Community moderation discussion!

[mol]

Well, folks. We have always prided our community here as being very open to suggestions and we have always valued our community members input (despite what some have said in the past...when you get this big...someone is bound to say 'the admins just don't care', but that has never been the case...and I am sure MOST of you know that).

One of the biggest problems we have had over the years has had to do with cliques, moderator groups, and RULES. Yes, rules. We have had lists of rules, lined out to the letter...only to have folks bend them and figure out a way to get around them. And then we have had one rule, the rule of Respect, where admins are put on the spot to decide if something warrants a moderation or not.

This has been back and forth for YEARS. We have had listed rules, at least 3 times and two times we have went back to the one rule of Respect. We currently stand on this rule now, but it has it's flaws.

Some of you have complained that while you get moderated publicly you have no public recourse or way to discuss the moderations. That's because it is in our guidelines that moderations would always be addressed in private via PM and/or email. We have heard the complaints and thanks to the makers of this fine piece of software we run our forums on (*cough*) we, the admins, think we have a way to satisfy both sides of this issue.

And so enters the infraction system. The infraction system is basically a system of points that people get for being, let's call it 'naughty'; for lack of a better word. There are different levels of naughtiness, therefore there are different points for different naughty things. When you accumulate a certain number of infraction points then you would be banned automatically. An admin wouldn't even be the one doing it.

Now, the next problem one might think is...what if I do a few 'naughty' things and then several months later I do something else and then I get banned...wait this is not fair! Well, the infraction system allows us a time-frame for infraction points to fall off, as well. So, like, lets say a signature that is too long might earn you a 1 point infraction, but that 1 point only lasts 2 weeks. While something like spam might earn 50 points that NEVER falls off. Get it?

The next interesting thing about the infraction system is that we can actually make it so that each infraction creates a thread in a sub-forum of the Site Room aptly named, um, The Infraction Forum...in this thread the person infracted can actually discuss their infraction in public with the admins and even other community members. Some might say this is only encouraging an argument, but we are just trying our best to HEAR what the community is saying to us (the admins)...and we feel that since this is basically a community-moderated place....then folks should be able to discuss their moderations with the community. I think this will help the admins and the Community better understand the rule of Respect.

Of course, now comes the fun part. We have to define the infractions, assign them points, and length of time for them to drop off (if ever). We want your input. This is not a vote. It would be impossible to vote on everything, but we will consider everything you, as a community, says in this thread. Tell us what you feel should be an an infraction as it pertains to our respect rule and guidelines (http://www.mysticwicks.com/faq.php?faq=mw_faqs#faq_rules), tell us what point YOU would assign to it and how long of a time it would take for that point to drop off. Tell us if you feel certain points should not drop off.

Let me give you some examples to start you off:

Let's assume a ban goes into effect at 50 points.

Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days
Go around our PG-13 censor (F-Bomb, etc) - 5 points - 14 days
Name-calling - 5 point - 7 days
Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)
Adult content posting - 50 points - (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Trolling & Spamming - 50 points (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Publicly displaying PM's and Karma pokes - 10 points - 10 days

So, there ya go. Discuss. Give us input. As you give us information to go on we will start creating infractions in the infraction system and adjusting the points accordingly. I will create the Infraction forum right now.

And away we go...

(Oh, and for those of you who have already received infraction points...there will be threads waiting for you in there. :))

[mol]

Probably be better in the Wicks Announcements forum. =]

[SSanf]

"Publicly displaying PM's" to me that is both dishonorable and betrayal. I would make it a higher point value.

What is presumed private should remain private.

Someone who does that should not get 4 free shots before being banned. And, I would make it a lot longer than 10 days on that one. To me, that is despicable.

Where is the infraction forum?

[mol]

"Publicly displaying PM's" to me that is both dishonorable and betrayal. I would make it a higher point value.

What is presumed private should remain private.

Someone who does that should not get 4 free shots before being banned. And, I would make it a lot longer than 10 days on that one. To me, that is despicable.

Where is the infraction forum?
The infraction forum is in the Site Room. You have to give more info, SSanf. What points would you give, how long would they last? Be specific, people. Come on.

[DragonsChest]

I agree with SSanf. When I send a PM to someone, I expect that PM to remain between me and the recipient. Maybe that's a little naive of me, but that's what I do with others who send PMs to me, and what I've always expected in return. I keep it private, hence: Private Message.

If I were to send someone a PM that they found objectionable, and if they share that with an Admin, then that's okay. But not on the whole board. *course, I wouldn't send such a PM*

Thanks!

[SSanf]

I guess, that I would make it 30 points so that they cannot do it twice but would not be banned if they had some points for minor infractions. I would make it last, at least, 30 days because I find it so abhorent to have private communications made the subject of public gossip, speculation and judgement.

[Jenne]

The next interesting thing about the infraction system is that we can actually make it so that each infraction creates a thread in a sub-forum of the Site Room aptly named, um, The Infraction Forum...in this thread the person infracted can actually discuss their infraction in public with the admins and even other community members. Some might say this is only encouraging an argument, but we are just trying our best to HEAR what the community is saying to us (the admins)...and we feel that since this is basically a community-moderated place....then folks should be able to discuss their moderations with the community. I think this will help the admins and the Community better understand the rule of Respect.


Well, mol, I spoke a bit hastily in another thread. The quotation above relieves me...somewhat. I'll wait to see how much we say here as a community is actually weighted...that's nothing against YOU, mol. I'm just a realist about how things are modded, esp now that I'm modding elsewhere. You make decisions for the "good of all," and sometimes that's against a few. C'est la vie.

I like the idea we can encourage others to be good and protect those who feel like they're not being bad but picked on by mods nonetheless. *shrug* If you can explore the notion as a community, well, it'll help soothe those ruffled, and define those things that are vague. Consensus is good.

So, thanks for clarifying for us. I appreciate it.

[Jenne]

Can I have a definition of what a "sig violation" is?

[SSanf]

I would reduce "Go around our PG-13 censor" to 7 days. I really do not find saying something such as "heck" to substitute for "hell" offensive at all. In fact, I feel offended when such expressive terms are moderated, at all, and get the impression that the moderator has a bug up their rear. (Note the creative substitution.)

(I use those for demonstration. I know there are many worse words.)

Of course, I spent a lot of time in upstate NY where the language is much more colorful and creative than what is acceptable in other parts of the country. I know there is a lot of regional variation in what is considered reasonable terms of expression.

We need a list of what words we cannot use like the Hayes office had. That would be clear to all. Leaving it up to the moderator's individual concept of what words merit an infraction does not allow for regional variations in what is considered acceptable for communication in a public forum. It should be spelled out.

I think there should be a means of appeal to have an infraction removed.

[Shanti]

The pg 13 thing. What words are not allowed and allowed. I use friggin, is that a nono? I use heck a lot.

What exactly are the 'bad' words?

I have used crap and crappy and dam and a bunch of lower rated slang/swear words. I use bull sticks and rats butt too. Oh my that sentence sounds gross!! :lol:

What are bad substitutes?

[mol]

The only words really censored on this board is the F word and G-Damn. That's it. Now, excessive use of words...like every other word being shit and words that are sexually related are consider R-rated...at least here.

[mol]

Can I have a definition of what a "sig violation" is?
Well, sig violations might be a think of the past. The new software contains a sig enforcement mechanism that might make it easier for us to control what users put in their sigs. Sigs that take up half the screen are quite annoying.

[TheWomanMonster]

The pg 13 thing. What words are not allowed and allowed. I use friggin, is that a nono? I use heck a lot.

What exactly are the 'bad' words?

I have used crap and crappy and dam and a bunch of lower rated slang/swear words. I use bull sticks and rats butt too. Oh my that sentence sounds gross!! :lol:

What are bad substitutes?

Actually I've been wondering about that myself...
And does the Rants and Rages thread count?? hehe.

Monster.

[mol]

PG-13, as it pertains to TV PG-13. I know there are guidelines somewhere. Or maybe we just make them here. Discuss!

[SSanf]

I went to the infraction room and noted that the name of the moderator assigning infractions is posted. I think that is a very good thing and should be continued. It sure offers a lot of insight. The conclusion to be drawn is obvious to me.

[Jenne]

Well, sig violations might be a think of the past. The new software contains a sig enforcement mechanism that might make it easier for us to control what users put in their sigs. Sigs that take up half the screen are quite annoying.

Ok, so sig violations might not be much of an issue, then, unless it's an offensive language or picture thing, I suppose?

[Jenne]

PG-13, as it pertains to TV PG-13. I know there are guidelines somewhere. Or maybe we just make them here. Discuss!

The one you have in force now seems cool to me.

I have yet to see anything that's unnecessarily modded vis a vis language on a PG-13 level.

[Shanti]

I have seen pretty bad pg 13 movies that have a lot of swearing in them!!
Not to mention graphic violence that blew my mind. Some R rated I have seen should of been pg 13!! I personally think the rating of movies has not been all that great.

I know its illegal to have porn of any kind around minors, that's law. But is there actually a no swearing around minors law? I'm curious since swearing, at least in my neck of the planet, is common amongst all ages!
I know the F word has that stigma attached to it but there are a lot of words some find offensive and others don't.

Is there some kind of legal guideline?

Gee how do we regulate words and substitutes?

[Infinite Grey]

_inabox_ this infraction system looks painful... I do not think it will be long before I'm banned (after checking out what people were getting infractions for)

[TheWomanMonster]

You're not badass enough to get banned Peacock.
(Oh and does badass count as a swear?)

Monster.

[Shanti]

The only words really censored on this board is the F word and G-Damn. That's it. Now, excessive use of words...like every other word being shit and words that are sexually related are consider R-rated...at least here.
I missed this post!! Oopps.

To be safe maybe &*$%*@# would work?_inabox_

[Philosophia]

hug works better! :hahugh:
For example: **** you!

[Infinite Grey]

You're not badass enough to get banned Peacock.
(Oh and does badass count as a swear?)

Monster.


Look through the infractions... I'm guilty of a least half of what's already been given out... EEP! I'll just shut up now... the enforcers might notice me. :imout:

[TheWomanMonster]

hug works better! :hahugh:
For example: hug you!

But what if I were to say, "Minerva you're so awesome, I want to hug you..."

I think it gets confusing. Or at least... it could.
Creative substitution is all good though.

Monster.

[mol]

I have seen pretty bad pg 13 movies that have a lot of swearing in them!!
Not to mention graphic violence that blew my mind. Some R rated I have seen should of been pg 13!! I personally think the rating of movies has not been all that great.

I know its illegal to have porn of any kind around minors, that's law. But is there actually a no swearing around minors law? I'm curious since swearing, at least in my neck of the planet, is common amongst all ages!
I know the F word has that stigma attached to it but there are a lot of words some find offensive and others don't.

Is there some kind of legal guideline?

Gee how do we regulate words and substitutes?
Like I said. The F-Word and G-Damn is what we are concerned with. And we have them censored. So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.

[DragonsChest]

I went to the Infraction Forum, and read all the posts. I think we shall all need to be very careful around here now. _inabox_

[Infinite Grey]

mmhmmm... I think I'll bail until it settles down.

[Zibblsnrt]

As far as the point system goes, it looks okay. There's going to be different ways to handle that on different sites. One site I'm on has one, in which all offenses short of a handful of insta-bans are worth one point, and some reasonable number (30-50) in a year warrants a ban. That's an idea to consider, anyway.

Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days

Oh, to have had something like this in the Usenet days...

Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)

Two things about this one - a fairly useful definition of "proselytizing" would be necessary being the most important. It's an incredibly subjective thing. If Person X believes A, and Person Y believes B and really loathes A, I can see Person Y spinning almost any positive or defensive mention of A as "proselytizing" and dragging the mods into things which aren't worth their time.

Also, what would you do about what for lack of a better term might be "consentual" proselytizing? Someone specifically asks someone else to convince them on a matter of faith, or a potentially heated yet still-respectful theological/philosophical debate between folks obviously of different and strongly-held viewpoints, etc.

Basically I can see it having a whole lot of false positives; especially in the political, theology, science or astrology forums. Proselytizing is a less obvious sort of thing than spam, porn or calling someone a blight on civilization in need of a fiery culling, so more care needs to be paid towards figuring out what it is. Especially if you're going to come down on someone like a twelfth-storey safe over it.

I also think it should expire, even if it takes awhile to do so or does so in stages. Spam, really hideously out-of-line stuff and ban evasion should really be the only unforgivables.

For dragging PMs and karma into public, there should be degrees in that. Referring to an innocuous PM or k-poke in an obviously non-hostile way shouldn't be an offense at all (assuming the person being referenced doesn't object). Starting a thread or post to quote and publicly go after a PM in detail absolutely should be considered one. The more common response in which people simply whine about them (say, hypothetically, my going "oh, thanks for the red, real nice of you" as opposed to "get a load of what so-and-so karmad me with: (quote)") should fall somewhere between the two extremes, and probably fairly mildly. Personally I consider referencing them like that to be more childish than genuinely offensive, though I would get pissed if someone decided to drag one of my PMs into public to start a fight over it. YMMV.

Past that ... I'm not sure how much I like the idea of the infraction threads being public. You guys have been pretty consistent on the idea that admin modings are not to be discussed publicly; placing them into public threads where anyone can comment only really serves to completely nullify that. Are you sure you want to do a 180 on something like that, as opposed to keeping the discussion (or "discussion") between the offending user and the mod(s)? Witness one of the threads, in which a user responds to a different person getting an infraction by, well, carry the thread into that one.

In other words, what business is it of mine if one of the mods admin-modes someone who isn't me and they want to discuss it? I don't think I should have the permission to read those threads, really, and consider them kind of redundant with the traditional suggestion you guys make of discussing them in private, with the mod in question or others as necessary for a "second opinion."

[Gwenhwyfar]

This reminds me of the automated voices you get when you dial any big business..

[Philosophia]

But what if I were to say, "Minerva you're so awesome, I want to hug you..."

I'm seriously going to question you if you say it! :hahugh: 8O

I think it gets confusing. Or at least... it could.
Creative substitution is all good though.
Monster.

I do agree, but I think it has to be looked at in the context of the message...
For example:
If I write "I ****ing hate you, you dumb ****!" the context is pretty clear.
But if I write "I could just hug you, sweetheart!" its a little shakey but then the relationship of the posters would have to be questioned, i.e. if they know each other well, or personally, or if its just a one off love-fest.
Am I making sense? Probably not..._inabox_

[Infinite Grey]

Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days
Go around our PG-13 censor (F-Bomb, etc) - 5 points - 14 days
Name-calling - 5 point - 7 days
Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)
Adult content posting - 50 points - (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Trolling & Spamming - 50 points (Never expires - basically automatic ban)
Publicly displaying PM's and Karma pokes - 10 points - 10 days



hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:

[Zibblsnrt]

hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:

On the one hand, I imagine the mods would frown on that. On the other hand, the idea as a built-into-the-rules excuse to blow off steam (go nuts, tread REALLY quietly for a week) entertains the hell out of me. ;)

[Gwenhwyfar]

hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:


you would pick up on that. :lol:

[Jenne]

I like the window into the modding. I think it's a protection against people feeling picked on. If a group of people strongly object to a moderation...I think they should be able to say so. It's frustrating to watch your friends go down and have to sit silently by, or "report" and admin, which doesn't mean you'll get a follow up pm or even a comment. I've had that happen.

[TheWomanMonster]

Obviously this is a new system and the bugs will be worked out eventually.
What's so bad about watching our words anyways?
Seriously, it's not as though they'll give you an infraction for simply disagreeing with whatever is said. Only if you become offensive or obscene.
Remember... rule 1 = respect.

So yeah, rant over.

monster.

[mol]

I went to the Infraction Forum, and read all the posts. I think we shall all need to be very careful around here now. _inabox_
Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?

[mol]

hmmmm actually... come to think of it... this system means I can blatantly insult some a maximum of 9 times a week... timed correctly I could lay insult day... :hehehehe:
Nope, because I will make sure there is an infraction in place for people who constantly break the Rule. =]

[Jenne]

Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?

Eh. Yes and no.

The wizard behind the curtain is more/less revealed now, I think. Seeing the nuts and bolts of what goes on in modding will become uncomfortable for some. I think it's difficult for those who feel it's a private process--what Zibblsnrt was referring to.

Also, how much say we actually HAVE is going to be shown in how effective our words are in those threads. I see a lot of consensus down there NOW...in the dark of night, where there are few of us around. Come the daylight, we'll see.

I think it's a start, and a better one than if we couldn't have our say...but I think I'd think differently if there were more mods than there are now. The more spread out the responsibility, in other words, the better.

[CzechWoods]

I went to the Infraction Forum, and read all the posts. I think we shall all need to be very careful around here now. _inabox_

Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?


i dont think so, mol. i agree with dragons chest.

example:
if someone has given me red karma, and i vent about it i am treated the same way as if i had quoted from a private message.

i dont believe these two are equal.

but i said it before. its your forum, you do what you see fit

[Sequoia]

I have to admit that I'm opposed to the idea.

The whole point of having moderators was so that they could track what folks were doing in a careful way, and make judgements based on context. I suppose using "Naughty Points" could seem like it's more fair, but it doesn't do away with the favouritism or cliques that seem to pop up - you still have to be modded in the first place, after all.

Not only that, but the public debate forums for moderation... I can just see this turning into a horrible public spectacle of flaming and mockery. The PMing system seem to work to me, and if you don't like one mod's treatment, you can CC another mod.

Not to mention that the point system allows for a lot of ass-hole-ery. You can be a complete jerk so long as you do it in incriments. Which is both good and bad.

[Infinite Grey]

Nope, because I will make sure there is an infraction in place for people who constantly break the Rule. =]


hmmm ok then... what constitutes an insult then?

[SSanf]

Past that ... I'm not sure how much I like the idea of the infraction threads being public.
I think it is an excellent idea! If the poster is in the wrong, they won't find any support. But, if the mod has been unfair, the receiver of the infraction can be defended.

Since people will be booted automatically by this system, I think if the poster has NOT been in error, at least, they can appeal to the community at large to seek support in getting the infraction lifted.

There are four advantages.

1. The mods will learn the level of moderation that the entire community really wants.

2. The posters can read and understand the limits better.

3. The chance of a poster being singled out due to some dislike of a moderator is eliminated.

4. It may save your kiester some day.

Making the infractions public is a big improvement on having it all on the hush, hush. It is like the difference between a trial that can be attended by members of the public and secret trials. Which do you really think are better?

At the very least, I think we should give this a chance. I think it will work well.

[Shanti]

There have been unfair moderations and at least now we have a voice.
That part I like.

[RavensEye]

So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.
Excuse me i have a problem with this... When I swear in the Primal scream thread I usually do this f---- because that is simply what I do in most forums I go to, and have been doing that long a time. It is not swearing outright, but according to what your saying that would be an example of getting around the censor. Am I understanding this correctly?

[Jenne]

Excuse me i have a problem with this... When I swear in the Primal scream thread I usually do this f---- because that is simply what I do in most forums I go to, and have been doing that long a time. It is not swearing outright, but according to what your saying that would be an example of getting around the censor. Am I understanding this correctly?

*had a question about this too*

I often (I am Teh PottyMouth) say "effing" or "effed up"...

[Penthesilea]

A suggestion. On the forum I moderate we recently had a situation where a very large amount of copyrighted material was posted without the sources being cited and the impression was given that the work was the poster's own. It wasn't until I read a piece that I knew had been written by someone else that the deception was discovered. Since this incident was the latest in an ongoing litany of rule infractions/warnings, the posts were removed and the poster banned from our forum. Consequently, I would suggest that posting copyrighted material in violation of the Fair Use Policy be added to the infraction list with a fairly stiff penalty.

[Jenne]

At the very least, I think we should give this a chance. I think it will work well.


ITAWTC

And see, SSanf and I RARELY agree on much in PP, but here we are, face to face, a couple of silver---I mean, two of a kind, agreeing here on this very thing.

A chance for the members to be heard out. It's an intimidating process, going from admin to admin, trying to get someone to hear you out. And I think generally, the admins tend to agree on moderations for the most part...bannings I've HEARD not so much, but that was back when there were like 3 more of them to be had.

[mol]

Eh. Yes and no.

The wizard behind the curtain is more/less revealed now, I think. Seeing the nuts and bolts of what goes on in modding will become uncomfortable for some. I think it's difficult for those who feel it's a private process--what Zibblsnrt was referring to.

Also, how much say we actually HAVE is going to be shown in how effective our words are in those threads. I see a lot of consensus down there NOW...in the dark of night, where there are few of us around. Come the daylight, we'll see.

I think it's a start, and a better one than if we couldn't have our say...but I think I'd think differently if there were more mods than there are now. The more spread out the responsibility, in other words, the better.
Oh, no. Reports only go to the admins. =] We still make the decision on whether or not to give an infraction. This merely makes it visible to the public that we, the admins, are not playing favorites...we are doing our jobs. Just because someone reports something doesn't mean we are going to agree with the report...and that is still between just the admins.

[mol]

hmmm ok then... what constitutes an insult then?
Oh, come on.

[RavensEye]

OP: Penthesilea
Consequently, I would suggest that posting copyrighted material in violation of the Fair Use Policy be added to the infraction list with a fairly stiff penalty

I think that would be a good idea to add as well.

[mol]

I think it is an excellent idea! If the poster is in the wrong, they won't find any support. But, if the mod has been unfair, the receiver of the infraction can be defended.

Since people will be booted automatically by this system, I think if the poster has NOT been in error, at least, they can appeal to the community at large to seek support in getting the infraction lifted.

There are four advantages.

1. The mods will learn the level of moderation that the entire community really wants.

2. The posters can read and understand the limits better.

3. The chance of a poster being singled out due to some dislike of a moderator is eliminated.

4. It may save your kiester some day.

Making the infractions public is a big improvement on having it all on the hush, hush. It is like the difference between a trial that can be attended by members of the public and secret trials. Which do you really think are better?

At the very least, I think we should give this a chance. I think it will work well.

Great points, SSanf.

There have been unfair moderations and at least now we have a voice.
That part I like.
Yah, just like there have been many a folks who should have been mod'd and were not.

[Shanti]

*had a question about this too*

I often (I am Teh PottyMouth) say "effing" or "effed up"...
I like my friggin. :(
I use it in real life when in the company of verbally sensitive people.
My girlfriend uses fudgin for her substitute! :)

[Brónach Druid]

Wow, I looked at the infractions thread and was pretty amazed. However, I am hoping that as you get all this worked out you will give us good definitions of what you feel constitutes a violations for each infraction. There are some things that I wouldn't have assumed was part of it. For example stating that you received red karma. I didn't realize that it was not allowed to state this or that you were not allowed to tell people if you were happy about a specific good karma. Also will insulting and name calling fall into the same category? It may sound juvenile to spell things out, but I think a well defined list will help eliminate some arguments and confusion. I do think the infraction thread, allowing everyone to voice opinions, is a wonderful idea.
Ok so for what its worth....here are my 2 cents.

Signature violations - 1 point - 7 days

Go around our PG-13 censor (F-Bomb, etc) - 5 points - 10 days

Name-calling -1- 5 point - 7 days
Depending on the severity

Proselytizing - 25 points (Never expires)
Could you give a little firmer definition to what you are considering as proselytizing? As this is a board of many different religious beliefs. I think sometimes peoples responds in some threads could be considered mild proselytizing. Are you strictly referring to situations like those who sometimes troll the board with those "become a christian now and be saved" type of posts?

Adult content posting - 50 points - (Never expires - basically automatic ban)

Trolling & Spamming - 50 points (Never expires - basically automatic ban)

Publicly displaying PM's - 25 points - 30 days
Publicly displaying Karma pokes - 10 points - 7 days
*I personally feel this should be two separate infractions and the Karma should apply to stating/displaying exact wording only, not stating that you received it.

I would suggest: Opening a new thread with the intent to purposely continue an argument from a closed thread.
15 points - 10 days

I was also wondering will this point system be applied to PM's? That is if someone complains that someone is harassing them via PM or will that have its own point system or be handled in some other way? Or are PM's never controlled by Admin's/Mod's? Just curious....

[Shanti]

Yah, just like there have been many a folks who should have been mod'd and were not. very true!! :)

[Infinite Grey]

Oh, come on.

I'm serious! Insulting content changes from culture to culture, this is an international forum right? I'm just curious.

[mol]

Excuse me i have a problem with this... When I swear in the Primal scream thread I usually do this f---- because that is simply what I do in most forums I go to, and have been doing that long a time. It is not swearing outright, but according to what your saying that would be an example of getting around the censor. Am I understanding this correctly?
I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.

[mol]

I'm serious! Insulting content changes from culture to culture, this is an international forum right? I'm just curious.
Look up TV PG-13 guidelines in Google then. Use the one up at the top on the right of the forums. =} Anyway, no way am I going to spell out what can be said and what can't. Respect each other. The rule is not changing. We are writng up infractions that consitute the Rule.

[Philosophia]

Publicly displaying PM's - 25 points - 30 days
Publicly displaying Karma pokes - 10 points - 7 days
*I personally feel this should be two separate infractions and the Karma should apply to stating/displaying exact wording only, not stating that you received it.

I agree with this! When I get red karma, I sometimes brag about it but I don't state what the message was.

I was also wondering will this point system be applied to PM's? That is if someone complains that someone is harassing them via PM or will that have its own point system or be handled in some other way? Or are PM's never controlled by Admin's/Mod's? Just curious....

Very good question! :hugz:

[Infinite Grey]

Look up TV PG-13 guidelines in Google then. Use the one up at the top on the right of the forums. =} Anyway, no way am I going to spell out what can be said and what can't. Respect each other. The rule is not changing. We are writng up infractions that consitute the Rule.

fair enough, US guidelines then :lol:

[Jenne]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.

So no use of "effed up" or "effing" then? Those are lexicalized words that signal the f-bomb but don't it literally.

Also, "friggin" and "fricken" are stepchildren of the f-bomb + -ing...what's their status? They're usually allowed in PG-13 media, as far as I can tell.

I'm just asking so I can avoid the "f-bomb" infraction.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Heh, not to sound disrespectful, but I think this infraction system sounds absolutely awful. It seems incredibly restrictive, and it's already making me overanalyse my posts and make sure I put things delicately so that nobody, naive second-graders included, could perhaps be even mildly offended by anything I may or may not have to offer to discussion. And that's not what MW is about - or, at least, that's not at all the impression I got since I joined two years ago. It's about free-flowing discussion, not censorship.

And if it's not, it should be.

[mol]

I agree with this! When I get red karma, I sometimes brag about it but I don't state what the message was.



Very good question! :hugz:

That's a good point. And I just gave a stiff infraction to someone for saying that they received red karma...they mentioned WHO gave it, but not who said it. How about that?

fair enough, US guidelines then :lol:

Thank you!

So no use of "effed up" or "effing" then? Those are lexicalized words that signal the f-bomb but don't it literally.

Also, "friggin" and "fricken" are stepchildren of the f-bomb + -ing...what's their status? They're usually allowed in PG-13 media, as far as I can tell.

I'm just asking so I can avoid the "f-bomb" infraction.

Well, we have kids here, do you want to here a 12 year old say fricken? Why can't we just not use that word here and save it for other, more suitable places.

[mol]

Could you give a little firmer definition to what you are considering as proselytizing? As this is a board of many different religious beliefs. I think sometimes peoples responds in some threads could be considered mild proselytizing. Are you strictly referring to situations like those who sometimes troll the board with those "become a christian now and be saved" type of posts?

I was also wondering will this point system be applied to PM's? That is if someone complains that someone is harassing them via PM or will that have its own point system or be handled in some other way? Or are PM's never controlled by Admin's/Mod's? Just curious....

Being harassed via PM? Tell the person not contact you again and put them on ignore. Problem solved. Proselytyzing, to me, means trying to convert someone to another religion or Path. Witnessing, etc.

Heh, not to sound disrespectful, but I think this infraction system sounds absolutely awful. It seems incredibly restrictive, and it's already making me overanalyse my posts and make sure I put things delicately so that nobody, naive second-graders included, could perhaps be even mildly offended by anything I may or may not have to offer to discussion. And that's not what MW is about - or, at least, that's not at all the impression I got since I joined two years ago. It's about free-flowing discussion, not censorship.

And if it's not, it should be.

You mean it's actually making you *think* about what you are saying before you post? ;)

[Jenne]

Well, we have kids here, do you want to here a 12 year old say fricken? Why can't we just not use that word here and save it for other, more suitable places.

*shrug* I think I'd be LUCKY if I got a 12 year old who only said "fricken," but I think this is where the rubber meets the road. I don't see "shit" as better than "fricken"...personally. In fact, growing up, I had a mother who allowed butt, darn and friggen but not fart, hell or shit...

So, this is where microcultural differences will vary, and the decision will be yours.

It's frustrating, since I know PG-13 includes allusions to things...but this may be interpreted differently person-to-person.

[mol]

*shrug* I think I'd be LUCKY if I got a 12 year old who only said "fricken," but I think this is where the rubber meets the road. I don't see "shit" as better than "fricken"...personally. In fact, growing up, I had a mother who allowed butt, darn and friggen but not fart, hell or shit...

So, this is where microcultural differences will vary, and the decision will be yours.

It's frustrating, since I know PG-13 includes allusions to things...but this may be interpreted differently person-to-person.
=] You know...people are already making this out to be more than it is. This is still a community moderated, um, community. Has anyone ever reported you for saying f---- in the rant thread? I have never seen it. And therefore you would probably never get an infraction for that.

[Shanti]

PP will never be the same.

But hey this test my colorful metaphoric expression talent!!! :)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

You mean it's actually making you *think* about what you are saying before you post? ;)

Not at all.

What I mean is that it's probably going to make people dumb down what they have to say in order to make it easier to swallow, and be ovely concerned with not stepping on any toes rather than actually voicing concerns, opinions, and knowledge.

[Philosophia]

That's a good point. And I just gave a stiff infraction to someone for saying that they received red karma...they mentioned WHO gave it, but not who said it. How about that?

Thats fine. _inabox_

[maphdet]

Alright...So are there new rules or the same 'respect' rule?

That is a genuine question, because I am Real confused now.

[SSanf]

Ok, so we can't say, "I got a red karma poke" even if we don't mention who gave it, right?

Or, can we say that but cannot mention who gave it to protect people who give them from abuse?

I don't understand the harm in saying."I got a red karma poke". But, I understand it not being cool to tell who is handing them out.

[mol]

PP will never be the same.

But hey this test my colorful metaphoric expression talent!!! :)

Not at all.

What I mean is that it's probably going to make people dumb down what they have to say in order to make it easier to swallow, and be ovely concerned with not stepping on any toes rather than actually voicing concerns, opinions, and knowledge.

Hehe. So, yes, it will make people think more before they post. =]

[Jenne]

=] You know...people are already making this out to be more than it is. This is still a community moderated, um, community. Has anyone ever reported you for saying f---- in the rant thread? I have never seen it. And therefore you would probably never get an infraction for that.

You're right. Usually it has to be brought to the attention of an admin before it's even noticed and then brought to bear.

LOL It's a little harrying, though, I guess. Censorship is NEVER fun, even if it's just, like I said, the man behind the curtain.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Hehe. So, yes, it will make people think more before they post. =]

My concern is that the larger picture of what's trying to be said will be lost in the self-censorship people will have to inflict upon themselves, which could be unnecessary.

[Jenne]

Ok, so we can't say, "I got a red karma poke" even if we don't mention who gave it, right?

Or, can we say that but cannot mention who gave it to protect people who give them from abuse?

I think this is it. You can mention the red karma but not who gave it...this is actually what I do as a general rule. I rarely mention who gave it, just that I got it for stating what I'd said.

[mol]

Alright...So are there new rules or the same 'respect' rule?

That is a genuine question, because I am Real confused now.

No new rule. The same one. Just different way of handling moderations. Respect. =]

Ok, so we can't say, "I got a red karma poke" even if we don't mention who gave it, right?

Or, can we say that but cannot mention who gave it to protect people who give them from abuse?

I don't understand the harm in saying."I got a red karma poke". But, I understand it not being cool to tell who is handing them out.

Hahaha! You guys are killing me. Keep it simple. No displaying of private messages or karma without consent of the other person. Done.

My concern is that the larger picture of what's trying to be said will be lost in the self-censorship people will have to inflict upon themselves, which could be unnecessary.

*whistles*

[RavensEye]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.

Ok I realized I have used in the rant forum, and the helping hands forum when I rant about the crap going on in my life.
But as I said before it is just the way I have typed in forums for awhile and mean no disrespect to you if it happens again. And no I am not planning on doing it deliberatly but I am aware that sometimes I make mistakes and I do forget sometimes.

But ya know something that just hit me is personal pms. If want to vent to someone in pms I think that is a bit much to have the words censored in there to ya know. (Just my opinion.)

Well, we have kids here, do you want to here a 12 year old say fricken? Why can't we just not use that word here and save it for other, more suitable places.
Gee my 9 year old says worse then Fricken....
As I said above I can change it may take me awhile, but you just cannot change certain habits over night.



Oh and by the way when I self censor it does not just go for the f word I do it for others as well.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

But ya know something that just hit me is personal pms. If want to vent to someone in pms I think that is a bit much to have the words censored in there to ya know. (Just my opinion.)
.
Ahh no way -

Personal PMs will be censored too?

You've gotta be joking...

[Anubis]

so exactly what are the siggy guidelines?.. Kind of hard to avoid an infraction if they aren't posted somewhere (and no I'm not tryin' to being a buggar about it.. it's just cause I don't know!)

[SSanf]

I don't expect the moderation to be any tougher than it has been in the past. Probably, it will be about the same.

[mol]

Ok I realized I have used in the rant forum, and the helping hands forum when I rant about the crap going on in my life.
But as I said before it is just the way I have typed in forums for awhile and mean no disrespect to you if it happens again. And no I am not planning on doing it deliberatly but I am aware that sometimes I make mistakes.

But ya know something that just hit me is personal pms. If want to vent to someone in pms I think that is a bit much to have the words censored in there to ya know. (Just my opinion.)


Gee my 9 year old says worse then Fricken....
As I said above we can it is just going to be hard to change certain habits that we have had,or actually I have had for awhile just like that.

The system doesn't care if its a post or pm. I can't tell it to not do one or the other. If I could I would. I say the F word all the time. Check MWad out sometime.

Anyway, the RULE is not changing folks. You need to get that through your heads right now...FIRST...the way we handle moderations...ADMIN MODES...that is what is changing. Not the Rule. it's been the same forever. Geez.

Re-read my post and perhaps give me infractions, points, and times...

[Brónach Druid]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the board will continue to be monitored the same way it always has been. That is not the change. The only change is how the "punishment" is given and that we now have the privilege of giving our own opinions on it. As well as right now we are being asked our opinion on what we feel is the appropriate amount of points to assign those "punishments". Am I misunderstanding?

[mol]

Ahh no way -

Personal PMs will be censored too?

You've gotta be joking...
Oh, good grief.

[mol]

I don't expect the moderation to be any tougher than it has been in the past. Probably, it will be about the same.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the board will continue to be monitored the same way it always has been. That is not the change. The only change is how the "punishment" is given and that we now have the privilege of giving our own opinions on it. As well as right now we are being asked our opinion on what we feel is the appropriate amount of points to assign those "punishments". Am I misunderstanding?

DING! DING! DING! You get the prize.

[SSanf]

Re-read my post and perhaps give me infractions, points, and times...LOL!! What if the system banned Mol!!

[RavensEye]

The system doesn't care if its a post or pm. I can't tell it to not do one or the other. If I could I would. I say the F word all the time. Check MWad out sometime.
I know that but it is still something that irks me, and as for MWAD I do not need to check it out considering..

Anyways those were all the concerns I had so, I will let it be.

[Tanya]

I was just looking in the infraction room... more banned words are emerging...
I fear we have hit the slippery slope already.

yipe!

[maphdet]

So is language a no no?
If so...Umm how will that be handled?

Again i am just asking because I am confused as can be.

[mol]

LOL!! What if the system banned Mol!!
That would be called 'vacation'.

[Sequoia]

It seems like censorship. Honestly. How did "falk" or "cripes" or "freakin'" ever hurt anyone?

And frankly, any parent who lets their kids run rampant on a message board (isn't this what MW Kids is for?) should be watching them.

This is getting a littley PC-crazy.

[mol]

I was just looking in the infraction room... more banned words are emerging...
I fear we have hit the slippery slope already.

yipe!
Really? Where are they?!!!

[SSanf]

We will have to see that you get a vacation once a year like any normal person has a right to. LOL!!

[mol]

It seems like censorship. Honestly. How did "falk" or "cripes" or "freakin'" ever hurt anyone?

And frankly, any parent who lets their kids run rampant on a message board (isn't this what MW Kids is for?) should be watching them.

This is getting a littley PC-crazy.
And I think you might be overanalyzing and not reading my first post. We are still going under the one rule of Respect. We need infraction levels. I asked for the communities help. If you all don't want a part in it then we will just take it back to the admin forum and figure it out.

*shrugs*

Whatever.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Oh, good grief.

Good grief yourself. You could have just answered my question. :)

[SSanf]

I think mountain...mole hill.. To get an infraction, you need to either be reported or the moderator has to stumble accross your post and take exception. Then, they think about if it deserves an infraction, considering the context. If they think it does, you get one but have a chance to appeal to the community at large if you don't think you deserve it and state your case. If you lose, just be good for a few days and it drops off your record. This seems like it will be pretty hard to get kicked out unless you are really trying.

What is everyone so worried about? Just because it is new?

And, I think the main thing is don't say F or any variation of it (like I just did). Don't say G-damn. And don't use what are commonly known as derogatory terms. And, since we all pretty much already know what they are and don't generally use them anyway, for the most part, this is no change.

Don't insult people any more than you already do. If you happen to do that, lay low and don't do it again for a few days. Don't get into a poop throwing contest and rack a bunch of infractions all up at the same time or you are in hot water.

[mol]

Good grief yourself. You could have just answered my question. :)
Pm's have never been censored. They are private. They were talking about the word filter that filters out the F-word and GD and I said there is no way to tell it to do it here on the boards and not in PM's. Hehe.

Good grief...this is cracking me up.

[Jenne]

mol:

I can see you growing frustrated because the intent of your OP isn't being met.

Again, all I can see is the "wizard" has been exposed...you're going to get a lot of concern on that front alone. Remember what happened? You're amazed, you're bewildered, and you wonder "why?"

I feel bad because you are giving us a great gift here, to be able to infiltrate what by rights, because you are site-god, is your territory. Be that as it may, our reactions are simply honest and concern for the good of not only our own welfare but that of the community as well. I see little else here, amongst those posting.

I don't think I belong in this thread, because I can't honestly say that I *know* how many points to give for "friggen" or for mentioning that so-and-so gave red karma. I don't agree with the infraction itself. I cannot give a point system for something I see as unfair. But I do thank you the opportunity to say so.

I hope this proves less frustrating for you. This might cause more trouble than its worth. Distributing the responsibility for modding people might come in an easier package...say, more admins to do the duty and weigh the choices.

Just mho. *bows out*

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Pm's have never been censored. They are private. They were talking about the word filter that filters out the F-word and GD and I said there is no way to tell it to do it here on the boards and not in PM's. Hehe.

Good grief...this is cracking me up.

You shouldn't poke fun at other peoples' confusion. We aren't all godly like you, you know.


:ballonsmi

[Anubis]

Me and my little devil duckie are invisible.. aren't we?... *sighs* ok..

[mol]

I think mountain...mole hill.. To get an infraction, you need to either be reported or the moderator has to stumble accross your post and take exception. Then, they think about if it deserves an infraction, considering the context. If they think it does, you get one but have a chance to appeal to the community at large if you don't think you deserve it and state your case. If you lose, just be good for a few days and it drops off your record. This seems like it will be pretty hard to get kicked out unless you are really trying.

What is everyone so worried about? Just because it is new?
Exactly...its the same as always...we (the admins) just thought everyone would want to get involved with the infraction assignment/points process.

[mol]

You shouldn't poke fun at other peoples' confusion. We aren't all godly like you, you know.


:ballonsmi
LMAO! =] It was purely joking...friendly kind.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

LMAO! =] It was purely joking...friendly kind.


Good. :)

[mol]

LMAO! =] It was purely joking...friendly kind.
I have to sleep. Work in the morning. Please, for the love of all that's holy, unholy, whatever matters most to you...read my post and stop thinking about rules and what you can and cannot say and just give us some help like I requested.

If it look like people are getting to paranoid by tomorrow I am closing the thread and moving it to the admin forum and then we will just get on with this thing that is MW that has made 2 changes...one we are going by a point system instead of pure opinion and two, you now have a forum to discuss moderations.

Night all.

93!

[maphdet]

Mol, I like the respect rule...But it is a Hard one to follow, as I do not know what it is that I will say that will disrespect someone else.

I have had that thought from day one. But it always seemed that somehow
MW made it possible to have a one rule like that.

I am not sure this new system of infractions will be helpfull...because it catogorizes respect. (ie language, posting of karma, and such) It becomes more than the respect rule.

sorry that did not help much or make as much sence as I'd hoped it would.

[SSanf]

Nite. I think everyone will like it once they are used to it and see that the world, as they know it, isn't coming to an end.

[lightdragon]

i dont think so, mol. i agree with dragons chest.

example:
if someone has given me red karma, and i vent about it i am treated the same way as if i had quoted from a private message.

i dont believe these two are equal.

but i said it before. its your forum, you do what you see fit
i`m agreeing with Czechwoods here on this aspect.
As for the infraction points for adult content. I would think 25 points (never expires) would be a little better. Or there should a division on what type of adult content is being issued here. Also the same would go for trolling. These IMO should have different infraction points.

[Mouse]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologise in advance if this has already been covered.

Would there be a way to take all threads from the Infraction forum so that they could not show up in the "new posts"? Or perhaps members could be contacted through PM if they incur infractions, and then if they feel they would like to discuss it they start their own thread in the infraction forum?

I understand why the system is set up the way it is at the moment, but I think that members should have that option, because IMO it seems like a form of public humiliation. Basically "Be good or we'll stand you on a street corner with a large sign" kinda thing. Am I making sense?

Sleep well.

[Shanti]

Me and my little devil duckie are invisible.. aren't we?... *sighs* ok..I see you!!
I dont know exactly what the sig rules are either. Ever since, 'keep it not to big', I have been confused!!LOL

[mol]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologise in advance if this has already been covered.

Would there be a way to take all threads from the Infraction forum so that they could not show up in the "new posts"? Or perhaps members could be contacted through PM if they incur infractions, and then if they feel they would like to discuss it they start their own thread in the infraction forum?

I understand why the system is set up the way it is at the moment, but I think that members should have that option, because IMO it seems like a form of public humiliation. Basically "Be good or we'll stand you on a street corner with a large sign" kinda thing. Am I making sense?

Sleep well.

I dont think so. I think it only allows all or nothing. We had it originally going into the admin forum where members couldnt see or respond. We decided this might be a good way to get the community involved in its own self-moderation again.

I see you!!
I dont know exactly what the sig rules are either. Ever since, 'keep it not to big', I have been confused!!LOL

Yah, me too. Haven't figured out the sig stuff yet and I am ignoring no one. Just hard to respond to everyone as fast as the posts are comign in.

Sleep. Night.

[demonique]

I would suggest: Opening a new thread with the intent to purposely continue an argument from a closed thread.
15 points - 10 days

I would second this.

[Mouse]

I'm not saying that we (the general MW population) shouldn't be alowed to respond to the moderations, because I think that's a great idea.
I just think it should be the individuals choice on whether or not their moderation is put out for discussion.

[Sequoia]

Oh, well... If you still have to be reported first, and if I can still say "WTF" and falk, I'm happy. :p I just got the wrong impression that you'd have some sort of Infraction Bot policing us. :lol: Can't argue with a line of code like you can argue with Xentor!

...

Well, you can try to argue with Xen, anyway. The bot would completely ignore you. :p :heartthro

[Shanti]

Oh, well... If you still have to be reported first, and if I can still say "WTF" and falk, I'm happy. :p I just got the wrong impression that you'd have some sort of Infraction Bot policing us. :lol: Can't argue with a line of code like you can argue with Xentor!

...

Well, you can try to argue with Xen, anyway. The bot would completely ignore you. :p :heartthro
From what I understand, you can be reported for WTF Just like you can be reported for F---- or friggin, fricked and so on. And thus you can get an infraction. No F substitutes.
Someone would just have to report you.

[Silvan]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.Oh come on.

You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute has caused me to notify the San Angeles Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand.

I see where this is all going, and I clearly need to leave before I eventually get kicked off. I hate "hugging" censorship, and if you're going to start handing out these little scraps of toilet paper over words like "frigging" or "cracker" then my fate is sealed already.

I have just relinquished my MW webspace, and will finish out my presence here once a couple of loose threads are tied up.

I will close by pointing out that while I am clearly positioned to get infractioned out of existence under this absurd new scheme, no one has ever complained to me about my language in the past, even though I have very definitely taken steps to circumvent the Playskool filter, and, I suppose, in so doing, to flip you the middle finger; much as I am doing right now. I conclude, therefore, that if anyone was offended, of injured parties, or any moderators, nobody was sufficiently offended to take any action, or make any complaint in public or in private.

I am taking this position pro-actively, to forestall the inevitable. I will not be able to get along in this brave new world you're cooking up, and neither will many of the most interesting people here, for that matter.

I say disrespect is in the eye of the beholder, as a private matter between offender and offendee. I think arbitrary rules such as those being discussed in this forum are the road to turning that glorious oak tree I once wrote you about into Pee Wee's Playhouse.

And yes, you can argue that MWAD is available as a platform for using all the naughty language one might desire. The problem is there is no real overlap between the two boards. I won't elaborate on that point here, but think about these two boards, and ask yourself if MWAD is MW uncensored, or something else entirely. All I will say on that is that MWAD is not a satisfactory redress to my grievance here, and its existence doesn't mitigate my vehement reaction to this new trend in any way.

(And yes, I probably violated the Fair Use policy by not quoting what movie the above text came from. Good. Throw another log on the fire, and get me infractioned out of this preschool playground post haste.)

[LostSheep]

Why? It's basically the same way we have always handled things...except now you have your say, too, eh?

except it's now discussed publicly, which i do not like at all.

i thought when it was announced, these would be private. That appears not to be the case. And isn't publicly displaying PMs for all to see an infraction in itself?
No displaying of private messages or karma without consent of the other person. Done. :eyebrow:
i don't like this. Don't like this at all.

[Agaliha]

Like I said. The F-Word and G-Damn is what we are concerned with. And we have them censored. So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.

Okay, I'm still reading all 12 pages of this thread. Not quite done yet, but...
Just curious.
Would posing "F***ing" be an infraction?
Would: b!tch?
Would: Sh!t?

A list of accpetable words and their accpetable substitutes would really be helpful.

Also Are my Gods and Goddesses a Week threads an infraction? If so I'll just scratch that idea. :(
Here are a few for you to read/see and decide:
Pele {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=137413)
Sheila-na-gig {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136898)
El {God of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136532)
I really hope I don't get any infractions for the ones already done, I've been doing them off and on for a year-ish with no peep from anyone. :2G: I'll be pissed.

[Shanti]

Okay, I'm still reading all 12 pages of this thread. Not quite done yet, but...
Just curious.
Would posing "F***ing" be an infraction?
Would: b!tch?
Would: Sh!t?

A list of accpetable words and their accpetable substitutes would really be helpful.


Also Are in Gods and Goddesses a Week threads an infraction? If so I'll just scratch that idea. :(
Here are a few for you to read/see and decide:
Pele {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=137413)
Sheila-na-gig {Goddess of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136898)
El {God of the Week} (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=136532)
I've been through the questions already.
F***ing is an infraction if someone reports it.
The others are not, I believe, unless used a lot.
Its just the F and GM word and their substitutes, if they get reported.

I personally know if I got an infraction for a substitute like friggen, I would not be happy, especially knowing there are tons of substitutes out there!

[Agaliha]

I've been through the questions already.
F***ing is an infraction if someone reports it.
The others are not, I believe, unless used a lot.
Its just the F and GM word and their substitutes, if they get reported.

I personally know if I got an infraction for a substitute like friggen, I would not be happy, especially knowing there are tons of substitutes out there!

Ok, then. Well I hope no one reports it :2G:

[Shanti]

Ok, then. Well I hope no one reports it :2G: Yeah, sure. As long as someone who doesn't agree with your perspective doesn't what to have a little fun at your expense.

[Fluffmeister]

Like I said. The F-Word and G-Damn is what we are concerned with. And we have them censored. So, the only way to use them is to get AROUND our censor...so that deserves an infraction.

You see, this is where the problems arise.

In the UK, the G-damn word is considered so mild that very few people would consider it unsuitable to use in front of kids. In fact, I was astonished when I jokingly used it on an American forum to be greeted with the cyber equivalent of shocked looks - I had absolutely no idea it was considered rude in America until very recently. I would have been a bit pissed off to have been banned for using what I considered a very mild and rather "jokey" swearword simply for being unaware of the difference in culture.

This is probably to do with the fact that the UK is far less Christian than the US; I would have thought that a international pagan-oriented forum would also be less Christian than the US, of course :)

However, in the UK what is unacceptable - and would be in most forum swear filters - are racist terms. Using the G word is the norm, using the F word is a bit risque but not that unusual, using racist terms would be an absolute no-no.

So what I'm saying is that MW risks becoming culturally biased by saying, in effect, "the G word is a no-no because Americans don't like it, but it's OK to use the W word because that only pisses off the Brits".

[Fluffmeister]

Look up TV PG-13 guidelines in Google then.

I have. As a non-US member, I hadn't come across TV PG-13 before. Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_rating_system) gives a list of ratings in the US, which includes PG-14 but not PG-13, and just gives ticks for moderate violence, swearing, sexual references and so on.

Any chance of a link that tells us foreigners what PG-13 actually means in terms of words we can and can't use? Come on guys, MW is an *international* forum and whereas these American terms may be second nature and obvious to you, they're pretty meaningless to those of us outside the US.

[Shanti]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.
I went and to a shower, got ready for bed but this one thing is really bothering me. I have to set the record straight for my own self.
I don't disrespect you!! This assumption is an insult to me.

My intent and using substitute F words is not anywhere close to disrespecting you or the rules in anyway.

In fact it is out of respect that I say friggin. I have an emotion, feeling to express that the F word is most appropriate for, in my speech. But, out of respect, I do not use the banned word. I use a substitute.

IMO this isn't banning a word, its banning an expression. Friggin and fricken and the like and even f--- are not swear words. They are just words or abbreviations of words that express the same emotion in a given statement as the real banned word would of provided, if it were not banned.

Just had to get that off my chest. Everywhere in life I go, even the docs office and people are using substitute f words. That's what they do to respect the people who don't like the real thing.

Its your forum, do as you may, but I don't use substitutes out of disrespect. That blanketed assumption or whatever was just insulting.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I have to agree with Shanti, I use the work friggin when I talk...I dont mean ****ing, when I say it, I mean frigging...whats so wrong with frigging??...and I also have to say after understanding this infaction system, I think it sucks. I think if it stays in place alot of people will be leaving.

[Kaylara]

People, it's very easy. If you get around the language filter. (ie, you still find a way to say the word, despite the filter.) that's an infraction. I'm not going to turn around and give infractions every time I see friggin' or shit or bitch. If you use a word that gets changed by the filter and then go back and make changes to the post in such a way that it posts the regular word, that's an infraction.

And I'm much meaner than you all. I said that if you go around that filter you should get 2/3 of the total amount of points available since it shows that you're specifically trying to create problems. (And to be honest, usually the only people who do this are trolls anyways.)

[Kaylara]

Oh come on.

You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute has caused me to notify the San Angeles Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand.

I see where this is all going, and I clearly need to leave before I eventually get kicked off. I hate "hugging" censorship, and if you're going to start handing out these little scraps of toilet paper over words like "frigging" or "cracker" then my fate is sealed already.

I have just relinquished my MW webspace, and will finish out my presence here once a couple of loose threads are tied up.

I will close by pointing out that while I am clearly positioned to get infractioned out of existence under this absurd new scheme, no one has ever complained to me about my language in the past, even though I have very definitely taken steps to circumvent the Playskool filter, and, I suppose, in so doing, to flip you the middle finger; much as I am doing right now. I conclude, therefore, that if anyone was offended, of injured parties, or any moderators, nobody was sufficiently offended to take any action, or make any complaint in public or in private.

I am taking this position pro-actively, to forestall the inevitable. I will not be able to get along in this brave new world you're cooking up, and neither will many of the most interesting people here, for that matter.

I say disrespect is in the eye of the beholder, as a private matter between offender and offendee. I think arbitrary rules such as those being discussed in this forum are the road to turning that glorious oak tree I once wrote you about into Pee Wee's Playhouse.

And yes, you can argue that MWAD is available as a platform for using all the naughty language one might desire. The problem is there is no real overlap between the two boards. I won't elaborate on that point here, but think about these two boards, and ask yourself if MWAD is MW uncensored, or something else entirely. All I will say on that is that MWAD is not a satisfactory redress to my grievance here, and its existence doesn't mitigate my vehement reaction to this new trend in any way.

(And yes, I probably violated the Fair Use policy by not quoting what movie the above text came from. Good. Throw another log on the fire, and get me infractioned out of this preschool playground post haste.)

This filter has been in place for years. It's not changing now. Instead, when the admins are going to warn someone, it actually has an effect instead of the person just going 'yeah, whatever' and continuing to do so. There's also a chance now for public redress of your complaints. To be honest I didn't think that this would be such a sticking point for people either, since it's been in place and working for years without it being an issue.

[Infinite Grey]

I think, then, you are probably using the wrong forum to rant in. Because this forum frowns upon the use of the F-word and GD. And we have tried using censoring to stop it and people who go around it are basically giving me the middle finger for trying to keep the place clean.



People, it's very easy. If you get around the language filter. (ie, you still find a way to say the word, despite the filter.) that's an infraction. I'm not going to turn around and give infractions every time I see friggin' or shit or bitch. If you use a word that gets changed by the filter and then go back and make changes to the post in such a way that it posts the regular word, that's an infraction.

And I'm much meaner than you all. I said that if you go around that filter you should get 2/3 of the total amount of points available since it shows that you're specifically trying to create problems. (And to be honest, usually the only people who do this are trolls anyways.)

What about equivalent words in other languages? :bigblue:

[Infinite Grey]

OH OH will there be an infraction for purposely derailing a thread?

[Kaylara]

Don't tempt me man. We don't allow those particular words in any language. If you use those words in another language and it gets reported or an admin sees it, you will get an infraction.

[Deranged Hermit]

Forgive me if I repeat anything, I read about halfway through the thread, and will read the rest when I can.
About getting around the filter, and the "creative" uses of F and GD... if there's a 12 yr old here who is going to be offended or scarred by anything that gets around the auto-filter concerning those 2 terms, then they should absolutely not be here. There is plenty in every forum every day that is far, far worse than seeing the word "friggin". And don't tell me I should be reporting it then, because I'm sure everyone here knows it's the truth, and that that's the nature of a public forum.

In regard to not posting anything from karma pokes or PM's...
I don't think karma pokes are really anything to get that worked up about, one way or another. People discuss karma pokes all the time, and I don't see any reason for there to be an infraction about it. :whatgives
As far as PM's though, yes I agree that posting all or part of a PM should be an infraction, in most cases. Of course if someone receives a PM and the sender asks that it be shared with the community, that's different. I have, on occasion, forwarded a PM to get another point of view about it or something. At the time, I didn't realize what a violation of privacy it was, since we all know that the admins can read everything, and that nothing on the internet is truly secure.
I was wondering, though, perhaps the "forward" option should be removed from PM's. Or replaced by an option that allows them to be forwarded to you (mol) only, as I did with a PM I received from a spammer once. Just a thought.

Well, I've probably said quite enough for now. There's my nickel's worth. ;)

[Kaylara]

OH OH will there be an infraction for purposely derailing a thread?

I like that. How many points would you give for it?

[Infinite Grey]

Don't tempt me man. We don't allow those particular words in any language. If you use those words in another language and it gets reported or an admin sees it, you will get an infraction.

What about "made up" profanity?

[Infinite Grey]

I like that. How many points would you give for it?


oh I don't know, 5?.. except if I do it of cuz... I iz 2 spetool 4 da rulz


on second thought... forget I even mentioned it... hun-tun I'm an idiot.

[Kaylara]

Forgive me if I repeat anything, I read about halfway through the thread, and will read the rest when I can.
About getting around the filter, and the "creative" uses of F and GD... if there's a 12 yr old here who is going to be offended or scarred by anything that gets around the auto-filter concerning those 2 terms, then they should absolutely not be here. There is plenty in every forum every day that is far, far worse than seeing the word "friggin". And don't tell me I should be reporting it then, because I'm sure everyone here knows it's the truth, and that that's the nature of a public forum.

Read up, I already mentioned that one.


In regard to not posting anything from karma pokes or PM's...
I don't think karma pokes are really anything to get that worked up about, one way or another. People discuss karma pokes all the time, and I don't see any reason for there to be an infraction about it. :whatgives
As far as PM's though, yes I agree that posting all or part of a PM should be an infraction, in most cases. Of course if someone receives a PM and the sender asks that it be shared with the community, that's different. I have, on occasion, forwarded a PM to get another point of view about it or something. At the time, I didn't realize what a violation of privacy it was, since we all know that the admins can read everything, and that nothing on the internet is truly secure.
I was wondering, though, perhaps the "forward" option should be removed from PM's. Or replaced by an option that allows them to be forwarded to you (mol) only, as I did with a PM I received from a spammer once. Just a thought.

Well, I've probably said quite enough for now. There's my nickel's worth. ;)


The problem is that people try to drag their karma pokes or pm's into threads to create drama, admonish people or publically humiliate them, or to derail the thread. If you're doing any of those above things, you'll get an infraction, period. And people shouldn't be posting pm's without the permission of the person who sent it.

BTW, the admins can't read your pm's unless you send them a copy.

[Infinite Grey]

how long does a bannin' last?

[Kaylara]

What about "made up" profanity?

Made up? Like, fork ewe?

[Kaylara]

how long does a bannin' last?
Well, we're figuring that out. Spamming and trolling will get you insta-banned and it will never be lifted. We're working on how long the other lengths will be. Do you have any suggestions?

[Infinite Grey]

Made up? Like, fork ewe?

like tooki you! or kiss my teddybear!

[Infinite Grey]

Well, we're figuring that out. Spamming and trolling will get you insta-banned and it will never be lifted. We're working on how long the other lengths will be. Do you have any suggestions?

not for very long... else there'll be a population decrease in no time. I only say this because the infractions so far have been for some pretty petty stuff... though that's probably just the breaking-in period... though some MWers will rack up a banning very quickly if the standards remain as they are.

[Deranged Hermit]

From what I understand, you can be reported for WTF Just like you can be reported for F---- or friggin, fricked and so on. And thus you can get an infraction. No F substitutes.
Someone would just have to report you.

:hairraise

does this mean I can't use these smilies anymore?

:wtf: _wth_ :wth: :bastard:

[Infinite Grey]

:hairraise

does this mean I can't use these smilies anymore?

:wtf: _wth_ :wth: :bastard:

bwahaha I'm goign to report ye!

[Kaylara]

:hairraise

does this mean I can't use these smilies anymore?

:wtf: _wth_ :wth: :bastard:

_wedgie_

Orly... Read what I already posted.

[Deranged Hermit]

I went and to a shower, got ready for bed but this one thing is really bothering me. I have to set the record straight for my own self.
I don't disrespect you!! This assumption is an insult to me.

My intent and using substitute F words is not anywhere close to disrespecting you or the rules in anyway.

In fact it is out of respect that I say friggin. I have an emotion, feeling to express that the F word is most appropriate for, in my speech. But, out of respect, I do not use the banned word. I use a substitute.

IMO this isn't banning a word, its banning an expression. Friggin and fricken and the like and even f--- are not swear words. They are just words or abbreviations of words that express the same emotion in a given statement as the real banned word would of provided, if it were not banned.

Just had to get that off my chest. Everywhere in life I go, even the docs office and people are using substitute f words. That's what they do to respect the people who don't like the real thing.

Its your forum, do as you may, but I don't use substitutes out of disrespect. That blanketed assumption or whatever was just insulting.


Well put, Shanti! :thumbsup: I also felt insulted at the assumption that I was trying to be disrespectful. I'm a lot more blunt than that, as most everyone here knows by now!

[Deranged Hermit]

_wedgie_

Orly... Read what I already posted.

well I was just kiddin' that time! ;) :D

[Fluffmeister]

BTW, the admins can't read your pm's unless you send them a copy.

Mods can't, admin can. This doesn't mean to say that admin *do* read them, just that they *can* read them. This is a feature of the vBulletin software, on which MW runs. Sometimes this is necessary for legal reasons.

[Kaylara]

Mods can't, admin can. This doesn't mean to say that admin *do* read them, just that they *can* read them. This is a feature of the vBulletin software, on which MW runs. Sometimes this is necessary for legal reasons.

I'm an admin here, I think I'd know whether or not I can read your pm's. On this site, admins can't read pm's. The only one who would be able to is Mol, and I highly doubt that he has the time or the inclination to go around reading people's pm's.

[Infinite Grey]

I'm an admin here, I think I'd know whether or not I can read your pm's. On this site, admins can't read pm's. The only one who would be able to is Mol, and I highly doubt that he has the time or the inclination to go around reading people's pm's.


I think that's what he meant

[StephanieAine]

The proselytizing infraction thing concerns me. Different people think proselytizing means different things. Certainly, there is *obvious* proselytizing, but sometimes there's a fine line, and maybe the person really isn't trying to convert anyone at all, but rather they're explaining something in context with a conversation. If an innocent party is accused of proselytizing and gets a 50 pt. permenant infraction, that would hardly be fair. How would the term 'proselytizing' be defined in terms of actual practice? And if an unfair infraction were to occur, what steps can be taken to have the infraction removed?

-Stephanie (who doesn't proselytize, but does explain and express her beliefs very openly)

[Kaylara]

The proselytizing infraction thing concerns me. Different people think proselytizing means different things. Certainly, there is *obvious* proselytizing, but sometimes there's a fine line, and maybe the person really isn't trying to convert anyone at all, but rather they're explaining something in context with a conversation. If an innocent party is accused of proselytizing and gets a 50 pt. permenant infraction, that would hardly be fair. How would the term 'proselytizing' be defined in terms of actual practice? And if an unfair infraction were to occur, what steps can be taken to have the infraction removed?

-Stephanie (who doesn't proselytize, but does explain and express her beliefs very openly)

This is why the admins still have the power to give or not give an infraction.
Do you honestly think that we just go around banning people for having discussions?

[Fluffmeister]

I think that's what he meant

That's exactly what I meant. I too doubt that Mol bothers reading PMs, but the software permits it - after all, in theory you might have a terrorist posting here who sends a PM arranging something. Under those circumstances, you probably *do* want to be able to read those PMs subsequently, which is why vBulletin makes this available to admin, who may be deemed legally responsible for posts and PMs made on their board.

It's not a major part of vBulletin, but since PMs are held unencrypted and admin can look directly at the database, it's possible to do; in the raw state it's not trivial, but there is a hack available to make it trivial:

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185026
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35425

[Anubis]

I'm not going to turn around and give infractions every time I see friggin' or shit or bitch.Well.. you might not.. but I got the impression that Mol will...
Makes me afraid to type anything now... _inabox_

[Torsgaarden]

......you are being watched..
heh heh

Saaaaay.. Can like if I get banned from here, then is my wife automatically banned too? Like - say If I say "Friggin'" too much(Which I do in regular conversation - and I type the way I talk-) Then will people from my ISP ..(Er, I mean - "IP",,Yeah 'All Users from SRTdotCOM have been banned..' 8O ) get banned, too? That'd suck! If the rules become so Nazi-ised that Ju gets banned just because she is whom she is - Then I get rousted, too, cuz I live here? ...........or not?

[Zibblsnrt]

Well, we're figuring that out. Spamming and trolling will get you insta-banned and it will never be lifted. We're working on how long the other lengths will be. Do you have any suggestions?

I've got one, actually - don't carve ban dates in stone. Seriously, don't, period. Unless you're planning on making all bans permanent, the duration of them should be entirely based on context and whatever the mods decide. I mean, if you've got two people who rack up their fiddy points, for the same offenses, one over three months and the other over three days, you've got two pretty different cases, and they should be treated that way.

[Zibblsnrt]

i don't like this. Don't like this at all.

You don't like a rule against making private comments public without mutual consent? For heaven's sake, why?

[StarPhoenix]

So to just get things straight in my mind things are basically the same as always?

You only get an infraction if someone reports you to an admin and the admin sees that it's a violation of the rules. Only new thing is that instead of being warned in a PM it's sent to a forum for discussion?

So basically if I haven't been warned by an admin for anything so far, and I keep posting the way I have been, I have nothing to worry about with this new system.

Seems fine to me, and I do like the fact that you can tell what the admins consider bad behaviour.

Though I do think the word filter infraction should only be for cases where you intentionally spell out a word the software can't filter. Like say that 'dirt' is a filtered word (I know it's not, but it's just example) so normally it would be replaced with 'sand' but you get around that by spelling it like this: d i r t. The word is still there, but not filtered. In which case is a violation, correct? I think fricken, friggen, f---, effin or any of those other substitutes should be allowed.

[Torsgaarden]

Didn't your daddy ever teach you that anything you put out there (here) in Cyberspace ISN'T private? I understand that even my posts in Mwad are subject to scrutinization by anyone with the means, but posting of any of it here would be wrong in many ways.. I suppose I crossed the line with that one, but the line is getting closer, lower, and thinner.

I gotta go before I GOTTA go..:)

[Phoenix_Blue]

The whole system won't solve anything, because the process of assigning the "infraction points" is as arbitrary as any other part of an admin's job.

The current system is imperfect, but this isn't going to fix it. An infraction system feels more like a solution in search of a problem. Therefore, I recommend zero points for everything and keeping the current process of deciding whom should be banned or not.

[Faeawyn]

So to just get things straight in my mind things are basically the same as always?

You only get an infraction if someone reports you to an admin and the admin sees that it's a violation of the rules. Only new thing is that instead of being warned in a PM it's sent to a forum for discussion?

So basically if I haven't been warned by an admin for anything so far, and I keep posting the way I have been, I have nothing to worry about with this new system.

Seems fine to me, and I do like the fact that you can tell what the admins consider bad behaviour.

Though I do think the word filter infraction should only be for cases where you intentionally spell out a word the software can't filter. Like say that 'dirt' is a filtered word (I know it's not, but it's just example) so normally it would be replaced with 'sand' but you get around that by spelling it like this: d i r t. The word is still there, but not filtered. In which case is a violation, correct? I think fricken, friggen, f---, effin or any of those other substitutes should be allowed.
Yes...THANK YOU GOD!! I think thats EXACTLY what Mol and Kay have been trying to say thru all 16 pages of this thread!!
Poor Mol....you try so hard to do whats right for us....you give us a voice to discuss our issues, and people still shred you for it. You have the patience of a saint.

[Sobeq]

Here's what I see. Everything is remaining basically the same, only the infractions are more public. This language filter and "persecution" has always been in place, just not public.

So basically, this is a large over-reaction to new awareness of an old circumstance. Perhaps we had all better take a step back and remember that. I was getting frustrated with the idea of censorship until someone -- I don't recall who, it could've been mol, could've been kaylara -- said that the filter was no different than it always had been.

I still don't understand what the official stance on the words such as "friggin'", "freakin'", etc. is. I know that I learned to use those words from one of my school teachers, as he censored himself for our benefit (he got frustrated with us often). My parents don't appreciate the word -- but then again, my parents don't appreciate crap, damn, or hell either, because we have a two year old in the house -- all of which were regularly said by teachers of mine. I also don't see freakin' as a substitute for the F-word. Oh, flippin' as well. I say flippin' alot. I don't see those as substitutes anymore so much as words which have taken on their own connotation -- the latter thanks to the "movie" (using the term loosely) Napoleon Dynamite. That movie was rated PG-13, if I'm not mistaken, and the word flippin' was frequently present, with the same force as gosh. (But that was an awful film, and we really oughtn't make decisions based on something that stank so badly).

True, swearing is vulgar, but it has its place. Sexuality is vulgar, and it has its place in society. Perhaps the place for heavy swearing (F word, GD, etc.) is not here. Then that's alright, I don't see why we can't all agree on that. If we keep light swearing sparse, I don't see why we can't all get along.

I don't, however, see why it is impossible to have a designated "Rant Thread" where people can swear and grumble to their hearts' content -- barring any insults, illegality, copyright infringement or publicization of private material. I have been at forums with PG ratings where there was a single thread designated for swearing and grumbling. There was a warning about language in the thread title, and a warning in the first post that language will be present in the thread.

I understand that the F-word will not be allowed, and GD will not be allowed. If excessive language will be an issue, put it in the proper place. End of story.

Summary: I still want to know what the official opinion of "friggin'", "flippin'" and "freakin'" are. I think it might be wise to have a rant thread where people can swear every three words, with fair warning. I also think that the reaction to this thread is nothing more than a mob mentality. A few people got upset over a misunderstanding and many people blindly sympathized and upset themselves, and it's now starting to snowball. If I'm wrong, I apologize to anyone I've offended.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Personally I really like this new system. Nothing is going to be different in what people are getting modded for - it's just that now you have a place to discuss it openly. That's a good idea in my mind. It allows the community to have a greater say in what is considered offensive and mod-worthy and I think it allows greater prevention in someone being moderated because someone just plain doesn't like them.

As for ideas about how the infractions system should work, I saw some suggestions that definitely need to be included that weren't listed in mol's original post. So here are my thoughts:

Too large a sig: 1 point 7 days
Publically discussing karma: 1 point 7 days (I find this to be a completely seperate issue from discussing PMs publically and should thus be treated seperately. Someone who says, gee thanks for that red-karma, that was real mature, shouldn't be treated to the same type of "punishment" as someone who discusses a private conversation.)
Insults, name-calling, and flame wars: 5 points 15 days (I think a slightly harder line should be taken on the flame wars thing, but I'm not sure how that should be handled. When I think of a flame-war, I'm thinking of two people just out and out attacking each other repeatedly in a thread which hasn't been reported until after it's completely taken over the thread)
Language filter: 2 points 7 days (I really don't think this should be made into a huge deal, unless it's something done on a regular basis and no attempt is made to watch one's own language. We all should be doing this in real life in my opinion, but it shouldn't be something that we should be excessively worried about either if it slips out occassionally. I personally use child-friendly curse words in my offline life and don't use any curse words here. I don't think it's an issue of the morality police, it's just being sensitive to other people. And not using G-damn isn't just a Christian issue as has been suggested. To me it's disrespectful to that religion, which last I checked was a big no-no. After all, you don't go around saying Hades-damn, do you? Why should it be acceptable to use one god's name to curse when you wouldn't do it with another?)
Proselytizing: 25 points that never expire (To further explain what I see the definition of proselytizing, since several people have asked what is meant by this, I mean actively posting with the intent to try to convert people. Posts explaining your religious beliefs, new or within the context of any active thread, or if asked is not proselytizing. Saying my god is better than yours and shall smite down any who do not follow is proselytizing.)
Violating fair use and copyright laws: 25 points that never expire (I actually thought about saying this should be an automatic ban, because as far as I'm aware, this is against federal law in just about every country. If you're violating the law, and possibly put MW at risk of being shut down you shouldn't get a second chance. However, some people just don't realize that they are in fact violatin