Evidence for pre-Gardner witches?

[David19]

This is something that's brought up a lot in threads (both here and elsewhere), some people say there weren't any witches, pre-Gardner, other say there were and that they were a 'pagan' survival, and others say there were witches, but they were most likely Christian witches, but is there any evidence for any witches, pre-Gardner, and what kinds of witches were there.

I've heard about Ozark witches (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/o/ozark_witchcraft_folklore.html) and Appalachian witchcraft (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usnc&c=trads&id=3207), but is there evidence for any others.

This isn't a rant or anything about one way or the other, it's just something i'm interested in and would like to see the evidence.

Thanks for any help :).

[Cliona]

Check out this website:

http://wicca.timerift.net/history_real.shtml

And read the other links over to the right under "Myth and History". ;)

[Faol-chù]

This is something that's brought up a lot in threads (both here and elsewhere), some people say there weren't any witches, pre-Gardner, other say there were and that they were a 'pagan' survival, and others say there were witches, but they were most likely Christian witches, but is there any evidence for any witches, pre-Gardner, and what kinds of witches were there.

I think that first, you'd have to find out which of those people referred to *themselves* as 'witches'. I think that a lot of people were called witches by others who would not have referred to themselves as such, simply because of the negativity attached to the name.
I believe that the 'positive' view of "witches" only came about after the advent of Gardener.




I've heard about Ozark witches (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/o/ozark_witchcraft_folklore.html) and Appalachian witchcraft (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usnc&c=trads&id=3207), but is there evidence for any others.


Let me tell you that I *live* in the Appalachians, in the south, and I have to tell you that, while there certainly *are* and have been magickal traditions here, and they are sometimes called "witchcraft", it is not a term that the practitioners, themselves would use to describe what it is that they do (at least not traditionally--though some of the younger people have embraced the term for themselves). Again this has historically been because of the negativity attached to the term. The people here, for centuries, have been evangelical Christians. Someone who called themselves a witch would NOT have been thought well of, and would have been, at the very least, avoided...if not outright lynched.

The sources the author gives at the end of the article you posted are quite telling. Edain McCoy, Ray Buckland I know from my research into Celtic cultures that neither of these authors are above stretching or outright manufacturing things to make their point. (To prove my point, I give you the Scottish Samhain pumpkins by Edain McCoy!)

Le meas,

[ArcofDaisies]

I've seen evidence which suggests that witches did exist before....although whether they called themselves witches I am not sure but they did practise what would be classed today as witchcraft

The evidence I've seen is in private hands, probably won't be made public (least not in the near future)

However I don't know why its such a big issue -if witches today are happy with their practises, I don't see why it matters if there is a long line of proven history. Times have moved on and even if we could trace witchcraft back we would only take certain aspects from the past and ignore the bits we don't like

[Faol-chù]

I've seen evidence which suggests that witches did exist before....although whether they called themselves witches I am not sure but they did practise what would be classed today as witchcraft

The evidence I've seen is in private hands, probably won't be made public (least not in the near future)

However I don't know why its such a big issue -if witches today are happy with their practises, I don't see why it matters if there is a long line of proven history. Times have moved on and even if we could trace witchcraft back we would only take certain aspects from the past and ignore the bits we don't like


The only think I can see that matters is that, if you are a supestitious type, referring to practitioners of the past....

I wouldn't want to upset my great-great grandmother by calling what she did "witchcraft". She's likely to let me know of her displeasure...:)

Le meas,

[Ben Gruagach]

Owen Davies has a few books published that explore the documented history of witches in England from before Gardner's time. The witches he discusses though sound more like people who happened to practice magick rather than people who felt witchcraft was their religion. (Most of these people were Christians or atheists or agnostics rather than Pagans.)

There is also an interesting book called "The Black Books of Elverum" which is a historical witches' grimoire from Norway, translated and edited in English by Mary S. Rustad. It dates back well before Gardner's time. It's really a handbook of magick from a Christian point of view though so it doesn't really support the claim that witchcraft was (always) a surviving Pagan religion.

There are some other texts that explore witchcraft before Gardner's time here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/index.htm) and here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/index.htm) at the always-helpful Sacred-texts.com website.

Oh, and in Australia the infamous Rosaleen Norton was a very public witch who predates Gardner. She was very much a self-taught practitioner though and not really an initiate of an existing system from what I've read.

[covenofkeys]

what the word witchcraft meant to the people in say 1400's would not have been exactly the same in say 1900's.
withcraft is made up of countless aspects in todays world. were there pre gardnerian witches? yes there were witches of types but whether they practised in exactly the same manner that it is done today, is unlikely.

define the word witch and you have different meanings throughout the timeline of history. one persons witch is another persons healer,performer of magic,spellworker, diviner, shaman,herbalist...the list is endless.

[Kaylara]

I know at least one member on this site who is a member of a pre-wiccan witch family. (I'll try to get him to visit because this kind of thing is right up his alley.)

[covenofkeys]

yes, that would be a great idea.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Witches, yeah. You got your classical pagan witches, wizards, sorcerors, and general bad magic-workers who got under everyone's skin and were subsequently nastily killed. Along come the Christians, who are Oh So Civilized, and see these *silly* pagan governments killing perfectly innocent people over superstition! Silly pagans, let's make witch-mobbing punishable by death!
Several hundred years later, susperstition remains rampant. Vage memories of those old witches crop up again and are once again misapplied to the malevolent magic-worker - usually with the helpful suggestions of the local wise woman or cunning-man, for a generous fee - which once again results in people being nastily killed.
You've got your Medea, your Circe, your workers of seidr, galdr, your local wise-woman or cunning-man, the whole kit and caboode. They just weren't Wiccans or, after Christianization, pagans.
OK, well, the witches killed in the 'burning times', to use a horrendously outmoded term, may have had a few actual diabolists or Satanists among their numbers. It wouldn't surprise me.

[Ben Gruagach]

OK, well, the witches killed in the 'burning times', to use a horrendously outmoded term, may have had a few actual diabolists or Satanists among their numbers. It wouldn't surprise me.

"The Black Books of Elverum" includes some pretty stereotypical Satanic-leaning magickal works including ways to summon the Devil and how to get demons to do things for you. It also includes spells done in the Devil's name intended to cause harm to a chosen victim. And with the various ways in assorted ceremonial magick grimoires that also give ways to summon demons and get them to do your bidding it would be very surprising if some self-identified witches didn't try to do that back in pre-Gardner days.

[David19]

I know at least one member on this site who is a member of a pre-wiccan witch family. (I'll try to get him to visit because this kind of thing is right up his alley.)

That would actually be very cool if you could get him to visit this post :).

[covenofkeys]

it was still a despicable punishment-innocent or not.
people can think what they like about the use of the word 'witch' and 'witchcraft'- you will find it really isnt very relevant.

[eaglewolf]

I know at least one member on this site who is a member of a pre-wiccan witch family. (I'll try to get him to visit because this kind of thing is right up his alley.)

Okay... I think the member Kaylara was talking about here is me. She did request I take a look at this thread, and that is a rare thing for her to ask...

I do come from a 'pre-Wiccan' traditional family. Our family, like many have stated here, did not view ourselves as witches. The term did not really catch on until recently. In fact, we still do not consider ourselves 'witches' per se, but anyone on the outside looking in might label us as such.

[stella01904]

I thought she was talking about Raven Grimassi.
OF COURSE there were Witches prior to Garder. What do you think the followers of Hecate, Diana, etc. were?

[David19]

I thought she was talking about Raven Grimassi.
OF COURSE there were Witches prior to Garder. What do you think the followers of Hecate, Diana, etc. were?

But, how do we know Medea and her daughter (Circe(sp?) wasn't it) actually existed as historical people?, and i don't know much about Strega witchcraft, but from what i've read, it could be that Madalena(sp? my spelling sucks tonight ;)), was a conartist and just said any BS to get Leland to pay her, is there any other evidence for pre-Gardner witches, especially quotes, and not just what people in the 'burning times' said (for one reason is that no witches were burned there, mainly Jews and other Christians, and probably a few gay people too).

This is something i'm interested in, and i would look at books, but as i'm a student, i don't have much money for books on witchcraft, so i'm hoping people might help me understand).

What evidence is there for Strega witches, or any other witch?, this isn't an attack on anyones belief, whatever witch you may be, but i'd like to know if there is evidence for actual witches (preferably ones who self-identified as witches, as anyone can say someone is a witch, e.g. i could say Bush is a witch, but that doesn't make him one, etc).

Thanks again :).

[David19]

Okay... I think the member Kaylara was talking about here is me. She did request I take a look at this thread, and that is a rare thing for her to ask...

I do come from a 'pre-Wiccan' traditional family. Our family, like many have stated here, did not view ourselves as witches. The term did not really catch on until recently. In fact, we still do not consider ourselves 'witches' per se, but anyone on the outside looking in might label us as such.

Thanks for replying, that's really interesting, if you don't mind me asking, but do you come from a family, who may have been Christian (or whatever religion), but practiced magic, or one that worshipped certain deities (again, if you don't mind me asking and i hope i'm not being too nosy) :).

[Carla O'Harris]

But, how do we know Medea and her daughter (Circe(sp?) wasn't it) actually existed as historical people?, and i don't know much about Strega witchcraft, but from what i've read, it could be that Madalena(sp? my spelling sucks tonight ;)), was a conartist and just said any BS to get Leland to pay her, is there any other evidence for pre-Gardner witches, especially quotes, and not just what people in the 'burning times' said (for one reason is that no witches were burned there, mainly Jews and other Christians, and probably a few gay people too).

This is something i'm interested in, and i would look at books, but as i'm a student, i don't have much money for books on witchcraft, so i'm hoping people might help me understand).

What evidence is there for Strega witches, or any other witch?, this isn't an attack on anyones belief, whatever witch you may be, but i'd like to know if there is evidence for actual witches (preferably ones who self-identified as witches, as anyone can say someone is a witch, e.g. i could say Bush is a witch, but that doesn't make him one, etc).

Thanks again :).



Ok, if you're claiming that Maddalena created the Aradia-Material, she is far more than a "con artist", but a veritable literary genius, and we should be probing into her background, and how she had such familiarity with important pagan and Gnostic themes as are found in the Aradia Material.


i'd like to know if there is evidence for actual witches

Read Eva Pocs. Self-identified witches who were identified with fairies who ended up in Inquisition trials.

The deconstructive dismissiveness must be irrationally rampant if someone can ask whether there were ever real, self-identified witches. This has gotten to a ridiculous level.

How can you possibly say -- make the audacious statement -- that there were no witches killed during the Burning Times? That is just plain ignorance!!! Even if you remain agnostic regarding a Gardnerian Historical Tradition, the fact is so plain and bold that both cunning-folk as well as members of the Canon Cult were subjected to the persecution that it is incredible to me that it can be denied!!

[David19]

Ok, if you're claiming that Maddalena created the Aradia-Material, she is far more than a "con artist", but a veritable literary genius, and we should be probing into her background, and how she had such familiarity with important pagan and Gnostic themes as are found in the Aradia Material.

I can see the 'pagan' themes in Aradia (e.g. Diana, etc), but where exactly are the Gnostic themes, if it was Gnostic, then there should've been a mention of Jesus being an incorporeal spirit/supernatural being, of Yahweh being 'evil' or the 'demiurge', of Sophia, etc, when, from what i can tell, it doesn't mention anything like that.



Read Eva Pocs. Self-identified witches who were identified with fairies who ended up in Inquisition trials.

The deconstructive dismissiveness must be irrationally rampant if someone can ask whether there were ever real, self-identified witches. This has gotten to a ridiculous level.

I'm only asking 'cause no one seems to have provided actual, scholarly quotes that there were people who self-identified as witches (and even if you take the confessions as literal during the 'burning times', how do you know people were actually witches e.g. during the Inquisition, Jews 'coverted' to Catholicism, to stop the torture (and then they were burned alive anyway), so 'confessions' can't be taken as 'truthful')).



How can you possibly say -- make the audacious statement -- that there were no witches killed during the Burning Times? That is just plain ignorance!!! Even if you remain agnostic regarding a Gardnerian Historical Tradition, the fact is so plain and bold that both cunning-folk as well as members of the Canon Cult were subjected to the persecution that it is incredible to me that it can be denied!!

But, according to what i've heard and read, Cunning folk weren't witches, and in fact, were anti-witches (they sold their magical services to protect against witchcraft, etc), and from what i've also been told, they weren't exactly the most honest people (e.g. it was in their business interests to say there were witches, like if i sold dragon repellants, it would be in my interest to keep saying there really were dragons flying around the world, killing people, etc).

I'd like to know how you know those people who were called 'witches' were really witches, they, most likely, IMO, were probably Christians or Jews (maybe, in the U.S., you might get Native American's being burned, but that's about as close to anything 'pagan' as you'd get, IMO, anyway).

What i'm really interested is if anyone can provide quotes or examples of famous, historical, actual, self-identified witches.

[Ben Gruagach]

But, according to what i've heard and read, Cunning folk weren't witches, and in fact, were anti-witches (they sold their magical services to protect against witchcraft, etc), and from what i've also been told, they weren't exactly the most honest people (e.g. it was in their business interests to say there were witches, like if i sold dragon repellants, it would be in my interest to keep saying there really were dragons flying around the world, killing people, etc).

I'd like to know how you know those people who were called 'witches' were really witches, they, most likely, IMO, were probably Christians or Jews (maybe, in the U.S., you might get Native American's being burned, but that's about as close to anything 'pagan' as you'd get, IMO, anyway).

What i'm really interested is if anyone can provide quotes or examples of famous, historical, actual, self-identified witches.

The cunning folk documented in Owen Davies' books seem to have self-identified as witches or not as witches depending on the circumstance. If it would be bad for business to be labelled a witch then they'd insist they were not witches. If it was good for business then they'd say they WERE witches. (Most of the time though they would insist that their competition in the cunning folk business were the witches responsible for all the bad luck!)

One point that comes out of your post quoted above is the misunderstanding that a witch has to be automatically a Pagan. Many of the cunning folk (and even self-identified witches) considered themselves Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever.

"The Black Books of Elverum" edited by Mary S. Rustad is a perfect example of what is clearly a personal witchcraft handbook, dating back to at least the 1800s, where the practitioner was also very clearly Christian.

I'm not sure though if anyone can satisfy your request for a famous historical self-identified witch. The ones discussed in Owen Davies' books are not exactly famous, and most of the famous cunning folk didn't self-identify as witches.

[David19]

The cunning folk documented in Owen Davies' books seem to have self-identified as witches or not as witches depending on the circumstance. If it would be bad for business to be labelled a witch then they'd insist they were not witches. If it was good for business then they'd say they WERE witches. (Most of the time though they would insist that their competition in the cunning folk business were the witches responsible for all the bad luck!)

One point that comes out of your post quoted above is the misunderstanding that a witch has to be automatically a Pagan. Many of the cunning folk (and even self-identified witches) considered themselves Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever.

"The Black Books of Elverum" edited by Mary S. Rustad is a perfect example of what is clearly a personal witchcraft handbook, dating back to at least the 1800s, where the practitioner was also very clearly Christian.

I'm not sure though if anyone can satisfy your request for a famous historical self-identified witch. The ones discussed in Owen Davies' books are not exactly famous, and most of the famous cunning folk didn't self-identify as witches.

Thanks for that, i guess i was just wondering if there were actual witches, who called themselves witches (and not just people who were called witches, 'cause in a sense, i could say my next door neighbour is a witch, but it doesn't make it so).

But thanks, you've really helped, and also given me some ideas for books, i've heard a lot of great things about Owen Davies, and the Black Books of Elverum, i'm especially interested in people who used both Christian and 'pagan' elements of magic (there's a few people who'll say there's nothing Christian about them, and even if they use Jesus or the devil, it's actually a 'cover' for a 'pagan' god, something i don't share (i know there are 'pagans' who call their god the devil, e.g. the Crookedheath, and 'Robin Artisson', but, lets just say, he's not that trustworthy, according to some very knowledgeable people i know, including a few Traditional (Cochrane) witches)).

Ok, i went off topic towards the end, but thanks :), and do you know of any other books, like the Black Books of Elverum, or any good works on Cunning folk?.

[Carla O'Harris]

Many of the cunning folk (and even self-identified witches) considered themselves Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever.

Just as a methodological point, how do you determine what they considered themselves? I mean, in an age where admitting anything else could get you killed?

[Carla O'Harris]

I can see the 'pagan' themes in Aradia (e.g. Diana, etc), but where exactly are the Gnostic themes, if it was Gnostic, then there should've been a mention of Jesus being an incorporeal spirit/supernatural being, of Yahweh being 'evil' or the 'demiurge', of Sophia, etc, when, from what i can tell, it doesn't mention anything like that.

You're just going to have to study Gnosticism a little bit more. It's worthy of the study, and very rewarding. Gnosticism is not equal to mention of Jesus. There are many different varieties. I saw the Gnostic strand immediately on reading Aradia, but you don't have to just take my word for it. In the expanded edition of Aradia (a very important book), one of the authors who has studied it points out the same thing.





I'm only asking 'cause no one seems to have provided actual, scholarly quotes that there were people who self-identified as witches (and even if you take the confessions as literal during the 'burning times', how do you know people were actually witches e.g. during the Inquisition, Jews 'coverted' to Catholicism, to stop the torture (and then they were burned alive anyway), so 'confessions' can't be taken as 'truthful')).

I've given you a source. Go check it out.

Your logic would suggest that paganesque witches, like Jews, would "convert" to stop the torture. Were the Jews not to be believed when under torture they confessed to Judaism, even if that appears in Christian-black-stereotyped form in the records?





But, according to what i've heard and read, Cunning folk weren't witches, and in fact, were anti-witches (they sold their magical services to protect against witchcraft, etc), and from what i've also been told, they weren't exactly the most honest people (e.g. it was in their business interests to say there were witches, like if i sold dragon repellants, it would be in my interest to keep saying there really were dragons flying around the world, killing people, etc).

The semantical shifts do make it difficult to sort out. That there were competitors who set themselves out to turn in actual witches, I have no doubt, but before we can assess that, we have to see how the Christian church turned the word "witch", originally a largely positive (with the usual European ambivalence towards the supernatural, but with a largely positive slant) term, into a term with connotations equivalent to evil, vampiric beings.

Let's use an example. For the last twenty years or so, the Right-wing in this country has been demonizing the word "liberal" so that people are often frightened to use a word (a word that hides an important pagan god within it, I might add!). This is fairly mild. But suppose things progressed to the point where there were real persecutions, and much heavier black-propaganda against the term. Eventually no one would really want to use the term, except for maybe a few courageous souls who held on to the original meaning.

Or let's take another example. Suppose that reaction in this country became so fascist that simply to be an environmentalist became identified with being an "eco-terrorist", and then simply with being a "terrorist". Well, "terrorist" is mainly a Bogey-man term these days anyway. Eventually, the word "environmentalist" would mean Bogey-man.

Well, witches originally did negotiate with and help protect people from forces beyond the hedge, including wights who were quite malevolent (such as thurses), so for them to contract to help people from Bogeymen makes sense, even if the term for Bogeymen had shifted.

Secondly, there has always been an ambivalence between the notions of "witches" and "fairies", due to the intimate connection of the fairy-cult with witch-activity, and fairies are largely positive beings with a large degree of ambivalence (as they can punish humans for violating their fairy-rules). In some areas, some people thought of them in more frightened ways. Customs to ward off "witches" are often very similar to customs to ward off "fairies" elsewhere.

Those who help protect others from "witches" therefore may very well be witches in the original sense of the term without being witches in the maligned sense of the term.




I'd like to know how you know those people who were called 'witches' were really witches, they, most likely, IMO, were probably Christians or Jews (maybe, in the U.S., you might get Native American's being burned, but that's about as close to anything 'pagan' as you'd get, IMO, anyway).


Well, David19, you seem to have swallowed enough historical revisionism that you have a problem accepting the notion of pagan survivals. I suggest you do some more reading, because there is plenty of evidence regardless of what anyone says.

If they were all "Christians", man, they were some strange-ass Christians. That's ok. I have no doubt that they syncretized Christian material into their matrix as well. Probably best to call them "christo-pagans" if you're going to call them anything.


What i'm really interested is if anyone can provide quotes or examples of famous, historical, actual, self-identified witches.

Maybe you should start by reading Murray. She collects quotes from people who proudly identified witchcraft as their religion and went to the flames laughing.

But other than those few examples, expecting people to stand up in the middle of Inquisitional times and write down, "Hi, I'm a pagan witch" is like wanting them to etch a target on themselves.

[covenofkeys]

one way or t'other david19, there were witches and have always been. i can trace back quite a few years myself, and i use the term witch proudly.
-you should try it -you might like it! lol

[Faol-chù]

Secondly, there has always been an ambivalence between the notions of "witches" and "fairies", due to the intimate connection of the fairy-cult with witch-activity, and fairies are largely positive beings with a large degree of ambivalence (as they can punish humans for violating their fairy-rules). In some areas, some people thought of them in more frightened ways. Customs to ward off "witches" are often very similar to customs to ward off "fairies" elsewhere.

I'd be interested to know from where you suppose this 'fairy cult' derived.



Well, David19, you seem to have swallowed enough historical revisionism that you have a problem accepting the notion of pagan survivals. I suggest you do some more reading, because there is plenty of evidence regardless of what anyone says.

Actually, I think you're the one who has swallowed the 'historical revisionism'.


If they were all "Christians", man, they were some strange-ass Christians.

How, exactly, were they strange?


Maybe you should start by reading Murray. She collects quotes from people who proudly identified witchcraft as their religion and went to the flames laughing.

Murray's 'history' has, in the past, been shown to be quite 'off'.;


Le meas,

[Carla O'Harris]

I'd be interested to know from where you suppose this 'fairy cult' derived.

It derived directly from pre-Christian pagan worship and we can even trace this direct descent in several cases. In some isolated cases, some of these fairy-god-folk-figures continued even in name down into modern times.

There's really no ambiguity about it, and I'm quite comfortable asserting it as pretty much an absolute, because the evidence is all on my side in this case.




How, exactly, were they strange?

Let's see, I'm trying to find in the Bible where it says that one should leave offerings for fairy divinities, consult them for divination, astral project to fairy-Sabbat occasions, feasting and dancing with them ... hmmm ... I can't find any support for this activity whatsoever in the Bible ... and waitaminute ... it's not really Catholic doctrine either ... hmmmmmmm....




Murray's 'history' has, in the past, been shown to be quite 'off'.[/QUOTE]

No, certain aspects of that history have been. Her quotations, on the other hand, are directly from source, and those sources do indeed indicate everything I've just said.

[Protagonist]

This is something that's brought up a lot in threads (both here and elsewhere), some people say there weren't any witches, pre-Gardner, other say there were and that they were a 'People' survival, and others say there were witches, but they were most likely Christian witches, but is there any evidence for any witches, pre-Gardner, and what kinds of witches were there.

I've heard about Ozark witches (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/o/ozark_witchcraft_folklore.html) and Appalachian witchcraft (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usnc&c=trads&id=3207), but is there evidence for any others.

This isn't a rant or anything about one way or the other, it's just something i'm interested in and would like to see the evidence.

Thanks for any help :).
Of course there were pre-Gardnerian witches. There weren't any pre-Gardnerian Wiccans, but that's something different altogether. Gardner didn't create Wicca out of hand - he wasn't L. Ron. Hubbard. He drew a lot from already-existing traditions, many of them related to fairy lore and folk magic. He also borrowed a lot of the structure of the religion from Thelema. There's plenty of evidence for all of this. I doubt most of the pre-Gardnerian witches were "Christian witches" though. More likely, they were agnostic, or just Christian by default. I doubt it was common or anything, but there were people who practiced magic. There is evidence for witchcraft practiced by nuns in convents, though, and, of course, there were plenty of Christian ceremonial magicians.

[David19]

Of course there were pre-Gardnerian witches. There weren't any pre-Gardnerian Wiccans, but that's something different altogether. Gardner didn't create Wicca out of hand - he wasn't L. Ron. Hubbard. He drew a lot from already-existing traditions, many of them related to fairy lore and folk magic. He also borrowed a lot of the structure of the religion from Thelema. There's plenty of evidence for all of this. I doubt most of the pre-Gardnerian witches were "Christian witches" though. More likely, they were agnostic, or just Christian by default. I doubt it was common or anything, but there were people who practiced magic. There is evidence for witchcraft practiced by nuns in convents, though, and, of course, there were plenty of Christian ceremonial magicians.

Thanks for that, i'm only 20 so i don't know too much about witchcraft history, but i'm interested in learning a lot about different forms, from Christian magic to 'pagan', etc.

I've heard about nuns in convents practicing magic, but what type of magic did they practice exactly?, i think i've heard of talismans and amulets calling on Jesus, angels, Saints, etc but i can't think of what else?.

Thanks again :).

[covenofkeys]

you could always start by accepting that some do actually know what theyre talking about-no im not being sarcastic or funny with you in any way,just some friendly advice, ok then you need to be an assimilator of info, and find out all you can whilst keeping an open and un-biased opinion.when you feel that you have thoroughly studied your texts and sources, then you can answer your own questions, pretty much.
it could take forever learning this stuff-but if you truly are interested-youll search and find your own truth.then you will know what is, from what is not. good luck then.x

[Faol-chù]

Hello, Carla...

I asked where you believed the fairy cult derived. You said:


It derived directly from pre-Christian pagan worship and we can even trace this direct descent in several cases. In some isolated cases, some of these fairy-god-folk-figures continued even in name down into modern times.

There's really no ambiguity about it, and I'm quite comfortable asserting it as pretty much an absolute, because the evidence is all on my side in this case.

I'm quite aware of the 'fairy-god-folk-figures'. (Although in most cases, there is a huge question as to whether or not they were thought of in the same light as 'gods'.)

To me, what really muddies the water is the fact that the word "witch", nor any actual "equivalent" existed in any extant language in Britain or Ireland, prior to Latin and Anglo-Saxon influence.
Not only that, no person would have ever referred to themselves as such.



Let's see, I'm trying to find in the Bible where it says that one should leave offerings for fairy divinities, consult them for divination, astral project to fairy-Sabbat occasions, feasting and dancing with them ... hmmm ... I can't find any support for this activity whatsoever in the Bible ... and waitaminute ... it's not really Catholic doctrine either ... hmmmmmmm....

Well, see, good *Christian* folk, straight up until at least the late 1800's (if not more recent!) did things related to a 'fairy' cult.
If you had told them what they were doing was "pagan", they would have been quite upset with you.
The things they were doing were NOT out of the norm, but were quite commonly accepted in the community. Other Christian folk would openly seek them out for help.
It was the priests and reverends who often had trouble with it...But even at that not all of them did. (It seems that the more Protestant they were, the more trouble they had.)
In fact, Rev. Robert Kirk wrote a book called The Secret Commonwealth largely to an English-speaking audience to explain his Gaelic-speaker's view of such practices. He was extremely sympathetic so such practices, and, for himself, he did not see them as "unChristian".

BTW, the Catholic church, early on, understood the need for people to connect with the land, and realized that the Catholic practices did not allow for such. They **allowed** practices which did such to continue for that reason...although they were often 'altered' to fit into a Christian worldview.

The view of what a 'witch' is in modern English is greatly influenced by the Protestant viewpoint of 'everything that is not "God" being "pagan", and, therefore, unacceptable.

This is revisionist history, if there ever was such.





I said:


Murray's 'history' has, in the past, been shown to be quite 'off'.


You replied:


No, certain aspects of that history have been. Her quotations, on the other hand, are directly from source, and those sources do indeed indicate everything I've just said.

I'd love examples of what it is you are talking about, or at least to know exactly where you are getting it from.


Le meas,

[Faol-chù]

Sorry for the double post, yet again...

[David19]

you could always start by accepting that some do actually know what theyre talking about-no im not being sarcastic or funny with you in any way,just some friendly advice, ok then you need to be an assimilator of info, and find out all you can whilst keeping an open and un-biased opinion.when you feel that you have thoroughly studied your texts and sources, then you can answer your own questions, pretty much.
it could take forever learning this stuff-but if you truly are interested-youll search and find your own truth.then you will know what is, from what is not. good luck then.x

Thanks for the advice, i'll do that :).

[covenofkeys]

hey no problem-as i have explained to you in the private message, you may run into difficulties in this area,{i have explained to you why this may be}- but what you do find out should be enough for you eventually to discover the truth.
good luck.
blessed be, nightshade.x