Paganism as a hobby?

[Zephyrstorm]

:wave:
I recieved the latest issue of New Witch in the mail yesterday and in the Rants n Raves column, there's a letter from an individual who says something that really got my hackles up. I am curious what ya'll think about the quote in question, and whether you feel that this is an accurate portrayal of the Pagans that you know or even your own path.

Just about every Pagan out there (except for a handful that I know personally) became Pagan to justify some alternative lifestyle and thus ends up treating Paganism more like a hobby than a religion.
p. 5 "Paganism is not a hobby" Rants n Raves New Witch #13 Sept - Nov 2006

In addition to the fact that the author assumes that only her friends don't treat Paganism as a hobby, I just can't agree with them.

In my own walk, I was Pagan before I discovered that I was Poly, a gamer, or a geek. The only thing I knew about myself when I discovered Paganism was that I was bisexual, and I've known that for ages. And my sexuality wasn't what drew me to Paganism, it was my love of Classical Mythology that did it, and the corresponding answers I recieved from the Gods. For me, Here was a Path that allowed me to connect; not with some "alternative" lifestyle, but with the Gods, and my Path has remained about the relationship with the Gods, rather than a justification for my sexuality or my hobbies.

So what's your take on this?
Z :cheers:

[Sage Rainsong]

YAY!!!!! the new issue of new witch is in? My rant is supposed to be in there. I have to head to the store. Anyway I never treated Paganism as a hobby or a justification for any lifestyle. Sadly I think that some people do. In a way that is okay because they may learn something anyway. Personally my lifelong facination with mythology, magic, anthropology and my deep hunger for the mystical is what drew me to Paganism.

[MysticWitch]

Maybe to some, Paganism is a hobby. I disagree with it though. To me its a life style, a choice and it is faith.

[Theres]

for the majority? yes, i agree.

in fact it's weird, but i was just thinking about this today at work.
i've noticed lately that many (most?) of the Pagans i know personally (and this is a VERY large group) treat their path more as a distraction than a spirituality... not much deeper than a video game. their motivation for going to festivals is all about the drumming and drinking around the fire late into the night. it isn't very often that the Gods interfere with their partying.

a pity yes, but also quite true in my experience.

[Carla O'Harris]

for the majority? yes, i agree.

in fact it's weird, but i was just thinking about this today at work.
i've noticed lately that many (most?) of the Pagans i know personally (and this is a VERY large group) treat their path more as a distraction than a spirituality... not much deeper than a video game. their motivation for going to festivals is all about the drumming and drinking around the fire late into the night. it isn't very often that the Gods interfere with their partying.

a pity yes, but also quite true in my experience.


Unfortunately, I think there is a lot of truth in this.

The question is whether this is any more true for Paganism than it is for other religions, where the majority are fairly superficial and wishy-washy, with a core of people who take things seriously.

I suppose it is possible that the pleasure-orientation of some pagan paths might tend to draw a little bit more, but my observations indicate that regardless of the religion, those who are entirely about partying will find a way to do so regardless.

[Carla O'Harris]

Unfortunately, I think there is a lot of truth in this.

The question is whether this is any more true for Paganism than it is for other religions, where the majority are fairly superficial and wishy-washy, with a core of people who take things seriously.

I suppose it is possible that the pleasure-orientation of some pagan paths might tend to draw a little bit more, but my observations indicate that regardless of the religion, those who are entirely about partying will find a way to do so regardless.


But I also want to add to this that the experience of drumming and dancing around a fire can itself be called 1) an experience in community, and 2) a potentially ecstatic experience, and therefore of religious provenance.

[Wolfsong]

The human species as a whole has/is becoming more and more a society of instant gratification. Too many of us see something we like and want it RIGHT NOW!!! with no work involved. The same goes for paganism. How many of you have ran into young people, or any person for that matter, curious about the path and the first question is how do I do magic for ..... (fill in the blank). I say over and over that if you come into paganism the first thing you need to understand is just how harmful our concept of time is. Especially in regards to spirituality. Time has Sh*t to do with learning anything. What's important is the energy we put into something. When the energy we have put out is sufficient enough we will gain the rewards of the work.. This has absolutely nothing to do with time and this is what people need to realise....

Yes... there are many pagans out there who whether they admit it or not treat paganism as a part time thing or "hobby" if that's the word you want to use. But there are just as many, if not more, people of every other faith out there who do exactly the same thing. (go to church on sunday then go home and forget it all til next week and repeat week after week after week....)

The only difference is that within paganism you are taught (hopefully) at the outset that this is a way of life and the more it becomes so the less need there is for extravigant rituals. Paganism, for me, is a spiritual lifestyle... not something I just happen to do on weekends. I honestly, deep in my heart, feel you cannot seperate the lifestyle aspect from the spiritual aspect. The two go hand in hand.

[_Banbha_]

I just got my New Witch today and will read it and probably reply again...

An initial thought is that Paganism can be cultural expression as well as a religious faith; and I don't see a problem with this in theory. The 'hobby' aspect is lost on me...maybe there are some people who just want to things to be more religious and less social, so they're calling other Pagan's "hobbiest's'?

edited to add: I don't have a lot of experiences with large gatherings and maybe haven't really met the people referred to as Hobbiests. It sounds a bit judgemental on first glance.

[Aleannah]

As was stated in an earlier post, I have known Christians, Buddhists, (insert any religion here) that treat their religion as a "hobby". Not all pagans have alternative lifestyles. There are people that are pagan that would surprise you, for they give NO indication whatsoever that they are pagan, but their belief is strong. They simply separate their business life from their personal life, probably to avoid any conflict in the workplace. When people think of pagans, they tend to think of hippies, drugs and patchouli :lol:

There are people drawn to paganism because they see the result of our hard work, a spell that has completed correctly. They want to know how to do this, because face it, it's cool. But then, they learn that they must put work into learning how to perform the spell correctly...it's not just about mumbling the words in the right order, and lighting the right color candle. It's about putting yourself into the spell, and raising energy for that spell (short form explanation). So, those that don't want to do the work, go for the instant gratification stuff, and quite often it doesn't work, and if it does, it's not as strong as it should have been. Those people tend to do one of two things...hang on and continue to cast instant spells (spells-in-a-box type) or they give up and lose interest. IMO, the dabblers might be what this person was talking about.

[PoisonIvy]

I'm not sure that I understand.
How can one's beliefs be considered a "hobby"?
I believe what I believe all of the time,not just part of the time.

I guess that I just don't "get it".

[Callatya]

I guess its more the 'being seen to believe' than actually believing.

I tend to avoid meetings and festivals for this very reason. Most of the people that I have met at such places seem to be so worried about being seen to be doing the 'in thing' that they are utterly mind-numbing to spend any time with.

Maybe my thoughts on things are a bit skewed as I tend to be rather introverted about my beliefs. They are a part of me, but I don't feel the need to display them 24/7. To me there are very few people who can 'live' a religion and at the same time be out there showing it off. The two very rarely seem to gel. I have always felt that if someone needs to do an awful lot of displaying then maybe they are missing something elsewhere. That is not to say that people should hide away and not be proud of who they are, far from it, just that there seems to be an abundance of people displaying something that just really isn't them. Its kinda sad really, when you think about it.

Is this a similar sort of thing as the Sunday Christian mentality do you think?

[Wolfsong]

Is this a similar sort of thing as the Sunday Christian mentality do you think?

Yup.. that's why I said earlier that I think the right word would be "part time" instead of "hobby".

[Carla O'Harris]

I just got my New Witch today and will read it and probably reply again...

An initial thought is that Paganism can be cultural expression as well as a religious faith; and I don't see a problem with this in theory. The 'hobby' aspect is lost on me...maybe there are some people who just want to things to be more religious and less social, so they're calling other Pagan's "hobbiest's'?

edited to add: I don't have a lot of experiences with large gatherings and maybe haven't really met the people referred to as Hobbiests. It sounds a bit judgemental on first glance.


What's wrong with being judgemental?

[Semjaza]

for the majority? yes, i agree.

in fact it's weird, but i was just thinking about this today at work.
i've noticed lately that many (most?) of the Pagans i know personally (and this is a VERY large group) treat their path more as a distraction than a spirituality... not much deeper than a video game. their motivation for going to festivals is all about the drumming and drinking around the fire late into the night. it isn't very often that the Gods interfere with their partying.

a pity yes, but also quite true in my experience.

I agree entirely. Of the pagans I know, the ones who are pagan 24/7 are rare. Most are only pagan when surrounded by others, and use their 'pagan-ness' to justify their lifestyles to others (and themselves). I liked the chapter in Grey Cat's book Deepening Witchcraft called, "Who Am I When I'm By Myself?" or something like that...

IMHO, being a pagan is not a life-style but a worldview. You can change your life-style like you change your socks (or not, for that matter), but worldviews are harder to change... (A further, slightly off-topic argument would be that many pagans still retain a Christian worldview, and it's hard work to have a pagan worldview in the scientific and Christian west, but I'm digressing)... And not making much sense... I'll stop before I get too off-topic...

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

[Zephyrstorm]

I would quote ya'll, and comment seperately, but I think this post would turn into a small book if I did. :nodnod:

I think that it's hard to tell from the outside what precisely is going on inside another person. Do we actually know whether that person over there is spending their day living their walk or not - especially if we only see them once or twice a year at a metaphysical fair or festival?

I've met a small number of the type of "part-time" pagans that some have referred to, and I agree that they exist, but to be frank, I think they are inevitable. Yes, it's not the ideal, but not everyone needs the same kind of religious or spiritual experience.

I think becoming too caught up in one's religious beliefs can be just as unhealthy as being too detached. It's a matter of balance between being grounded in the world and being able to connect with the Divine (however you define that.) Obsession is just as bad as this topic.

Anyway, to veer back towards the topic, in my experience, most of the Pagans that I know have their path so infused into their everyday perspectives and thoughts that without really getting to know them, you'd not know how intently they live their path.

And personally, I worry more about the showboating "High Queen of the Witches" muckitymuck type than I do about the Sabbat-Day Pagans.

I just find it offensive that the author of the letter feels that she can judge the spiritual intent of other people without knowing them as well as she does her associates. Further, it's not our job to police the beliefs of others (unless they are a member of your specific tradition or path), it's our job to grow and to serve the Gods in our ways. *shrug* And each of those "hobbyists" is where they are on their path, we can't judge it in terms of validity - it's perfectly possible that they are living their path just as intently as you or I.

*shrug* Sorry for the book.
Z _inabox_

[Athena-Nadine]

As was stated in an earlier post, I have known Christians, Buddhists, (insert any religion here) that treat their religion as a "hobby". Not all pagans have alternative lifestyles. There are people that are pagan that would surprise you, for they give NO indication whatsoever that they are pagan, but their belief is strong. They simply separate their business life from their personal life, probably to avoid any conflict in the workplace. When people think of pagans, they tend to think of hippies, drugs and patchouli :lol:

There are people drawn to paganism because they see the result of our hard work, a spell that has completed correctly. They want to know how to do this, because face it, it's cool. But then, they learn that they must put work into learning how to perform the spell correctly...it's not just about mumbling the words in the right order, and lighting the right color candle. It's about putting yourself into the spell, and raising energy for that spell (short form explanation). So, those that don't want to do the work, go for the instant gratification stuff, and quite often it doesn't work, and if it does, it's not as strong as it should have been. Those people tend to do one of two things...hang on and continue to cast instant spells (spells-in-a-box type) or they give up and lose interest. IMO, the dabblers might be what this person was talking about.

This is so true. I am me. I was born in NYC, raised in NYC, am a product of the City. Now I live in CO and am pretty much the picture of Suburbia that so many here love to denegrate. *...shrugs...* I am not a tree hugger. I love nature, but do not put it above anything, and accept and enjoy the fact that the cities are just as much a part of my environment as the mountains. I get my hair higlighted, my nails done, I shop in designer stores. I drive an SUV and my husband drives a pick up. None of it is an act. I am who I am. I am extremely religious, and my life is lived serving my gods and my personal community. I hide nothing, yet I see no reason to flaunt anything either. I am the farthest thing from the "typical" Pagan stereotype. :lol: My worship and service to my gods has molded my view of the world, but so has living in it. I am a product of my religion and my society, and I am quite happy that way. :)

Being a Hellenic Recon is just one more aspect of who I am--one of the more important ones, but not the only one.

[Semjaza]

I think that it's hard to tell from the outside what precisely is going on inside another person. Do we actually know whether that person over there is spending their day living their walk or not - especially if we only see them once or twice a year at a metaphysical fair or festival?


I agree with what you're saying here. Using myself as an example, I keep my paganism to myself. Very few people know that I'm pagan, and fewer still know my beliefs.

To add qualification to my 'complaining' post, I'm not talking about those I don't know (why would I?) but those I do know who openly profess paganism but when questioned about it give a blank stare, not (as I would do) to show that it's none of the questioner's business, but the blank stare of a person whose bluff has been called... And normally I wouldn't care in the slightest, except that there's a thread about it, and I was bored... :)

Cheers,

Semjaza (who only has an opinion while on the Internet, and is mostly apathetic other than that)
FFFF

[Windsmith]

I guess I've been extremely fortunate in that I've been surrounded by Pagans who walk their paths because of a deep committment to the Earth, their deities, and magic. The closest I've ever come to "hobbyists" was once, when I was just starting to explore Paganism, I found a flyer in a local store for a circle that was starting some intro-level Wicca classes in the fall. When I called the contact to ask about it, he said, "Yeah, we decided we're not really all that interested in teaching. But we're still gonna get together every month and play some D&D. Wanna come?" My response was a rapid :imout:

Your original point is well taken, though, Zephyrstorm. First off, I love that the author of the rant claims that everyone but them and their friends is this way. And I agree that it's damned dangerous to make sweeping generalizations like that about thousands of people they don't know, who maybe just didn't come to the path in the same way they did, or who don't happen to practice the same way they do. I am a Pagan 100% of the time. Just because I don't happen to spend 100% of my time working spells and going on trance journeys doesn't mean I consider it a hobby.

[Zephyrstorm]

I agree with what you're saying here. Using myself as an example, I keep my paganism to myself. Very few people know that I'm pagan, and fewer still know my beliefs.

To add qualification to my 'complaining' post, I'm not talking about those I don't know (why would I?) but those I do know who openly profess paganism but when questioned about it give a blank stare, not (as I would do) to show that it's none of the questioner's business, but the blank stare of a person whose bluff has been called... And normally I wouldn't care in the slightest, except that there's a thread about it, and I was bored... :)

Cheers,

Semjaza


The ignorant who claim to be more than they are fall into a whole 'nother category in my book - like all people who are faking it for their own reasons, they're Posers. heh. I've met the type before. I've had to clean up the messes they tend to leave behind them.

I don't broadcast my beliefs, but I don't shy from answering questions about them. I doubt most of the professors I had in college ever realized that I was the president of the Pagan Student group on campus. LOL



The closest I've ever come to "hobbyists" was once, when I was just starting to explore Paganism, I found a flyer in a local store for a circle that was starting some intro-level Wicca classes in the fall. When I called the contact to ask about it, he said, "Yeah, we decided we're not really all that interested in teaching. But we're still gonna get together every month and play some D&D. Wanna come?" My response was a rapid :imout:

LOL - more than likely - they started to sit down and plan the class and realized they weren't up for it.
I keep my D&D and my beliefs separate, and don't assume that my Pagan friends are gamers, thankfully. I've noticed though that the opposite has happened in my homebrewed (i.e. created by me) world - my religious beliefs have seeped into the creation. Oh well.



Your original point is well taken, though, Zephyrstorm. First off, I love that the author of the rant claims that everyone but them and their friends is this way. And I agree that it's damned dangerous to make sweeping generalizations like that about thousands of people they don't know, who maybe just didn't come to the path in the same way they did, or who don't happen to practice the same way they do. I am a Pagan 100% of the time. Just because I don't happen to spend 100% of my time working spells and going on trance journeys doesn't mean I consider it a hobby.

Exactly.
And personally, I believe a lot of seemingly mundane things can be moments of magic. ;) My landlady would have a cow if she knew I cast spells in the laundry room on my clothing. heh. but then, that's what I get for being a Kitchen witch. 8O
I doubt anyone ever realizes what I'm doing.

Spiritual growth and change usually happens on the inside first, and, unless someone's hiding the secret methods, my telepathetic powers :ballonsmi just don't seem to let me know when the change happens in other people. Not that I actually want to know.
Spiritual growth can be a messy thing.

Z

[Meadhbh]

While I don't like sweeping generalizations a lot of pagans are like that. Either their in it because they think it makes them seem cool or like their rebeling from society or they want power. It seems to me that the pagans who take it the most seriusly are the ones that looking at the them you'd never be able to tell that they were pagan. Sadly its the silver ravenwolf fluffy bunnies that make it look like the rest of us are out there flaping. Not not all of the pagans mind you, but the loudest always seems to represent the whole in any belief system not just paganism and for some reason they aree always the ones that the rest of the members look at as a little strange.

[Arion]

:fofftopic Where can I find this magazine?

[Zephyrstorm]

http://www.newwitch.com

It's from the same company that publishes Sagewoman and PanGaia and Blessed Bee.

Z

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Yeah, I've seen my share of people who look pretty damn flakey. Of course, for all I know, their spirituality could be deep and all-encompassing, and they also just happen to be idiots. Hey, there's a chance, right?
Now, I consider myself pagan as they come. I go to 'church' every Saturday, am taking the necessary steps to eventually become an Oddyssean Priest, mostly because I want to serve both the Gods and my community, and that our community desperately needs male clergy. And my appearance doesn't scream OH MY GODDESS LOOK AT ME I AM SO WICCAN IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY!!! I wear a pentacle necklace that's plain and simple, and too many rings, but none of those have esoteric witchy symbols on them. I don't dress entirely in black, I don't reek of patchouli (although I would like to reek of sandalwood ^^) and I look like a pretty normal 23 year old Canadian male.
We've been having a discussion lately on how best to promote paganism, if such a thing were necessary, and I said that I believe the best way to make Wicca look good is to wear a pentacle and look and act normal.

[Carla O'Harris]

"Look and act normal"??? Can we define this?

Rather, I'd think it would be to make others more comfortable with the wyrd, through being wyrd with integrity.

[David19]

YAY!!!!! the new issue of new witch is in? My rant is supposed to be in there. I have to head to the store. Anyway I never treated Paganism as a hobby or a justification for any lifestyle. Sadly I think that some people do. In a way that is okay because they may learn something anyway. Personally my lifelong facination with mythology, magic, anthropology and my deep hunger for the mystical is what drew me to Paganism.

I agree with you, i think there are a few pagans who are only 'pagan' for festivals or gatherings, but pretty much don't care about the gods, or their religion, etc.

To me, i got into 'paganism', 'cause, like you, i've always been fascinated with 'mythology', magic, and supernatural and mystical things.

I didn't become a Pagan 'cause i was gay or for any other lifestyle (partly 'cause i'm still discovering who i am), my uncle's gay and a Catholic (he's a devout Catholic actually, and goes to Church more than my dad, BTW, just for others, devout does not equal fundamentalist), if i was Christian (or Jewish) and gay, i'd see no conflict, i'd just be gay and also Christian or Jewish or Muslim, etc, and most of the Christian, Muslims and Jewish gay people i know, don't see a conflict either, to me, you should enter a religion 'cause you want to worship that god (or gods), or like the religion and want to devote yourself to it, it shouldn't be based on whether you're LGBT, straight, polygamourous(sp?), etc.

[David19]

I agree entirely. Of the pagans I know, the ones who are pagan 24/7 are rare. Most are only pagan when surrounded by others, and use their 'pagan-ness' to justify their lifestyles to others (and themselves). I liked the chapter in Grey Cat's book Deepening Witchcraft called, "Who Am I When I'm By Myself?" or something like that...

IMHO, being a pagan is not a life-style but a worldview. You can change your life-style like you change your socks (or not, for that matter), but worldviews are harder to change... (A further, slightly off-topic argument would be that many pagans still retain a Christian worldview, and it's hard work to have a pagan worldview in the scientific and Christian west, but I'm digressing)... And not making much sense... I'll stop before I get too off-topic...

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

I agree with you, about 'pagan' religions being a worldview (any religion, actually), but i thought i should say, different 'pagan' religions will have different worldviews, there's no '1 'pagan' worldview', e.g. a Kemetic will have a different view of the world than a Heathen, a Sumerian will be different to a Canaanite recon, an Aztec recon will be very different to a Wiccan, etc.

[_Banbha_]

What's wrong with being judgemental?

Based on what evidence though? I'm personally not comfortable making judgments on what a person is wearing or and what lifestyle choices they make, as to how devout or serious they are spiritually as Pagans. Whether one's appearance or lifestyle is suburban middle-class, bohemian hippy or chain-wearing leather fetishist, is no consequence. It's surface.

The author of the article referenced was responding to a rant where it was said: "The only 'real Witch' or 'Real Pagan' is one who is involved in some sort of alternative lifestyle like Goth and/or S & M."

The author also says she has never felt the need to use her Pagan Spirituality to justify such lifestyle choices as:



A) Living my life as if life as it the world is one big Lord of the Rings Scene.

B) The way I dress

C) A gaming habit

D) A reason to escape from the 21st Century

E) Shocking my "straight" family, schoolmates and co-workers
or even

F) Adopting some kind of an odd name.

All but a handful of Pagans she knows is like this. I'm not bothered that they (alternative lifestyle Pagans) might be the reason the "media and non-Pagans don't take us seriously." She thinks these 'types' are selfish and not thinking of future generations.

I don't care if Paganism is taken seriously by others. Unlike her I am not looking for a 'acceptance' by mainstream soceity to justify my belief's. And you'd probably not think I'm Pagan to look at me. Unless you look closely. It must surround me like a nimbus, I'm sure, lol.

I think maybe she needs to remove the stick from her butt, to be frank. She was responding to one guy who has exteme and shallow definition of Paganism as an alternative lifestyle with her own rather exteme and shallow defintion. I think maybe they are both prejudiced in a way. She's also ranting on what I see to be a Newbie syndrom in large part. She is also afraid of what she see's as "sub-culture of people who can't draw the line between fantasy and reality." These people are hiding behind Paganism and not focused on a relationship with the Gods, which is what religion is. Well, newsflash: not every Pagan is religious.

I agree with her in that religion is supposed to have some structure (though I'm not one to accept an 'outside' authority) with codes of conduct, etc. I am a 24/7 out Pagan who is allergic to Pachouli. I don't conform to any one stero-type and I don't need justification from the mainstream culture or the alternative subcluture. I agree what Semjaza said about Paganism being a worldveiw:


being a pagan is not a life-style but a worldview. You can change your life-style like you change your socks (or not, for that matter), but worldviews are harder to change... (A further, slightly off-topic argument would be that many pagans still retain a Christian worldview, and it's hard work to have a pagan worldview in the scientific and Christian west, but I'm digressing Yes, I have noticed in discussions here some Pagans holding what I see as Christian worldviews too. 8O Another interesting topic. But I think the author here is looking for acceptance from those who hold the mainstream Christian worldview. I just don't understand the relevence of this goal, being a devout Pagan myself.

[Arion]

http://www.newwitch.com

It's from the same company that publishes Sagewoman and PanGaia and Blessed Bee.

Z

Merci :D

Back on topic, I can't say I've noticed many people who see Paganism more as a hobby than religion. There are definitely people who get excited about becoming a Witch and don't necessarily care about the religious aspects of Witchcraft. Luckily those people don't seem to last within the system too long before they lose interest and go back to being interested in fictional witches.

Personally, I like to read up on Gods, world religions, psychic abilities, the occult, magic and stuff like that. I certainly don't think of my religious or magical practices as a hobby. There are aspects of Paganism and the occult I'm interested in but won't necessarily use, so I guess reading and learning about them is a hobby, but my spiritual path is not.

[Carla O'Harris]

And just what is a "Christian worldview"? I hear this being thrown around a lot. What is being meant by this.

If I hear anything which allows the Christians to have a total monopoly on peace and love, expect me to come out with daggers drawn.

[Carla O'Harris]

Based on what evidence though? I'm personally not comfortable making judgments on what a person is wearing or and what lifestyle choices they make, as to how devout or serious they are spiritually as Pagans. Whether one's appearance or lifestyle is suburban middle-class, bohemian hippy or chain-wearing leather fetishist, is no consequence. It's surface.

Agreed. I'm not interested in making judgements on such superficialities either. My only point was questioning what is wrong with making judgements at all, which seems to be taboo. I'm not interested in reinforcing prejudices ; but the idea that everything is equal and that one cannot prioritize and evaluate in accordance with some values in life is offensive to me. But one's lifestyle choice is certainly a matter of freedom and therefore very important.


The author of the article referenced was responding to a rant where it was said: "The only 'real Witch' or 'Real Pagan' is one who is involved in some sort of alternative lifestyle like Goth and/or S & M."

Well, this is a little extreme. But there is an argument to be made that witches should be people skillful at negotiating the margins, and able to appreciate the uniqueness of the margins. (That doesn't mean they have to buy every marginal phenomena lock, stock, and barrel either.)



I'm not bothered that they (alternative lifestyle Pagans) might be the reason the "media and non-Pagans don't take us seriously." She thinks these 'types' are selfish and not thinking of future generations. I don't care if Paganism is taken seriously by others. Unlike her I am not looking for a 'acceptance' by mainstream soceity to justify my belief's.


I'm with you. One's level of being serious has nothing to do with how accepted one is by the mainstream. Difference is marvelous, and a part of being free. On the other hand, both "marginal" and "mainstream" are problematic, and have their own problematic pathologies based on how they situate each other. It is important to affirm difference and freedom while at the same time holding to high standards of integrity . That integrity can be quite diverse, but it is different than a lack of integrity. Someone who wants to have multiple sexual partners, for example, can do it in such a way that they are not lying, cheating, or ****ing people over. Those trying to live an alternative lifestyle ought to try to find ways to do so that don't **** others over (and admittedly, it can be a struggle for people who are different finding their own life-path, and allowances within limits must be given). On the other hand, sometimes "mainstream" people have a modicum of integrity, but often in a highly unexamined way, and therefore have lost some of their wild integrity through too much conformity and lack of ability to question. So there is learning to go around on all sides.



She is also afraid of what she see's as "sub-culture of people who can't draw the line between fantasy and reality."

Ok, I'm not concerned about people who are imaginative, even highly imaginative. I am not afraid of people who are theatrical, or even like to explore the interpenetrations of theatre in everyday life. This can even include those who like to play long and involved live-action style role-playing games, or really, any consensual game of anyone's choosing.

But a concern over being able to differentiate fantasy and reality is important because often people who have difficulty doing this may project and therefore inflict their own issues onto others. That would be my concern, not the fact that there are people who like to wear costumes, express their difference, or otherwise are doing things that embarass those begging the mainstream to "please accept me and ignore all these weirdos! see! I'm not one!". This is an immature approach. Again, one's approach should be to foster integrity amongst the weird, and make those caught in norms more comfortable with the weird.

[ladyraven]

I probably could guess that most would think myself to be one of these pagan hobbists. I can understand why with the fact that I only wear black and happen to be heavily interactive with the goth scene, I don't go to festivals and don't both with any of the other pagan groups or activities in my community why people might think this. But here's how that those things don't prove a thing.
Now the reason I don't interact with my pagan community is the fact that everyone bickers and fights with one another and isn't a very friendly community in some aspects. My mother is a little bit gothic and it rubbed off on me. I like being able to around people who let me express myself in whatever way I want, weather it be music, clothing or belief, and I was believing in paganism long before declaring myself a part of the goth scene.
They never stop to ask me, my whys or if I do truely believe, they just assume. If they knew they might view me better, but until then, most of the pagan community in my part of the world will probably always think I'm some teenager rebeling against mommy and daddy and thinking that I practice withcraft because I've seen the Craft one too many times.

[Carla O'Harris]

Hey, there is nothing wrong with being Gothic (per se, as long as one is a person with integrity).

And your point about the strife, gossip, backstabbing, etc., in paganism is all too true. However, I wonder whether it is simply rife in religious groups in general. Or maybe we're caught in the paradox whereby religion is the cure for certain pathological social symptoms characteristic of certain sociological levels/choices, but unfortunately the very people practicing it are the people caught in those pathologies!!

[Wolfsong]

I just glanced over most of the posts and I see a lot written about pagan lifestyles. I have a hard time grasping this as I have met pagans who follow lifestyles from one extreme to the other. The same can be said about Christians.

Personally I try and live my spiritual lifestyle 24/7. I still believe however that unless I tell people I am pagan they have no idea. I can live my lifestyle without centering myself out as a pagan just as most christians can. I don't do this with conscious effort and I in no way try to hide my spirituality. I'm as open as anyone and willing to talk to anyone about my path no matter who they may be but I never "flaunt" it. My spirituality is within me. I just don't see how living a pagan lifestyle would define you as a pagan to everyone unless you yourself want to make that statement in the way you present yourself. And if this is your choice then you must be willing to deal with any potential consequences (if there are any) no matter who you are pagan or not.

[Athena-Nadine]

I just glanced over most of the posts and I see a lot written about pagan lifestyles. I have a hard time grasping this as I have met pagans who follow lifestyles from one extreme to the other. The same can be said about Christians.

Personally I try and live my spiritual lifestyle 24/7. I still believe however that unless I tell people I am pagan they have no idea. I can live my lifestyle without centering myself out as a pagan just as most christians can. I don't do this with conscious effort and I in no way try to hide my spirituality. I'm as open as anyone and willing to talk to anyone about my path no matter who they may be but I never "flaunt" it. My spirituality is within me. I just don't see how living a pagan lifestyle would define you as a pagan to everyone unless you yourself want to make that statement in the way you present yourself. And if this is your choice then you must be willing to deal with any potential consequences (if there are any) no matter who you are pagan or not.

*...nods...* I'm still not sure exactly what a "Pagan Lifestyle" is.

[Semjaza]

And just what is a "Christian worldview"? I hear this being thrown around a lot. What is being meant by this.

If I hear anything which allows the Christians to have a total monopoly on peace and love, expect me to come out with daggers drawn.

I started to write out my thoughts on Christian worldview, but then felt weird about it, not being Christian myself and not being raised Christian but rather Baha'i with some Christianity thrown in 'cause of the culture of where I live.

Anyway, here's the essay that inspired my 'pagan worldview' thoughts. I especially like how it qualifies by what 'is,' rather than most pagan arguments which qualify by what 'is not'... If that makes any sense. I'll continue with the Christian 'worldview' idea once I get my thoughts in a more coherent place (could be a while) so for now, let me state that I agree with most, (not all) of what this person has written, and that it may or may not apply to all paganisms, and any other disclaimer I might need... The essay is at:

http://www.robinartisson.com/northpath/reclaim1.htm

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

[_Banbha_]

*...nods...* I'm still not sure exactly what a "Pagan Lifestyle" is.Heh, I'm with you both on that.


And just what is a "Christian worldview"? I hear this being thrown around a lot. What is being meant by this.

Whenever I hear anything which allows the Christians to have a total monopoly on peace and love, expect me to come out with daggers drawn.I know. 8O

That's not what I was referring too. I was thinking about the dualistic philosophy that dominates the Christian (and much New Age) worldview and some contemporary includes Pagans as well. I'm a Reconstructionist so maybe that's the difference; but, I don't think you have to be exclusively Recon to appreciate it or make the distinction.



Anyway, here's the essay that inspired my 'pagan worldview' thoughts. I especially like how it qualifies by what 'is,' rather than most pagan arguments which qualify by what 'is not'... If that makes any sense. I'll continue with the Christian 'worldview' idea once I get my thoughts in a more coherent place (could be a while) so for now, let me state that I agree with most, (not all) of what this person has written, and that it may or may not apply to all paganisms, and any other disclaimer I might need... The essay is at:

http://www.robinartisson.com/northpath/reclaim1.htm

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

Interesting link! I'm bookmarking it so I can read the essay when I have more time.

[Callatya]

Out of curiousity, if someone has no interest in the divine but fancies themselves a witch, do they necessarily have to treat that as a religion?

I was always under the impression that religion in the traditional sense of the word had to have deities involved. Witchcraft seems to be rather flexible in this area, and often gets lumped in with 'pagan' regardless, so perhaps it is OK for witchcraft to be a hobby (though i'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around it) as in many cases it is a tool of religions and not really a religion in and of itself.

Although it does require a high level of belief, so i'm not entirely sure.

I guess if you followed that through, praying and wishing could be hobbies too... that seems unlikely.

[morningstar2651]

Hehehe, my mother still thinks my religion is a hobby.

[Zephyrstorm]

Out of curiousity, if someone has no interest in the divine but fancies themselves a witch, do they necessarily have to treat that as a religion?

I was always under the impression that religion in the traditional sense of the word had to have deities involved. Witchcraft seems to be rather flexible in this area, and often gets lumped in with 'pagan' regardless, so perhaps it is OK for witchcraft to be a hobby (though i'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around it) as in many cases it is a tool of religions and not really a religion in and of itself.

Although it does require a high level of belief, so i'm not entirely sure.

I guess if you followed that through, praying and wishing could be hobbies too... that seems unlikely.


Well, that's part of the rub - some forms of Buddhism don't have deities (Buddha is not a God - he's an example of what anyone can do if they follow his example.) Some refer to Buddhism as a philosophy and others see it as religious.

And there are Pagans who don't have Gods, but concentrate on other aspects that are generally accepted in the community - such as magic. But not everyone can agree with that. I still see a lot of intermingling of terms like Pagan, Witch, Wiccan and half a dozen other terms.

I think part of the problem is that a person gets it in their idea that Wicca and Paganism are so interlinked as to be almost interchangeable, and then they assume that everyone's working from the same worldview or the same standards of living - when, the reality is, we simply and truly aren't.

I'm sure each and every person who has responded in this thread has some aspect of their worldview that wouldn't completely mesh with the worldview of the others. And that diversity should be cherished, imo, not denigrated. But it's easier, sometimes, to slight someone for a difference of opinion or belief than it is to admit that they might be right, or that they have the right to believe as they wish.

I think, honestly, that the idea of a Pagan lifestyle or worldview just isn't possible on so broad a range - For a Santerian priest, a part of his worldview includes the careful raising of certain animals for sacrifice during ceremonies - an act which - and he might very well consider himself a Pagan, for others in the Pagan community - the very idea of animal sacrifice is repugnant.
*shrugs* Is the Santerian Priestess less of a Pagan because of her understanding of sacrifice or are those who dislike animal sacrifice less Pagan because they don't do something that has a long history in the ancient pagan societies?

[Wolfsong]

Out of curiousity, if someone has no interest in the divine but fancies themselves a witch, do they necessarily have to treat that as a religion?

I was always under the impression that religion in the traditional sense of the word had to have deities involved. Witchcraft seems to be rather flexible in this area, and often gets lumped in with 'pagan' regardless, so perhaps it is OK for witchcraft to be a hobby (though i'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around it) as in many cases it is a tool of religions and not really a religion in and of itself.

Although it does require a high level of belief, so i'm not entirely sure.

I guess if you followed that through, praying and wishing could be hobbies too... that seems unlikely.


One thing that has been said over and over is "Not every witch does magic and not everyone doing magic is a witch." Just like not every witch does divination and not everyone who does divination is a witch.

Here are some thoughts on it.. you may well disagree.

Wicca was founded as a spiritual system. One which recognizes pagan gods. As time went on offshoots were created leading to all the different cultural paths out there these days. Although most still find themselves under the Wiccan "umbrella", so to speak, some have diverged enough where they no longer consider themselves as part of the Wiccan path but still fall well within the grounds of Paganism. In the end they all still have one thing in common... the worship of Pagan gods.

There is another school of thought out there which mentions that not all Pagans consider themselves as followers of a Pagan god but they still follow through with other pagan beliefs.

Next there are those who feel that those who do magic all fall under the term "magician". They believe you dont have to be wiccan or even pagan for that matter. Others even believe that those practicing some forms of high magic shouldn't be classified as pagans seeing they call on Christian dieties to help in thier work.

It gets more and more diluted as one goes deeper into the subject. The above are just general thoughts I have heard expressed. Some will agree some won't.

*note* When I refer to "Wicca" above I'm talking about the Wicca which came into existence in the 1950s and what has developed since then.

[KylalaKitty]

Paganism as an "alternative" lifestyle? There is nothing alternative in the way I live. I've been a pagan for a long time and was naturally drawn to it so I dont see it was an alternative lifestyle but just a lifestyle, my choosen lifestyle. Just because its different doesnt mean anything. :hahugh: But yes, some do see paganism in that light unfortuanetly. Its like "my life sucks, lets try something else. Oh look, paganism, this looks neat. It looks magical so this will help me put meaing in life again".

[goDez]

In my opinion, you can't argue with how anyone treats their beliefs.

As long as somebody undergoes personal growth while they participate in some festival/religious activity (which may involve other people or not), it's a good thing.

Personal growth can happen in very subtle ways, and I think that transformation during a prayer, ritual etc. should not be underestimated or misunderstood. The transformation takes place, wether or not the person experiencing the magic is actually serious about it (if and only if they still have the ability (/ Will) to work that magic.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

By normal I mean just that, vanilla, regular, plain, whatever you want to call it. I'm not a Goth, punk, emo kid, preppy, jock, nerd, geek, metrosexual, stoner, hippie, insert other clique here. I am not visibly strange, to get down to meat and potatoes. I do not conform to any sterotype that I can think of.
Part of this is doubtless because when I started attending services at the Wiccan Church of Canada I didn't want to be labelled as one of those So Profoundly Pagan That The Dark Side Of The Moon Knows younger people. I wanted to be taken seriously, so I made a point of being clever, literate, and normal, white-bread, if you will.
If I did not wear my pentacle necklace, you could not tell I am a Wiccan. Of course, usually I've got my nose buried in a book (as the current avatar shows ^^) and that book may have something to bear on witchcraft, but usually it also has to do with anthropology, herbalism, religious history, a ripping good novel, or a Grammar Of Poetic Myth.

[Hærfest Leah]

Theres a local group of Pagans I met while we were living in Missouri that definitely came off as play acting. Theres no way they were serious about being pagan or witches and I hate to say it...they were mostly Wiccans. After 2 events I met them for I stopped attending because it was a waste of time.

Their were several others in the area I met who you could tell the definite difference and they were the serious ones so I did keep up with them. They were all of mixed Pagan beliefs, most did witch craft and I don't think any of them were Wiccans. I'm not bashing Wiccans but this was just what I noticed.

[lady_fey]

Just about every Pagan out there (except for a handful that I know personally) became Pagan to justify some alternative lifestyle and thus ends up treating Paganism more like a hobby than a religion.

To justify an alternative lifestyle?
:sadman:

Like........what? No you don't need to spell it out for me.
Truthfully, I think it's a little harsh.

Maybe it is true.

But spirituality is a journey. And it is a matter of growth. Maybe paganism/wicca/witchcraft/whatever you'd like to put here, is a pit stop on the way to the person knowing who they truly are.
What's wrong with that?

Does it harm me or you? No. No more then a person passing through Christianity but lands in Paganism hurts Christianity.
Maybe they'll never "land" anyway.

Hobby? When a person takes up a hobby it can go two ways:
They're either serious about the newfound hobby or they get bored and move on.
Either way what's the big deal? If they like it, great! If they don't peace be with them.

[RainInanna]

for the majority? yes, i agree.

in fact it's weird, but i was just thinking about this today at work.
i've noticed lately that many (most?) of the Pagans i know personally (and this is a VERY large group) treat their path more as a distraction than a spirituality... not much deeper than a video game.

I agree as well. It seems you've got variations from the hobbiests to the laypeople who practice rituals regularly to the more priestly types who live spirituality constantly. I think most would be on the left side of the scale. Of course most of us don't have lives that allow us to be to the far right on the priestly end of that scale, but I try to stay on that side at least.

[RainInanna]

Theres no way they were serious about being pagan or witches and I hate to say it...they were mostly Wiccans.

Wiccans do tend to get a bad rap in the Pagan community sometimes because of people who see that. I think there's two reasons for it - first, Wicca is the most popular form of Paganism, so statistically you're going to see more hobbiests there just because there are more Wiccans in general. Second, a lot of Wiccan authors etc. say "Wicca is whatever you want it to be". You just don't get a lot of reconstructionists or ceremonialists who feel Hellenism, Kemeticism, Golden Dawn, etc. are "whatever you want it to be" including "partying all the time".

I'm not saying it's bad for Wicca to be more flexible and personal (a discussion for another thread anyway, I think), just that when it is so flexible and individual you are bound to get more people who bend it into a hobby.

[Liguana]

I think many enter a Pagan path as an experiment, testing the water before diving in. They get the crystals, jewelry and incense first, putting on a new spiritual attitude like some people put on new clothes. This is not necessarily a bad way to approach spiritual change. Unfortunately, so much time spent tugging at hemlines and asking, "Does this path make me look fat?" can give the idea that it's all about being a spiritual mallrat, kickin' it and having fun with like-minded folk. I believe even hobbyist witches and sabbat-only pagan people are still on a positive path. IMO it's a phase. It's the direction one takes when ready to grow out of the hobby witch phase that is most important. I never disdain experimentation, dabbling or the sabbat only hobby. It has it's place.

I guess I wouldn't spend a lot of time in ritual or making magic with them however. That's not where I'm at.

[mystic_zoe]

To justify an alternative lifestyle?
:sadman:

Like........what? No you don't need to spell it out for me.
Truthfully, I think it's a little harsh.

Maybe it is true.

But spirituality is a journey. And it is a matter of growth. Maybe paganism/wicca/witchcraft/whatever you'd like to put here, is a pit stop on the way to the person knowing who they truly are.
What's wrong with that?

Does it harm me or you? No. No more then a person passing through Christianity but lands in Paganism hurts Christianity.
Maybe they'll never "land" anyway.

Hobby? When a person takes up a hobby it can go two ways:
They're either serious about the newfound hobby or they get bored and move on.
Either way what's the big deal? If they like it, great! If they don't peace be with them.


i agree. i dont have much to add to this discussion, just that i agree with this comment and to say why should it bother people if individuals are part-time pagans...they are on a path and it is up to them to walk the path as they see fit..

xx

[Callatya]

Throwing a thought out there, I hesitate to use the term devil's advocate, but I guess it fits :P

Why does it do no damage?

Its somewhat akin to having a bunch of unlicenced plumbers running around, fiddling with some pipes and then going off again. Soon there will be talk of how plumbers do shoddy work regardless of all the wonderful licenced, well-trained pumbers are out there. Thats not to say people can't do their own plumbing or do some for friends, just that the ones portraying themselves as a business and doing a shoddy job are likely to get more attention.

I was never really great at analogies.

You judge on what you know. If you have only met the rock and roll pagans or the jingly jangly dress-up wiccans then that is what you expect from anyone falling under that heading. Humans love to pigeonhole, it helps us understand the world.

If enough people treat it (paganism/wicca/any religion really) lightly then it will become 'something you grow out of' or 'something you're doing at the moment' for many more of the general public as that will be all they know it as, nothing more.

I can see how it is a good thing to go with the live and let live approach, but the possible ill-effects for those who are genuinely serious about things should not be overlooked. We should at least be aware of what others may well be thinking and judging us by so we can be prepared to clear up any wrong assumptions about ourselves. Much easier to do calmly and factually when you aren't blindsided by someone's take on what you do.

Funny really, I mean it may well swing from the whole evil scary ooga booga man to the fluffy bunny, and I don't know what would be more frustrating a veiw *lol*


Not much to be done about things regardless, its not like its a problem to be fixed because even if you deemed it so, would the problem be with the hobbyists, the general public, the other churches that started the mistruths, or what? I'm thinking it just 'is', but at the same time I like to see as many sides to a topic as possible :)

[RhiannynWildseed]

Second, a lot of Wiccan authors etc. say "Wicca is whatever you want it to be".

I may get ripped for this, but I have to say it....

I sooo HATE that statement. It drives me so nuts when I hear someone say that. I'm not Wiccan, but I know many, and most of them hate that statement. I'm eclectic, and many people will say that's a term that people who can't decide what they want to be will use, but it's really not. I don't feel drawn to any pre-developed, already in existance path. It's just not for me. I like to find my own way and discover what works for me and what I believe. It's not trying to be wishy-washy or just mashing a bunch of differnt beliefs together into some kind of spiritual dumpling! But that's what that statement makes me think when I hear some of the Wiccans going "it's whatever you want it to be." No, it's not! I mean, geez, if that's the case...one could like the actual Christian religion, want to practice the actual Christian religion, but have a problem with the word 'Christian' and say "Well, it's Wicca because Wicca is whatever I want it to be!" It just doesn't make any sense!