Medieval Documents

[Naillosotarrain]

Have you ever wondered what happened to all the medieval documents and why they are so rare?

[Danustouch]

Hmmmmmmmmm...yes...and no.

Ever see the movie "Nostradamus"...in that movie, they showed them burning tons of medeivil manuscripts. Wouldnt' surprise me that they would have done that at the time. Many things that people wrote during that time (such as things by galileo), were considered heresy.

I also believe that the Vatican probably has vast stores of medeivil documents. I think they probably confiscated a lot of manuscripts and documents during the medievil era, since there really wasn't much of a separation of church and state in europe at the time. I know for a fact, that the Vatican keeps some of them.

[Mnemosyne]

Now this is what I have heard. I studied Latin when I was younger. In class, I heard that there are loads of medieval documents in Latin still to be translated. I heard that scholars have not translated them, because they do not have much historical or literary significance; thus, they are boring. They are mainly about the Christian faith. hhmmm. I suppose we could find historical significance to these documents if we translated some.

[Naillosotarrain]

All of that is accurate, yes; but there is also this little tidbit, and why you don't really find personal correspondance from the time.

Paper and Vellum were expensive and a pain to make. Vellum was scraped and reused till it was no longer able to be used in that manner. They were then used as the precourser to modern toilet paper. A rather inoble end to many a correspondance letter.

Of course this was only used by the noble class and not the peasants, but it was done. Manuscripts which were the medieval times books were often used in fires due to rampant illiteracy, churchmen were the primary literate group; even many nobles were illiterate and used clergymen to write their papers and documents as the clergy were literate and well trusted.

Most people that were literate back then were multilingual and could speak as many as up to 6 - 9 seperate languages. They were people who dealt with large groups that were very diverse due to trade or politics, and thus had to be capable of communicating with those people. Even illiterate nobles frequently knew more than one language.

I don't think that men did not so much want women educated or felt that they were less intelligent, as they did not wish a partner that was better educated than them or that made them feel stupid. Men of this time period spent their lives training for war and combat defense, unless they were slated for the clergy most of their time was spent outdoors training their bodies; their was no real time to train their minds as well. Very few people like to have partenrs that vastly outstrip them and after being trained to be a leader and being trained to be the strong one, it would cause petty jealousy and insecurity to have a partner that was educated so much more than they were.



Oh, and on this note, does any have any toilet paper???

[Mnemosyne]

Fabulous information, Nailosotarrain. I had no idea that people living in the medieval period were so multilingual. How did they pick up so many languages? So we have gathered that there are not an immense amount of medieval documents around. When are you guys suggesting that the medieval period ended and the Renaissance began? I know scholars debate about this question constantly.

[Yvonne Belisle]

They picked up the languages from traders and also for nobles they had to deal with delegates from other countries sometimes forming alliances also when they went on campains it pays to know the language of your enemy. The Norse knew vast numbers of languages since they often learned the languages of thier slaves from raids and they had an extensive trade system all the way to the Bysintine Empire. Sorry about my crummy spelling.:)

[kblackthorne]

Have you ever wondered what happened to all the medieval documents and why they are so rare?

Do you really mean all medieval documents? Or do you mean a specific sub-set?

Many medieval documents are "rare" because there is only one of them -- the moveable type press wasn't common yet, so they were hand-written.

And they're old. Old things are fragile.

But to imply that "most" medieval documents are somehow "missing" would be misleading. Tons of medieval documents exist. They tend to be located in Europe, often in their original repository or a private library or collection. Yes, some have been lost -- flood, fire, etc. But most public records still exist. (The majority of these have never been translated into English -- or modern English, for those from Britain.)

As Naillosotarrain pointed out, many private records were destroyed as a matter of course -- paper, parchment, & vellum being expensive. And yet, a remarkable amount of private correspondence still exists, as well.

All these supposedly "missing" documents are the things historians use & work with.

The only place they are truly "rare" is in the United States... because there weren't permanent European settlements here yet!

[Earthcup]

I've heard of the Vatican's secret library before as well. If it's true it makes me wish I could walk through walls!

*maybe even find the complete works of Sappho!*

There were a few women who wrote then. Julian of Norwich comes to mind. I have her book around here somewhere but I haven't had a chance to take a good look at it....

[Danustouch]

I think it would be a fair assumption that the Vatican probably has a Vast private library. Most of what they hold there, I would guess, are things which pertain to early Christianity, and Christian thought. Books of the Gnostics, and other "heretical" groups.

Speaking of public records, and how they are still largely available..did you know that in the mid 1800's, England mandated that all Irish Census Records were to be burned? Nobody knows for sure why. But...let me tell you...it sure makes work hard for the Ireland Geneologist :(

[Earthcup]

You're kidding! No wonder I'm having trouble! I've been trying to find a church in Belfast but other than a marriage certificate there's no record of the church ever existing it seems.....:(

[Danustouch]

What is the name of the Church? I may be able to help you. I have a cousin who works in Belfast Hospital.

[Earthcup]

oohh.... I have it written down somewhere...

I'm 99% sure it's St. Anne's Episcopal Cathedral in Belfast. I know it existed pre-American Revolution.... I haven't been able to find any info on it though. I was hoping if I could find the church I might be able to find more church documents.

[Danustouch]

What you need to find out, is what Catholic Diocese Belfast is. Chances are, the Diocese there would have the record, even if the Church no longer existed. You have to find out what Parish Belfast is in.

What I would reccomend, is using the message board options (which are free), on geneology.com, and ancestry.com. click on message board (or on geneology.com, community, then message boards), Choose search by location, then type in Belfast. There should be a message board for Belfast. Then, you type in your query. "looking for records from a St. Annes Church, in Belfast, pre colonial era. Anyone know where I could find such records?".

Or..you could just go to www.google.com, and type in "Belfast- Catholic ArchDiocese". And that should give you the info. Then, if there's a website for that, you'd just look for a button for "geneology", or...just contact the archdiocese, and put in your request. Be Aware, once you find out if the record is housed there, there MAY be a fee to find your records.

[Danustouch]

Here It is.

http://www.stormont.btinternet.co.uk/stannes.htm

All I did was type in "St. Annes Church + Belfast" into the Google search engine. It's no longer St. Annes, I think...

Anyway...it looks like it may have burned at one point, so the records may have been destroyed. But if you read into the site, you might be able to find out what Archdiocese it's in...and contact them to see if there are any remaining records there.

[Danustouch]

Ooops..you said Episcopal.

the site I gave you was for Church of Ireland, sorry. You might want to check out the Church of Ireland Homepage. They have a link about Geneology.

http://www.ireland.anglican.org/home.html


Maybe this is the one? Maybe worth looking into....

[Danustouch]

Well..after thought, it would seem to me that at this point, your best option would be to post a message on a Belfast Message Board at one of the Geneology Boards...

Either www.ancestry.com
www.Rootsweb.com
www.Geneology.com

What is confusing me right now, is that You claimed St. Annes was an Episcopal Church. But when I clicked on the site, i read through it, and followed the links to an Anglican (Church of Ireland Page)That was enough to confuse me right there! LOL. Then, when I tried a differen't route on the search engines...typing in "Episcopal Churches, Belfast", almost all of the links I followed (with the exception of the Free Episcopal Church, which is quite differen't), ALSO led me to Anglican sources (such as the diocese website for the Anglican Church). So maybe Episcopal Churches, at some point, merged with Church of Ireland, or BECAME Church of Ireland there?

So what I would do..is post a message, with the info you have on the church...and see what comes up. I've been helped so much on message boards such as this. I wish you much luck!

[Azure]

The scraped and reused pieces of parchment and vellum were called palimsests. Many still exist, and since they tended to rotate the sheet to write the secondary message, it is still possible to read some of the original texts, but it's very difficult. My undergrad advisor, a prof of medieval lit, worked for the Vatican library for years. There is still an abundance of medieval material out there - as Katherine points out rightly, much of it still hasn't been translated.

If you want to look at what medieval correspondence looked like, dig up a copy of the Paston Letters. These are the saved correspondences of 3 generations of an early 15th century English family.

In terms of correspondence, you also have to consider in a society where the majority are not literate, and where written language was intended to be read out loud rather than silently, the mode of address and level of intimacy is likely to be quite different than today.

Earthcup, part of my family came from Belfast originally too, but I don't knowthe details - my cousin is trying to find out.

[Earthcup]

lol That's what the marriage certificate says, Episcopal Cathedral! It figures my family wouldn't go along with the majority of the country!

I've got it traced back past the American Revolution from two of my grandparents and to the 1830's from another. My paternal grandfather doesn't even remember his grandpa's name though! lol I need to go visit his sister and pick her brain.....

I think I've posted a few times on those sites but I'll try again. Thanks for going to so much trouble!

It would seem that in church correspondence both missing secular and heretical texts might be mentioned, if for no other reason than to explain why they're banned. It seems a shame that the Vatican is always so secretive about documents they have or find....

[Danustouch]

Oddly enough, Earthcup, I just received a package from my Relatives in Ireland, today. Including photos, as well as a pamphlet from their own Church, in County Cavan (diocese of Kilmore). They are Church of Ireland. And the top of the pamphlet says.."Church of Ireland, Anglican-Episcopal Cathedral of St.....".

So...It appears that at one point, the Anglican and Episcopal churches DID merge, in Ireland to form the "Church Of Ireland". So the St. Annes Cathedral link I gave you...is indeed the Church that you are looking for. It has simply been renamed!

Good Luck. Hope this has helped!

[kblackthorne]

I was always under the impression that "Episcopal" is the name the Aglican Church got in the post-Revolution US -- and as such wouldn't be found in colonial-era Ireland.

Then again, the word simply means "of, or having to do with, Bishops". Maybe it was used one way then, and another way after "The Church of England" was no longer a good name to use in the New World? ~ponders~

Thanks, Azure: The Paston letters. Written on acid-free paper made from rags. Somewhere around here I have a book that is basically a history of marriage & family life... and it draws rather heavily for certain periods on the Paston letters. (Or maybe it's two books I'm thinking of... Need more bookshelves, so all our books can be visible & quickly found!)

And maybe you can answer for me: I know that in the 1800's it was common (to save paper) to "cross" the lines on a single letter, getting 4 "pages" of writing on 2 surfaces. Was this done (as well as the scraping & bleaching) prior to that as well?

In my husband's family relics, we have a couple crossed letters. I really don't know how they read them... it must be a skill, and I don't have it!

[Earthcup]

Wow! That's great! Thanks for all the trouble you went to!

[Azure]

Katherine -
I've seen references to that particular form - also referred to as a type of palimsest, dating to at least the eighteenth century, but not before. I had a professor who implied, but never quite came out and said, that those were more American that European, but I don't have any documentation for that.

[MasterMoon]

I was always under the impression that "Episcopal" is the name the Aglican Church got in the post-Revolution US -- and as such wouldn't be found in colonial-era Ireland.

Then again, the word simply means "of, or having to do with, Bishops". Maybe it was used one way then, and another way after "The Church of England" was no longer a good name to use in the New World? ~ponders~

The church that Earthcup was looking for, was in Belfast, Ireland. According to a pamphlet sent to me by my relatives in Ireland, Their Church, The Church of St. Fethlimidh, is "Church of Ireland (Anglican:Episcopal)". This is what it says on the cover of the leaflet. Inside the leaflet, it says that the churches which it is in full communion with ...are the Church of England, Church in Wales, Episcopal Church in Scotland, Anglican Church of Canada, Episcopal Church of the United States of America, as well as many other Episcopal and Anglican Churches.".

This to me, implies that at some point, there came a merging of the two denominations.

St. Annes Cathedral in Belfast, according to the link which I gave Earthcup, is now called by another name. So this would suggest to me, that again, the Church has evolved, and perhaps integrated.

[MasterMoon]

Oops..I did this post under my husbands Identity. Sorry..It really is me, Danustouch...lol.

[Danustouch]

This is a website having to do with the history of the Church of Ireland:

http://www.angelfire.com/biz3/staidans/CIHistory1.html

And Another (this one providing another reference to both Anglican and Episcopal)

http://www.angelfire.com/biz3/staidans/

[kblackthorne]

This to me, implies that at some point, there came a merging of the two denominations.

Wasn't meaning to say that they'd ever really split -- just that the names had been changed to protect the Tories.

I trust you all to know more than I here, since you've done your homework & I haven't. I just thought it was interesting how what I was taught differed from the facts you (plural) presented.