Disagreements about Baptism

[JadeEmerald]

Mother is a die-hard Lutheran and wants me to have my bay boy baptized not too long after he is born....my fiance doesn't want our baby baptized until the baby is mature enough to know what it is. My fiance and his brother were both baptized around 10yo. I was baptized at 2wks old....so my dilemna is, how do I tell my mother that we'd like to possibly wait until our baby boy is older? She has her heart set on buying the baptismal outfit, so I need to tell her soon so she won't waste that money. And the thing is my fiance and I aren't set on a religion yet either, so dedicating him to a certain religion is outta the question.

I feel a little guilty because my mother and I discussed baptism stuff before my DF said he wanted to wait....so my mother already thinks it's going to happen. My problem is also I'd like a blessing type of ceremony as a bay, one that says "Here's our son. Bless him and keep him safe from all harm. Keep him in your thoughts and prayers". I definately DO NOT want a "dedication" ceremony that states "We give our son to so-and-so God and religion" since we'd like him to choose when he's older. I guess my fiance and I will have to talk more and we'll both have to confront her on what we want to happen. I can't belive such a simple thing is so hard to do!

Update: I asked my mother today if she'd be terribly upset if we don't do the traditional Christian baptism when my baby boy is born (in January '07), and she said she would be upset.
I don't know what to do.

Is there a WIccan or other pagan ceremony that says something similar as in a Christian baptism? I guess my mom is afraid that if we don't baptize him right away, he will not be "saved". Is there some wording like that?

[Seren_]

If your mother's that religious, then I would doubt any sort of ceremony other than a Christian baptism would do for her. Since other religions like Wicca don't believe in the need to cleanse the soul of sin, and so forth, from birth, I doubt you'll find anything that she'd be happy with...

Wiccans might have a Wiccaning ceremony for their kids, or in a more generic pagan setting you might find some sort of Naming ceremony. While the ceremony is similar to a baptism in that the child is given a name, there are no connotations of "saving" its soul, which I assume is what your mother is really worried about. Promises to raise the child in that religion aren't usually made at naming ceremonies, but the child might be presented to the gods and a blessing might be asked for until the child decides on its own path...it depends.

When it all comes down to it, you're talking about your child here, and you and your partner are going to be the ones who are primarily responsible for its upbringing. Decisions like whether (or when) you should baptise should be yours to make. At the end of the day, this isn't your mother's child, so really she only has a limited say in it.

Of course you don't want to upset her, but I think that's a different issue from what you feel is right for your baby. Whatever decision you make, there could be good and bad outcomes. What's more important to you? Raising your child in the way you see fit, or not upsetting your mum? If you decide to baptise the baby, according to your mother's wishes, will this mean she'll feel that she can weigh in on other parenting issues (and do you want to encourage that? I know I wouldn't want to encourage my mother :lol: )? How upset would your mother really be - enough to cause a breakdown in your relationship? Or in the long run, would she come to respect that she's raised an intelligent and independent-minded daughter, who's old enough to make her own choices with her own family...

I guess I'm just biased. My mother-in-law tried to get my nieces baptised without their mum knowing - if she tries to pull crap like that with my kids, she's got another thing coming. My kids, my rules. Of course I value my MIL's opinion and wisdom on parenting issues, but at the end of the day, they're my mistakes to make (or not), as long as I'm around to raise my kids.

Perhaps you should sit down and try and talk to your mum, and try and reach a compromise - if not an agreement, one way or the other. If you feel so strongly that you don't want your child to be baptised, she needs to know because otherwise resentments might build up between you if you agree to her wishes and then secretly regret it. That's not going to do either of you any good.

There are other issues to think about too - if I remember rightly, when you baptise the child you agree to raise them in the church, as well. Can you and your partner honestly make that promise? If you can't, perhaps you could point out to your mum that she didn't raise a liar...

ETA: Sorry for the long ramble...

[Ceres]

There is no other way to do this than the straight forward direct approach. Its probably best you establish with your mother that while you are thrilled she wants to be an involved grandparent, this is your child for whom only you and his father will make the decisions.

If you dont take this stand now, this will come back to haunt you because she will interfere until you DO establish that.

Dont feel bad about having to be blunt if neccessary - its a very important point to make.

[MariThorn]

I cannot speak for Lutherans, but when parents and godparents attend the christening of their child/ godchild they take up a vocation in the Church. They take vows to raise the child in a Christian home, to send them (if possible) to a Christian school, to assure that the child will be catechised, confirmed, and so forth. If you and your fiance do not intend to uphold any of that, then what your mom is wanting is not right. It is not her child, and she certainly wouldn't want to make you a liar.

It will be hard for her to understand this, especially if your not open about your chosen spiritual path. After all, no Lutheran or Catholic mother and father would refuse to christen their child into their community of believers. However, if she knows you are a witch, then what you want is more important than her saving face to her friends. Just my opinion. The truly sad thing is when people Christen their child and don't even know why. At least you know why you would be doing it and you think it is wrong at this point.

Good luck
Marithorn

[JadeEmerald]

My mother doesn't even know that I am a witch....if she did, we'd have more problems. :( I know I'll have to bring all that up someday, but it's just so hard. I don't want to lose her, but I don't want to be around her if she gets too religios with me on how I'm going to hell if I practice paganism or whatever. I really don't need that since I am 6mos pregnant....is there any "easy" way to tell her my opinions on why I don't want a baptism w/o telling her my religion?

[Ceres]

Yes, just tell her you and the father have decided not to baptize the baby. When she argues, just repeat that you and the father have decided not to baptize the baby. You dont have to get her permission or even blessing, but honestly, you are in the position of being six months pregnant and not wanting to deal with it because you didnt deal with it before now. It isnt going to get any easier. It is time to make your stand, especially since you will have responsibility for a new little person that will just add a whole new dimesion to this problem.

[Lunar Raven]

I really don't think there's an easy way to do it. I know it may be hard, but the straight forward approach is the best way...and she is your mother, so she should understand.

If I ever have kids, I want them to find religion. I don't want to force it upon them..or tell them what's right or what's wrong. So as far as baptism goes, I myself would wait until the child can atleast comprehend the term.

I guess my only suggestion is to tell the truth. You don't have to go into details about your own spirituality, but tell her that you're going to wait..because you don't want to dedicate him to a religion at such a young age. Tell her that you want to give him a chance to learn, and understand religion for himself.

That's what I would do, anyway. I understand that it may be hard to break it to her...but if you don't, this may bother you forever. Spirituality in my honest opinion is something that should be discovered...and a baby has no comprehension of religion.

As radikal said...it's time for you to take a stand. You don't have to be mean, but you need to tell it like it is.

[JadeEmerald]

I guess her main fear is my child won't be "saved". I told her that all children are basically innocent, especially at that age (he would be about 2 wks old if he were to get baptised in her church). She then replied "We are ALL born into sin." I didn't know how to answer that.

[Ceres]

I can sympathize, but if you have trouble dealing with this, imagine the things she will say to your child about it when he is older! Meet the objections head on: its her opinion, respect it, but insist your own opinion on the matter be respected too.

The subject of religion is going to come up, but you neednt tell her you are a witch if you know she will lose it. I dont think I ever said that to my mother, but I did let her know I didnt buy into the whole hell scenario. There are ways of stating your opinion without giving so much away.

I know my mother did an emergency baptism with all my kids when I was out of the room, for her own peace of mind and since it didnt require a commitment from me and I understood the spirit in which it was done (genuine concern for their souls) I let it go.

[Brightshores]

I too have a Lutheran mother. :weirdsmil

She was furious when my brother and his wife told her that they weren't going to have their kids baptized. The thing is - she's not even his mother - he's my half brother - so it was completely inappropriate for her to take that kind of stance. They ended up doing what they wanted to do, with only the occasional snide remark from my mother to remind them of it over a decade later.

She has no idea I'm pagan either, and since (due to various familial issues) we are rather estranged at the moment, it's not an issue, but I hate to think of what would happen if my husband and I were to have kids and go into this whole thing.

I don't have any real advice, other than to echo what everyone else has said and tell you to keep to your own values and beliefs. I know for a fact that ELCA Lutheran baptism requires the parents and godparents to promise to bring their children up as Lutherans, so you wouldn't want to make vows you don't intend to keep. (Not sure about the Missouri Synod, but they tend to be more conservative than the ELCA, so I would bet on it there also.) And I agree - you should make it clear as early as possible that while you value her perspective, it's you and the baby's father who will make the parenting decisions. Be gentle but firm, and stick to your principles.

Best wishes and :hugz:

[demonique]

It's not unheard of for even many Christians not to be baptized as an infant. Baptists, I believe, are the major sect that does that when the participant is old enough to understand and agree, and from what I've been told, this is because Christ himself was not baptized until he was an adult. That may be an argument you could arm yourself with.

But truly, performing a ceremony simply to please your mother is likely to cause more problems in the long run than just telling her flat out that you and your husband have decided against it until the child is old enough to make a decision.

Since she believes in her faith so strongly, and doesn't know yours, does she also believe that you will be actually /raising/ your child in this faith? Does she believe you'll be attending this particular church, or at least a church of this faith? Or does she just want the baptism done, whether you raise the kid in the church or not? If she thinks you're going to be doing the whole church/sunday school thing with your child, and you're not, there's going to be disappointment down the line anyway. Get it over with now, tell her what's what, in nice, peaceful terms, and let her work out her distress on her own.

It might not be a bad idea to at least hint at the idea that you're not Christian. You don't have to go all out and say "hey, I regularly pray to fourteen gods and goddesses and dance nekkid under the moon once a month" or anything, but you could just hint that maybe you don't really buy into all that. Sometimes families can be more accepting of atheism, which they often perceive as a temporary phase you'll "grow out of". Easier to convince themselves, anyway.

[Chesna]

Ohh wow..this is exactly (well, almost) what me and my hubby are facing.
With our daughter we got her baptized only because I felt I needed to and the family expected it..I had not started down this path, but even then it did not feel right.
Before this one was conceived me and my hubby had gone through spiritual changes, I found Wicca and he finaly owned up to his atheism. We decided that this child would not be baptised. we would have godparents to act inthe role of spiritual helpers, those to help us show our children other religions whenthe time is right for them to pick. What we want instead is to do a blessing/welcoming the child into the family. I want the family to offer blessings and welcome to the child and in a box we will ask family members to write down their wishes for the child to be opened at a later date. Whenwe do tell familywe will simply say we will not be baptising our child, we are not raising them in any one religion and it is out decison. We willnot state our religious beliefs becasue they are not the issue and not something we feel we are sharing right now.
Like everyone said, talk to your fiance, make a decison and stick with it. Be direct, respectful and matter of fact. Make sure it is known it is non-negotiable. If they say they are worried about "saving" the baby let themknow that you don't have that same concern and move on. But take care of it now..before itbecomes a problem later.

Good Luck!!

Chesna

[JadeEmerald]

I know she is definately more concerned about "saving" him rather than him attending her church regularly (although she'd be even more happy).

[lynn271]

I second what Radikalwomyn said.

It's YOUR child. You and dad make the decisions, period, and you are not required to defend or justify them to anyone.

Any discussion of the whys and wherefores and of particulars of your religious beliefs with your mother is beside the point and a distraction from the issue, which is that it's YOUR child. You and dad make the decisions, period.

You'll be very glad in the future if you set this extremely important boundary now.

[Seren_]

I know she is definately more concerned about "saving" him rather than him attending her church regularly (although she'd be even more happy).

Really that seems to be her issue, not yours. You don't need to bring your religious beliefs into it. Couldn't you just say you disagree with the idea of baptism and what it's all about, and leave it at that? Perhaps tell her that while you respect her beliefs and value her opinion, on this occasion you just don't share her thoughts on the matter. You don't have to give specific reasons why.

[Moonrush]

Let's see if I have this right, so far: your Mom's main concern is that the baby be accepted by Christ and forgiven of the original sin so that if anything unfortunate happens in his/her small life (before he can make his own choice) that he/she is accepted into heaven to reside with the Lord in eternal peace and love. She is not too overly concerned about you actively following the faith.... just that your child's soul be given a chance to go to heaven. Is that about it?

I had this conversation with my Catholic father when I was prego with my first child. At the time, I considered myself agnostic. Now, I am Wiccan. But, even before finding my path in pagan studies, I recognized that his desire for my son to be baptized into the Catholic religion was his way of caring. Because of how he was raised in the Catholic faith, it was natural for him to want that reassurance for his grandson. He and I debated back and forth over the issue during most of my pregnancy. My husband is athiest to the marrow and would have absolutely none of it, so really, the debate between my Dad and I was pointless. I respected my husband's opinion on this issue much more than that of my Dad's and so never offered for my Dad to go through with it. I still don't think I could have even if my husband was ambiguous on the issue. I'd like to think that what I came up with was a good compromise.

I offered him the permission to pray for my son to his God. It was perfectly fine with me for him to intend beautiful things for my son's soul. Whether he was praying to a paperclip or a deity, I believed even then, that positive energies can and do effect us in our physical and spiritual lives. He accepted that. I was surprised, but really very touched, too. It meant a lot to me that he cared so much about my son, his grandson, to choose to disagree with me over it. He knew long before I was pregnant that our view of faith was very different. He didn't know HOW different, but he recognized that asking me about baptism wasn't going to be an easy thing to do. Yet, he did.

My Dad has since died. I truly believe that asking/allowing him to pray to his God for my son was the best thing I could have done at that time. I don't feel any guilt about it. I'd like to think that my Dad approved of the compromise we reached. I think he was as surprised as me to see that the love behind the gesture is the same whether it was in a church with a priest or in the privacy of his own prayers.

That was my solution to the problem when I was faced with it. Obviously, not every family is the same. You know your Mom better than we all do. But, another thing I can say on the matter is this: As a parent, you need to learn how to make a decision from the heart and stick by it. You are going to be responsible for the life of a little human being who will be totally reliant on you for everything they need. Search your heart and when you find your turth, stick to it. You are a capable, intelligent woman who is about to become a Mother.

"Speak your truth quietly and clearly."
-from Desiderata

Good luck and be strong!

[Xander67]

Have your mother read this.

Preceeding paragraphs have shown that God's Bible says children are not fully capable of distinguishing between good and evil (Deu 1.39, Isa 7.16).
Numbers 14.29 and Deuteronomy 1.39 establish the precedent that God will NOT hold children responsible when He brings judgment for sin.
What is a "child?" By inference from Numbers 14.29, a "child" is a person who is aged 19 or younger.
http://www.biblebell.org/accountability.html

she can't argue with the word of God ;)

[MariThorn]

The Bible also clearly states that while you are to respect your parents, that when a man and woman join together they leave their old family. Your fiance and you are making a new family and while your mother gets your respect . . . it is what you two decide that matters. I think the offering her the choice of a prayer is a good idea. (Not sure if they light candles but that is a thought.) The sticking issue will be if your still sometimes attending a church of her faith and being a witch in private. She simply will not understand more than likely your refusal. That just is how it is.

Also, Baptists don't believe in Christening. It is not the same as baptism. All humans are born with Adam and Eve's original sin on them. Only through anointing with holy chrism oil and sprinkling of holy water is that stain removed. Then, yes the church sees the baby as an innocent until first communion. We don't even think of baptism as Baptists do it as the same. Baptists don't believe baptism saves the soul. . . Lutherans, Catholics, EOrthodox, and Anglicans do. Just a factoid :hahugh:

Good luck on your decision
Marithorn

[JadeEmerald]

Thank you Xander for those bible passages. I just may need those when the time comes.

And thank you to all those who posted, I really appreciate your thoughts. It has really helped me figure things out.

[Xander67]

Your'e welcome :)

Remember, this is supposed to be a happy time for everyone..

[Bansheekisses]

I am also going through a simular pardicument. My husbands mother was raised Catholic, though she isnt practicing, she does want us to have " god" in our lives and thinks it is essential that our son is baptised.
I told her we might do a baby naming ceremony, which dedicates the child to god ( I dont have to tell her which god/goddess), we are going to have godparents that will act like spiritual guides and there will be holy water ( done my way, it is just sea water with rose oil in it).
My family has done baby namings for each child catholic or non catholic alike. I simply explained why it is done and how.
It is done because it is tradition and is a way of remembering my heritage and i am willing to incorporate hers and my husbands dads in it too. Though, mine will be the biggest part of it because it was agreed upon by me and my husband.
I Wish you luck.

[Chesna]

Being lazy and not wanting to read everything..I am in this sme position. Our son (born 7 weeks ago) is not going to be baptised..we told our families that we just don't think it needs to be done and left it at that. Like you, our families do not know I am a witch and my hubby is an atheist, I would like to do a blessing as well. Maybe when you tell her that there will be no baptism, tell tham there will be a blessing. But first, you and your significant other need to decide what YOU BOTH WANT and STICK TO IT. Once you both make up your mind, tell them and make sure they know there is no changing your minds. Let your mom know, this is your child and you need to raise it as you seem fit. It may also be a time to tell your mom of your beliefs, but that is up to you.
PM me if you want to talk about this.

Chesna

[RainInanna]

I see a similar predicament coming up for us soon. My boyfriend's family is VERY Catholic, and his mother did not let her children choose not to go to her church until they were 18 years old. As a result my boyfriend is atheist and fiercely against the Catholic church in particular, and organized religion in general. I tried to talk to him last night about his mom's beliefs and he insisted quite adamantly that his son will not be baptized, will not be forced to go to church, and if his family doesn't like it and stops talking to us oh well.

On one hand I'm glad he won't bend to their beliefs, on the other I see a big fight coming on and he is absolutely 100% not going to compromise!

[Sun Sprite]

I think everyone has the right to chooses thier own religious path, and a newborn can't do that.

Simply explain that to your mom, and that you will let your children make thier own choice when they are old enough to understand religion, and have studied it well. Until then, they cannot dedicate themselves to anything, and you will not dedicate them, without thier knowledge or permission, to a branch they may not choose.

Better days,
Sun Sprite

[DreamSpell333]

i definitely agree that you need to put your foot down now,and let your mother know that this is the way things are going to be. that you arent baptizing your son.
My husband and I had to tell my Mother in Law that we werent baptizing/christianing our daughter. We want her to decide on her own her religion. So she knows that when vincent is born,that he also wont be baptized. We did baptize Olivia though,as she wasnt going to survive,which mom was happy about. (she doesnt know though that my husband also did a private ceremony)

Good luck telling your mom,I hope it doesnt cause too much of an argument between the three of you. Your mother has to respect your wishes though. :hugz:

[Morr]

I'm with everyone here -- Put your foot down.

Its YOUR child, not your mother's.
She raised you as she saw fit, its your time to raise your child as you and your fiance see fit.

Enough said.

I am pregnant myself and intend to keep this philosophy with my parents.

My husband's mother doesnt approve of the name Crowley for a boy because its ""inappropriate"" (Crowley after Aleister Crowley). When we tell our parents I am sure they will not like it as well. But if we have a boy his name WILL be Crowley.

We do not intend on having any sort of baptism (my husband was raised Catholic) no matter what his family says. If we have a boy he will be circumcized by a Reform (very important that its reform) Jewish Rabbi for several reasons:

1) hygine and health reasons -- We both think circumcision is the healthiest choice to go with.
2) Rabbi, not doctor -- I've heard horror stories with doctors, but my entire family, friends, etc who are Jews and have been circumcized by a Rabbi never had a single problem.
3) My family would like a circumcision, but arent strict about it. A Reform Rabbi would be just fine, no need for any Orthodox ultra Jewish Rabbi.
4) My husband has no problem with the Jewish side of things. Reform Judaism is not strict, is very open and accepting of interfaith couples. There is absolutely no judgement of others and thats what faith should be in our opinions (I also work at a Reform Temple in teaching Hebrew and they are so very welcoming and open. There are lots of same sex couples and interfaith couples, we are all viewed as equal to any other Jew).

So for us, that part works out.
But something like baptism -- Which is a commitment towards a religion, ESPECIALLY when you are not feeling comfortable about it -- Should not be something forced upon the parents and the child.

If the child understands and chooses to be baptised or dedicated to any other religion when they are older -- Go ahead.

I believe that as difficult as it is (and I know how difficult it is to stand up to parents and have them listen to something they DONT want to hear), stand your ground!

Good luck! Keep us updated *hugs*

[stella01904]

I had a friend years ago named Joe.

His grandmother wanted him to be named Ira. This was a perfectly fine name many years ago, my own grandfather was named Ira. His parents didn't want this, though, and they named him Joe. They told the grandmother that he was named Ira.

At family barbeques, everybody gleefully called him Ira :hahugh: and the grandmother was satisfied. The whole family got along, there was no rift because they didn't name him Ira.

Sometimes, when people overstep and won't take no for an answer, you just gotta shine 'em on. Tell her you already had the kid baptised.

[Tanya]

I have to weigh in with Radikal. You have to be as kind as possible but your finacee's feelings MUST be more important than anone else in reasing your child. The mother NEEDS to have boundries set for her about your ralationship priorities so far as your child is concerned.



I went with a "We haven't descided how we are going to deal with that yet, but WE both here you and are considering your feelings on the subject. "

stress the WEs.... and stress that this is ultimately NOT up to her, no mater how much feeling she throughs at it... this is a form of manipulation. If you let her force you in this... it may well ruin your marriage... over the long haul...

[Cat]

At some point you will have to make it clear to your mother that you aren't Lutheran and neither is your child. Whether you want this to be that point is the question.

If you don't want to deal with that now and you are looking for a compromise, I suggest the Universal Unitarians. CUUPS is a very inclusive organization and welcoming to pagans. You can have your child baptized there in a way that should satisfy your mother and you as well.

[Zoritsa_Nepenthe]

I went through this 13 years ago when my oldest was born.My Mother is Catholic and my Dad's family Lutheran,so it was just assumed that my kids would be baptised.My Mother just couldn't understand my reasonings,but she eventually accepted that it was my decision.She did bring it up for about 4 years after he was born,but finally stopped when I started in with,"if god would send an innocent child that wasn't baptised because of his/her parents decision to hell,I don't want to believe in a god who would allow that".Needless to say,we don't discuss religion at all anymore,but I finally got my point accross.

[Calen]

This should not be your mother's decision. It's nice that you are trying to be respectful of her wishes, but this is between you and your baby's daddy. You should base your decision on what you think is the best choice for your own wee family and your own wee baby.

You don't have to get too into it if you don't want to. Tell your mother (soon) that you and baby's daddy have decided that you won't be baptising your child, because you want to give them the choice when they get older.

If she goes on about saving the baby's soul, I guess it's all you can do to say that you don't believe your baby will be born sin-ridden, and that you intend to raise them to be a good, moral person.

Good luck!

[Keli]

Mother is a die-hard Lutheran and wants me to have my bay boy baptized not too long after he is born....my fiance doesn't want our baby baptized until the baby is mature enough to know what it is. My fiance and his brother were both baptized around 10yo. I was baptized at 2wks old....so my dilemna is, how do I tell my mother that we'd like to possibly wait until our baby boy is older? She has her heart set on buying the baptismal outfit, so I need to tell her soon so she won't waste that money. And the thing is my fiance and I aren't set on a religion yet either, so dedicating him to a certain religion is outta the question.

I feel a little guilty because my mother and I discussed baptism stuff before my DF said he wanted to wait....so my mother already thinks it's going to happen. My problem is also I'd like a blessing type of ceremony as a bay, one that says "Here's our son. Bless him and keep him safe from all harm. Keep him in your thoughts and prayers". I definately DO NOT want a "dedication" ceremony that states "We give our son to so-and-so God and religion" since we'd like him to choose when he's older. I guess my fiance and I will have to talk more and we'll both have to confront her on what we want to happen. I can't belive such a simple thing is so hard to do!

Update: I asked my mother today if she'd be terribly upset if we don't do the traditional Christian baptism when my baby boy is born (in January '07), and she said she would be upset.
I don't know what to do.

Is there a WIccan or other pagan ceremony that says something similar as in a Christian baptism? I guess my mom is afraid that if we don't baptize him right away, he will not be "saved". Is there some wording like that?

If you are wanting to apease your mother, go ahead with the baptism. I don't see that it would hurt. And it doesn't tie the child down to being of any religion at all. If you aren't trying to apease your mother (and I'm not sayint that apeasing your mother is a bad thing, not at all), then just let her know that y'all have talked and decided to wait and let the child choose the religion. If she loves you (which I have found that most mothers do, lol), she will be ok with it. Heck, even if she isn't ok with it, she still loves you and won't hold it against you. Not for long, anyway. lol. I mean, she does know that you aren't sure of your religion, right? And she still loves you, right? lol I have found that the fear or nervousness of doing something is a lot more severe than the actual doing of it.