Carla O'Harris
September 1st, 2006, 01:23 PM
Since I referenced the concept of "tuirgen" on the Karma thread, I thought I would provide some of the materials behind this word, and some of the debate that exists :
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=12234
Sanas Cormaic gives six alternative definitions for the
word "tuirigin", "a word that has a great many meanings
but an oddly blank record of employment", as John Minahane
remarks drily in his fascinating and maddening book, _The
Christian Druids: On the 'filid' or philosopher-poets
of Ireland_.
The entry for "tuirigin" in DIL says:
A word occuring chiefly in glossaries, and found only
rarely in literary texts, where its use seems in most
cases artificial. The meanings assigned by glossators
are as follows.
(a) king
(b) judge, brehon
(c) illegitimate birth; bastard (?)
(d) pillar
(e) tongue
DIL makes no mention of rebirth or reincarnation, or of any
kind of birth other than the illegitimate, yet the following
portion of the Sanas Cormaic entry for "tuirigin" seems to
imply a more speculative concept:
Aliter: tuirigin .i. torracht-gein .i. gein torracht
torroich as gach aigniud i n-alaill .i. gein in firaicnid,
ut Facht[n]ai mac Senchai dixit: Fuirem gein torrachta
doreith aicned n-oll o Adam co n-imt[h]eit tre gach
n-aimsir n-adamra co betha brath. Berid aicned enbethae
di cach duil derb deisin oen connoe .i. coss in duine
ndedenaig bias co bruindi brathae.
This is Minahane's translation:
Alternatively 'tuirigin' means "overtaking birth"
i.e. a successive birth that passes from every
nature into another i.e. the birth of the true
nature. As Fachtna mac Senchada said:
"Being is a transitory birth that has coursed
the expanse of nature from Adam and marvellously
goes through all time to the world's doom. It
brings a nature of one birth to each authentic
thing as far as the lone last man." (i.e. to
the last person alive on the brink of judgment.)
Minahane's translation is not the last word, as he himself
admits in pointing out the uncertainty of the key word
"fuirem".
Some other aspects of the debate can be accessed at the bottom of this page :
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&D=0&T=0
http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/750212 says,
"Tuirgen" is mentioned in Cormac's Glossary. Yes, the actual authorship of Cormac is questionable, but what's written about Tuirgen is what matters more: "The birth that passes from every nature into another; a transitory birth which has traversed all nature from Adam and goes through every wonderful time down to the world's doom, giving the nature of one life."
Caitlin and John Matthews define it as "a circuit of births" and "transmigration of souls."
At first, it sounds like it might refer to reincarnation? Or is it describing a kind of shamanic shape-shifting or time-travel?
I think it could even be interpreted as a style of storytelling as in the narrative of a poet-chronicler. Remember that in the days when entire genealogies and histories were recited from memory, the poets were human vessels that contained details passed down to their memory bank from lifetimes that extended way beyond their own in years.
One example is Fintan's recitation. Another is Tuan Mac Carill'S Story.
Here is some further commentary :
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=13883
David:
> Apparently Minahane referred torracht to tárrachtain "reaching,
> arriving at; overtaking, coming on, pursuing;...", although
> I couldn't find the variant torracht in the lengthy entry of
> tárrachtain in DIL. Or he connected it with toracht "succession,
> progress; arriving at, coming to", although this word usually
> only has a single r.
Minahane is particularly caught up in the idea that the filid
were constantly punning and playing with words and texts to
create double, or layered, meanings. With that bias, he is
not content to let "torracht" in "torracht-gein" and "gein
torracht" be the selfsame word. I think that explains his
interpretation of the first instance as "overtaking birth"
rather than simply "successive birth".
I'm content to read both instances of "torracht" as identical
with the word "toracht(a)" defined by DIL as "cyclic, successive;
circular, rounded".
> The verb torroich seems to belong to do·roich "to reach, come to",
> although again the paradigmatical forms of it always have a single r.
> But maybe the double r here is due to a nasalising relative clause
> i.e. "a reaching-birth by which he/it reaches from one nature the
> other" (this is bad English, I know, but I tried to be as literal
> as possible, and I couldn't find anything better at the moment).
An interesting solution, but the syntax seems a little forced then.
Minahane's "a successive birth that passes from every nature into
another" has the virtue of straightforwardness.
to which there is a reply on the succeeding page :
Dennis wrote:
> Minahane is particularly caught up in the idea that the filid
> were constantly punning and playing with words and texts to
> create double, or layered, meanings.
I have no problem with this attitude in principal, just the opposite if you think of I2T.
which becomes more interesting and illuminating here :
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15149
Getting back to trying to make sense of the text:
Cormac (quoting Fachtna mac Senchai):
> Fuirem gein torrachta doreith aicned n-oll o Adam
> co n-imt[h]eit tre gach n-aimsir n-adamra co betha
> brath. Berid aicned enbethae di cach duil derb
> deisin oen connoe
Minahane translates:
> "Being is a transitory birth that has coursed
> the expanse of nature from Adam and marvellously
> goes through all time to the world's doom. It
> brings a nature of one birth to each authentic
> thing as far as the lone last man."
David points to the trouble spots:
> I have no idea what fuirem would be and I am rather uncertain
> about deisin and connoe.
Minahane says "I translate the word 'fuirem' as 'being' because
the context seems to demand it." Hmmmmm.
Sanas Cormaic glosses "fuirim" (probably the same word?):
665. Fuirim .i. ellach aisti.
(i.e. composition/putting together of a poem)
DIL follows this, s.v. "fuirim, fuirem", with question marks:
(vn. of fo-rím-?) composing in metre (?)
Minahane says that O'Davoren glosses "fuirem" as "tabairt"
(= giving), although I haven't verified this.
If we take "fuirem = composition of a poem" as a metaphor,
I suppose we could we read (and paraphrase) the first line:
"The cyclic birth which runs through all nature from Adam
and that goes forward through every marvellous time until
doomsday (consists in) "fuirem" (which is the combining of
simple parts into a harmonious and meaninful whole, as in
a poem)."
It's a guess, anyway!
> Deisin = de-sin? connoe prob. = co nnoe; noe is a poetic word
> for "man".
Those are the likely suspects. DIL gives "disin = hence, then",
with examples from the glosses, s.v. "de", vol. D, p. 145, 15.
Minahane seems to understand "oen connoe" as an idiom, lit.
"one to a man", but really "to the last man", precisely the
meaning given by the gloss "cos in duine ndedenaig". Compare
the English "they died to a man" = every last one of them died.
Taking the second line bit by bit:
Berid (it brings/carries) aicned (nature/quality/essence)
enbethae (of one life) di (leg. "do" = to) cach (each/every)
duil (created thing/being/element) derb (certain/definite)
deisin (from that = thus, hence) oen connoe (to the last one)
"It brings the essence of a single life to every particular
creature in that way, down to the last person."
If this is anything like an accurate translation of the lines
attributed to Fachtna, what was he talking about? Some kind of
transmigration, or something even more subtle? Or something
theologically completey different? How does this compare to
Julius Caesar's statement (De Bello Gallico, VI, 14) that the
druids taught that the soul does not perish, but after death
passes from one body to another (in primis hoc volunt persuadere,
non interire animas, sed ab aliis post mortem transire ad alios).
Dennis
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15254
> Sanas Cormaic glosses "fuirim" (probably the same
> word?):
>
> 665. Fuirim .i. ellach aisti.
> (i.e. composition/putting together of a
> poem)
>
along the lines of "putting together" might this refer
to something less mystical, like "conception", and
thus he's talking about an un-ending line of descent,
via conception/procreation, from adam to the very last
man?
-dan
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15349
Dan wrote:
> along the lines of "putting together" might this refer
> to something less mystical, like "conception", and
> thus he's talking about an un-ending line of descent,
> via conception/procreation, from adam to the very last
> man?
I agree that the line of "successive birth" running from
Adam to doomsday seems to be more about procreation than
transmigration. But what is meant by calling this the
"birth of the true nature/essence" ("gein in fíraicnid")
and the carrying on of "aicned énbethae" (nature/essence
of a single life)?
Dennis
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15454
The following is from Prof. Maris Fiondella, the wife of one
of our members. She has been immersed in Augustine of late,
and happened to be looking over her husband's shoulder when
he was reading this thread:
Is it possible that the writer refers to the act of Creation,
understood in something like Augustinian terms? For Augustine,
Creation "by the Word" was an act of speech - by extension,
perhaps like the composing of a poem. He construed John 1.3
to mean that the world was analogically structured: real
relations of likeness pertained between God, his creatures,
and their history. So, for Augustine, Creation "speaks" of
its Creator; each human being is made to God's image. Human
history is analogically structured: OT persons and events are
understood as real historical entities, but also as "types"
foreshadowing their NT fulfillments. Perhaps the passage refers
to this idea of the analogical = the order of divine likeness
within corporeal and temporal difference.
Here, for reference, is another *very* provisional translation
of the passage under consideration:
Or, "tuirigin" means successive/cyclic birth, that is,
a successive birth that passes from every nature into
another, i.e. the birth of the true nature. Thus
Fachtnae mac Senchai said: "The cycle of birth which runs
through all nature from Adam and that goes forward through
every marvellous time until doomsday (is like) the unity
of a poem. In that way it brings the essence of a single
life to every particular creature, down to the last person."
D.
I quote extensively here for two reasons :
1. Tuirigin/tuirgen is, as should be obvious, a fascinating concept.
2. There has been discussion that began with a simple "debunking" of the Matthews' interpretation, arguing that they had pulled it out of thin air, and this simple antithesis did not stay, but ended up developing into much more interesting material. So that should be a warning to giving too much weight to anyone who comes around and loudly proclaims a debunking. Sometimes examination will yield extremely interesting nuances.
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=12234
Sanas Cormaic gives six alternative definitions for the
word "tuirigin", "a word that has a great many meanings
but an oddly blank record of employment", as John Minahane
remarks drily in his fascinating and maddening book, _The
Christian Druids: On the 'filid' or philosopher-poets
of Ireland_.
The entry for "tuirigin" in DIL says:
A word occuring chiefly in glossaries, and found only
rarely in literary texts, where its use seems in most
cases artificial. The meanings assigned by glossators
are as follows.
(a) king
(b) judge, brehon
(c) illegitimate birth; bastard (?)
(d) pillar
(e) tongue
DIL makes no mention of rebirth or reincarnation, or of any
kind of birth other than the illegitimate, yet the following
portion of the Sanas Cormaic entry for "tuirigin" seems to
imply a more speculative concept:
Aliter: tuirigin .i. torracht-gein .i. gein torracht
torroich as gach aigniud i n-alaill .i. gein in firaicnid,
ut Facht[n]ai mac Senchai dixit: Fuirem gein torrachta
doreith aicned n-oll o Adam co n-imt[h]eit tre gach
n-aimsir n-adamra co betha brath. Berid aicned enbethae
di cach duil derb deisin oen connoe .i. coss in duine
ndedenaig bias co bruindi brathae.
This is Minahane's translation:
Alternatively 'tuirigin' means "overtaking birth"
i.e. a successive birth that passes from every
nature into another i.e. the birth of the true
nature. As Fachtna mac Senchada said:
"Being is a transitory birth that has coursed
the expanse of nature from Adam and marvellously
goes through all time to the world's doom. It
brings a nature of one birth to each authentic
thing as far as the lone last man." (i.e. to
the last person alive on the brink of judgment.)
Minahane's translation is not the last word, as he himself
admits in pointing out the uncertainty of the key word
"fuirem".
Some other aspects of the debate can be accessed at the bottom of this page :
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&D=0&T=0
http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/750212 says,
"Tuirgen" is mentioned in Cormac's Glossary. Yes, the actual authorship of Cormac is questionable, but what's written about Tuirgen is what matters more: "The birth that passes from every nature into another; a transitory birth which has traversed all nature from Adam and goes through every wonderful time down to the world's doom, giving the nature of one life."
Caitlin and John Matthews define it as "a circuit of births" and "transmigration of souls."
At first, it sounds like it might refer to reincarnation? Or is it describing a kind of shamanic shape-shifting or time-travel?
I think it could even be interpreted as a style of storytelling as in the narrative of a poet-chronicler. Remember that in the days when entire genealogies and histories were recited from memory, the poets were human vessels that contained details passed down to their memory bank from lifetimes that extended way beyond their own in years.
One example is Fintan's recitation. Another is Tuan Mac Carill'S Story.
Here is some further commentary :
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=13883
David:
> Apparently Minahane referred torracht to tárrachtain "reaching,
> arriving at; overtaking, coming on, pursuing;...", although
> I couldn't find the variant torracht in the lengthy entry of
> tárrachtain in DIL. Or he connected it with toracht "succession,
> progress; arriving at, coming to", although this word usually
> only has a single r.
Minahane is particularly caught up in the idea that the filid
were constantly punning and playing with words and texts to
create double, or layered, meanings. With that bias, he is
not content to let "torracht" in "torracht-gein" and "gein
torracht" be the selfsame word. I think that explains his
interpretation of the first instance as "overtaking birth"
rather than simply "successive birth".
I'm content to read both instances of "torracht" as identical
with the word "toracht(a)" defined by DIL as "cyclic, successive;
circular, rounded".
> The verb torroich seems to belong to do·roich "to reach, come to",
> although again the paradigmatical forms of it always have a single r.
> But maybe the double r here is due to a nasalising relative clause
> i.e. "a reaching-birth by which he/it reaches from one nature the
> other" (this is bad English, I know, but I tried to be as literal
> as possible, and I couldn't find anything better at the moment).
An interesting solution, but the syntax seems a little forced then.
Minahane's "a successive birth that passes from every nature into
another" has the virtue of straightforwardness.
to which there is a reply on the succeeding page :
Dennis wrote:
> Minahane is particularly caught up in the idea that the filid
> were constantly punning and playing with words and texts to
> create double, or layered, meanings.
I have no problem with this attitude in principal, just the opposite if you think of I2T.
which becomes more interesting and illuminating here :
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15149
Getting back to trying to make sense of the text:
Cormac (quoting Fachtna mac Senchai):
> Fuirem gein torrachta doreith aicned n-oll o Adam
> co n-imt[h]eit tre gach n-aimsir n-adamra co betha
> brath. Berid aicned enbethae di cach duil derb
> deisin oen connoe
Minahane translates:
> "Being is a transitory birth that has coursed
> the expanse of nature from Adam and marvellously
> goes through all time to the world's doom. It
> brings a nature of one birth to each authentic
> thing as far as the lone last man."
David points to the trouble spots:
> I have no idea what fuirem would be and I am rather uncertain
> about deisin and connoe.
Minahane says "I translate the word 'fuirem' as 'being' because
the context seems to demand it." Hmmmmm.
Sanas Cormaic glosses "fuirim" (probably the same word?):
665. Fuirim .i. ellach aisti.
(i.e. composition/putting together of a poem)
DIL follows this, s.v. "fuirim, fuirem", with question marks:
(vn. of fo-rím-?) composing in metre (?)
Minahane says that O'Davoren glosses "fuirem" as "tabairt"
(= giving), although I haven't verified this.
If we take "fuirem = composition of a poem" as a metaphor,
I suppose we could we read (and paraphrase) the first line:
"The cyclic birth which runs through all nature from Adam
and that goes forward through every marvellous time until
doomsday (consists in) "fuirem" (which is the combining of
simple parts into a harmonious and meaninful whole, as in
a poem)."
It's a guess, anyway!
> Deisin = de-sin? connoe prob. = co nnoe; noe is a poetic word
> for "man".
Those are the likely suspects. DIL gives "disin = hence, then",
with examples from the glosses, s.v. "de", vol. D, p. 145, 15.
Minahane seems to understand "oen connoe" as an idiom, lit.
"one to a man", but really "to the last man", precisely the
meaning given by the gloss "cos in duine ndedenaig". Compare
the English "they died to a man" = every last one of them died.
Taking the second line bit by bit:
Berid (it brings/carries) aicned (nature/quality/essence)
enbethae (of one life) di (leg. "do" = to) cach (each/every)
duil (created thing/being/element) derb (certain/definite)
deisin (from that = thus, hence) oen connoe (to the last one)
"It brings the essence of a single life to every particular
creature in that way, down to the last person."
If this is anything like an accurate translation of the lines
attributed to Fachtna, what was he talking about? Some kind of
transmigration, or something even more subtle? Or something
theologically completey different? How does this compare to
Julius Caesar's statement (De Bello Gallico, VI, 14) that the
druids taught that the soul does not perish, but after death
passes from one body to another (in primis hoc volunt persuadere,
non interire animas, sed ab aliis post mortem transire ad alios).
Dennis
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15254
> Sanas Cormaic glosses "fuirim" (probably the same
> word?):
>
> 665. Fuirim .i. ellach aisti.
> (i.e. composition/putting together of a
> poem)
>
along the lines of "putting together" might this refer
to something less mystical, like "conception", and
thus he's talking about an un-ending line of descent,
via conception/procreation, from adam to the very last
man?
-dan
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15349
Dan wrote:
> along the lines of "putting together" might this refer
> to something less mystical, like "conception", and
> thus he's talking about an un-ending line of descent,
> via conception/procreation, from adam to the very last
> man?
I agree that the line of "successive birth" running from
Adam to doomsday seems to be more about procreation than
transmigration. But what is meant by calling this the
"birth of the true nature/essence" ("gein in fíraicnid")
and the carrying on of "aicned énbethae" (nature/essence
of a single life)?
Dennis
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=old-irish-l&T=0&P=15454
The following is from Prof. Maris Fiondella, the wife of one
of our members. She has been immersed in Augustine of late,
and happened to be looking over her husband's shoulder when
he was reading this thread:
Is it possible that the writer refers to the act of Creation,
understood in something like Augustinian terms? For Augustine,
Creation "by the Word" was an act of speech - by extension,
perhaps like the composing of a poem. He construed John 1.3
to mean that the world was analogically structured: real
relations of likeness pertained between God, his creatures,
and their history. So, for Augustine, Creation "speaks" of
its Creator; each human being is made to God's image. Human
history is analogically structured: OT persons and events are
understood as real historical entities, but also as "types"
foreshadowing their NT fulfillments. Perhaps the passage refers
to this idea of the analogical = the order of divine likeness
within corporeal and temporal difference.
Here, for reference, is another *very* provisional translation
of the passage under consideration:
Or, "tuirigin" means successive/cyclic birth, that is,
a successive birth that passes from every nature into
another, i.e. the birth of the true nature. Thus
Fachtnae mac Senchai said: "The cycle of birth which runs
through all nature from Adam and that goes forward through
every marvellous time until doomsday (is like) the unity
of a poem. In that way it brings the essence of a single
life to every particular creature, down to the last person."
D.
I quote extensively here for two reasons :
1. Tuirigin/tuirgen is, as should be obvious, a fascinating concept.
2. There has been discussion that began with a simple "debunking" of the Matthews' interpretation, arguing that they had pulled it out of thin air, and this simple antithesis did not stay, but ended up developing into much more interesting material. So that should be a warning to giving too much weight to anyone who comes around and loudly proclaims a debunking. Sometimes examination will yield extremely interesting nuances.