What is Pantheism?

[Kaylara]

pan‧the‧ism  /ˈpćnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngθiˌɪzhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəm/ Pronunciation Key (http://www.mysticwicks.com/) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (http://www.mysticwicks.com/)[pan-thee-iz-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngm]
–noun
1.the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations: it involves a denial of God's personality and expresses a tendency to identify God and nature.
2.any religious belief or philosophical doctrine that identifies God with the universe.

Now I know that many people in other paths also have a pantheistic view of the universe (Reclaiming Wicca being one of them.) And there are plenty of ways to interpret it, so I'm opening this up to everyone for a discussion. If you are pantheistic, what is your view on life, the universe, and everything?

[catphrodite]

I don't consider myself Wiccan. I do label myself pantheist because it's the closest word I
could find to fit into a definition of how I feel. :}

I have great reverence for life in all its forms. I am in awe of its abundance and
diversity, and of the intricate workings of nature and the universe. this is why I'm
studying Biology.

I feel that the experience of life is both the lesson and the treasure. life is bittersweet, and
is meant to be that way. I take the good with the bad, and expect nothing less, because
there is room for both growth and loss in everyone's life.

I don't believe in a God, although I have always had a great interest in mythology. I feel
that all life is sacred, and the respect I show to others, no matter what form they are in,
is my way to express my respect for the whole experience.

I do believe that there is far more to life than what meets the eye. much depends on our
awareness and our abilities to perceive. I feel the undercurrents of energies around
us and am able to work with them. I feel the connection between all things, and also the
distance that lies there.

I celebrate the cycles of the seasons, because they are the cycles of my life as well. I
watch each year, and learn each year, and live each year, and am glad for the experience.

:}

[IvyWitch]

Some other great resources for Natural (non-theistic) Pantheism in case anyone wants to read up on it:
http://www.pantheist.net/
http://www.pantheism.net/

I don't believe in a god of any sort per se, so I would consider myself an atheist. However I do believe that the natural world is worthy of rexerence. Not because of any supernatural reasons, but because it is natural - the earth sciences reveal a wonderful complexity to life that to me is more awe inspiring than any creation story.
I celebrate the seasonal holidays, and a few others from modern Pagan tradtion, as well as some of my own. Instead of being part of Pagan circle, I joined the UU church.

[Rhisiart]

I am a pantheist. I do not believe in a God who is sentient and has some plan or control for the Universe and the denizens in it. The UNIVERSE is my God. The Universe is All. The Universe is the Creator and Death. The Universe doesn't care, about life, love or anything...it just is. There is power and knowledge to be tapped into thru the Universe, but this power also lies in me as I am also a part of the Universe. I am part of everything, I am connected to everything. As a Chaote I may use the name God, Goddess, Lords, Zues, Osiris, Athena, etc. to give an aspect or characteristic of the Universe, Nature or Human emotion a name so as to be able to connect with it, but normally I do not as I am fairly past that requirement, though I still do when doing works and ritual with Family or friends of other paths. But as a whole, I do not believe in Gods and Goddesses as beings that have control or influence over fate or destiny with anyone or the world. It my goal to find balance within the Universe, within the world and the people around me.

I know my place in the Universe. In the Big Picture I am insignificant. What I do here on Earth affects not the Universe. I do not possess that kind of power or influence. This I know, I carry no allusions. I do have influence over my surroundings based on what actions I may make and in the long run I may have a significant or an insignificant effect, but as to the Big Picture, I am still insignificant...and that is ok. I have significance to me, family, friends and aquaintances. This is the Little Picture. In this I am significant, what I do affects me and others, but still the Universe is the Higher Power. Any act of Nature, Cosmic or Terrestrial can end my Little Picture and neither I nor the Universe is able to stop it. I cannot appease nor can I control the Universe, I can only try to find balance within and learn to respect it.

[Birdy]

Everything Rhisiart said.

:woot: our own section in Paths!


Catphrodite, you freaked me out, that could have been something I typed, I am going into Biology for the same reasons.


:abanana:

[Rhisiart]

Ah I thought I killed another thread! Thank you Birdy! Yes, perhaps we do need our own section, although youd have to split it up for the different offshoots I believe. I am Panthesit with Taoist tendancies, though not completely taoist, more scientific pantheism and tao humanity/spirituality...ok dont ask heh! :fpartyfav PARTY!!!

[Rhisiart]

Heh , well will you look at that, we DO have our own section in PATHS!! and Im STILL the last one to post here.

Maybe cuz theres not much to most pantheists. The Universe is just there, no gods or goddesses, no pushing and pulling of some other beings grand cosmic sheming and rules to govern our lives...its up to us how we live, were our heaven and hell is.

As a scientific pantheist, Its my opinion that yes there are no gods, only those I place in power in my mind or those I give power to control me...like drugs or women...lol, but dont get me wrong. The Universe is an all powerful force and should be respected and revered for the sheer magnitude, splendor, beauty, power and still untold secrets it holds. Need a higher power? Look no further than up into the night sky. Dont know how the stars got there? No it wasnt the gods, its all explained by science my friends. No supernatural hokey pokey here, just physics and chemistry. And guess what? ALL of us are capable of it too!

And Im not trying to spiritually grow so that I may somehow trancend after I die, Im trying to transend basic humanity as it is and grow as a human being for the survival of the human race. Im simply an intelligent ape, aware of myself and my surroundings and my emotions, scared of the future yet unwisen to the past, trying to overcome certain petty and dangerous emotions, instincts and desires.

and IF I die and its somethings else, Oh what party there will be! BUT why try and live my life for an ideal of heaven or hell thats different among so many and can never be proven by any? Live this life like its the only one you or I will ever have, cuz it just may be. Your own body is your Temple to the Universe our God. I, You & the Universe are all of the same. Live long, learn much and be good to yourself and your fellow man. You and the Universe are all of the same. Life long, learn much and be good to yourself and your fellow man.

Wish Id thought it and felt it before 37 years had past by but hey, I still have a chance to live it another 15 to 30! Let me know what you think! Sound good or could it use some work? Oh and leave a message cuz Im goin out to have fun tonight so have a great evening! Caio baby!

[bshore]

I consider myself a pantheist, however I do believe that the collective energy or spirit which permeates everything has some kind of centralization point or hub. Call it God if you want, but I don't like the humanized images you get when you think about "God" or "Goddess". Maybe it would be better to think of it as a disembodied brain or bright light or something.

Anyway, it's cool to see that there is a whole section for this path.

[Rhisiart]

I consider myself a pantheist, however I do believe that the collective energy or spirit which permeates everything has some kind of centralization point or hub. Call it God if you want, but I don't like the humanized images you get when you think about "God" or "Goddess". Maybe it would be better to think of it as a disembodied brain or bright light or something.

Anyway, it's cool to see that there is a whole section for this path.

I use to have a belief along that line though it tended to be associated with the afterlife, kind of like the end of the movie BrainStorm, when the guy dies with the machine recording his experience and one of the scientists put it on the experience his death and he sees a nebulous glob of energy he 's headed too, along with others who appear to be wispy energy, like abstract angels, all headed into this collection of energy.

NOW I dont really adhere to an afterlife simply because of the lack of proof or collection of same experiences and the fact that most has been recreated in the lab with drugs and elecronics, BUT Id love to believe in it and if/when I ever do, the central hub idea is one I will advocate!

IF there is a soul or spirit, then one would think it should come from some source, and thus when seperated form the living flesh would want to re-connected with it, this being the "life force" of the Universe, every living thing the same bringing its living experience back to the Source. One may try and connect with the Source while alive, enlightenment if you will, though total understanding comes only when you are received back into the Source. Would you keep the seperate identity you had while alive? Are you recycled to live again? This is more a practical afterlife than a million different heavens, but then who wants to be part of an amorphous collective when one was an individual? It doesnt fit with what we humans want as a 'life', as we want an 'after life' to be. And yet this is how the rest of the Universal energy is born and recycled, so why not the possibility of spirit energy acting the same as well?

Just something to think about!

[bshore]

Would you keep the seperate identity you had while alive? Are you recycled to live again? This is more a practical afterlife than a million different heavens, but then who wants to be part of an amorphous collective when one was an individual? It doesnt fit with what we humans want as a 'life', as we want an 'after life' to be. And yet this is how the rest of the Universal energy is born and recycled, so why not the possibility of spirit energy acting the same as well?

Just something to think about!

I believe that our soul is an individual strand of energy, and when we die this strand remains individual but can return to wind itself arround the big ball of God yarn if it wants. It can also decide to be reborn. Basically, I believe that we remain conscious before, during, and after "life". So, to answer your questions:

1. Yes

2. Yes, if you want to.

3. You don't lose your individuality by joining a group, you just add your voice to the group and the is richer because of it.

4. Good point. I have no evidence or real reason to believe that we retain our individuality forever. In fact, there is evidence that our energy (and presumably our soul or spirit or whatever) will simply re-join the rest of the universe's energy. However, if the energy is just some huge amorphous blob that indiscriminatly absorbs and assimilates all energy, then where does the whole idea of individual consciousness come from in the first place? For me, this is where the idea of the "hub" comes in. If there is an organizing principle to the universe (God) then that must be what organized us into individual conscious beings.

I hope I'm making sense. Good food for thought!

[Protagonist]

Just be careful that you don't confuse it with one-sided realism. That approach just leads to fatalism.

[bshore]

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean "one-sided realsim"?

I know I'm not a fatalist, so I doubt I'd go down that path, but just for clarifications sake . . .

[Serendipity]

Some other great resources for Natural (non-theistic) Pantheism in case anyone wants to read up on it:
http://www.pantheist.net/
http://www.pantheism.net/

I don't believe in a god of any sort per se, so I would consider myself an atheist. However I do believe that the natural world is worthy of rexerence. Not because of any supernatural reasons, but because it is natural - the earth sciences reveal a wonderful complexity to life that to me is more awe inspiring than any creation story.
I celebrate the seasonal holidays, and a few others from modern Pagan tradtion, as well as some of my own. Instead of being part of Pagan circle, I joined the UU church.

Thank you for the links.

[Kaylara]

I guess I'm a polytheist pantheist. :) I believe that there are beings out there that we call gods and that they do have different personalities and influences. They are a part of the totality of deity, not the totality itself.

As far as an afterlife, I do ascribe to at least part of the idea of the Summerlands. I think that we do get reincarnated, but I also think that we choose where we are reincarnated based upon our soul's need for experiences.

[Xentor]

NOW I dont really adhere to an afterlife simply because of the lack of proof or collection of same experiences and the fact that most has been recreated in the lab with drugs and elecronics, BUT Id love to believe in it and if/when I ever do, the central hub idea is one I will advocate!

From the dialogues of Checkerism:

Incredulous the student asked: "You believe in creation despite scientific proof?"

Answered the teacher: "No. We believe in creation because of the absence of scientific proof. Nothing in the current scientific body of knowledge disproves or contradicts our believes. On the contrary, most quantum theory strengthens our faith. Thus, we see no reason to stray from our path."

For the same reason, Checkerists believe in reincarnation. And yes, we also believe in a "central hub" idea.

[Rhisiart]

For the same reason, Checkerists believe in reincarnation. And yes, we also believe in a "central hub" idea.

Very Interesting! I read the dialogues and must say I found some interesting parallels with my beliefs. It seems to be a mix of Eastern religions and philosphies, and is more alog the line of Classic pantheism, while I am more a Natural pantheist.

I wish I could find more on Checkerism, but the link in your sig seems to be all that here is right now! I do like the dialogues that basically say one cannot know the Will or Purpose of deity for that is outside human existance and understanding. I went the same way with my beliefs, trying to understand deity and coming to the conclusion that I couldnt until I was part of, thus I couldnt explain the reason FOR deity and thus removed it from my syllabus so to speak. Not that I dont believe in the wonder that is the Universe and All that is in It, it is, I believe, beyond my or anyones ability to comprehend what, if any reason, purpose, or plan deity would have, and thought it best to concentrate on my own humanity and growth instead. Why waste time contemplating what the deities plans and Will is when all I will ever come up with is abstractions and opinions based on limited observation? There are many arguements for this but in the end I just removed active deity from the Universe, since I saw no sign of it anyway!

But I'd like to read more on Checkerism or at least have you tell me more about it! Its still very close and I myself am looking to combine and refine my belief for publication purposes. Its very logical in its observations and teaching and I love the Student/Teacher dialogues!

[Rhisiart]

I guess I'm a polytheist pantheist. :) I believe that there are beings out there that we call gods and that they do have different personalities and influences. They are a part of the totality of deity, not the totality itself.

As far as an afterlife, I do ascribe to at least part of the idea of the Summerlands. I think that we do get reincarnated, but I also think that we choose where we are reincarnated based upon our soul's need for experiences.

Now Im not going to get too much into this right now, but isnt polytheist pantheist an impossibility? Polytheism is the belief in many gods while pantheism is the belief in one all incompassing god or deity. I kinda know where your coming from, the many form the One, still part of All, but still POLYTHEISM is the opposite of pantheism. Its just confusing given the definitions of both, do ya get what I mean? Please explain if you will! As a Natural Pantheist I am somewhat confused! lol

[fafonen]

I believe that God or the "Supreme Being" is in everything and therefore IS everything but at the same time I believe that it not only IS the universe but is a sort of spirit that is distinct from everything. That probably makes absolutely no sense.

I believe in spirits as well, I believe that everything has it's own individual spirit/soul but at the same time is a part of and made up of that supreme force. I believe in revering nature and it's cycles because to me, that is God.

Polytheism has always been hard for me to grasp because I keep finding in my life that everything connects back to a whole, a source, so while their may be individual spirits that are part of that whole and made up of that whole, I don't think there are individual, separate gods.

My view of the soul is simply that it is whatever part of us that keeps us from being mere machines, that part of us not in our biology (or perhaps in our biology, I don't know, the brain is an interesting thing...) that keeps us alive and connects us to everything.

[Xentor]

I believe that God or the "Supreme Being" is in everything and therefore IS everything but at the same time I believe that it not only IS the universe but is a sort of spirit that is distinct from everything. That probably makes absolutely no sense.

Yes it does! That's called Panentheism (notice the extra "en"). It's a kind of pantheism, with deity being more than, or separate from, the universe.

There's a thread about panentheism, one forum up.

[Xentor]

I wish I could find more on Checkerism, but the link in your sig seems to be all that here is right now!
(...)
But I'd like to read more on Checkerism or at least have you tell me more about it! Its still very close and I myself am looking to combine and refine my belief for publication purposes. Its very logical in its observations and teaching and I love the Student/Teacher dialogues!

As far as I know, that site is the only one publishing this material. The dialogues are recent, but needing to be rewritten for a broader audience
there's a couple of underlying essays at least 15 years old. Those used to be published on another part of that same site, but were taken down temporarily.

[fafonen]

Hey thanks, Xentor I had a feeling I might have been getting my -isms mixed up. Heh.

[Birdy]

Just be careful that you don't confuse it with one-sided realism. That approach just leads to fatalism.

Whurrr?

[Rhisiart]

Just be careful that you don't confuse it with one-sided realism. That approach just leads to fatalism.

Well first, isnt most peoples view of reality one sided? I say most though there are some who contimplate the possibilites and leave their beliefs open, though by having a belief in something tends to drag your view on reality one way or another. I might be wrong though...

As for Fatalism, I think its a lazy way to look at things. Your fate/destiny has already been laid out so why bother trying to change it...its one of those beliefs favored by people who believe Time Travel is possible but the events are fixed and cannot be changed because time is a continuous loop and whats happening or will happen has already happened and if you intervened somehow to change the future, THAT already happened so everything you do is fruitless and pointless so just sit back and accept your lot and fate...

See, lazy...I think its the main belief of EMO's! Gothic Fatalism...hmmmm....my new church, The Church of Gothic Fatalism! MINE, I CALLED IT!

[Kaylara]

Now Im not going to get too much into this right now, but isnt polytheist pantheist an impossibility? Polytheism is the belief in many gods while pantheism is the belief in one all incompassing god or deity. I kinda know where your coming from, the many form the One, still part of All, but still POLYTHEISM is the opposite of pantheism. Its just confusing given the definitions of both, do ya get what I mean? Please explain if you will! As a Natural Pantheist I am somewhat confused! lol
Oh, no, I get what you're saying. My belief in the gods are rather tied up in my belief in how energy works, which is tied up in my belief in the nature of the universe. (Confusing enough yet?)

Basically, the divine is imminent, and within everything, just as energy is. I make a distinction between the ultimate divine and what we humans call divine. I think that when there is a need, and people are sending a lot of energy towards an idea, then a being will step in to fulfill that need. Perhaps it's just that it wants to get an easy meal, perhaps it feels it's a great job? Who knows except that god/dess? Anyways, so the more energy humans send it in terms of worship or attention, the more influence it has. And it will also change to assume the attributes we give it, in order to gain more energy and thus more influence. I think that we give these beings the title god because they are/become more powerful than us and have more influence than we do. And I believe in these god/dess/s/es. Again, not as the totality of the divine, they're as much a part of the divine as everything else.

Does that help?

[Rhisiart]

Oh, no, I get what you're saying. My belief in the gods are rather tied up in my belief in how energy works, which is tied up in my belief in the nature of the universe. (Confusing enough yet?)

Basically, the divine is imminent, and within everything, just as energy is. I make a distinction between the ultimate divine and what we humans call divine. I think that when there is a need, and people are sending a lot of energy towards an idea, then a being will step in to fulfill that need. Perhaps it's just that it wants to get an easy meal, perhaps it feels it's a great job? Who knows except that god/dess? Anyways, so the more energy humans send it in terms of worship or attention, the more influence it has. And it will also change to assume the attributes we give it, in order to gain more energy and thus more influence. I think that we give these beings the title god because they are/become more powerful than us and have more influence than we do. And I believe in these god/dess/s/es. Again, not as the totality of the divine, they're as much a part of the divine as everything else.

Does that help?

I believe I understand. Its like the embodiment for a need or concept. If enough people believed in a need for revenge then the energy would coalesce into an entity to take that mantle of directed energy and devotion. Thats kinda saying gods are created or destroyed by the whims of man.

Though I think the idea might be a new variation to pantheism, Im unsure if the addition of higher beings still makes it pantheistic. I would ask where are these beings prior to their slip into godhood? Are they previous dead spirits or maybe leftovers from the formation and seperation of energies when the Universe was formed? Higher dimensions or planes of existence? Im not knocking your beliefs in anyway, just wanting better clarification of its ties with pantheism as a whole. Am I making an sense? Its late and Im unsure if I am! lol Ok I'll try again later but very interesting Kaylara. Ive been reading and doin some research on all beliefs cuz mine is also related to pandeism as well! Seems they did alot of thinking back in the 1800's! makes my brain hurt sometimes...

[Birdy]

I would say that it is a pantheistic type of belief but not strictly pantheism.

Not that I can say for certain, I have never heard of that before.

[Kaylara]

I believe I understand. Its like the embodiment for a need or concept. If enough people believed in a need for revenge then the energy would coalesce into an entity to take that mantle of directed energy and devotion. Thats kinda saying gods are created or destroyed by the whims of man.

Though I think the idea might be a new variation to pantheism, Im unsure if the addition of higher beings still makes it pantheistic. I would ask where are these beings prior to their slip into godhood? Are they previous dead spirits or maybe leftovers from the formation and seperation of energies when the Universe was formed? Higher dimensions or planes of existence? Im not knocking your beliefs in anyway, just wanting better clarification of its ties with pantheism as a whole. Am I making an sense? Its late and Im unsure if I am! lol Ok I'll try again later but very interesting Kaylara. Ive been reading and doin some research on all beliefs cuz mine is also related to pandeism as well! Seems they did alot of thinking back in the 1800's! makes my brain hurt sometimes...

Well, I think there are plenty of entities astral/etheric/etc. I think that certain entities like subsisting on the cast of energy of people and that some entities find a steady stream of energy and decide that they're going to conform to the attributes that are going in that stream of energy. Basically they choose to attach themselves to a persona, then conform to that persona in order to gain more energy from the people. I've noticed that when people start opening up to energy or psychic things, a lot of the time some entity will come over and try to make a meal out of them because the newbie doesn't know how to defend themselves. I don't know where any of these entities came from. I'm assuming that they were there already, or are shards of something else.

[Meabh23]

I suppose I could be pantheist in terms of the approach that sees divinity in and about everything. Most polytheists like myself, tend to also view life from a pantheist angle. The difference is that pantheists do not need to see god or gods as literal personal entities, whereas polytheists by definition recognize various divine beings as self-existing and independent. Pantheism is slippery in that it also shares much with animism and also with non-theistic approaches such as occur in some yogas and schools of Buddhism.

I do see that this world is a living part of the divine and we are also parts of this, so the pantheistic approach holds a lot of merit to me. I just don't go as far as some in seeing a unity. I believe that beings and existence is neither totally separate nor totally united. We can speak of humanity and yet recognize each individual. Likewise, we can say the same about divinity, or even life.

I do feel that some people need pantheism to be more strictly defined, but I disagree while instead viewing it as something that was never meant to be taken strictly.

[KiNoRonin]

I have meet several Panthiests.

I like their Philosophies, but every single one of them that I have meet, they all did not have very good control over their Personal Emotional Energies.

Every single one of the Lost Control of their Tempers over Small Little Issues.

So I do not go anywhere near them.

KNR

[Windsmith]

Now I know that many people in other paths also have a pantheistic view of the universe (Reclaiming Wicca being one of them.) And there are plenty of ways to interpret it, so I'm opening this up to everyone for a discussion. If you are pantheistic, what is your view on life, the universe, and everything?Hi, Kaylara! :wave: Say, I hate to use a post from "way back when" to hijack this lovely and informative thread about pantheism, but I have a question for you.

This is one of several posts where I've seen you refer to Reclaiming as a Wiccan path. Now, identifying as Reclaiming myself, I've met lots and lots and lots of Reclaiming-identified witches, and of them all, only one feels the term "Wicca" applies to what they believe and practice (and no, it ain't me!). So I was just curious as to where your information comes from.

That's all. Don't mind me; just passing through.

[Birdy]

I do see that this world is a living part of the divine and we are also parts of this, so the pantheistic approach holds a lot of merit to me. I just don't go as far as some in seeing a unity. I believe that beings and existence is neither totally separate nor totally united. We can speak of humanity and yet recognize each individual. Likewise, we can say the same about divinity, or even life.

I do feel that some people need pantheism to be more strictly defined, but I disagree while instead viewing it as something that was never meant to be taken strictly.

Actually, I agree, as a natural pantheist I don't follow the "all is one" type of pantheism where all distinctions between things are believed to be illusory. That, I would say, is a type of classical or Brahmin (Hindu) pantheism.

I think this is why pantheists want to define pantheism more strictly into types, because of the substantial differences between forms. For instance, I can't see an Acosmic pantheist who believes that the whole of existence is really a singular conscious spirit (God) getting along religiously amongst members of the World Pantheist Movement, which is strictly naturalistic.

I like that you pointed out the Unity since it is key to pantheism and nobody mentioned it. This is why I have trouble with theistic pantheism. In modern Pantheism, the essential Unity/natural order/Singular underlying source/Nature, takes the place of Gods and Goddesses. There is no spiritual/religious heirarchy. That's not to say that other pagan beliefs like yours aren't pantheistic, there just a pantheistic polytheism/panentheism etc.. uh.. *blank* you have reached the end of Birdy's thought circuit: end rambling 8O

[Kaylara]

Hi, Kaylara! :wave: Say, I hate to use a post from "way back when" to hijack this lovely and informative thread about pantheism, but I have a question for you.

This is one of several posts where I've seen you refer to Reclaiming as a Wiccan path. Now, identifying as Reclaiming myself, I've met lots and lots and lots of Reclaiming-identified witches, and of them all, only one feels the term "Wicca" applies to what they believe and practice (and no, it ain't me!). So I was just curious as to where your information comes from.

That's all. Don't mind me; just passing through.

Several posts? Wow. I can't remember posting about Reclaiming previous to this thread. I guess that's where you an I differ. Most of the Reclaiming people I know identify it as being Wiccan. Although I may be wrong. If I offended you, I'm sorry, but I'm going on my own experience. :)

[Windsmith]

Several posts? Wow. I can't remember posting about Reclaiming previous to this thread. I guess that's where you an I differ. Most of the Reclaiming people I know identify it as being Wiccan. Although I may be wrong. If I offended you, I'm sorry, but I'm going on my own experience. :)Nope! Not offended at all. It's actually something that I know a lot of people in Reclaiming go around and around on. Mostly I was curious if you'd read something, or if you're just friends with Reclaiming folk who've come down on the Wiccan side of the debate.

[Windsmith]

I'm feeling the need to say one other thing here.

When I first found my way to Paganism, I suspected I had discovered (to paraphrase Tom Stoppard and distort his meaning all out of whack) the crack that might flood my brain with light.

Reading these threads on Pantheism and the links people are providing...well. I think I've just found the flood of light.

[Birdy]

:smile:

[Xentor]

I think I've just found the flood of light.

Welcome home!

[Windsmith]

Welcome home!Holy crap. That is exactly what it feels like. Dang. Thank you, Xentor.

Whoa, OK. The tears are a bit much there, psyche. You wanna cut that out now? Thaaaaanks.

[Diotima]

I am a pantheist. I believe that universe is conscious -because we (humans, and possibly other beings too) are conscious and we are part of the universe. Sometimes I like to think that perhaps universe is trying to understand itself via us. I have no idea of what happens when we die- there is only one way to find out, and so far it has been an one way trip. However, I believe it's very important how we live. I believe that studying ethics and trying to lead a moral life are essential to one's happiness in this life. And if there is something after that, having developed a virtuous character here is the best preparation I can think of. If there is any cosmic justice at all, a good person's ultimate fate can't be bad.

Some other beliefs I have: -I believe that all life has intrinsic value and therefore significance.
-In some very obscure way, I believe in destiny, in that our lives have a meaning. But we don't often know what that meaning is, and it can be something entirely different than what we think it is. It may not even be a conscious effort at all.
-I don't believe that anyone dies (except in some cases where the death is violent) before she has fulfilled the purpose of her life.
-I have no idea of whether or not there are Gods, spirits or other higher beings. For me, Universe is as close to God as there can be, and I have no hope of ever really understanding a small fragment of it. I feel it would be silly of me to worship beings that are parts of the Universe, and since I feel also that worshipping myself would be silly, I also refrain from worshipping the Universe. That leaves just silent wonder and awe.

[Eleisawolf]

I am a pantheist. I believe that universe is conscious -because we (humans, and possibly other beings too) are conscious and we are part of the universe. Sometimes I like to think that perhaps universe is trying to understand itself via us.

You took the beliefs right out of my brain! I think the universe is learning about itself--everything that it can do, be, experience...

I have no idea of what happens when we die- there is only one way to find out, and so far it has been an one way trip.

Well, not so much. If you look at it from a scientific POV, nothing in a closed system (the universe, so far as we know) can be lost or gained. So the energy/matter that makes us up never leaves the system. It's recycled into something else. Each of our atoms is continually learning all the things it can do and be. Macrocosm, meet microcosm. At least given what I know now, I think we always come back, but never in the same form twice, to keep learning and adding to the continual evolution of the universe. So, while I agree with you that we can't know for sure until we go there, there are some bits of evidence we might be able to go by in trying to figure it out.

Nevertheless...

However, I believe it's very important how we live.

...you said a mouthful. Prosit!

:cheers:

Peace

[sari0009]

Now I know that many people in other paths also have a pantheistic view of the universe (Reclaiming Wicca being one of them.) And there are plenty of ways to interpret it, so I'm opening this up to everyone for a discussion. If you are pantheistic, what is your view on life, the universe, and everything?

Yes, there are plenty of ways to interpret. Here is what makes sense to me. First, I'll throw in some definitions I gathered. I like to keep them simple as possible.

Atheism – there is no God(s)
Pantheism -- the physical world is divine
Panentheism -- the Gods are everywhere
Polytheism -- there is more than one God
Animism -- everything is alive
Monism -- everything that exists is one being
Monotheism – there is the one and only true God

Divine – universal forces of both internal and external connectivity that allow patterns to exist, come into creation, and even play.

Divine is best perceived from a pluralistic and multidisciplinary approach rather than a proprietary one and yet I noticed that mainstream dictionaries define divine as pertaining, addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or proceeding from God (and their idea of deity is peculiar to monotheisms) while many other pantheist or pagan glossaries vary on the definition of divine or just don’t include (http://www.neopagan.net/Pagan_Glossary.html) this very important word. I suspect that’s because the topic gets thorny very quickly?I like to view the divine as both immanent (internal) and transcendent (external) but have had to spend most of my time managing the immanent and found that most powerful and practical.I see nature as divine and everything that exists is natural, even humanity with our cities and chemicals that we produce.I occasionally love playing armchair physicist and take note when I read the likes of this: "…the quantum world is more highly correlated than any world that depends on a local reality or locally operating hidden variables (http://www.drury.edu/ess/philsci/bell.html)."It makes sense to me that the divine is about plugging into the connectedness of the universe/multiverse. The divine also a very creative and playful thing to me, and not always in ways that we always thing of a sensible, nice, or pleasant. Nature can be brutal as much as it can be pleasant and subtle.

Deity – strong patterns (anthropomorphized or not) that create and amplify connectivity internally, externally, and between.With this definition, what a deity is could be wildly interpretive rather than just a being we worship. Deities to me are real but tweak-able which means, for example, that some people might use a less cluttered archetype (often the earlier Gods, as in the cases of Aphrodite and Kali) while others may pile on particular baggage and connect/attract that which reflects both the archetype and the baggage. I was studying computer programming at the same time I got into pantheism and then polytheism so classes with their methods in C (computer) programming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_%28computer_science%29) definitely affected how I think of diety.While not all Gods should be anthropomorphized, it makes sense to me that certain ones are because they the uniquely human patterns and connections that we live. It makes sense to anthropomorphize Aphrodite since this Goddess has to do with human love. In fact, she changed over time, reflecting civilization’s changes at the time. This is why I like the earlier versions as they are less sexist and not as overly specific.I am mostly a pantheist but am also polytheist (and have doubts about panenthism, and even doubts about my doubts), which makes sense with these definitions. I work with Gods but not as beings that are to be worshipped. They are real -- they are what I choose to connect with, attract, create with, and work with. I'd like to strongly emphasize that for me, anthropomorphized dieties are not necessarily the focus since not all patterns of energy and connection are human or proprietarily human. There is a big Universe out there and I doubt that we’re the only life forms.

So…definitions of divine and deity are not standardized between all groups and individuals on earth and for that I am thankful because the mainstream dictionary ones are narrowly proprietary and I don’t agree with many other’s views and definitions. To some pantheists, it’s impossible to be both pantheist and into the Gods. To others, there is a fit between divine and deity.

[airmist]

Very nice, IMO, sarioooo. What I particularly like are: 1) your definitions of the various theological “isms” are as I’ve always understood them to be; and 2) your definitions of deity and divinity offer a working meaning of the words for purposes of use in discussions of various theological or religious systems of belief. I sometimes think the “isms” are used too often as if they are a religion. Their historical use has arisen as an academic description of a belief system or general type of belief.

Like you, my personal spirituality is largely pantheistic, but has had elements of polytheism I thought, although I wonder today if those elements aren’t actually more animistic. However, the system names are descriptive of my spirituality, they are not my spirituality. Many others who post regularly here have spiritualities which sometimes have significant differences from mine, yet we are all clearly pantheistic to some degree. Hence, I enjoy everyone's company and learn from our differences.

[sari0009]

Very nice, IMO, sarioooo. What I particularly like are: 1) your definitions of the various theological “isms” are as I’ve always understood them to be; and 2) your definitions of deity and divinity offer a working meaning of the words for purposes of use in discussions of various theological or religious systems of belief. I sometimes think the “isms” are used too often as if they are a religion. Their historical use has arisen as an academic description of a belief system or general type of belief.

Like you, my personal spirituality is largely pantheistic, but has had elements of polytheism I thought, although I wonder today if those elements aren’t actually more animistic. However, the system names are descriptive of my spirituality, they are not my spirituality. Many others who post regularly here have spiritualities which sometimes have significant differences from mine, yet we are all clearly pantheistic to some degree. Hence, I enjoy everyone's company and learn from our differences.

By the time I ran into Neopaganism and then studied different theologies from different angles, others had been working on clarifying the definitions of the theological -isms long before and I see these exact same definitions on sites like neopagan.net -- Bonewits has been around in the Pagan scene for a long time and has a knack for boiling things down to their Lowest Common Denominators (LCD). My mentor was good at that too. She could nail things in seconds that others took months or years to get around to realizing, if they did at all.

My definitions for deity and divine however, I struggled to come to and realize that they may or may not be considered LCD versions (but might be as close as one can get).

“LCD” definitions make it possible to talk across spiritual and religious reality tunnels, explore combination paths (which perhaps most are), explore paths more deeply, and enable a higher level of clarity in discussing others' sometimes abusive (not all are abusive) attempts to define the theological -isms for all others (during which they add on variables, assumptions, and other things as required parts of the definition).

[airmist]

My definitions for deity and divine however, I struggled to come to and realize that they may or may not be considered LCD versions (but might be as close as one can get).

I wondered whether those were your own; I hadn't seen them before, not that I'm a theologian. I needed to re-read them a few times and will continue to think about them, but they certainly struck me as allowing discussion across "reality religious tunnels."

[TygerTyger]

I have come to Pantheism not in search of a religion or an organisation similar to a church, but because, as a concept, it so closely matches what I believe to be true.

I do believe that there is an intelligence out there that is beyond human understanding and that it touches the human consciousness occasionally.

I do not believe this to be an anthropomorphic god or goddess, but it may be recognised as the ‘divine’.

The universe is constituted of energy and matter.

The intelligence is energy, existence is matter. They are inextricably interwoven. It is not logical to conceive of the universe without either matter or energy.

Life is energy and energy cannot be destroyed. Where our life energy goes after it is separated from the matter of our bodies that once contained it is a big question! It may become transmuted to some other form of energy? It may become attracted to other forms of energy? It may become the start of another life? These are the mysteries of existence!

That existence may be greater in total than the ability of an individual to experience it fully.

That existence is unequivocally beautiful, even in its’ most terrible forms, and beauty is a product of intelligence.

[Novembers River]

[FONT=Arial]Life is energy and energy cannot be destroyed. Where our life energy goes after it is separated from the matter of our bodies that once contained it is a big question! It may become transmuted to some other form of energy? It may become attracted to other forms of energy? It may become the start of another life? These are the mysteries of existence!


I believe it simply returns to the pool of energy to be used again in another aspect of existence.

In a way, we never die.