The Christian God and You?

[Sobeq]

Hello all!

I have a strange question which I debate with myself often. I would just like to let everyone know that I promise, I'm not trying to start trouble, and I would appreciate if everyone would... I don't know, not-fight?

Also, please note that by Christian God, I mean Abrahamic. I just typed most of this and realised that I meant Abrahamic the entire time, and I really don't feel like changing all of it. Thank you!

I know many soft polytheists would agree with the "All Gods are one big smooshed together Diety." I could never figure out whether or not to include the Christian God in this, as the Christian God insisted that he was the only God to be worshipped, and that you would go to hell if you didn't. Late rin the Bible, the Christian God is said to have said that he was the ONLY God. What happened to the other Gods he acknowledged in the Old Testament? Oh well.

Anyways, my biggest question for all of you is:

If you acknowledge the existence of the Christian God, why do you follow other Gods, knowing that there is a God who wants you to go to Hell? What makes you so sure you're right and he's wrong? If you don't acknowledge the Christian God, why not? Do you acknowledge other Gods from outside of your tradition/pantheon of choice?

Again, I don't mean to start trouble. I'm no more Christian than the next Pagan here. But I worry about this sometimes, because I was terrified of hell when I was younger, and I kind of still am. Oh well. Thanks for your input in advance, all.

--
Dani

[Avalanche]

As far as I'm concerned, any and all gods may or may not exist. Basically, I acknowledge the existance of gods other than the ones I choose to worship. I just may not like them. I guess I choose the path I'm following because it fit. Or maybe the path chose me.

If you acknowledge the existence of the Christian God, why do you follow other Gods, knowing that there is a God who wants you to go to Hell?

If a god wants something bad to happen to me, screw him. And to me, Hel has one l and is Loki's daughter. I also feel that any god who wants to pretend to be the only god and think he's so much better is stupid. Although, maybe he doesn't think that. Maybe humans made that part up. My gods are cooler. Yeah. That's my reason.

What makes you so sure you're right and he's wrong?

I'm not. Anything's possible. Maybe there is one big jerk of a god hanging around. And if that is the case, I think I'd rather hang out with Satan. Seems like a nice guy. Unless I could somehow get some sort of scientific evidence proving or disproving the existance of any/all gods, I'd never be completely sure. But I'm happy with my life and all that. Faith, or something like that.

[BlueWaves]

I've wondered this as well, but see, that's like the whole Roman Pantheon... adding "humanity" to a god figure...?

[Rasenna]

Hello all!

I have a strange question which I debate with myself often. I would just like to let everyone know that I promise, I'm not trying to start trouble, and I would appreciate if everyone would... I don't know, not-fight?

Also, please note that by Christian God, I mean Abrahamic. I just typed most of this and realised that I meant Abrahamic the entire time, and I really don't feel like changing all of it. Thank you!

I know many soft polytheists would agree with the "All Gods are one big smooshed together Diety." I could never figure out whether or not to include the Christian God in this, as the Christian God insisted that he was the only God to be worshipped, and that you would go to hell if you didn't. Late rin the Bible, the Christian God is said to have said that he was the ONLY God. What happened to the other Gods he acknowledged in the Old Testament? Oh well.

Anyways, my biggest question for all of you is:

If you acknowledge the existence of the Christian God, why do you follow other Gods, knowing that there is a God who wants you to go to Hell? What makes you so sure you're right and he's wrong? If you don't acknowledge the Christian God, why not? Do you acknowledge other Gods from outside of your tradition/pantheon of choice?

Again, I don't mean to start trouble. I'm no more Christian than the next Pagan here. But I worry about this sometimes, because I was terrified of hell when I was younger, and I kind of still am. Oh well. Thanks for your input in advance, all.

--
Dani

Hi, Dani.
First of all, I don't recognize the god of the OT and the God of the NT as being one and the same god because I have studied Gnosticism and when you read the Bible Gnostically, several previously not-so-obvious things jump out at you.
For starters, the God of Genesis I is titled God--yet was originally titled Elohim, which is a plurasistic pronoun. In contrast, the god of Genesis II is titled LORD--which has a different connotation altogether than the term God does. Of course, in turn, the term God has a different connotation than the term Elohim does. (If you study linguistics at all, which I do on a novice level...)
I cannot speak for soft polytheism, as I myself am a hard polytheist. However, I *can* say that when I am speaking to a non-pagan or non-heathen audience, I prefer to use the term "God" because it is one that is more easily recognizable to the general populace.
The easiest answer to your question would be that I *do* acknowledge the Christian god, just as I acknowledge the Norse Gods and Goddesses, but neither his story or Their stories have anything to do with my tradition, so I don't spend a great deal of energy on any of Them.
Having said that, social conditioning is a mighty powerful thing, and many of us have struggled in the past (some--like you--are still struggling) with mainstream indoctrination. A lot of people cannot escape this social conditioning, and return to Christianity. There is nothing wrong with that, except that often times they will then spread misinformation or even outright lies about what they experienced as having been drug or demon inspired rather than truly spiritual.

[mystic_peacock]

Hello!
This is a great question. And I totally understand why you're asking it. I, too, used to be terrifed of hell even though I told myself I didn't believe in it. It's just something I went through while changing my mindset from Christian to Pagan.

I acknowledge other gods (including the Abrahamic God) as symbols and archetypes humans use to connect with the Mother Goddess and Father God types... faces used to connect with the Soul of the Universe, so to speak. I see the Bible as the "instructions" for those that are Christian... the proselytizing that goes on, to me, is simply the religion's way of growing and gaining new members. Remember, Christianity used to be a fringe-cult until it started forcibly gaining members. I think that the threat of hell is one of the methods used in order to make sure Pagans converted would stick with the new religion.

I acknowledge the Abrahamic God as one of the Many Faces. I don't fear hell anymore because of the above reason. However, if I am wrong and all the Gods and Goddesses are individuals, I still am not worried, and that is because: I think that Gods and Goddesses establish these "rules of worship" that their followers... follow (hehe), but they don't necessarily expect everyone to follow them. For example, if I am a follower of the Greek pantheon and I felt that I had to follow the ancient rules, that's one thing. But the Hindu gods probably wouldn't care a wit about me because They have enough pious children as it is. So with the Abrahamic God, he may expect his flock to follow very specific rules laid out before them by Him or His messengers, but has so many people following him that he's not going to go out of his way to make sure everyone follows the rules.
That's what I believe anyway. Does that make any sense? I hope so...

I also think that if gods do exist (many or one or two or what have you), they wouldn't punish us for things they created us to do. Yes, you shouldn't lie and cheat and steal and murder because those are the moral laws put upon us by society and our own feelings of ethics or guilt. But if the gods really really hated lying, why would they make us able to lie? Just so that they could blast us into oblivion and make us spend eternity in agony? The gods are like our parents, and kind loving parents wouldn't wish that upon their children. That's how I view it. :)

I think that Hell is a constuct of humans to ensure the doing of good and righteous deeds.

Also, on a side note, I read in the paper today about a book called "Satan: A Biography" posing a very good-sounding theory that Satan isn't the enemy of God, but really his right-hand man because humans don't want to see God get his hands dirty. According to the article, Satan is the one that tests the moral strength of God's followers (such as Job and Abraham, etc) by giving them tests like temptation. Just something I thought was neat.

Aaaanyway, yes. Those are my thoughts. Great question!
--Serra



Hello all!

I have a strange question which I debate with myself often. I would just like to let everyone know that I promise, I'm not trying to start trouble, and I would appreciate if everyone would... I don't know, not-fight?

Also, please note that by Christian God, I mean Abrahamic. I just typed most of this and realised that I meant Abrahamic the entire time, and I really don't feel like changing all of it. Thank you!

I know many soft polytheists would agree with the "All Gods are one big smooshed together Diety." I could never figure out whether or not to include the Christian God in this, as the Christian God insisted that he was the only God to be worshipped, and that you would go to hell if you didn't. Late rin the Bible, the Christian God is said to have said that he was the ONLY God. What happened to the other Gods he acknowledged in the Old Testament? Oh well.

Anyways, my biggest question for all of you is:

If you acknowledge the existence of the Christian God, why do you follow other Gods, knowing that there is a God who wants you to go to Hell? What makes you so sure you're right and he's wrong? If you don't acknowledge the Christian God, why not? Do you acknowledge other Gods from outside of your tradition/pantheon of choice?

Again, I don't mean to start trouble. I'm no more Christian than the next Pagan here. But I worry about this sometimes, because I was terrified of hell when I was younger, and I kind of still am. Oh well. Thanks for your input in advance, all.

--
Dani

[Xentor]

If you acknowledge the existence of the Christian God, why do you follow other Gods, knowing that there is a God who wants you to go to Hell? What makes you so sure you're right and he's wrong?

Why do you think it has anything to do with right or wrong? Wouldn't you rather think it has something to do with purpose and power? Maybe the christian god has their own purpose in a grander scheme of the universe?

[plumedsnake]

Hello all!
What happened to the other Gods he acknowledged in the Old Testament? Oh well.

Anyways, my biggest question for all of you is:

If you acknowledge the existence of the Christian God, why do you follow other Gods, knowing that there is a God who wants you to go to Hell? What makes you so sure you're right and he's wrong? If you don't acknowledge the Christian God, why not? Do you acknowledge other Gods from outside of your tradition/pantheon of choice?

Dani

The cult of Yahweh was not the only cult that the Jews followed despite his so called jealousy. It seems Yahweh is capable of delegating when he realises that a problem is beyond his capabilities.
For instance, (I can't really remember the name of the diety, but it was chthonic) there is the time the israelites were afflicted by fiery serpents. The solution was the introduction of the cult of the the bronze serpent, whose name I can't remember. Moses put the serpent on a rod and told the israelites to worship it in order to cure their affliction. It worked and this diety was worshipped in israel for a long time in the temple alongside with yahweh until some zealous king burst into the temple and destroyed the image. However this cult was originally sanctioned by yahweh.

Even up until christian times the cult though not worshiped in the temple anymore remained a strong symbol that they recognised. When christ died they described him in the symbol of the serpent that was raised in the wilderness and howeversoever looked upon him would be saved. The imagery was still strong then and everyone knew what was been referred to.

[Wolfpoet]

Hi, Dani.
First of all, I don't recognize the god of the OT and the God of the NT as being one and the same god because I have studied Gnosticism and when you read the Bible Gnostically, several previously not-so-obvious things jump out at you.
For starters, the God of Genesis I is titled God--yet was originally titled Elohim, which is a plurasistic pronoun. In contrast, the god of Genesis II is titled LORD--which has a different connotation altogether than the term God does. Of course, in turn, the term God has a different connotation than the term Elohim does. (If you study linguistics at all, which I do on a novice level...)
.

I'm of a similar opinion. Old and New testament just don't match. old testament God is a very pro-actove, he gets involved sticks up for the Jews and slams anybody that pisses him off. Similar to Gods in other pantheons infact.

New testament Gods seems to have given up realy. Leaves things up to the people, let them sort this mess out. He doesn't get involved, sure he sent his Son down to get killed but that's hardly pro-active.

The Christian God, in my mind is as valid as Zeus or Odin. To be honest i find myself following old catholic practices even though I follow the path of my Pagan ancestors.

Just because the Christyians can't accept Odin or Zeus doesn't mean pagans should reciprocate and refuse to accept the Christian God. It's a big universe out there, room for everybody's Deity

[Sobeq]

Hi all! Thanks for answering.

Avalanche: I am normally of a similar mind as you, but every so often, when the concept of what a crappy place hell is supposed to be is brought to my attention, I'm really pretty much freaked out. I don't like the idea of being burned in fire for a VERY LONG TIME.

Rasenna: The differences in terminology used when referring to the Abrahamic God are what I originally used to justify my path to myself. I had heard that Elohim is a plural word, but I wasn't sure of the truth of the claims. And I would not deny the existence of any God, but unfortunately this God seems to be one who is bent on sending anyone who follows him to a bad place. I wonder, though, if he is actually able to do this...

Mystic_Peacock: That's another good idea, about different rules for different followers -- it explains why some people believe they were created by one deity and others another -- obviously you can't claim that there is ONLY ONE GOD who created everyone. Otherwise everyone would be worshipping him. Also, the idea of Hell being a human concept is appealing. It's been way too long since I read my Bible, but I'm not sure how many references there are to burning in Hell for all eternity in the actual Bible. And I know that there's not to much in there about Satan, either, other than the fact that he was the source of great temptation. I know (or rather, can speculate) that many of the concepts of Satan which we have today came from church officials, way back when. I have a friend who believes that Christianity is the only way, because it is the only faith which actively proselytises. I find this to be a counterproductive argument, as almost any other faith which actively recruits new members is considered to be a cult.

Xentor: What sort of purpose? I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong -- but it doesn't really matter to me so long as I'm not thrown in some fiery pit for all eternity.

PlumedSnake: I remember that story, vaguely, but I don't remember them worshipping it as a God. Hm. Interesting thoughts to chew on.

WolfPoet: I acknowledge the existence of all Gods, really, but what I'm curious about is how do you justify not worshipping the Christian God, knowing he exists and knowing his demands of people.

[Xentor]

Xentor: What sort of purpose? I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong -- but it doesn't really matter to me so long as I'm not thrown in some fiery pit for all eternity.

Ah... you seem to fit in with that group of pagans that aren't assured in their own religion, because "the Christians could be right".

Really now, with all the people that claim to go to Heaven these days, where would you rather spend eternity? I know where I go if the Christians are right. And I have no problem with that. No fear. This allows me to go on and pursue my own path.

[Twinkle]

I'm of a similar opinion. Old and New testament just don't match. old testament God is a very pro-actove, he gets involved sticks up for the Jews and slams anybody that pisses him off. Similar to Gods in other pantheons infact.

New testament Gods seems to have given up realy. Leaves things up to the people, let them sort this mess out. He doesn't get involved, sure he sent his Son down to get killed but that's hardly pro-active.

The Christian God, in my mind is as valid as Zeus or Odin. To be honest i find myself following old catholic practices even though I follow the path of my Pagan ancestors.

Just because the Christyians can't accept Odin or Zeus doesn't mean pagans should reciprocate and refuse to accept the Christian God. It's a big universe out there, room for everybody's Deity


The New Testament God is different from the OT God because Jesus came down and explained God better...the vengeful God of the OT is just one aspect of God....Jesus taught everyone that God is also loving and kind.

At least that's how it was explained to me....

To get back to the Original questions.....I don't accept the Christian god at all...but that's probably because I don't believe that all gods are one god.

[Sobeq]

Xentor: You're absolutely right I'm not certain in my path. I feel more comfortable with my religion now than I ever did in Christianity, but there's always the lingering doubt. You do have a darn good point, though. There's alot of people who claim to be good Christians who I just would NOT want around me. Ever. I was one of those kids who never got their religion explained very well to them, though, so I was terrified of Hell even as a younger girl. It's gonna take a damn long while for that to wear off, I think. I'll take any pointers about how to shake it off, though.

Twinkle: I can't help but acknowledge the existence of the Christian God. If I acknowledge the existence of the Greek and Roman Gods, I can't deny just one God. You know? I have a hard time believing that all Gods are archetypes -- They're all individuals but made up of the same stuff, if you know what I mean.

[Thunder]

Hi all! Thanks for answering.

Avalanche: I am normally of a similar mind as you, but every so often, when the concept of what a crappy place hell is supposed to be is brought to my attention, I'm really pretty much freaked out. I don't like the idea of being burned in fire for a VERY LONG TIME.

Rasenna: The differences in terminology used when referring to the Abrahamic God are what I originally used to justify my path to myself. I had heard that Elohim is a plural word, but I wasn't sure of the truth of the claims. And I would not deny the existence of any God, but unfortunately this God seems to be one who is bent on sending anyone who follows him to a bad place. I wonder, though, if he is actually able to do this...

Mystic_Peacock: That's another good idea, about different rules for different followers -- it explains why some people believe they were created by one deity and others another -- obviously you can't claim that there is ONLY ONE GOD who created everyone. Otherwise everyone would be worshipping him. Also, the idea of Hell being a human concept is appealing. It's been way too long since I read my Bible, but I'm not sure how many references there are to burning in Hell for all eternity in the actual Bible. And I know that there's not to much in there about Satan, either, other than the fact that he was the source of great temptation. I know (or rather, can speculate) that many of the concepts of Satan which we have today came from church officials, way back when. I have a friend who believes that Christianity is the only way, because it is the only faith which actively proselytises. I find this to be a counterproductive argument, as almost any other faith which actively recruits new members is considered to be a cult.

Xentor: What sort of purpose? I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong -- but it doesn't really matter to me so long as I'm not thrown in some fiery pit for all eternity.

PlumedSnake: I remember that story, vaguely, but I don't remember them worshipping it as a God. Hm. Interesting thoughts to chew on.

WolfPoet: I acknowledge the existence of all Gods, really, but what I'm curious about is how do you justify not worshipping the Christian God, knowing he exists and knowing his demands of people.

With the exception of a few televangelists, modern christian movements do not define hell as eternal damnation in the fiery pit anymore. If perfect love and ecstasy can be defined as being in the presence of God then hell is defined as being as far removed from God's presence as possible. Paradoxically, in my view, if this is true... then for those who do not even believe in God, hell must be eternal "Life as we currently know it".

In my opinion, the old testament vs the new testament thing is moot. Jesus stated that he had not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. The new testament God was by definition different from the old.

In my further opinion... Any and all arguments that center around "What" we call god leave me frantically looking for someone to share my mirth. If you believe that there is a god... and if you believe that god created everything that IS including us.... can you seriously argue that such an all powerful being gives a rat's ass what word we use to refer to him/her?????? Dear god.

In my even further yet opinion... I personally don't believe in an individual god with rules and jealousy and vengeance. I believe in a collective god force that can be called upon and whose energy can and does affect and change our reality.

Just My Opinion.

[David19]

I believe that Yahweh exists (whether he's the Christian god too is another question, though), even if there are 2 seperate gods, i believe in them, 'cause, like what wolfpoet says, it's what polytheism is about, accepting the gods of others, as well as your own (and not just saying that another god is the same one as yours, as some people seem to do, who put a 'Indo-European' slant on everything).

To me, while i haven't had many experiences with deities, i rely on what i feel, i probably can't explain it, but i feel that Yahweh, the Christian god, Zeus, Odin, Thor, El, Ra, Isis, Aphrodite, Eris, etc all exist as independent gods with their own personalities, etc.

Interestingly, i was reading on one site that the god that Jesus worshipped was called Aba (or something like that), a unknown god at the time, who took pity on Yahweh's followers or something.

To me, Gnostic Christianity does have a lot of cool things in it, and i do like it, despite it not being my path (but i do want to learn about it, though), although i disagree with the belief that Yahweh is 'evil', i see him more as being neither 'good' nor 'evil' (even the Old Testament says it, he 'forms the light and makes darkness').

I agree with what wolfpoet says 'cause it makes sense, a fundamentalist may not accept that Zeus, Isis, Odin, Thor, etc exist, but that doesn't mean Pagans can't believe that Yahweh, the Christian god, Allah, Jesus, etc don't exist.

[Shanti]

I don't believe in any gods/goddesses because I have never felt any. That's doesn't mean they are not real for others. It only means they dont exist in my own reality. I also believe we all walk on a different strand in all different fabrics so the gods may truly exist, on other strands, perhaps in other fabrics, than the ones I walk on.

[Cat]

I believe in the Xtian god as much as I believe in any god. I do not worship him, or follow him.

I find the idea of a deity who is at once omnipotent, omniscient, and all good to be contradictory. A god who at the very least allows soem of the horrible things that go on now and have in the past to happen while having the power to change them--that's not a deity I would worship.

While he might send his followers to hell, I'm not one of them. He has no claim on me. If the Xtian view of the universe is right and I'm just deluding myself...I can't even complete that sentence because I can't believe that. But that's the point of free will, isn't it? We make our own choices, and we pay the price.

[Sobeq]

David19: Well, I would never deny the existence of any God, I was simply curious as to how you justify not following him, since he makes such big scary threats.

Shanti: I guess that makes sense. But you've got lots of people telling you that you're pretty much screwed because you don't believe in him. How do you justify that?

Cat: Now see, that is a very logical point... I happen to like the concept that you go wherever you think you go. But that seems very fanciful to me sometimes.

I think in light of the recent events on the board I should clarify... I'm not Christian... I don't want anyone to be Christian unless they want to... I just want to know peoples' reasoning behind NOT following Christianity.

That is all.

[Thunder]

David19: Well, I would never deny the existence of any God, I was simply curious as to how you justify not following him, since he makes such big scary threats.

Shanti: I guess that makes sense. But you've got lots of people telling you that you're pretty much screwed because you don't believe in him. How do you justify that?

Cat: Now see, that is a very logical point... I happen to like the concept that you go wherever you think you go. But that seems very fanciful to me sometimes.

I think in light of the recent events on the board I should clarify... I'm not Christian... I don't want anyone to be Christian unless they want to... I just want to know peoples' reasoning behind NOT following Christianity.

That is all.

I think you will find that it is his followers who make the threats. They cannot be backed up by scripture. God in the new testament is loving and forgiving. Christians are supposed to follow the new testament not the old. Christ never preached damnation. The problem with most religions is the people who follow the "Law" without understanding it.

[Sobeq]

I think you will find that it is his followers who make the threats. They cannot be backed up by scripture. God in the new testament is loving and forgiving. Christians are supposed to follow the new testament not the old. Christ never preached damnation. The problem with most religions is the people who follow the "Law" without understanding it.

Very, very good point. I don't know why I haven't considered this point before. Thank you very much for bringing it to my attention!

[Tanya]

If you mean Yaweh, nope I can't really say I believe in him. The Gnostic stuff above is fascinating.. I head also heard that the old testement doesn't rely define God's gender...
But then I think all 'gods' are human constructs in their search to comprehend the incoprehensible.... so why on earth would I buy into one so focused on slaughter and eye plucking out???

[Cat]

Cat: Now see, that is a very logical point... I happen to like the concept that you go wherever you think you go. But that seems very fanciful to me sometimes.

Well, my actual belief is that when we die, that's it. I don't credit reincarnation or any sort of afterlife. But if I'm wrong about that (which would be nice), then I don't see how some deity I've never dealt with gets to say what happens to me when my own deities probably have their own opinions on the subject.

[BlackMagicalCat]

I think you will find that it is his followers who make the threats. They cannot be backed up by scripture. God in the new testament is loving and forgiving. Christians are supposed to follow the new testament not the old. Christ never preached damnation. The problem with most religions is the people who follow the "Law" without understanding it.

Actually this is not true.There are a whole lot of scriptures that warn of eternal judgment and hell,to those who reject Christ as Lord.

He that believeth on me hath everlasting life,he that believeth not on me,shall not see life,but the wrath of God abideth on him.Jesus

Jesus said it was better to go into heaven with one eye,than into hell with two,where the worm dieth not,and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus said,,That we were not to fear man,,who can kill the body,,,but after that has nothing else he can do,,but instead we were to fear him,(God),who after he killed the body,had the power to cast into hell.Thats who we were to fear.

The New tastament is full of warnings of judgment and eternal damnation to those who reject Christ,,from Mathew to Revelation,,,its in every book of the New Testament.

You cant read any new tastament book,without coming across some type of warning of judgment,and repentance,and looking to Christ to be saved,,,thats the whole message of the New tastament,,being saved from your sins,and from hell,and Gods wrath.

I dont know where you got the idea that the new testament was all fluffy new age lovey dovey.

Jesus called the religious leaders of his day,,,snakes.

He said,,Oh ye generation of vipers,How can ye escape the damnation of hell!

And remember the story of the sheep and the goats?The goats go away into everlasting punishment,,but the sheep into everlasting life,in the end times,when the angels will separate the sheep from the goats.

And dont forget this one,Whosoever was not found written in the book of life,was cast into the lake of fire.

As I said,,the new testament is full of warnings of judgment,and warns all men to repent,through faith in Christ alone.

[Thunder]

Actually this is not true.There are a whole lot of scriptures that warn of eternal judgment and hell,to those who reject Christ as Lord.

He that believeth on me hath everlasting life,he that believeth not on me,shall not see life,but the wrath of God abideth on him.Jesus

Jesus said it was better to go into heaven with one eye,than into hell with two,where the worm dieth not,and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus said,,That we were not to fear man,,who can kill the body,,,but after that has nothing else he can do,,but instead we were to fear him,(God),who after he killed the body,had the power to cast into hell.Thats who we were to fear.

The New tastament is full of warnings of judgment and eternal damnation to those who reject Christ,,from Mathew to Revelation,,,its in every book of the New Testament.

You cant read any new tastament book,without coming across some type of warning of judgment,and repentance,and looking to Christ to be saved,,,thats the whole message of the New tastament,,being saved from your sins,and from hell,and Gods wrath.

I dont know where you got the idea that the new testament was all fluffy new age lovey dovey. This is a STRAWMAN and we don't do that to Thunder. My UNDERSTANDING of the Bible comes from a strict Catholic upbringing followed by 20 years as an ordained Presbyterian Elder and member of Session.

Jesus called the religious leaders of his day,,,snakes.



Thanks for the comfort :smash:

Like much of what can be found in the Bible, things taken out of context gain or lose meaning. I agree that these things are written. I also know that we find what we look for. Jesus was human, and fell victim to his own emotions on many of these occasions. To those who espouse the literal interpretation, the teaching... Better to go into heaven with one eye,than into hell with two,where the worm dieth not,and the fire is not quenched is dire indeed. To me it is little more than allegorical embellishment.

Jesus was not above a little invective to make a point. No mainstream Christian church teaches the literal interpretation anymore. btw...Jesus spoke Hebrew and never said Believeth in his life.

On balance the NT is a book of hope... not fear.

Please do not draw from this the conclusion that I am a Christian... I out-grew that. I am not sure what I am.

[debnmike]

Like the OP, I grew up with the fear of hell. As I got older though, I started questioning why God would be so pissed off all the time.

I wasn't raised fundie or Pentecostal or anything, but the message was pretty clear: You have 10 laws to keep, ya break one and you are screwed.

For many years I had this image of God in my head with a giant lightening bolt in his hand poised above his head saying "C'mon, I dare ya!". Frightening stuff for an 8 year old.

Then when my son was born, I was told by the Catholic Church in our area that because his father and I weren't married yet that not only would I have to pay waaaay more tuition, but that they would make sure my son understood he was the product of sin. Ummm, no.

That particular situation really got me thinking; why would God punish my son for a "sin" that his father and I were responsible for? Wouldn't he want to punish my dad, too, because he was related to me? What about my sisters? How far down the family tree does the punishment go anyway?

That's when I got the idea that God can't be wasting all his time being uber pissed. It just doesn't make any sense.

I no longer follow the dogma that haunted me for so long, and I make sure my children aren't taught that. I do teach them about God, but not about hell. My path, on the outside, appears to be very confusing but it's pretty straightforward. I believe in the same God, only without all the anger and judgement. I don't feel that priests are any more a conduit to him than my shoe is. That is why I don't feel a contradiction with witchcraft at all. I'm doing the same (more or less) stuff a priest would do, I just leave the priest out.

I don't accept that I have to believe Jesus is the son of God in order to get to heaven. I'm not sure whether I believe in heaven or reincarnation--I'm not too worried about that part, though. I figure at some point within the next 50 years I'll know because I'll be dead.

I also don't buy into "sin" in the conventional sense. That would imply that God has a checklist of your good stuff and bad stuff. I beleive you should try and be a good person because, well.....you should just try to be a good person.

[Cain]

Me and Jehovah have a deal. I don't go around mass producing the arguments of David Hume, Voltaire, Darwin etc and he doesn't send me to a firey pit for all eternity. Thats the basics anyway, and it works out well.

[debnmike]

Me and Jehovah have a deal. I don't go around mass producing the arguments of David Hume, Voltaire, Darwin etc and he doesn't send me to a firey pit for all eternity. Thats the basics anyway, and it works out well.

That's one helluva truce, Cain! :gagged:

[mystic_peacock]

And remember the story of the sheep and the goats?The goats go away into everlasting punishment,,but the sheep into everlasting life,in the end times,when the angels will separate the sheep from the goats.


But couldn't this just be propaganda against Pagans? Christian leaders at the time were doing everything they could in order to convert pagans to the new monotheistic religion, including putting shrines of the Virgin Mary atop Goddess sites and absorbing pagan holidays and turning them into Christian ones. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas, he was born in April. He was an Aries. Saw something about it on the History channel, which has yet to lie to me :)

Sheep are "sacred" because Jesus is referred to as the "shepherd" and his followers "the flock"... sheep follow without question. Thus since they do what they are told, of course the Bible says they're going to heaven! They're the perfect congregation!

The nature-god is often portrayed with horns... and the devil was made to have horns because the gods were condemned and turned into "demons" under Christianity.
What I'm getting at is... maybe that passage was just saying "hey you guys, you better turn into Christians"

Was that your point in quoting that passage or were you just leading us towards passages that refer to damnation? I'm not sure what was meant by the text, maybe I'm just repeating what's already been said. Hm.

I don't mean to offend, so I apologize in advance if someone is upset by what I've typed.
--Serra

[David19]

But couldn't this just be propaganda against Pagans? Christian leaders at the time were doing everything they could in order to convert pagans to the new monotheistic religion, including putting shrines of the Virgin Mary atop Goddess sites and absorbing pagan holidays and turning them into Christian ones. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas, he was born in April. He was an Aries. Saw something about it on the History channel, which has yet to lie to me :)

Sheep are "sacred" because Jesus is referred to as the "shepherd" and his followers "the flock"... sheep follow without question. Thus since they do what they are told, of course the Bible says they're going to heaven! They're the perfect congregation!

The nature-god is often portrayed with horns... and the devil was made to have horns because the gods were condemned and turned into "demons" under Christianity.
What I'm getting at is... maybe that passage was just saying "hey you guys, you better turn into Christians"

I just wanted to say the devil didn't really get his horns from any 'pagan' god, Satan (or Shaitan, if you prefer to Islamic one, which i kind of do ;)) got it from Azazel, a Jewish spirit/demon/god, he was/is a fallen angel, he rebelled against Yahweh and taught the Jews the arts of magic, science, cosmetics, war, etc, much like other spirits and gods such as Promethus(sp?), etc (but they aren't the same being).

Just wanted to add that (BTW, if you're still curious, just google Azazel, you'll get lots of sites on him) :).

[Arion]

I just wanted to say the devil didn't really get his horns from any 'pagan' god, Satan (or Shaitan, if you prefer to Islamic one, which i kind of do ;)) got it from Azazel, a Jewish spirit/demon/god, he was/is a fallen angel, he rebelled against Yahweh and taught the Jews the arts of magic, science, cosmetics, war, etc, much like other spirits and gods such as Promethus(sp?), etc (but they aren't the same being).


Teaching people the arts of cosmetics and science? My god... I've never heard of such evil! :lol:

[Thunder]

Teaching people the arts of cosmetics and science? My god... I've never heard of such evil! :lol:

It was the cosmetics that made them horny.

[Brightshores]

For many years I had this image of God in my head with a giant lightening bolt in his hand poised above his head saying "C'mon, I dare ya!". Frightening stuff for an 8 year old.

I know exactly what you mean... I grew up Lutheran, and I remember tearfully praying every night that my Jewish, Catholic, and agnostic friends wouldn't be cast into the fiery pit of hell for all eternity just because they weren't Protestant.

At some point, it occurred to me that I didn't believe that God would send over 5 billion people, or 80% of the world's population, to hell. (That's what you get, from any perspective - the largest religions in the world are ~1 billion, if you don't class Catholicism and Protestantism together.)

Anyway, to answer the question, - I honor and acknowledge YHWH as a god, one of thousands of gods that I believe exist, but who I have no special connection with at this point. I honor the words of Jesus as a teacher, master, and sage, (similar to the Buddha) but I do not believe that his is the only path, and his path is not mine at this time in my life. I believe it's almost impossible at this point to separate the words of Christ from church dogma. Even the earliest gospels were written decades after his death, and everything has been translated, mistranslated, and shaped to fit whatever political need
was current at the time. The books in the Bible themselves were not chosen to fit the words of Christ, but to fit the words of Paul, who last time I checked, wasn't a god at all. (Don't get me started on how much I disagree with most of Paul's letters, though. :gagged: )


Sheep are "sacred" because Jesus is referred to as the "shepherd" and his followers "the flock"... sheep follow without question. Thus since they do what they are told, of course the Bible says they're going to heaven! They're the perfect congregation!


Have you ever seen sheep being rounded up by sheepdogs for shearing? They're not always obedient... :lol:

[Amelserru_halqu]

hmmm... completley random, 40% of the global population claims to be christian. I've met three. Besides the christian god isn't so bad, you just have to get some coke in him before he's any fun.

Also, I thought the satan image was a representation of the reptilian, mamilian , and human parts of our brain... just saying...

[Rudas Starblaze]

Anyways, my biggest question for all of you is:

If you acknowledge the existence of the Christian God, why do you follow other Gods, knowing that there is a God who wants you to go to Hell? What makes you so sure you're right and he's wrong? If you don't acknowledge the Christian God, why not? Do you acknowledge other Gods from outside of your tradition/pantheon of choice?


well, i dont follow any gods, but i dont say they arent around either. if you recall Exodus 20:3 states, "You shall have no other gods before me." it never said "there are no other gods but me", which pretty much means dont forget to give credit where credit is due and to put God first, the others, second. and where exactly does the bible say God wants people to go to hell? im confused.

[mystic_peacock]

I just wanted to say the devil didn't really get his horns from any 'pagan' god, Satan (or Shaitan, if you prefer to Islamic one, which i kind of do ;)) got it from Azazel, a Jewish spirit/demon/god, he was/is a fallen angel, he rebelled against Yahweh and taught the Jews the arts of magic, science, cosmetics, war, etc, much like other spirits and gods such as Promethus(sp?), etc (but they aren't the same being).

Just wanted to add that (BTW, if you're still curious, just google Azazel, you'll get lots of sites on him) :).


Thank you!! I appreciate your correction, because I can stop making that mistake in these kinds of discussions :)
Thanks!
--Serra

[David19]

hmmm... completley random, 40% of the global population claims to be christian. I've met three. Besides the christian god isn't so bad, you just have to get some coke in him before he's any fun.

Now, i've got this image of Yahweh snorting coke, that i can't get rid of :lol:.

I wonder who he gets his stuff from :T LOL!.

[Avalanche]

hmmm... completley random, 40% of the global population claims to be christian. I've met three. Besides the christian god isn't so bad, you just have to get some coke in him before he's any fun.


That reminds me of this movie. I remember Jesus, Satan, Yasser Araffat and Bush were the main characters and someone (Bush, I think) is doing coke and the Christian god is out the window holding a bag of coke.