was even later broken off to form a secondary creature called Wisdom. This is accain to the Queen of Heaven which is mentioned early on to anger him in the hebrew preferance to this creation over him. It was said that they made cakes and wine in celebration of the Queen of Heaven to anger God to wrath and force him to take action. I see this as their unbalancing the creature to force a result through 'magic' no more personal than a flood (oops he did that too didnt he...). See it is just easier to refer to it as a he. There is no word appropriate for it in this language.

Myst No! You are a living human being and thus you are subject to the rule of sex in your life from the moment you are born to the moment you die and beyond as religion dictates how you are to be disposed of, religion is an invention of man and all of man's actions are sex drived. It has nothing to do with any particular religious affiliation, Christian Muslim Jew Pagan or whatever no mater, we are all ruled by SEX!

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Myst
Keep thinking you know everything about what everyone else is motivated by and what Gods we all worship.

It's a sure way to end up alone.

<joke>Na I think I am more likely to end up alone because of my divine motivation to devour my enemy's hearts. :D</joke>

edit: the one time I forget the joke thingies and it is something like this, figures... :devil:

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by mato
He speacks later as a feminine Wisdom, which was even later broken off to form a secondary creature called Wisdom.
...
to be disposed of, religion is an invention of man and all of man's actions are sex drived.

The whole Hebrew discussion is going on (in full swing) as far as male/female etc. in Theology & Philosophy - I think you'll find that interesting.

And no, not all actions are sex drived. Just because you think so doesn't make it so. Just because you think all *your* actions are sex driven doesn't mean everyone else's are. We all have our own motivations, beliefs, and lives. You might have better luck with communicating if you didn't tell people what they thought, worshipped, or lived for.

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 07:10 PM
<joke> ok were did the lines of communication break down, I am god, I claimed the throne a few months ago, whatever I say is law. Did you not get the memo?</joke>

I am sorry if you feel that I was telling people what they believe, however I see were you got that so I should add IMO to the whole damned thing, however IMO I am right and you are wrong. lol that doesnt make it sound much better, well you cant stop a flood <joke>[refer to above joke]were am I going to find a drunk willing to build me a boat?!</joke>

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 07:20 PM
I know everything you say is in your opinion, hon. But "in my opinion the entire world is motivated by sex, and even tho you say you aren't you are"... lol

I dunno, just thinking aloud :)

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 07:31 PM
Even though you think you are immune to sexual drives you are not. What is so hard to accept about that? IMO it is dillusion/deniel to think otherwise inviting only dissappointment and deseastor. What 20 some years of socialization is supposed to wipe away all those hundreds of millions of years of evolution, that spells the end of humanity right there, extinction by socialization (another one of my 'opinions'). Extinction by morality lol

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 07:37 PM
Immune to sexual drives?

There's a huge area of grey between "immune to sexual drives" and "the world in its entirety is motivated by someone's desire to get laid" lol

mato
February 22nd, 2002, 07:43 PM
No IMO there isnt. There is no gray (nor black or white) just two opinions. Either 1) sex does not effect your thinking and descision making 24/7 or 2) sex is the force for which the world turns, all men are powerless against her will and all women are equally subject to her word/law. No grey just two opinions.

Myst
February 22nd, 2002, 07:46 PM
Your world is black and white too?

Just curious


2) sex is the force for which the world turns, all men are powerless against her will and all women are equally subject to her word/law.

and gays/bi's...?

Danustouch
February 22nd, 2002, 10:04 PM
Ugh..you know what Mato..I think what we are reacting to here, is your arrogance. Oh yes..Arrogance. First of all..you seem to portray Homosexuality not only as an Equally Valid sexual choice..but as a SUPERIOR sexual choice. By claiming that our Gods/Goddesses are Vanilla to you.

And yet..if any one of us were to say that YOUR Gods are WIERD to us..(which we won't..because most of us do NOT feel that way), You'd be flying off the handle. The point is..you shouldn't be demeaning, limiting, boxing ANYONES Gods or Goddesses. You can say..."That path doesn't appeal to me because of it's lack of homosexual role models. Therefore, I feel I cannot identify with it, it doesn't excite me.". BUT to claim they are "Vanilla" is almost a reverse bashing..IMO.

Secondly...you assume that ALL of mankind is motivated by sexuality. That is YOUR opinion. That is how YOUR world operates. But...obviosly ..that is not so. It is an individual preference. Obviosly, the Dalai Lama is not primarily motivated by the need to spread his seed. Obviosly, many Priests, Nuns and Holymen, are not. How about the neutered people of the world? I have a good friend, who had his testicals removed for medical reasons. He is no longer motivated by the urge to mate. He is no longer interested in finding "Love" or "Sex" or reproducing. And yet, he leads a full and happy life. And is intensely spiritual. How about the many cultures in which the priests and holyman purposely were neutered? MOST of us, are happy with sexuality being "An" important element of who we are, and what motivates us (i.e. Human instinct to reproduce, mate, etc). However, it is NOT true for everyone, and thus you cannot make the blanket statement that that is how the world operates. This happens to be YOUR best guess..YOUR theory, of what makes the world go 'round. But that does not make it a reality. Only a theory. NOT a fact. And you seem to propose ALL of your theories, are fact.

It is irksome, tiresome, and just plain annoying.

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 02:00 AM
When and were did I present homosexuaity as a superior choice? Curious as that was not my intent.


Obviosly, the Dalai Lama is not primarily motivated by the need to spread his seed. Obviosly, many Priests, Nuns and Holymen, are not. How about the neutered people of the world?
Does feminine sexuality cease to be after the organs will no longer produce offspring? Does someone become inhuman when they enter a religious vocation? Do men stop looking once they settle down? Ever spend time in a nursing home? If not than you wont get my point, ask a nurse. Ever been ogled by a dirty old man who cant do what he is thinking about? Why do you think the number of 'divine' births is effected by military action, or that AIDS is some what relevent to a priest's life today? The Dalai Lama is a man like any other, I fail to see the defining factor that makes him above sexual influence. Nuns monks priests and priestesses are all HUMAN, none of them are above sex. Religion is a creation of sexual demand the desire to be fertile creating the first religions, and to this day people are still seeking fertility through religion, priests want to contribute and produce something. Nuns devote their life to the service of god and other people, through that service they are fertile. It is their desire to live and be fruitful that drives them, this is a natural evolution and deversion of the sex drive then harrnessed to serve a function in their new celebate lives. Simmilarly for every other profession you can think of. It is all about sex. Sex is not only the base of all life and society as we know it but also the axis of and the world itself. Sex is everything.

Myst~
I fail to see your question, what about gay and bi people? Homo bi and tran sexuality is a natural extension and development of sexuality. It serves a social function and produces new means for fertility (and thus invention) to be expressed.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by mato
Religion is a creation of sexual demand the desire to be fertile creating the first religions, and to this day people are still seeking fertility through religion, priests want to contribute and produce something. Nuns devote their life to the service of god and other people, through that service they are fertile.

And they don't have sex. Therefore they aren't motivated by sex. You haven't disproved her point at all.


Originally posted by mato
I fail to see your question, what about gay and bi people?

Read what I quoted again - "all men are powerless against her will and all women are equally subject to her word/law. " Why is everyone obsessed with "her word/law"?

Lavender
February 23rd, 2002, 02:20 AM
I'm not sure I understand your point, Mato. Are you confusing sex with fertility & creation? They're two separate things.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 02:24 AM
Even if he means fertility.. my spiritual path is motivated by my desire to learn and grow - it has nothing to do with sex or fertility. The very thought that spirituality is based on one act in life is appalling.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by mato
I fail to see your question, what about gay and bi people? Homo bi and tran sexuality is a natural extension and development of sexuality. It serves a social function and produces new means for fertility (and thus invention) to be expressed.

btw you've neatly touched on Danustouch's point about your acting as tho homo/bisexuality is superior to heterosexuality. Here you state that it's a "natural extension and development of sexuality" which to some could mean that it its unnatural to be hetero, or that people who are straight ignore the "development" of their sexuality. As far as social function and new means of fertility.. again it sounds as though you're saying homo/bi is superior, or at least that you feel the need to justify their validity which no one is questioning.

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 03:08 AM
Myst~
That was not my intent, I was un aware that we were working under the debate teams rules here, and I dont like them so I dont use them.
They (religious celebate people) are motivated by sex but they channel that into other forms (or not there are many scandles, and often accepted behavior, on the frustration from failed channeling is taken out on innocent victims) to achieve the secondary goal of fertility. It is sex that drives them, and it is a secondary form of sex that they express intellectual sex spiritual sex [xtc religious fanatisism whatever you want to call it] socially accepted outlets such as poetry and literature...

Nature has embedded such into all sexual creatures it has been the basis for all growth and development. The most complex organ ever created, the human brain, is a sexual organ, it's primary goal is to get into some one else's pants, it's secondary goal is survival. Doesnt make sense, of course not, but ask a guy "would you rather have sex or eat/drink/sleep?" and it will hands down be have sex.


btw you've neatly touched on Danustouch's point about your acting as tho homo/bisexuality is superior to heterosexuality. Here you state that it's a "natural extension and development of sexuality" which to some could mean that it its unnatural to be hetero, or that people who are straight ignore the "development" of their sexuality. As far as social function and new means of fertility.. again it sounds as though you're saying homo/bi is superior, or at least that you feel the need to justify their validity which no one is questioning.

I was attempting to answer your sudo question with what little I had. I thought that from the quote you provided and your vague "Just curious... and gays/bi's?" As I had included them in with the rest of mankind and I didnt think that they/we needed special mention, however your question(ish) got me thinking that so far no one has tried to include those two catagories in a unified form (in this continent) before. In that context that is what I was trying to do. How is that expressing superiority over anything? By that thinking the bird is superior to the alligator because it was a more developed form derived from a common ancestor. Apples and oranges. <insert joke here>

wild child~
no I am not, fertility and creation are secondary to sex just ask any teen father,"Did you want a child?" and you will get the same response. "No I just wanted to get laid." (or else they are lying to secure future sexual possibilities) It is the deasire to be the best possible mate that fuels the world, not the desire to create, that is secondary.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 03:28 AM
The most complex organ ever created, the human brain, is a sexual organ, it's primary goal is to get into some one else's pants, it's secondary goal is survival. Doesnt make sense, of course not, but ask a guy "would you rather have sex or eat/drink/sleep?" and it will hands down be have sex.

My primary goal isn't sex, I don't know about yours.

Is everyone a guy? Does every guy choose sex over eating or sleeping (and keep in mind, I say this with my own mate fast asleep in the next room)?

Sex is sex. It's a physical act. Anything else you're going on about is not sex. Spirituality, growth, deities, etc. but it isn't sex.


As I had included them in with the rest of mankind and I didnt think that they/we needed special mention
...
How is that expressing superiority over anything?

Read what I said again. I explained what I think is expressing superiority and why.


no I am not, fertility and creation are secondary to sex just ask any teen father,"Did you want a child?" and you will get the same response. "No I just wanted to get laid." (or else they are lying to secure future sexual possibilities) It is the deasire to be the best possible mate that fuels the world, not the desire to create, that is secondary.

And teen fathers represent the entire population?

It's a very sad person who's motivated by "being the best mate" only.

Do you have any reasoning behind why "everything is motivated by sex" other then just because you think so?

Lavender
February 23rd, 2002, 03:32 AM
Mato, are you saying that sex is the drive for all creatures or just for man in general?

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Wildchild
Mato, are you saying that sex is the drive for all creatures or just for man in general?

All sexual creatures, that means most animals you are familiar with.

Myst~
Ah yes it SOUNDS like I said that... hmmm... Ok so this has been an interesting yet disappointing revilation.
YES! every man, and any 'untamed' woman, will choose sex over food and rest. Interestingly enough the feminine persuit of this can be seen in the many eating disorders in which a woman will forgo eating because she thinks that the thinner they are the better mate they are preceived to be. If your mate is sleeping instead of having sex than it was your implied or very real rejection of that option (no offense should be taken from that comment and if some is I appologize for your missinterpriation of it.) through subtle programing and reward system you are probably not even aware of as you too are trained by the culture you are a part of.

ya that is a bit offensive... perhaps I should not tempt fate and shut up now before I offend any one else. In this case I am taking into consideration the implied meaning of several of the words I would have used and their misinterpritation by readers, I do not see alternative words for my perpose so I just wont proceed. Sorry as I am not done playing around here this is another of my offensive views that will not be posted. I assume I have said enough for you to understand my reasoning without me having to offend further, if not oh well.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 03:56 AM
No, it was his desire for sleep.

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by Myst
No, it was his desire for sleep.

You say that but can you be sure? could it not have been that you implied the absence of a sexual possibility in his emidiate future so he refered to his secondary survival imaprative? You cant know for sure because you are not inside his head above his conscious process with an omniceint view of what is going on.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 04:07 AM
Yes, I'm sure.

Not everyone has a secret desire to have sex all the time you know.

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 04:10 AM
The term secret implies that even if they did (which I know they do) you would not be aware of it.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 04:13 AM
And how do you know they do? Are you omniscient?

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 04:14 AM
And this whole discussion begs the question - if sex is the primary motivation for everything, why are your computer typing to an online forum to discuss this rather then out trying to get sex?

Lavender
February 23rd, 2002, 04:18 AM
You can't make such a general statement, Mato. Not all creature's primary function is sex. Man and dolphins & several species of monkeys are the few that have sex for pleasure.

You look at primal mankind, before modern society suppressed its instincts. They hunt for food, built shelters. They weren't having sex all the time. The basic drive of all creatures is survival...not sex.

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 04:28 AM
<joke> Yes I am GOD after all!</joke> I know men, I am a man. It is common knowledge. Every study on sex and the human mind produces the same results, while socialization can effect minor changes in the reactions to sexual stimulie the base reactions and instincts are immutible laws of nature. Every action and every thought are geared to future sexual encounters even during the other 2 of 3 seconds I am not thinking of the event itself.

this is an excercise like any other, a practice to improve myself in an attempt to make myself the most capable mate to those that I seek. From every encounter and every interaction I grow and learn in order to better serve in a sexual capacity as ALL people do I am just aware of it and dont hide from that fact. <joke>No my mouse is not sticky!</joke>

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 04:31 AM
Yes we're all motivated by sex and too stupid to know it. Thank Goddess you're here to tell us :D

I have a real life study right now - he's asleep in bed, not having sex. Therefore he didn't choose sex, nor did I (as I'm sitting here typing). See how many people are here at any moment and see a tiny percentage of how many people are not motivated by sex only at any given time.

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 04:34 AM
And again, not everyone is man, so that doesn't in anyway even try to prove that everyone and everything is motivated by sex.

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 04:40 AM
You look at primal mankind, before modern society suppressed its instincts. They hunt for food, built shelters. They weren't having sex all the time. The basic drive of all creatures is survival...not sex.

Werent they? I am sorry but I doubt that such activities took all day, tribal cultures have ways around such wastes in time and energy. Sex was/is used as a social bond amoungst not only primitive tribal culture but also modern military and other 'masculine' indeavours. It is through sex that a society is both created sustained defended and conquered. I want to expand on this but it is late so I will leave it till tomorrow night.

There is a fertile cycle amoungst most sexual creatures to allow for the secondary imparative (survival) to allow for the primary imparative. Bison will stop eating while the herd is in a fertile cycle and mate, in some cases to death. Fish birds and mamals all have the same effect (except on those mamals and birds that have developed sufficient brain function to interfere with and divert the primary imparative) the male and female will forgo survival for a chance to mate with the 'strongest' partner availible. Some animals sole existance is to mate, without the secondary imparitive to survive. insects and some small mamals such as the shrew exhibbit this lack of secondary imparative. Only once the creature has developed an appropriately long life span does it form the secondary imparative.


<Pinky, "What are we doing tomorrow night Brain?"
Brain, "The same thing we do every night Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!"> NEW SIG!!!

mato
February 23rd, 2002, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Myst
Yes we're all motivated by sex and too stupid to know it. Thank Goddess you're here to tell us :D

I have a real life study right now - he's asleep in bed, not having sex. Therefore he didn't choose sex, nor did I (as I'm sitting here typing). See how many people are here at any moment and see a tiny percentage of how many people are not motivated by sex only at any given time.

Did he not choose sex because you chose not to have sex? Eh tomorrow is another day, till then!


And again, not everyone is man, so that doesn't in anyway even try to prove that everyone and everything is motivated by sex.

I am not trying to prove anything, I cant prove that any way and you cant prove me wrong so that statement is a d'uh.
<*sings*> Tomorrow Tomorrow... <*/sings*>


Yes we're all motivated by sex and too stupid to know it. Thank Goddess you're here to tell us :D

Ah finally the recognision I deserve! :lol: And dont you forget it! <*sings*>Is only a daay aaaawwwaaaayy<*/sings*>

Goodnight. :p

Lavender
February 23rd, 2002, 04:48 AM
Your statements shows that creatures mate to procreate...not for the pleasure of sex. Again, there is a difference between sex and fertility & creation. These animals are procreating in order to ensure the survival of their species...not just to get their jollies!

:p good night!

Myst
February 23rd, 2002, 05:10 AM
Did he not choose sex because you chose not to have sex? Eh tomorrow is another day, till then!

Again, he chose not to have sex because there are other things to do in life including sleep! How many times do I have to point that out :)


I am not trying to prove anything, I cant prove that any way and you cant prove me wrong so that statement is a d'uh.

Point being it wasn't even pertinent or explanatory, whether you think you can prove anything. If you don't have the intention of proving your point of view or at least the reasoning behind it why argue at all? Why not just stop responding in the thread rather then trying to explain your reasoning?

I'd be interested to see the source of your "buffalo" study. I've been searching the net for it, although I don't think it needs to be said that one study of buffalo does not equate to proof (or even evidence) that every species' primary motivation is "to get laid".

"The drives of hunger and thirst are imperative and must be satisfied under any circumstances. The satisfaction of the sex drive, however, can safely be postponed for a fairly long period, or even for ever. Unlike the drives of hunger and thirst, sex appetite never rouses itself : it is excitable by conscious volition." - http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/woman_man_compare.htm

A Psychological Study ; Motivations, Basic Biological Needs, Hormones & Sexual Orientation, etc. - http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/~joordens/courses/PsyA01/Chapter13/

You'll notice these needs are nutritional sustenance, physical safety, and lastly procreation. You'll also notice (through the study of Maslow's hierarchy among others) the theories on why each "need" exists. A quick search on the 'net will also enable you to find the most prevalent theory on the desire for sex despite that it isn't required for one's continued existence - that being for procreation.

I've found this discussion interesting if nothing else but again I ask - do you have any basis for your belief that everything is motivated by "the need to get laid" other then that's what you think? While I suppose it may be a valid reason for you it's not something that is going to convince anyone else nor something that can be backed up with evidence or logical reasoning; making this discussion effectively at a stalemate. :)

Danustouch
February 23rd, 2002, 09:44 AM
Hell..the only evidence I need, is that at times, i approach my husband for sex (i.e, INTIMACY) and he's "Too Tired" and must take a nap FIRST. That is all the evidence I need, and that sometimes, he's just plain NOT in the mood.

And why is it that men under immense amounts of stress, cannot perform sexually, at times. Hmmmmmm..i wonder. Maybe because Sex is NOT the most important motivating factor in life?

And Mato...are you really so ignorant as to think that the Dalai Lama gives a FIG about that type of fertility, or sexuality?

And Mato..in fact...Sex and Fertility are more of a coincidental link these days then ever before..seeing that people can conceive children without having sex. (Invitro), Fertility is an entirely differen't motivation then Sex.

MANY women are NOT interested in sex. Some women view it as dirty, painful, animalistic...and do NOT like it (i'm not one of them). Many men, also dislike sex, believe it or not.

And..many older men, or men or women who are neutered for whatever reason...DO NOT STILL THINK ABOUT SEX. At least, not with a desire to HAVE IT. I only have to look at my male cat's to understand that. After getting them fixed, they no longer tried to hump the female cat, aren't even interested in the slightest, in fact. And, if they are outside, and a female cat in heat wanders bye, they run in the other direction in fear.

Yes..human beings are still ruled much by our animal instincts. But..not EVERY human being is. I personally think that most human beings try to work on conquering their animal instincts. For some, it works, for others, it doesn't. It's not a matter of socialization, as much as it's a matter of personal choice. Society doesn't approve, these days of men running around and having sex with fifty women in two nights, and yet...it still happens. On the other side of the coin....Men like the Dalai Lama, (an extreme example..but many other bhuddist monks and holymen of other faiths, and even every day people), choose to forgo it altogether, and it ceases to have any meaning in their lives.

And before you arrogantly rattle off how much you doubt that truth, and how you think that them gardening, cooking, doing arts and crafts is a substitute for their urge to have sex..why don't you talk to them and ask THEM????? Bhuddist philosophy hinges upon Non Attatchment. For you to assume that they have merely transferred their need for sex into other outlets, demeans their abilitity to transcend the basic urge, and therefore, cancels out their philosophy of Non Attatchment. I'm sure that that would be highly offensive to them.

In short, between the Evidence that Myst has provided, contrary to your opinion, and with the theories Wildchild and Myst, Illuminatus and I have provided to counter your opinion, you still stubbornly cling to it because...well...I don't really even need to say it. You will always see what you need to see, to some how justify who you are to the rest of the world, and validate who you are to the rest of the world. I largely suspect that your need to find a "Gay God" is simply another way for you to justify who and what you are, and all of the things you do, to the world. And the fact is, your being Gay needs no justification. We do not oppress you, nor negate your validity as a person. We may negate some of your ideas...when there is evidence proving contrary. But never who you are as a person...well..except that annoying arrogance thing. Oops...anyway.

My basic point is, that you continue to make assumptions about other peoples religions. And you don't have any factual premise for these assumptions. You continue to cast aspersions, and make judgements about them, and yet, you are not going to the source itsself for your answers..but simply making assumptions. And my mom always told me something interesting about how one should never make assumptions.

In short..it is never wise to judge another beings path. To judge another persons Gods. It is never wise to TELL a person what they believe. It is usually far more productive to ASK them what they believe. Do not try to psycho analyze all of us, and fit us all into one little box with your treatise on human instincts. You do not have a degree in human behavior, psychology, psychiatry, anthropology to back it up. Therefore, it is just a theory. You haven't done a controlled study on it, therefore, it is JUST A THEORY. So do not offend us with your THEORIES when we are telling you ..they don't FIT us.

THANK YOU!

mato
February 24th, 2002, 01:36 AM
Myst~
I was about to say the same thing, but once it got onto this topic the content was secondary to my goal.

All~
Sorry I had something typed up earlier today and almost done and about to post it and my computer @*#&$^ up and I lost it (always save your work to disk!) so I have to rewrite it before posting it. and I had to work today so I didnt have the time or energy to bother with it yet. It will posted in a day or two (i might have to work tomorrow too!!!) Let me reply to some of the less important points now, just get them out of the way...


And before you arrogantly rattle off how much you doubt that truth, and how you think that them gardening, cooking, doing arts and crafts is a substitute for their urge to have sex..why don't you talk to them and ask THEM?????

There is no such thing as truth, there are only opinions and observations.
I do talk to them however for obvious reasons I can not just go up to the pope (or a pope for that matter) or dalai lama and ask them "How often do you think about sex? Or wish to act on those thoughts?" So saying "Go ask THEM!" is a childish thing at least. However the priests and the more open 'holy' people of my community I have no problem talking to. The old people and my grand parents I do talk to about such (sometimes I wish grandma would shut up! It is gross to hear how 'good' your grandpa is in bed!), but I am not going to go door to door to every one in the country/continent and ask which is basically what you are asking me to do by saying "But..not EVERY human being is." However I also make observations based on peoples actions in public (people watching) and find that their actions speak louder than their denials.


you still stubbornly cling to it because...well...I don't really even need to say it
and you yours because of denial and suppression. And yes I need to say it. <we need a tongue bitting smilly so I can post something without having to say mean things like this!>


I largely suspect that your need to find a "Gay God" is simply another way for you to justify who and what you are, and all of the things you do, to the world. And the fact is, your being Gay needs no justification.
No being gay doesnt need justified. However there is a need for responsible gay spiritual traditions and as an extention of that Gay Dieties. I was looking for these for a friend, deppressed about the common image of homosexuals in both society and religion. I found that I was worshipping a gay god and had to laugh about it, and share that finding.


And Mato...are you really so ignorant as to think that the Dalai Lama gives a FIG about that type of fertility, or sexuality?
Doesnt he? Isnt he supposed to represent the fertility of his religion and it's greatest achievements in a single human life? Meh...

Myst
February 24th, 2002, 05:09 AM
"So saying "Go ask THEM!" is a childish thing at least."

Being as you don't believe people who TELL you differently it ain't gonna be worth a crap to ask anyone, since you obviously know everything. You're missing the point entirely!

"And Mato...are you really so ignorant as to think that the Dalai Lama gives a FIG about that type of fertility, or sexuality?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Doesnt he? Isnt he supposed to represent the fertility of his religion and it's greatest achievements in a single human life? Meh..."

Read her sentence again. Notice "gives a FIG about that type of fertility or sexuality". That means she wasn't saying he has no interest in *any* fertility but fertility as in human procreation which is a direct result of sex.

I'm looking forward to reasoning beyond "because that's the way it is and I said so!". :)

Euphoria
February 24th, 2002, 08:44 AM
Sex is sex. It's a physical act. Anything else you're going on about is not sex. Spirituality, growth, deities, etc. but it isn't sex.

I totally agree with that .... what has sex gotta do with religion, spirituality, growth, deities or anything else .... IMO sex is 2 thngs

1. Pleasure and physical art
2. The act of making new life


Does feminine sexuality cease to be after the organs will no longer produce offspring?

IMO that is offensive to me as you seem to be applying that when we can no longer bear child we lose both our sexuality and our desire for sex




No IMO there isnt. There is no gray (nor black or white) just two opinions. Either 1) sex does not effect your thinking and descision making 24/7 or 2) sex is the force for which the world turns, all men are powerless against her will and all women are equally subject to her word/law. No grey just two opinions.

WEll all i can say is that that is a very shallow view with no room for compromise ... and in that you deny one of the most important traits of life ... the ability to compromise !!
Also that is absolute rubbish .... sex can at times affect your thinking but not always and it does not have to be your divine force which makes the world turn


No I said that gay gods are denied by straight worshippers and even demonized in modern times by the same people. Nowere did I state that Straight Gods did jack sh*t to Gay Gods, but rather the people treat their divinity as they treat the people they repersent, gay gods were shuned by man because gay people were. And thanks so much for your support Neuter yes, as he is simply a creator

Ok first of all i dont believe that the deities have any sexuality as that would imply a basis for equality to be denied .... as you said the Gods are simply creator and this also relates back to an earlier discussion on the gender of god ... IMO god has no gender .. perhaps their personality may be best suited as male and female .. but again without gender there can be no sexuality