Sexuality and spirituality/religion

[mato]

ok it was suggested that I just ask instead of attempting to find the opinions of individuals. So is sexuality important to spirituality why? why not? Are Gods above sexuality? Why? Why not? How much does your sexuality influence your spirituality? (if not or if so) Why? Am I completely insane for thinking sexuality to be the base of all forms of social life? Why? Can we keep this one on topic? Why? Why not?

Will you please add to your response Age Sex Religion and Education? Why? Why not! (note: this is for later use in topic descussion compliance is appritiated.) Please include your views on the role of sex and sexuality in both spiritual and mondane life, as well as you thoughts on the impact on sex and sexuality in the development of modern culture. I am asking opinions, not arguments in this topic, please comply with my demand for none confrontation to any and all participants in this thread, thank you. The argument thread is a hijacked Poll Guys started by me if you wish to argue go there. Have a nice day.

[Myst]

Please note : See the "Guys" thread or "ha ha ha" thread for mato's explanation of how he's just "doing an experiment" and answer with the understanding that you will be, without permission, made part of "his experiment".

[mato]

no experiment this time dear. I hope you understand that much.

but those sources are good if you are interested in my views of such, again I should say that this is a none confrontational thread so if you would like to reply to those please do so in those threads, thank you and have a nice day.

[Myst]

I don't know why you presume I should, no one was expecting to be lab rats last time.

[Myst]

That said..

The only thing sexuality has to do with my spirituality is that fertility (*not* sex itself) is part of my spirituality (tho sex can sometimes be thought of as a symbol and celebration of that fertility).

I'm 22, female, and 2 months away from graduating college (software development), and engaged.

My spirituality is basically Wiccan except that I don't follow the Rede (tho I do consider it at times which I suppose is Wiccan) and I do *not* believe in the threefold law. My matron is Freya and before that I worked with Hekate.

and psst if you only want to post somewhere where people do *not* argue you probably shouldn't choose a discussion board. :D

[Danustouch]

Sex plays a very small role in my spiritual walk. I'm 26, Female, Married. And Eclectic Wiccan. In my rituals, I do observe the symbolic great Rite. But...being that I came from a background in which Gays and Lesbians, and Bisexuals and as a matter of fact...ASEXUAL beings, were a huge part of my social circle, I do not think of the great rite in terms of the union of a woman and a man. I tend to rephrase the traditional prayer said at that point as the union of Yin/Yang, or the "Feminine and Masculine energy"..or "God/Goddess Essence in All.". Etc. I don't view it as a sexual union between God and Goddess, woman and man, as much as I see it a spiritual union, between two polar energies. Receptive, Projective/magnetic, electric, etc.

The only time I can think, which sexuality enters into my spiritual observance, is at Beltaine. But that is more linked with the Fertility aspect of the festival. With Creation. To me, it is not so much a celebration of Human fertility,( though I'm aware that many do view it as such, and that it is probably an ideal time for human fertility workings) as I view it as a celebration of the Earths Fertility. And, again, I see it as a time of union between the two polar energies of the universe.

I use fertility magick in my life, but...that is because I want to conceive a child. I do NOT dabble with sex magick, although i admit that I have experimented with it, with a willing partner, as a method of improving our intimacy. Again, sexmagick is not all about the actual intercourse act, as it is about the intimacy. And intimacy is something which effects relationships very deeply.

So..sex plays a very small role in my life, my relationships, and my spirituality. In fact, I can go for months without sex, and it doesn't disrupt my life, or my thinking in any way, shape or form. I find other things in life just as fulfilling, and at times, more so, than the act of sexual intercourse. And do not mistake me, this is not due to any sexual dysfunction in my life. I enjoy sex fully, and with abandon, with no stigma, nor baggage attatched when I do have it. It's just that it is not a motivating factor/drive in my life.

And as I have already stated, I believe that MOST people would be fully capable of functioning well in their personal and spiritual lives without having sexuality be a governing factor. I admit that to many it IS a governing factor, but..to me, that is because it is far away from spiritual enlightenment. And usually, the people who are governed by sex as their every thought, and motivating factor in life, are often the people who are extremely far away from true spirituality. For instance, have you ever noticed that in a great number of cases, the more promiscuous a person is, the less regard they have for another human beings feelings? In my opinion, and in my spiritual walk, and system of belief, compassion, and caring for other individuals feelings, walking through life in a compassionate, and caring manner, being responsible for damages you inflict on others emotionally, is a very huge part of my belief system.

I think, that in ancient times, sex was far more a motivation in life, then it is today. The truth is, in ancient times, there was a reason for that. Population. They needed to ensure survival of the species. At the time, life was a very fragile thing. People lived a much shorter life. Diseases, natural disasters, elements, all could wipe out the population of the planet very quickly. Today, we have minimized the chances of such happening, and our population has grown exponentially. Today, it would take something as large as a meteor hitting earth, or a Nuclear explosion the likes of which we cannot even dream of, to completely wipe out the human race.

Likewise, human beings no longer have to rely upon sex, to continue the species. Now, babies are created in testtubes, from eggs, and sperm which are cryogenically frozen. And we are inches away from cloning.

So..in my estimation, sex is no longer a necessity, but a luxury. Which is fine, and good, and healthy. Nothing wrong with that. But luxurys are not necessities, and Sex is certainly NOT a necessity for me, nor for most individuals I know.

[amberlaine]

I'm with Myst. Sexuality isn't a part of my personal spiritual system, but fertility in all its various forms, very much is.

[astrokaiju]

i have heard the Great Rite referred to many times...but only cryptically.

...do i dare ask?




Originally posted by Danustouch
Sex plays a very small role in my spiritual walk. I'm 26, Female, Married. And Eclectic Wiccan. In my rituals, I do observe the symbolic great Rite. But...being that I came from a background in which Gays and Lesbians, and Bisexuals and as a matter of fact...ASEXUAL beings, were a huge part of my social circle, I do not think of the great rite in terms of the union of a woman and a man. I tend to rephrase the traditional prayer said at that point as the union of Yin/Yang, or the "Feminine and Masculine energy"..or "God/Goddess Essence in All.". Etc. I don't view it as a sexual union between God and Goddess, woman and man, as much as I see it a spiritual union, between two polar energies. Receptive, Projective/magnetic, electric, etc.

[mato]

Originally posted by astrokaiju
i have heard the Great Rite referred to many times...but only cryptically.

...do i dare ask?

I am interested in opinions on that as well...

[Myst]

The great rite is the union of male and female/God and Goddess to symbolize fertility, balance, and the joy of new life and love. It can occur literally (sex) or symbolically (with an athame and a cauldron most often).

[mato]

Originally posted by Myst
The great rite is the union of male and female/God and Goddess to symbolize fertility, balance, and the joy of new life and love. It can occur literally (sex) or symbolically (with an athame and a cauldron most often).

And your opinion of the great rite is...???

[astrokaiju]

Originally posted by Myst
The great rite is the union of male and female/God and Goddess to symbolize fertility, balance, and the joy of new life and love. It can occur literally (sex) or symbolically (with an athame and a cauldron most often).

*blushes*

i see.......


i knew that it was performed symbolically, and, from the vague answers i recieved before i kinda guessed it was done literally.

is this performed in the circle or in private? how common is this?

[Myst]

Depends on the circle astrokaiju. Most often it is symbolically done in circle if at all, and physically done in private if at all. While some covens are comfortable with doing that physically too often in the past it's been touted as a "requirement for initiation" etc. by nasty people and has gotten a bad rap.

Mato : I just posted my opinion. ie. it's a celebration of fertility and union of the God and Goddess.

[astrokaiju]

Originally posted by Myst
Most often it is symbolically done in circle if at all, and physically done in private if at all.

okay...what's so special about that? lots of people perform the "Great Rite" in private........

[Myst]

Because people who have sex aren't having the "Great Rite" by default.

It's a ceremony and a celebration; way more then just the act of intercourse.

[astrokaiju]

mato, i'll answer yer question even if i am getting railroaded into an experiment...

i think that every aspect of life involves spirituality. for me eating, sleeping, breathing, bathing and taking a walk are all very spiritual. the divine force is inside of us and all around us, within everything and operating everything. so to me, there is no difference between spiritual and mundane.

i have always thought of sexuality as particularly spiritual, and so have most cultures and religions until relatively recently. it's one of the most mystical, transcendant things, for many reasons that i...can't stop blushing long enough to explain. but there's the closeness, the forming of a union...the switch in consciousness that happens during sex is similar to the switch to mystical consciousness that takes place during meditation, prayer and ritual. in fact, mystical ecstacy and sexual ecstacy are so similar in many ways that it's hard to tell where one ends and one begins.

[astrokaiju]

Originally posted by mato
Will you please add to your response Age Sex Religion and Education?

female and...uh...pagan of no particular flavor.

i probably shouldn't tell you my age and education because i'm speaking from experience, and i just now i was realizing how young i am and feeling kind of criminal...

[Myst]

However unfortunately some people don't realize that sex isn't the only (nor necessarily the best) avenue to reach ecstasy.

[Danustouch]

Yes..and that is the problem. Too often, within the Pagan community (and I say this, because you just dont 'see' it within the Christian community, so I have to kinda limit it here), you see the attitude that sex is a reverent and healthy, and spiritual event, distorted by those who wish to use the religion as an excuse to be promiscuous, and to have sex with as many individuals, in as many situations, as humanly possible. I've even seen people use the Great Rite, as a pick up line. No kidding! A male online friend of mine, once emailed me saying he'd just gotten a message from a woman on ICQ, saying..."Do you want to do the Great Rite with me?". At first, he thought she was just some obnoxious person purposely mocking this ritual observance. So he started to lecture her about how Wicca is a real religion, and how bashing anothers religious traditions was biased, ignorant, etc, etc. Then she responded..."hey..i'm not bashing the religion. I'm Wiccan..and have been for five years!". He was shocked. Amazingly..I wasn't. I'd seen it happen all too often. Saddened, but definitely NOT shocked. I've been at large Beltaine festivals, where people showed up DRUNK, and skipped out on the ritual part, to clambor into Vans, to shag. At this same Beltaine Festival, I saw a Pinata broken after the festival, containing condoms, sex lotions, and other sexual aides. And no...MOST Of the people there did NOT approve of this. It was only a segment of the group assembled, unfortunately, some of them in leadership roles, who approved of this. People who were there with their small children, and people who were there to celebrate it as a Holy day...did NOT appreciate it being minimized to a "Sex free for all" environment. Sex is a part of life. And all acts of our lives can be sacred, and magickal. It is all in how you approach each act. But the truth is, most of us are NOT thinking of spirituality each and every time we unite with someone in the act of intercoarse. We would hope, that somehow subconciously, we as magickal beings recognize the sacredness of this act..but in the way in which we recognize that "All acts of love and pleasure" are celebrations of life.

When we place too much emphasis on sex....when we constantly seek sex as our only outlet or only way to celebrate life, we are ignoring some very beautiful moments in existance. Not to mention, it debases the act itsself, imo.

I can think of many other ways to acheive ecstasy. Dancing....Drumming....Trance Work....Chanting....Excercise......

Heck, sometimes, I can acheive a sense of ecstasy simply by living in a moment where the sun is shining warm upon my face, and the birds are singing loudly, and everything else, all the traffic, and everything else just seems to be silent for that one moment, and I realize how beautiful the world, the Earth, IS. That creates the same emotions...that same feeling of spiritual overflowing as reaching a sexual climax does. Sex is a wonderful way to acheive spiritual ecstasy. But certainly, not the only way.

[champagne]

Sexuality creates and destroys.
Sexuality has all aspects of the Nature itself.
Sexuality is above all, for it is the main drive in every beings life.

[mato]

debate is not a part of this thread, take it to one of the others please. I have clearly asked that there not be any here but only opinions to the previously asked questions. Thank you.

astrokaiju~

Relax I am done with the experimentation or else I wouldnt have mentioned it.

[Danustouch]

ummmmmmmm..I don't get where you saw debate, Mato. I certainly wasn't debating. I was answering your questions. And sharing my thoughts. That is not debate.

[Myst]

Again, if you don't want to see differing opinions, don't post to a forum.

[Myst]

Originally posted by champagne
Sexuality creates and destroys.
Sexuality has all aspects of the Nature itself.
Sexuality is above all, for it is the main drive in every beings life.

When was the last time you died during sex? When was the last time you hibernated, migrated, fed your children, brought down a deer for food, or taught your children to hunt during sex? Have you ever had sex at all?

[Eeluna]

You can be an extremely spiritual person without being sexual at all. That said, I find sexuality to be a very important part of my spirituality. We may like to think we have evolved beyond it, but at the root of our existence we are animals. We may have more intelligence and be able to control our basic urges better than the less intelligent animals, but in the end we are still animals. As animals living in a physical body, we relate to the world and the Universe through our senses.

I consider the pleasures of a sensual body one of the greatest gifts that I have been blessed with by my Deities. This does not always mean sex. It does mean enjoying the moment--the warmth of the Sun on your skin, breathing in fresh, cold air, the scent of a rose, the taste of chocolate melting on your tongue, a hug from a child, listening to water make music as it runs over the rocks in a creek, seeing the Moon and Stars glowing brilliantly in the Night Sky. These are all sensual things if you allow yourself to fully enjoy them.

Of course everyone will have their own list of special things, but I believe that when you enjoy these moments you honor God/Goddess. Sex is an important part of sensual enjoyment. As such I consider it to be one of Their greatest gifts. I don't think it matters what the genders involved are. As long as there is caring and true pleasure on both sides, I believe we honor our Deities.

Sex is far from the only way to honor Divinity. I am sure that there are those who never consider it as a Sacred Rite, but to me it is sacred. Do I always think of God/Godddess when I'm having sex? No, but I think we are closest to them when we are totally involved in the moment. When the world falls away, and it is as if there is no time and no space--only the two of you and your love--perhaps then we are reenacting the Goddess and God's primal Love.

I have been chosen by Aphrodite so it is understandable that Sexuality is an important part of my spirituality. I am a 42 year old female. I married my high-school sweetheart when I was nineteen and have stayed true to him. I don't think that promiscuity honors either yourself or your Deity. I have a couple of years of college--Dean's List. I am a Pagan who has Wiccan tendencies.

If you've heard of Abraham Maslow's theory you know that humans have a hierarchy of needs that is often visualized in pyramid form. At the base is the physiological needs--food/water, sleep, sex, etc. Without these needs being met humans can not climb any higher up the pyramid. Their whole existence is focused on getting these needs met. After the basic needs are met, the next level concerns safety and shelter. Then comes needs for belonging which include affection and love, the need for esteem and finally at the peak of the pyramid is self-actualization or to be the best person you can be. If you give any credence to this theory, and it is taught in psycology, you will see that sex is a major motivating factor in society.

In my opinion, Sex influences all of life. Perhaps we don't think of it in that way most of the time, but it is always there at the base of our existence, and frankly I think humanity would be the lesser without that need.

[mato]

Danustouch~

Ok so you dont see the debate in your post, can I get permission (as I am walking on thin ice right now :D) to start a second (third forth... grrr... counting makes my head hurt) the debate portion and further counter your statements with some sort of rational I find appropriate???

[Myst]

Originally posted by Eeluna
If you've heard of Abraham Maslow's theory you know that humans

Yeah that one is actually brought up in another of mato's sexuality threads along with some other related psychology including a discussion about how sex is the only non biological need that people "need", and how sex is the only "need" that doesn't "wake itself" (it's in the thread in just talk I think, I'm looking for it but its lost in the argument somewhere of "how all logic and reasoning are illusionary" anyway). I don't think I have to point out that mato claims that everything in the world (from spirituality and technology) is motivated by sex - including eating, drinking, and shelter, which if you'll look at Maslow's hierarchy are separate needs that are not motivated by sex (which is what mato proposes). So no, Maslow's hierarchy does *not* support the idea that everything is motivated by sex. It does support the idea that sex is a basic biological need but that's not what the debate is about - the debate is whether *everything* (including eating, drinking, technology, spirituality, etc.) is motivated by sex only.

And again, just because your spirituality has a heavy dose of sex in it doesn't mean everyone's does, or that "everyone's existence is motivated by sex". To me the idea is ridiculous - I don't sleep so I can get laid, study Paganism to get laid, go to school to get laid, or visit my friends to get laid, period! I certainly don't cast a circle to get laid, nor do I try to learn and grow daily to ascend to a higher level of consciousness to get laid! Does it not occur to you that sex is something that could exist on this plane only? That it is enjoyable for only certain animals? That it's widely believed that humans only think they need sex due to an ingrained desire to procreate from the time of prehistoric man when procreation *was* a need? Does it not occur to anyone that most activities of your day and goals in your life are *not* "to get laid".

To me the idea is preposterous and insulting. To ascend planes to a higher consciousness is to separate yourself from base human needs and to realize the truth about your soul, deity, and energy. If you want to continue a base, human existence on this *one* plane then feel free. If you want to believe the whole of your existence and spirituality is based on a need of your physical body and ignore consciousness and the ascendance of your soul, go nuts. The idea is an oxymoron in itself - your spirituality is a function of your spirit and soul, not some physical act of your shell.

And if you start another thread, mato, someone's going to disagree there too. Disagreement happens on a discussion board.

[Myst]

And anyways if you keep starting new threads you're just leaving people behind in what's already been brought up, discussed, and debated, and confusing people as well as making everyone wade through pages and pages and threads and threads of discussion.

[mato]

Myst~

however I am trying to keep this thread simply a limited expression of opinions so that the ineviatable debate that follows will not influence (atleast as strongly) the content of peoples posts. Would you please comply with the previously mentioned posting regulations on this thread and either a) move your confrontational post into one of the MANY other threads that will eventually be started (by me if no one else:D) or b) edit it appropriately as so that it is not confrontational, but rather an expression of your views. and I would love to get permission to post a second (ish) thread from this one based on the confrontational material presented in TWO (count them TWO! after I asked that they keep that stuff out of this one!) posts from the loudest people from my other threads (and there are going to be more!).

Eeluna~

Thank you so much I was looking for the author of that material.

[Myst]

No.

Just because I disagree with you and share my disagreeing opinions, which you ASKED for, does not mean I'm going to stop disagreeing so I'm "not confrontational". I think it's arrogant and ignorant that you imply most people who reply only say they feel the same way because they don't have brains of their own and are "being influenced" by logic and common sense, or that you want people to reply without knowledge of the relevant discussion or information.

It's a sad political tactic. Keep starting new threads and I'll keep not agreeing. If you call that confrontational, oh well.

[champagne]

Myst,
I see your point. But, when you think about spirituality (and in this case, sex also), try not to use "logic and reason" (which are main tools of the "brain") but rather try thinking with your heart.

"Every day reality" and your "spiritual reality" (should be) are two different points of view. "Every day reality" is driven by your brain (and therefore with logic, also), while "spiritual reality" (again: should be) is driven by your heart.

Brain and heart work in completely different ways.
When you understand that, you will understand my words, also.

[Myst]

And when you understand "I know the motivation of the entire world because I said so" is not a valid nor believable reasoning, and how sex isn't a function of one's heart or spirit (but driven by your mind thinking you need a physical act) and therefore is a physical act, not inherently a spiritual one, you'll see *my* point.

And believe me, you aren't going to convince anyone with "stop thinking with your brain, just believe what I say I know of everything".

Say "sex is the motivation for everything I do including my spirituality" and I can believe you. Tell me it's mine and I'm going to think you're full of it, especially when you have no basis, reasoning, or logic.

[mato]

Hardly political, however sense you seem to make everything a debate even when you suggested that I ASK for peoples opinions you make it difficult for them to give theirs without being influenced by YOUR confrontational attitude. If you would comply things would work out alot more smoothely. I will to start another thread for the debate portion of peoples opinions, however your need to have every one submit to both your will and Your opinions is wearing thin. Cease and desist your actions at once, or atleast channal them into the appropriate form. Thank you.

[Myst]

No.

No one gives a crap what I think; they have their own brains and their own opinions. People aren't disagreeing with you because I told them to, but because they disagree.

[Danustouch]

Mato..where the hell do you get off telling Myst SHE has a confrontational attitude? That's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. MANY of your posts, are exceedingly confrontational in nature. Sometimes, I get the feeling you are tossing bait out to some imaginary sharks, and just hoping someone will bite. This time, the sharks were real, and we bit. Only..not for the reasons you thought we would. And oh please, please..do NOT ever tell anyone to "Comply". You are not a king, not a God, not a "teacher" (at least not to us), and are in no position of authority to which we must "comply". And lastly...cease and desist, at once? ummmm..Or what?

[mato]

Originally posted by Myst
No.

No one gives a crap what I think; they have their own brains and their own opinions. People aren't disagreeing with you because I told them to, but because they disagree.

That's were you are wrong, you position in the mystic wicks hierarchy is that of alpha female, you cant be more influential if you tried. Your opinions and your thoughts influence everyone and every thing in the mystic wicks pantheon. Even the all powerful mol submits before your will (all be it grudgingly). It is really fascinating. You are the alpha female of mystic wicks, your opinions actions and hell even the smilies you use effect what other people say on a topic. People will disagree with me no mater what however when an alpha disagrees it is a whole nother story. The alpha sets the pace for the rest of the group and your approval of disapproval of any little thing influences, to such a great degree, the people 'under' you that you can either make or break a topic up for discussion. You are first to 'eat' and the one with the final say in most matters involving the beta's and below. Argue away, however if you are to look back over just a few of your posts (self examination is best so I wont help any) you will see what I am talking about. If you go over some of you 'behind the scenes' actions I am sure you will eventually be forced to concure that you are indeed the alpha female of mystic wicks, and that your dominance control and power is well that of legends ;).

[Eeluna]

Myst,

I don't think that sex is the be-all and end-all of life, just that it's a very important part. As I said a person can be extremely spiritual without being sexual. However we do not live without our bodies. We cannot relate to this Universe without our bodies. I happen to think that this physical body is a blessing of the Goddess. I also think that the pleasure it can give us is a blessing.

I don't think that the pursuit of sex permeates every second of every day of our lives. Of course Maslow's theory does not say that everything is motivated by sex, just that it is a need that must be met before humans can move on to higher needs. I haven't read the other thread so I was basing my answer on what Mato originally posted on this thread.

You know I find the idea of trying to "seperate yourself from base human needs" to be preposterous. It smacks of some of the major religion's attempts to mandate that the body and this world are illusions, that we must seperate ourselves from them to be spiritual.

I think that my body is an integral part of who I am. Together with my mind and spirit it forms a whole that is greater than the sum its parts. To ignore one part of the equation is to lose something invaluable.

[Lavender]

Ummm....mato? There is only one rule here....respect each other's path. Nowhere does it says that you can't debate a point or share your views.

[Myst]

Eeluna : to clarify, I don't disagree with you. In fact I agree it is an important part for many people, and for you obviously an integral part.

However I do disagree with the idea that it is the foundation of all things in the world, and that it is the motivation for *my* spirituality and existence, which is what mato has proposed.

[Myst]

Sweetie mol is married. His wife is an admin here. Kaylara and eaglewolf are also admins. I'm a lowly mod. You can't imagine how many times mol (and other admins and mods) have told me they think I'm full of it.

Believe me, everyone here has their own brain.

[Danustouch]

Ummmmmm..guess I'm just a bottom feeder in the pecking order, eh Myst?

Seriosly, Mato...unless you've somehow hacked into the database, and entered staff forum, how would you have a CLUE what goes on behind the scenes here at MW? What "position" Myst holds? You haven't a CLUE what goes on behind the scenes. If you did, you'd realize that Myst and I have had serious disagreements about issues in the past. And I for one, am never shy to tell her that I don't agree with her. If i don't agree..I don't agree, and vehemently so. Furthermore, MOL is LEAST likely of all the members here at MW to be intimidated by anyone. If he doesn't like something Myst says or Does, he tells her so. And he DOES have the final say in what goes on here. He doesn't just cave to her every wish and desire. You certainly do come to some Wild assumptions. Most of which, have no basis in fact.

The mere fact that so far, you've seen a few people disagree with mysts position should tell you that much.

[mato]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Mato..where the hell do you get off telling Myst SHE has a confrontational attitude? That's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. MANY of your posts, are exceedingly confrontational in nature. Sometimes, I get the feeling you are tossing bait out to some imaginary sharks, and just hoping someone will bite. This time, the sharks were real, and we bit. Only..not for the reasons you thought we would. And oh please, please..do NOT ever tell anyone to "Comply". You are not a king, not a God, not a "teacher" (at least not to us), and are in no position of authority to which we must "comply". And lastly...cease and desist, at once? ummmm..Or what?

Be told the horrible truth??? <joke>Ummm Suffer the wrath of your god (me for those of you who didnt get the memo...) And no I am not a God I am The GOD!</joke> In all actuallity I am a low ranking omega male just content to observe... My actions however are seen to be out of line for this social situation. as such I am subject to the attempted repramands of the higher ranking members. this is all very interesting.

Only in response are they so. I find that sometimes that is the only way to get the point accross.

Read the earlier post and observe how this beta female reacts to a preceived attack on the alpha female's power, this is her move and I have been wondering if this will play out into a full on power struggle with the alpha female of if this is an attempt to gain favor of both the lower ranking population and the alpha or if it is a small power play designed to degrade the alpha females base for a future move for the position of alpha female...

[Myst]

Look! If you don't have any response in the discussion you can make crap up and pretend you're doing an experiment!

[Lavender]

Wow! Thanks, Mato! I had no idea I was being brainwashed by Myst! :rolleyes:

Let me assure you that your statement is so far off base that it's not even funny. I'm pretty sure my opinions are my own.

Perhaps you should examine your own reasons for thinking this way. What comes across is someone who is insecure in his own self, attacking someone who is more assured of themselves.

[Kaylara]

Noooo.... Here at MW the only alpha members are the Administrators. And I really don't think that we have as much influence over the way other's express themselves as some would like to think we do.

Kaylara

[mato]

Originally posted by Myst
Sweetie mol is married. His wife is an admin here. Kaylara and eaglewolf are also admins. I'm a lowly mod. You can't imagine how many times mol (and other admins and mods) have told me they think I'm full of it.

Believe me, everyone here has their own brain.

The alpha female isnt chosen by the alpha male! Yeesh that is so 50's mentality. Admin mods or members doesnt matter as that is not what effects the order. What do you think the president (that fool) is the alpha of the entire country?! Hell no! It is not decided by positions of power or influence (only influenced hahaha) the only real effect on the order is personality (here the dominant personality) and the lower ranking members (as if the omega's were to decide that you no longer were the appropriate choice for alpha female you would be quickly replaced...) It has nothing to do with your position with the other alpha or beta's rather just your overall perception by the rest of the community.

Danstouch
Didnt hack sht. Dont need to hack. Just observing what is said and done on the public forms for a few days is enough to grasp the basic social order. Carefull observation of further posts the group mentality can easily fill in any gaps.

[mato]

Originally posted by Myst
Look! If you don't have any response in the discussion you can make crap up and pretend you're doing an experiment!

no crap no experiment (this time) just observing responses and people's influence on eachother, and the social order here. Fun stuff.

[Myst]

What you may have selectively observed says nothing of the 2000+ members here, or of the 140,000+ posts that have been made, let alone private discussions you have not been privy to both here and in other environments in the past year of MW. It is truly sad that you have to resort to believing everyone who disagrees does so because of some non existent "pack mentality" you've created in your mind.

I think Wildchild has made an excellent suggestion that you should be mindful of.

[Kaylara]

And I think that this thread is going to be closed down if I don't at least see an attempt to get back to being civil towards each other. Stop taking jabs at each other. NOW.

*End Administrator Mode*

Kaylara

[Myst]

Now. Does anyone have input on whether sex is the sole motivation for the existence of every individual and the world as a whole?

[Kaylara]

Well... Look at all other forms of life... They live to reproduce. The way humans reproduce is by having sex... But we are also one of the only creatures on Earth that have sex for pleasure when there is no chance of offspring. I don't know if I can say that it's my sole motivation, but it is a very power motivation, and holds a very sacred part of my heart. Especially in today's world, where it's hard to be able to bond with people due to societies constraints on interaction. People are afraid of each other and afraid to get close to each other. They are afraid to be intimate, and so they make sex a meaningless thing, a weapon, an outlet for so many other feelings. I think that we really need to understand the desire for intimacy in regards to how it shapes a person's sexuality, and emotional self. Because I really think that it's more the intimacy that most of us are looking for when we have sex...

Just my two cents.

Kaylara

[amberlaine]

That's were you are wrong, you position in the mystic wicks hierarchy is that of alpha female, you cant be more influential if you tried.

Shit, I thought that was me. Damn, I"m going to have to get onto Mol about this.

[Myst]

sorry to be off topic for a sec - but amber your PM box is full.

Kaylara you've made some interesting points. I think that intimacy, love, and acceptance are very motivational and an important goal in many people's lives. And yes unfortunately I think sex becomes the outlet for a deep desire for these things as well as other things as you've mentioned.

[mato]

Every attempt at every action is geared towards the raising of ones social stature to increase ones possible mates. The artist the musician and the painter are all either consciously or subconsciously attempting to impress any potential mate, either through their form or through their expression of that form. A bad musician will achieve his goal if he is a good preformer. A bad panter will achieve his (in this case my pronouns are interchangable) goal if he has a personality to make up for it. Throughtheir development of each individual's style they tend to gain their abilities and mating posibilities increase.

Further Attempts at creating such basic needs as shelter are met with the same goal. If the individual is a gifted architect their mating possibilities increase, if they are good at hiding bad foundation the same is true. Hunting and providing food are attempts to impress possible mates. It is customary that these skills be shown to a possible mate through the tradition of 'dinner and a movie'. These are ways of indicating that the actively courting individual and the courted are engaging in programed responses.

Need to expand ones mating possibilities doesnt end at marriege or commetment. the brain does not see one mate as sufficient and only through the attainment of more is that individual satisfied. Proof of this is in the genes (jeans hahaha) in that human male testicles are larger than those of the less sexual great apes who do not have to contend with other mature males in a single group, but only defend his herom from eager up and comers. After which the dominant male chases them out of the threat out of the group. Human remains have shown that individuals were not limited to a single mate 'back in the day', but that their was a more 'communal' function in sex. Tribal societies still show signs of this as meetings, if there are no taboos against it, can and do decend into 'orgies'. These 'orgies' serve to unite the group as a tribe as well as form bonds and provide further information for the selection of a mate.
Social taboos and genetics mix to form a tangled web of can and cant in modern life. While it is generally consdered ok to engage is sexual activity in modern culture it is not ok to do so outside of a monogamous relationship and there are some forms that are still taboo despite the taboo's irrelevance today. (findings of this are generally to suggestive to post... after some major editing... maybe)

Emotions are evolutions little joke... Emotional attachment makes it less likely for an individual to just walk away. It also serves to ensure the formation and function of social groups. The story of the first woman and first child trying to decide if man should live forever die forever or live occasionally and die occasionally, she says "Man must die so that they will feel sorry for eachother" and keep the social bonds that ensure survival and mating. Love evolved to bond a group of people together for better mating possibilities and subsiquently survival of the species. Love is linked directly to the attractiveness of the individual in question. For example babies are considered cute becuase of the long round face, the cuter the baby the less likely they are to be neglected by the parents as the bond is made.
Social interaction between two people intent on making a bond includes physical contact so that the contaction between that given individual and pleasure is firmly made. The primates social grooming can be seen in human families and extended families (although there are less bugs involved today :)) as with the event of a family picture being taken, the bond of love is to be shown in the photo so grooming is engaged in before hand (yes it also makes people look nice but that is not it's primary function in for the brain's subconscouss.). A man who has less brain matter dedicated to emotional attachments is more likely to weasel out of such and seek better mating grounds. This has evolved due to the fact that men are for the most part expendable, so long as there is a reasonable selection of unrelated fertile females and atleast one man the future of the species is insured so the male position in the group has to be enphasised to ensure their acceptance (thus the rise of patriachal religion... expansion on this later) into the group. the fight of flight effect of suggesting the idea of comminment to a man also serves to deversify genetic material and reduce inbreeding. (more later)

Other points to explore at a later date are:
Gender and sexual roles... why are men more openly sexual than women...(take from this whatever you want however a study conducted on mice shows that mice on an overdose of estrogen are less likely to be selected as mates by a male http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/year1/sexbehav.htm )
The brain's imparatives (need some links before any of it will be taken seriously, and then dismissed...)...
Social prohabitions on natural behavior (particularly poligomy)
The study of sex http://www.sexuality.org/l/sex/sexohist.html and it's influence on modern advancements, it being the first and still the base for modern medicine as we know it.
Sex and religion... (need more links before it will be even considered, Jesus inspiring gay men to sainthood sense 3000bc!? [my thoughts includes the jewish prophacy of a savior] Horned god and the green man, more than just friends and what would the shining sun diety think, moon unites with venus venus is the sun's b and <joke>the earth is just a slut</joke>??? Gaia and Rhea, what's with them? Islam and sexuality, the book states "men and women are equals, and should be treated as such" why is this selected as hogwash? Adam Eve And Lilith?! My gods that is a funky couple, why the math alone! Jewish Goddess and the divine rite?! Divine rite or human fun... Nature divine or divine nature? they are all explored in the paper I am working on and no it's not done!)
sex and the spirit (different topic than sex and religion, does the soul have a gender identity? Are we male and female because our souls are so?)

Post MTV generation perfectionist, if it's not perfect in 2 minutes 30 seconds it's not worth perfecting. lol Internet perfectionist "I waited five seconds for THIS?! to load!!! I am wrting an angry virus!" :smoke:

later (after a music video or twelve)

[champagne]

Myst,
sorry for obvious misunderstanding: but when I speak (write) I DO from MY point of view, not others. So, my words of sexuality are MY opinion and I don't expect it to be your, too.

That's why we have message boards: to express OUR views. I was just trying to explain you why you didn't understand my opinion on the subject matter. You and I look at it from different corners.
Nothing more or nothing else.

I respect everyone's opinion.

btw, are you really as important at this message board as mato implies?

[amberlaine]

Myst, you defintely need to change your title to "alpha female", just in case anyone is unsure of your status ;)

[Myst]

mato :


Originally posted by mato
Every attempt at every action is geared towards the raising of ones social stature to increase ones possible mates...

Again, opinion only.


Originally posted by mato
Hunting and providing food are attempts to impress possible mates.

Except for large amounts of people who don't have to impress mates, don't want another mate, don't want a mate at all a given time, or have personal goals and are happy with themselves. I happen to be one of them.


Originally posted by mato
Proof of this is in the genes (jeans hahaha) in that human male testicles are larger than those of the less sexual great apes who do not have to contend with other mature males in a single group, but only defend his herom from eager up and comers.

"The brain needing more then one mate" is *again* your opinion rather then scientific fact. Your logic with ape testicles is flawed - whether an animal with large or small testicles has to contend with other males is not the question. In fact if anything I could say the fact that apes with harems having smaller testicles proves that animals with larger testicles shouldn't have harems.


Originally posted by mato
Social interaction between two people intent on making a bond includes physical contact so that the contaction between that given individual and pleasure is firmly made. The primates social grooming can be seen in human families and extended families (although there are less bugs involved today :)).

Yes and as you've said many actions including cuddling, talking, going for walks, visiting friends, going for drives, doing sports together, etc. are also social interaction that can include physical contact and pleasure. Therefore sex isn't the only means or even the best means to initiate such interactions or bondings.

On prehistoric men, for one thing, prehistoric man no longer exists and times, circumstances, and needs have changed. For another, if anything prehistoric man teaches us that way back then sex was ingrained into our minds for the purpose of procreation which *is* the actual biological need at hand here. He also teaches us that in his time, even if procreation was a biological need, more important were food, water, and shelter (read Jean Auel's books or the non fiction she sourced for information for some idea of how prehistoric woman would prevent birth of new tribe members in dire times. You can also find lots of literature of ancient and current abortificaents that were/are used).

Even so, in light of all this hubbub, as Wildchild has pointed out to me - you claim that sex is the sole motivation for existence, not fertility. Therefore your information on hormones, testicular size, etc. and their relation to the need to procreate doesn't support your idea that sex itself is the sole motivation of existence. They might support the importance of procreation and fertility, but as we all know those aren't the sole functions of sex, and procreation and fertility can be altered and achieved in alternative ways.

You have an interesting opinion but I still think it's flawed.

champagne : lol nope. Out of the over 2000 members here at MW I'm pretty sure everyone has their own opinions. My comment as to 'you' saying that 'your' spirituality may be based on sex but don't tell me mine is was actually more or less directed at mato. You didn't imply anything about my spirituality and I'm aware of that so I apologize if you think I was directing that response to you.

amberlaine : lmao

[Yvonne Belisle]

In my opinion sex is not that important in bonding with others. Even a mate. There is far more than sex involved in relationships of any kind including with the powers that be. Since I think of the powers as being male and female in one entity there is no thought of sex involved with how I perseive it. I do beleive that sexuality is an important part of life but not the most important part of life. I think interaction is far more vital sex is secondary if even that. It also better not be the first kind of contact any male has with me or he will lose that part of him that he needs for that.

[Danustouch]

Could not agree more, yvonne:) I have had numerous relationships where sex was so occasional, that it was ...well..almost non existant. Because of long distance, because of the person being injured, Because one of us was not ready..yadda, yadda, yadda. And yet, the relationship was in essence, good. And before anyone leaps to any conclusion..sex, or the lack there of, was in NO way responsible for the breakups in these relationships. It was more differences in views on important subjects, and issues such as that. I have abstained from having sex for months at a time, even while in relationships, for one reason or another...

To me, a bond with a partner can be made just as deeply, from having meaningful discussions about feelings, life, perspectives, etc. From Cuddling, and feeling eachothers heart beat. From waking in eachothers arms, No matter WHAT happened the night that proceeded. From being there for eachother through deaths of loved ones, illnesses, personal defeats, etc. Bonding, comes from sharing. Comes from two minds, and two hearts, connecting. This does not need sex to occur. For instance, look at the people who are paralyzed from the waist down. Many of them get married AFTER the tragedy which causes their paralyses. Why? Because they have found someone with whom a bond exists that supercedes the need for sex. I knew a bhuddist couple once. The Male in the relationship chose to take a vow of sexual abstinence for the first five years of their marriage. They are now in their tenth year of marriage. And are one of the most happy couples I know. I have also talked with a woman, who is unable to have sex, because of a physical problem. And yet, she and her husband have stayed together, and her husband is faithful to her. This problem existed from even before she was married to him...so...

It is obvios to me, based on my many observances of Love, Bonding, and Union, and my own experiences with such, That sex is only one part of the whole communion of two souls. A marriage, relationship, or union of any sort, can survive without it. It is a pleasurable experience, yes. But not a necessary one.

[Lavender]

Good point, Danus. That reminded me of my aunt. She was in her menopausal years when she met her husband. They keep separate bedrooms & are not intimate in a sexual way. Yet, they have a great relationship and is very loving towards each other. There was no need to procreate for the both of them. Both were in their late 50's and have children of their own. Their relationship is by no means sexual.

[flar7]

The Greeks gave their gods human characteristics and flaws.
So that means they had sexuality. The Greeks used the examples
of their gods to teach, moderation. Everything in moderation.
Sex was not the driving force of the Greeks, they were in to
philosophy, art, math, war, sports, and all things that make man,
man...including sex. Whenever something became the driving
force in their society, it led to ruin. Pride, Sex, War, etc. They
had examples of all this. You pick most of this up in College,
especially your first couple of philosophy or sociology classes.

Testicles? Actually, Neanderthal had larger testicles than us, and
Cro magnon also. Testicles have been shrinking since prehistoric
times because the sex drive is no longer as important for
maintaining the species. lol. As brains got more developed, testes
went the other way.!:eek: heheh That you get in biology101.

I am an older College Student (senior) age 36. Beliefs: nunya

[mol]

Originally posted by mato


That's were you are wrong, you position in the mystic wicks hierarchy is that of alpha female, you cant be more influential if you tried. Your opinions and your thoughts influence everyone and every thing in the mystic wicks pantheon. Even the all powerful mol submits before your will (all be it grudgingly).

Was this a joke? Or are you genuinely trying to piss me off? If the latter is the case, then it worked. No one rules me on this board or anywhere else for that matter. Your attempts at showing yourself as having some 'high' intellect have failed miserably as well. The more I read this thread, the further down the scale you go.

So, let me just clear something up.

The Community rules the Community. But, only I rule this site.

[amberlaine]

::grumbles:: My plans of master domination appear to have failed again! Pinky, we'll have to take over the world another day.

[mol]

Originally posted by amberlaine
::grumbles:: My plans of master domination appear to have failed again! Pinky, we'll have to take over the world another day.

Muawahahahaha.

[Kaylara]

Damn.

[mato]

Originally posted by mol


Was this a joke? Or are you genuinely trying to piss me off? If the latter is the case, then it worked. No one rules me on this board or anywhere else for that matter. Your attempts at showing yourself as having some 'high' intellect have failed miserably as well. The more I read this thread, the further down the scale you go.

So, let me just clear something up.

The Community rules the Community. But, only I rule this site.

eh not my intent to attempt to impress.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Mato, I am not going to be tedious and repeat what the others said, for we have been warned against such behavior all ready. But, some of the things you have said in here are so ridicolous that when I read them I couldn't help laughing my @$$(GAG) off. No one here is under Myst's control, she is not the deciding factor, and holds no influence on me or on anyone on this board. Accept maybe you... She seems have YOUR anger and methods wrapped around her pinky... How scary:D:D:D:D

And my views on the Topic: Sex is a wonderful union shared between two people that can be completely pleasurable. But I also think that it is one of the most spiritual things the human race could ever achieve. The union between two human beings, no matter the sex, is a wonderful experience. I believe it is one of the closer things to the "Higher Conciousness" you can` have. The feminine quality of the soul and the masculine. Or the masculine and the masculine. Whatever, it holds a high standing because it brings that two souls together. Or at least I believe so... lol

[mato]

:)

[Myst]

Originally posted by flar7
The Greeks gave their gods human characteristics and flaws.


You've touched on something I forgot. To me, Gods are created or changed over time - rather then "man being built in the image of God" I really believe that God is made in the image of man. There's some mention of this in one of my books along the lines of "do you think the rabbit looks to the sky and sees his God formed as a man?".

A lot of people might disagree with that but that's how I feel.

[Danustouch]

Hmmmmm..Myst..I think that makes sense..especially if you agree with Jungs theory of Archetypes. Since Archetypes can change with time, as well...I would guess :)

[astrokaiju]

Originally posted by Myst


You've touched on something I forgot. To me, Gods are created or changed over time - rather then "man being built in the image of God" I really believe that God is made in the image of man. There's some mention of this in one of my books along the lines of "do you think the rabbit looks to the sky and sees his God formed as a man?".

A lot of people might disagree with that but that's how I feel.

well then...if people are just making up these ideas about the gods, what do you believe they're really like?

[Myst]

Read it again. It isn't saying people are making up what they think of God. It says that Gods are what we make them. For instance if lots of people believe Aphrodite is a Goddess of lust, then she becomes a Goddess associated and concerned with lust. She becomes an archetypal representation of what we see her as. It also reminds me of archetypes and egregores.

It's also saying that people may gaze upon the God and see Him/Her by different faces. As Yahweh, as Hekate, as Odin, Brighid, etc.

[astrokaiju]

Originally posted by Myst
Read it again. It isn't saying people are making up what they think of God. It says that Gods are what we make them. For instance if lots of people believe Aphrodite is a Goddess of lust, then she becomes a Goddess associated and concerned with lust. She becomes an archetypal representation of what we see her as. It also reminds me of archetypes and egregores.

It's also saying that people may gaze upon the God and see Him/Her by different faces. As Yahweh, as Hekate, as Odin, Brighid, etc.



eep...that question didn't come out the way i meant it to. and...actually, i knew what you were talking about and i agree. i shouldn't come here when i'm half-asleep....

carry on.......

[Myst]

err ok.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Let me know if you need anything else. :)

[mol]

Originally posted by mato


eh not my intent to attempt to impress.

Thats a relief.

[mato]

Originally posted by mol
Thats a relief.

lol

[Danustouch]

Read it again. It isn't saying people are making up what they think of God. It says that Gods are what we make them. For instance if lots of people believe Aphrodite is a Goddess of lust, then she becomes a Goddess associated and concerned with lust. She becomes an archetypal representation of what we see her as. It also reminds me of archetypes and egregores.

*Nods* Concsiousness creates reality :)

[mato]

Originally posted by Danustouch
*Nods* Concsiousness creates reality :)

So reality is illusion?

[Myst]

No. Reality is reality. There's a thread or two on that somewhere else.

My consciousness is not illusion.

[Danustouch]

No..reality is NOT an illusion. LITERALLY..your consciousness CREATES (makes tangible, true, etc, ) Reality :)

[champagne]

The pencil is straight, right?

If you put it in the half full glass of water and if you look from the side, it will seem broken, right?

So, what is the reality?

[Danustouch]

There is a difference, imo, between "Perception" and "Consciousness".

[mato]

Ok sorry off topic

Reality is based on consciousness, which is based on perception, and conscious reactions to said perception. Consciousness is then to be only perceived to be reality and then perceives reality. Creation creates itself and one is formed only because some one else perceived one’s consciousness otherwise one would be as non-existent as the rest of nothing. The perceived then perceives creating what it perceives only because of its perceived consciousness. Finally said perception betrays the observer only to destroy them when doubt of their own perception/existence is raised. However creation continues to exist because a perceived consciousness continues to create/perceive reality? Reality is thus an illusion because the first perception could not have been as there was nothing to perceive.

Example, I perceive a falling spider in my semi conscious state, and then as I am only semi conscious I doubt that perception, said perception then becomes distorted and becomes a new perception to my mind, one of a flower. As full consciousness is achieved the perceived distortion of said perception creates a logical conclusion that said perception was not. The perception on the brink of reality then ceases to be because it was not perceived to be conscious and hence self-sustaining. Thus consciousness and reality are illusions because they are dependant on each other and their continued acceptance of perception as 'reality' and nothing ‘concrete’ but only the minds ‘shadows’. Once there is doubt there is no reality and consciousness and perception become illusion.

[Myst]

Uhhuh. There's a few threads here at MW about reality vs perception. You might want to search for them rather then argue off topic in this thread. :D

[mato]

Originally posted by Myst
Uhhuh. There's a few threads here at MW about reality vs perception. You might want to search for them rather then argue off topic in this thread. :D

Oooh... but that's no fun!

[Myst]

I think I recall Mastermoon and Illuminatus and others really getting into that discussion. *shrugs* :)

[mato]

trying to entice me? :D

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Danustouch
No..reality is NOT an illusion. LITERALLY..your consciousness CREATES (makes tangible, true, etc, ) Reality :)

That is a little too Matrix for my tastes.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Illuminatus


That is a little too Matrix for my tastes.

You are the one...

[flar7]

that is a little too tasteful for my matrix!