Skepticism .. help me (another long post)

[phoenix9]

EDIT: Well.. this post is a bit of a rant .. I was in a bad mood at the time.. unless you are extremely interested, just skim it and skip to my first reply below

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Hey All,

First off, let me forewarn you that this may offend some of you...
I don't really mean to, but I'm gonna try to write this as frankly as I can.

Those of you who read and helped me in my last thread (thanks again by the way) know that one week ago I "came out of the broom closet" to my parents, their less than warm reception is, much to my chagrin, causing me a mild crisis of faith. I mean, don't get me wrong, at the level of theology I am all with paganism, I believe in the basic equality of the sexes (with a slight glorification of the feminine, despite my own masculinity), equality based on other measures (race, sexuality, sometimes age, etc.), polytheism (to the extent I accept the concept of deity), reverence for nature (and parts of it too often viewed as evil.. such as sex and nudity) ( though I feel like I don't do enough personally), and the basic acceptance of pluralism (i.e. not believing their is a "one, true way"/ accepting the views, beliefs, practices of others). The one major theological debate I have with the majority of pagans is on the concept of afterlife ( I don't tend to believe in reincarnation)

Where I am starting to have an issue is in the area of magic(k). I am a rationalist, my mind tends towards the logical approach, inductive reasoning, etc. (For a little context, I am taking 5 AP courses, have a GPA ~4.3, and want to go to MIT. My major interests and favorite subjects (with the notable exceptions of philosophy and theology, music, and literature/poetry) are all maths and sciences: Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Physics, Calculus, Chemistry .. basically I'm a huge nerd). I have made a logical, philosophical case for the hypothetical existence of magic(k) and, in fact, the metaphysics that governs it (when I'm in a more mystical mood, I attribute this revelation to Athena, because I perceived it shortly after praying to her).
It is quite sound (if entirely theoretical) and more than one person has agreed that it makes sense.

Like I said, however, I am an empirical persons and I have as yet, not experienced magic (I'm tired of typing (k) ) myself. That is, of course, at least partially a result of the fact that I have attempted no spellwork myself. This reason is twofold: firstly, my parents.. they would certainly not like my joining a coven (if I could find one) and generally show dislike of my practice (which is why, I have not as yet, set up an altar). The second reason .. is doubt. I don't think I really believe any of it can exist. I can sort of accept the concept of spell like prayer, concentrating energy (not energy in the chemical sense.. but "energy" or "force" or some other word I can't think of, for the 5 non-conventional logical "elements" my theory on magic is made up of) and releasing into the world to accomplish your end. I have become increasingly doubtful reading after reading some of the crazy shit on this site, however, (this is the offensive part).. threads like "how can I talk to dragons?", "Faerylore Class" in the COT, etc. This comes off mostly as patently insane to me.. there are no such things as dragons, no such things as faeries... AHHH!! There are many more examples, but I don't want to offend more people then I have to. I even am very unsure about concepts like Astrology, Tarot (and divination in general.. though I do have to wonder about deja vu, etc.) and other things... its all so frustratingly irrational .. part of me is screaming THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MAGIC!!! but the other part isn't so convinced. I could expound on this much, much more.. but I notice that my coherence is less than ideal and I'm not really coming to a point so I'm gonna move on to my actual point....

Did any of you have a similar experience prior to further exploring your path? does anyone sympathize? WHAT SHOULD I DO?!?!?

(warning: more offensiveness) I feel like this isn't even a good place to put this, like so many of you people are already off in crazy land (clearly my mom's opinion of paganism is getting to me) .. and frankly .. I've seen other pagans (on blogs and such) who say that many people here are fluffs and crazies.. but I don't have a better place to pose the question .. so here I am.
Back to topic,

As I see it, I have a few options:
1) I can abandon paganism all together (obviously not what I want.. or likely, given that I am even posting this thread... though it'd make my mom happy)
2) I can get more books, do more studying, set up an altar and see if it works for me (try to approach it open-mindedly .. no "bad vibes"). There are two problems with this approach: first, $$$ .. books cost money, candles cost money, incense costs money ( I don't even have a censer). Second, and more pressingly, PARENTS!! .. my mom isn't a big fan of paganism .. she is very squeamish about the term "witch" .. in the past I haven't even looked at a particularly Wiccan path, but its starting to appeal to me more.. if she sees me reading "Where to Park Your Broomstick: A Teen's Guide to Witchcraft" (which I hear is pretty good, despite its ridiculous title) she is likely to have an aneurysm (not really .. but .. she won't be happy). If I set up a Wiccan altar the contents will make her very concerned (she will NOT be willing to accept the symbolism of an athame). Really I'd like to go this way, but I'm afraid to be in conflict with my parents. There are several books I'd like to get.. the one I mentioned above, the new edition of Drawing Down the Moon ( I read the 97 edition), several of Isaac Bonewits books, maybe Hutton .. I'm considering the Spiral Dance, but I think the extreme feminism might bother me... anyway I'm sure you have several recommendations if I go this way.
3) keep being semi-discrete .. keep wearing my pentacle .. get a couple of the books.. more reputable ones.. Adler, Hutton.. maybe Bonewits ... but no Starhawk or Manoy .. try some tool-less rituals. Keep concentrating on meditation, etc. but ignore or forget magic ... maybe discretely play with some tarot.
4) A mid-ground of 2 & 3 .. or an even more mild version of 3
5) Something I haven't thought of yet.

Anyway.. thanks for reading my sometimes mean, sometimes incoherent ramblings. Any help would be appreciated... I feel so confused..

Blessed Be,
~Phoenix9

[ladyraven]

First, just because you can't see something, doesn't mean it's not there. There are those who can see these things and trust me if they tend to feel crazy everyday. Magic is real. I personally feel the same way as you, with the prayer and concentrating energy. That's mostly of what my spell work consists of. Now yes, some things that you come across here can sound odd, but if you don't think it exists, don't bother with it. Basically take what applies to you and go with it. That's the great thing about being pagan, you can pretty much go about it how ever you like. You don't need to join a coven or set up an alter. The only thing I recommend is having a candle or two around to help you concentrate or meditate; though not because you need them, they just help. Like I said before, just take what applies to you and leave the rest and don't be afraid if how you wind up practicing or not practicing paganism, just do what you feel is right for you.

[Lunar Raven]

I've had my doubts from time to time, and I haven't done a whole lot of magic work yet...but from what I have done and experienced, I can tell you that it exists. Most people are thrown off by the word 'magic' itself...because magic is portrayed as a hokus pokus...wiggle the nose and see change type of thing.

Scott Cunningham's definition of magic is this:

Magic: The movement of natural energies to affect needed change.

I find this to be an absolute perfect definition for it. Natural energies undeniably exist...you can't see them, but you can feel them.

As lady said...you don't have to have an altar..or join a coven. Do what you feel is right. If you feel Wicca is for you..stick with it! If you don't, let it go...but don't let your parent's completely discourage you from following your heart.

[Amelserru_halqu]

First of all you should consider attending Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology, it is another excellent school, small, and rural with lots of places to perform rituals. Besides I go there and you know you want to be where I am. ; ) (Oh and your parents should be suficiantly far away, don't give in to their fear, for fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.)

More importantly do something and see what happens. Also since you are a geek, like me and a lot of other magically inclined people, consider reading some older stuff, a good overview of magical traditions is Richard Cavendish's The Dark Arts (it may be black arts), definitely read Aleister Crowely, Richard Gardener (if interested in Wicca), Dion Fortune, Isreal Regardie, study psychology to see how rituals affect the mind. Guess what else, these books are almost all online and FREE!!!
(Many of which are at www.sacred-texts.com)

I suggest that you read some works on chaos magic for a view of magic minus the spiritual side as well. Find and read the theater of magic online too, I found it most useful.

Also consider the many other paths, whether it be asataru, hellenic, satanism, chaos magic, or discordianism.

Feel free to PM me, though I'm still just beginning, I've been through much of what you're going through.

[phoenix9]

Thanks for the thought so far.

A couple clarifications: I haven't actually ever looked into joining a coven, I just threw that out there. I think its an interesting concept, but I think it is unfeasible for me (cause my parents would object).

As for an altar, I would actually like one. As I stated (sort of subtly) I am not really Wiccan right now, so I doubt I'd even want to follow the Chalice, Athame, Pentacle, Wand form. But I would really like to set up a censer (and get some nice incenses), some candles, maybe a couple statues ... I don't know really. I think having a personal altar would be good for my personal spiritual growth (and I already know the perfect place for it), but I really think my parents would object.

I appreciate the concept of faith in magic, and I would like to apologize for my overly dismissive tone earlier (though I'm still a little concerned about people talking about Dragons / Faeries or hexes / curses. And I still am skeptical about divination and the like ).

Really, in a more rational tone, what I am asking for is guidance. How would you recommend that I tackle the subject of ritual and magic? Also, is it okay and rational to experiment with things I find no logical basis for, for example, the tarot, despite my skepticism of them?

I don't know .. when I wrote the long rant before I was in a bad mood and I'm more subdued now. I just want to grok magic (which I DO believe exists) in a way that causes minimal conflict with my logical frame of mind. I saw the thread the other day on the guy who successfully cast his first circle.. and I just feel .. I wish I understood his joy.. when In truth I don't even know what that means. I look at the "New Age" section of B&N (cause apparently paganism doesn't belong in the "religion section" -_- ) and so many of the books there are apparently, for lack of a better word, complete shit. "200 Love potions for teens"/"How to summon vampires"/ etc. and I think .. is it ALL this crazy? (which is what my parents believe) .. and at the same time.. part of me feels this (paganism .. not those books) is right, that somewhere in here lies the greater truth (for me .. cause I doubt its the same for everyone).

I don't really know what I'm asking for... but I hope someone here can tell me it anyway .. cause I just feel lost. Well, not lost, but stalled .. wandering for a while in the woods.. .. looking for the right path.

Anyway, goodnight.. and truly from the bottom of my heart (well my anāhata chakra, anyway, clearly my cardiac muscle isn't involved; see, here I go rationally ruining a matter of emotion) Blessed Be to All of You

~ Phoenix9

[Aleannah]

It seems as though your right brain and left brain may be in conflict...the right brain being your logical side and the left being your more artistic, alternative (for lack of a better word) side (I'm sure you already know this). Anyway, what I would suggest to you is to look at two classes in the CoT section: Energy Work Basics and Basics of Spellcraft. Personally, I would look at the Energy Work Basics class first, as in order to work with magic, you need to work with energy...to know what it feels like to you, and to understand that even though you cannot see it physically (okay, there are some that can - I personally cannot), it is there and it is real, and you can manipulate it. Then, once you learn the basics and are comfortable with that, then move on to the Basics of Spellcraft, which will make more sense to you after learning to work with energy. Really, that's all magic is - putting your energy into a thought or action to realize an outcome. Of course, realize that magic will not do all the work for you - you need to do the mundane things as well to get the outcome you desire. I know this is brief, and I would be happy to try to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability. I am not well versed in science, so I couldn't help you with that aspect, but I would certainly try to help you any way I could. :)

[Avalanche]

You're not the only skeptic. I'm a science nerd too. Magic, divination, and dragons don't go well with me. I was kind of an atheist for a while too. I wanted to believe, but it just wasn't logical to me. Eventually, I figured there's gods or I'm schizophrenic and stupid enough to trip over nothing.

If you want to experiment with things, go ahead. I let my friend do a tarot reading for me once. My brain tells me it's a bunch of BS, but then, I suppose I turn off the logical side of my brain sometimes. I was semi-Wiccan at one point, and even though I was really skeptical about the whole magic thing, one of my Wiccan friends told me to try a spell.

You could ask your parents to pretend you're just going through a phase. My parents think that and it makes them happy. Actually, I think my mom knows it's not, and I think she's kind of okay with it. At first, it was real hard. My parents forced me to go to church and were being jerks about the whole thing, then they just ignored it and tried to pretend it was a phase. My stepdad's still in that stage. My mom just doesn't want any of her church friends to know about my religion. Hopefully, things will go well for you.

Books shouldn't be too hard to hide. I used to hide a ton of Pagan books. But my stepdad found them when I moved away and threw them all away. I would read them at night or when my parents were gone. I had candles too, but my parents think I'm a pyromaniac so they never thought much about that.

I don't know much about setting up altars, but perhaps you could set one up so your parents wouldn't know what it was. I've got a "shrine" in my backyard. Too most people, it looks like a hole in the ground with burned stuff in it. My parents think I just have bonfires for no reason. Of course, they know I do weird stuff for no reason, so they probably assume the fires are just another weird thing (another phase I've been in for six years).

Good luck, and may the Force be with you.

[Philosophia]

As a science nerd *ahem*, I can agree. I'm skeptical and I rarely take anything at face value.
Maybe you can look at magick from another POV. When I define magic, I simply say its the energy that surrounds us. The energy is in everything and can easily be manipulated to what we desire.
Psychics, mathematics, technology, etc. can all be a part of a pagan lifestyle. It doesn't have to be totally void of these.
You also use physics laws as ethical guide and to also understand the basis of energy (or magic). If you want an altar, try to make it about *you*.
Science can help you understand magic.

[Mouse]

:hugz: Your confusion and frusteration is understandable, and your disbelief! I've seen some pretty amazing stuff concerning magick and despite that there are times I sit here on MW shakeing my head or yelling my opinion at my monitor about crazy people.
There are a lot of loonies in paganism, but there are a lot of really great people too. (I fit into the first catagory obviously! :lol: )

An altar would probably benifit you, but remember even when Wiccans first start out they most of the time don't have all the tools either. The tools are great but not really something begginers need to run out and buy. In the first couple of years studying paganism your ideas and beliefs change so much it's pointless to get all the fun shinny stuff straght away.
Altar item ideas: coloured candles, pretty rocks/crystals/garden rocks, small matching bowls for the elements (if you are into that kinda thing), photos, cords/plaited ribbons, statues, pretty perfume/oil bottles... the list is endless.
You can make it look non-witchy fairly easily. I can come up with some random ideas if you like.

The thing to remember with magick is you don't have to believe in it for it to work. As long as you can convince yourself for 10 odd minutes while you charge the spell it doesn't matter if you believe in general.

[shadesovgrey]

Hiya, another science nerd here. I also find it difficult to believe in fairies, magic and divination etc. When you see pagan websites its easy to think "i have to believe/do those things to be pagan" but its not true. Religion is completely personal, don't force something on yourself that you don't truly believe, because you'll never find any true depth to it. It will be someone else's religion, not your own.

I don't do elaborate rituals or talk to dragons or anything like that and I still consider myself pagan. I meditate, do some gardening, go down to the beach and soak in the sights and sounds. I don't believe in reincarnation beyond our bodies going back to the earth and being used to sustain other life. As for magic, isnt nature itself magical? That a huge tree will grow from an acorn, a person from a tiny baby; the structure of our entire cosmos is utterly incredible to me. I find joy and peace in the beauty and sacredness of nature, and the miracle of life it gives, and for me, thats enough.

I'd advise you to forget everything you've ever read about what you "should" do or believe to be pagan, and think about what you believe. Use that to construct your religion/spirituality and you'll find it much more fulfilling.

Good luck :)

[Vigdisdotter]

You know what? I'm a skeptic by nature :) but I'm also a Witch, and a Vitki and a Shamanic practitioner. And I know all this to work because I've seen it work, so my skepticism doesm't come into play.

What really helped me over come my skepticism about magick was my martial arts. I do Ninjutsu and in my first dojo there was a heavy emphasis on Ninpo (the esoteric portion of the art). Doing Ninpo I learned to meditate and work with energy. And I WATCHED and FELT how that energy worked on myself and others. It gave me a tangible reference point for something was intagable....according to society.

Anyhow, my point is that if you can find a practical application for your working were you can observe the actions and results, this will go a long way to helping you over come any self-doubt you have.

[ladyraven]

Phoenix, what you discibe as an altar you would like to have can actually be kept under the radar pretty easy. I once lived with a few over zealous christians and had to hide that I was pagan. You can set it up on a bedsie table, window sill or another surface that would be kept in your room. Just place a few candles, an incense burner and a statue or two around. They don't have to be anything big. I have two, both white owls carved out of sand stone on mine. I've known people who get little animal figurines that have to do with their god/goddess or use the virgin mary to represent a goddess. And lots of people burn incense, not just pagans.
No one has ever really expected it to be an altar. They just think it's a table with decorative stuff on it. Thos who do know, tell me the expected a lot more than just the few candles, incense burner, owls and a few crystals.

[bshore]

Hey, let's hear it for the skeptics!!!

I question everything. Everything someone tells me, I ask for a source. Everything I read, I want to know where they got that idea, and where that person got their idea, and how I can test that idea and find out for myself if it's true.

As a result, I'm also not a very 'witchy' Pagan. In fact, I call myself a Pantheist. But, I still know for certain that the things that people experience and tell us about are real. We may not have the same experiences, and therefore those things may not be real for us, but for that person, dragons of faries or whatever are part of their reality.

Consentrate on what you know. Don't bother with trying to make yourself believe something that seems foreign. Spirituality should come naturally and be a source of joy, inspiration, and comfort.

Peace.

[Rhisiart]

Im the same as bshore above me, a pantheist. More so Im a Natural Pantheist Taoist that practices Chaos magick. I was right where you are when i was 16 or 17. I spent years looking for something different, as you have also. Kabbalah, Voodoo, Shamanism, Witchcraft, AA Spiritualism, and in all there were little bits here and there that rang true to me but none in their entirety. I too am a creature of logic and rationality. I look at new ideas from 12 different sides before I decide if its reasonable or not. The same was with my magick belief as it was with my spiritual belief. It had to make sense from every angle. As Ive moved along thru my life Ive witnessed some strange things, experienced the minor miraculous event and the odd reoccuring circumstance enough to not totally throw away the idea that there may be an underlying energy connecting us with everything...apart from our connectedness that we are all made of the same energy and matter as stars, planets and galaxies...much like the connection a quarterback makes with the ball when he throws the perfect pass, the ball is connected and an extension of his Will. Ths what magick is, an extension and connection to Will. Anything that helps strengthen this can be called magickal if you will, but all are simply tools to amplify Will.

I was one of those that wanted Magick to be like I saw it on TV or in movies, books and legends. I too have disbelief in the supernatural fantastical and base my beliefs on science, observation and reality. So I know that while my magick may help me strengthen resolve to keep undesireable forces from my life, its not going to make me bulletproof. It may give me the courage to pursue the one I love, but it wont rob them of their own Will to say no.

I too dont have an afterlife belief at this time. There are far too many and thay all seem too unreasonable. Why have a short life to die and live an eternity doing nothing at all? If its to be with God then why not skip the middleman? Reincarnation sounds great but again, life after life to learn what? You would know it when you died and then have to decide what fate to give your next life so you could...learn it? wha? If I did believe it would be alot like the 1983 movie Brainstorm with the centralized Source as a kind of deity and souls/spirits seeking to rejoin the Source after death. No individualism per se, but human experience added to the source then recycled for other life, be it human or whatever. But I dont believe that right now...BUT IF I STILL DID as I use too, this is the most reasonable and logical as it goes along with energy and matter recycling thruout he Universe.

and you thought your post was long...lol..

So my advice? First dont read the SilverRavenbunnyTigerWolf book you mentioned unless you wanna be flufferfied...kidding, read everything you can and make your decisions based on your reasons, what you feel and most importantly what you connect to, because in the end, as long as your beliefs help make you a better human being (not self-righteously so though, heh), they cant be totally wrong. Think of Magick as elaborate affirmations designed to help you accomplish realistic goals and desires and your on your way. You altar is just somewhere to set focus materials to help strengthen your belief and Will. If you believe in or have a connection to Athena, then use that as a basis for your magick. Research Athena and make up your own rituals and spells based on what you feel would connect you to Athena better. The bottom line is using whatever tools you believe will work to affect realistic change thru YOUR WILL.

Oh and remember, your young so expect to change your ideas and beliefs as you go! Im almost 39 and mine change and grow constantly. Dont worry, you wont be penalized for it either...at least I dont think so...

[aeroeng]

It seems as though your right brain and left brain may be in conflict...the right brain being your logical side and the left being your more artistic, alternative (for lack of a better word) side
Not that it matters for this discussion, but you have the sides of brain mixed up, right is creative, left is logical...but I digress (already, that's bad, even for me)

Wow, so many skeptics on here, that's great. Well, I too am of the nerd/science background. Being an Aerospace Engineer, I was hardcore math and science all through school (aced the math portion of SAT and got a 5 on AP calc test, then went to best aerospace school in the US...no it wasn't MIT). I too have been searching for a spiritual path that fit me. I've sort of always been pagan (albeit not practicing). As it goes today, I'm still figuring this path out. As far as the dragon and faeries and such go, I believe in them, that they reside in another plane of existence. Of course it helps that I believe that there are other dimensions and I believe in the multiverse (multiple dimensions of different earths similar and different to ours..think of the show "Sliders" for ease of visualization). And I even have a scientific basis for believing in the multiverse (anyone can PM me if they wish to hear about it...it has to do with wave interference patterns and stuff). So I figure if there are already alternate dimensions with alternate earths, why not other planes where creatures such as dragons and/or faeries reside? But that's not that important for this discussion either. (I'm terrible at going off on tangents...I'm really not this bad all the time).

Basically you need to figure out what it is that you believe and what it is that works for you. That seems to be the underlying theme I keep hearing from pretty much everywhere I look. Afterall, these paths are supposed to reflect you and your connection to the earth and/or the divine in however you percieve them.

I read your other thread about breaking the news and going to the festival. Sorry to hear that it sounds like things could have worked out better at home. Luckily, I live alone and can thus practice however I want (not that my mom has a problem with it, [I did get rather lucky in the parent department]). To some extent you have to say "screw the parents" and do what you need to do (I'm not advocating doing anything that would cause lots of tension however). If need be do your best to keep it secret until you can go off to school. Again, it all comes down to what feels right for you, and it may take more exploring and learning to figure out what that is (I know, I'm in the exploring/learning phase myself).

You cited money as a reason for holding you back on books. Check the local library. In such a topic as this, I doubt there would be a large waiting list for any book you choose to check out...letting you renew to your hearts content until you can finish it. This also lets you explore without shelling out the precsious $$ on books that may seem to "fluffy" or not in the direction you want to go.

Lastly, I know it's tough with such a scientific mind to accept the things like magick and such...because you need the proof. Or at the very least, some type of explanation that makes sense. As far as energy work goes, I can't see it either (or yet...I'm a noob afterall), but I know it's there, beacause I can feel it. For a reading suggestion, I've been readin "the inner temple of witchcraft" by Christopher Penczak. It focuses on the internal side (meditation, etc) and I've really liked it so far (anyone else have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of this book?).

Perhaps my favorite word since starting to learn as much as I can is "eclectc"...because no particular path has caught me hook line and sinker.

Good luck to you pheonix!

(see, we can all be long winded)

[phoenix9]

Thank you too every one. I appreciate all your insights. Most of you told me exactly what I needed to hear: things I already knew or thought.. it just helps to hear them reinforced or reciprocated by others. I haven't really come to a clearer decision .. but this has given me something, theres something soothing about this discussion. It seems like if, as I search, I again become skeptical to the point of dismissal that I can come back and read this and feel better.

Also, it seems to have brought out some of the more rational MW members... good to know who those are; no offense really meant to the other people, its just good to see who I can identify with. I appreciate all the offers to PM people questions, and I may very well take you up on it.

Anyway .. by all means if you have any more to add, go ahead. .. if not, I am glad for all the things I got already

regardless, Thank You to all and Blessed Be!

~Phoenix9

P.S. random note.. I wonder why I am slipping more Wicca-y in my practice choices, i.e. using the expression "Blessed Be" more often .. and more often directing thoughts to "Goddess" rather than a specific goddess (Athena, Eris, Artemis.. ) as has been my habit. I wonder if/how this relates to me getting the beautiful Pentacle which I have been wearing religiously (not surprising, given its a symbol of my religion) ever since I bought it? Like I said, irrelevant to the discussion, just wondering aloud

[Toriach]

Hi Phoenix.
When I first started walking the path of magick (At this point the k to me is second nature but personally I don't think it matters how one spells it we all know what we're talking about.) I was very skeptical. I had heard some people claim that magick could make real changes in the physical world of the agreed upon reality, and I had heard others claim that all that happened was a change in ones own consciousness with no effect in the physical world. So I started to experiment. I decided that I would do a spell. If the spell was to be a "success" the following things had to happen. 1: The results had to take place in the external(obviously as two people intersted in Buddhism we could debate what that means until the cows achieve enlightenment but I think you get the sense in which I'm using it in this case, mainly not all in my head)world. 2: The results had to be at least seventy five percent or better in line with the goals of the spell. 3: The results had to occurr wholly or in part by means outside of my control. At the time a friend of my roommate was having problems with harrassment from an ex boyfriend. This was a few years before the anti stalking laws so it was much harder than it would be no adays to deal with such a person. She had gone to court to get a restraining order and he failed to appear to speak on his own behalf. The judge in a case of grade A asshattery declared that until the ex appeared he would not issue the restraining order. So this left everything in limbo, with the psycho ex doing his psycho ex thing. The court date was rescheduled but sadly it would be with the same judge. So I did a spell. The spell was designed so that the next time they had their court date the decision would irrevocably be in my roommates friends favor. Furthermore the spell was crafted so that the psycho ex would just go away. The next day the ex was again a no show in court. However the judge who should have been there was out sick. The judge who was presiding over the case instead issued the restraining order in a heartbeat and openly stated disdain for the other judge. After that psycho ex was not heard from again. That fairly well convinced me that there might be something to this magick stuff. I continued to explore and the more magick I did the better I found it worked.
So I'm a believer. On the flip side though if I personally haven't experienced something I tend to be more than a bit skeptical about the claims of others. Some I simply don't "believe" because I haven't had the experience. Some I outright disbelieve because they strike my BSoMeter as being unlikely to impossible. Most of the time though as long as the person in question isn't trying to get something from me that they haven't earned, (My money, my time, my respect etc) by making such claims I tend to nod and smile and let them believe what they like.
My advice to you is to start experimenting. You don't need to be a member of a coven to work magick. Start with little experiments and work your way up. Decide for yourself what is true to and for you. However I would advise you to also work on learning to accept that just because you haven't expreienced something doesn't make it not true. Good luck in your quest.
Peace
And
Long
Life
Toriach

[Cappy]

Like I said, however, I am an empirical persons and I have as yet, not experienced magic (I'm tired of typing (k) ) myself.

I don't see why you should, I've been a witch 8 yrs and I made my first spell on my third yr. I find that if you leave things alone, things have a way of working out on their own.


The second reason .. is doubt. ...."how can I talk to dragons?", "Faerylore Class" in the COT, etc. This comes off mostly as patently insane to me.. there are no such things as dragons, no such things as faeries... AHHH!!

:) You don't have to believe what other people do, that's the beauty witchcraft. You do what is right for you. If it makes you feel any better, I don't believe in dragons either ;)


Did any of you have a similar experience prior to further exploring your path? does anyone sympathize? WHAT SHOULD I DO?!?!?

Absolutely!! My parents raised me in a very pagan house hold, basically they did their own thing and tried not to influence my sister or I so that we can choose our own way. Although they never forced us into rituals (I'm not sure they even had any) they would talk about things like spirits, energies, past lives at the dinner table. I didn't believe them, having never experianced anything like that. After a few yrs of blocking myself with the "impossible" frame of mind. I decided to abolish the word impossible, then things started working out for me. Just try to be open to the possiblity, you'll see.


As I see it, I have a few options:

Go with number 5 - Something else. Who says you have to make up your mind RIGHT NOW. You have the rest of your life to make up your mind about spirituality. There is not right or wrong answer. We won't be mad at you if you decided that wicca or witchcraft is not right for you. Becoming a witch was the easiest decision for me but only after I decided not to take Silver's book 100% seriously. Only when I did things my way did things feel right.

[skilly-nilly]

I don't do elaborate rituals or talk to dragons or anything like that and I still consider myself pagan. I meditate, do some gardening, go down to the beach and soak in the sights and sounds. Good luck :)

I am also a 'science nerd' but I am a biologist, so I don't expect things (including Magic) to be expressible in a formulaic way but rather than in the messy, this-works, bits-left-over way that organisms use.

**aside-I call it 'Magic' because 'Magick' reads to me with clear overtones of a cat puking up a hairball: "Maaaa-gic-kkkkk". Sort of like the sound Gollum uses in the movie--reasonable, since he (the actor who voiced Gollum) actually did use the cat/hairball sound as a template- end of aside**

I also can speak on both shades of shades of grey's divide; I do ritual and talk to OtherWorldly Beings (including Dragons) and I meditate and garden.

So that's my introduction, here's my opinion:

I think you are speculating in advance of your data. You are unsure of what to do and are too embarrassed to prance and chant, but you doubt other peoples' reports. (Never a bad idea to doubt other peoples' reports, btw)
Without personal experience, you are actually outside the experiential loop.
Granted, 'belief' and 'provable fact' aren't congruent, but they can coincide as well.

I think your problem is that you are trying to make Magic causal but in my belief it is actually transactual. That is, I think that you are approaching it as an experiment--if you follow this formula, this reproducible result will ensue. Or, to use an example for the 3rd repetition, consider the person who sends hir dog to a trainer. The trainer demonstrates all of the dog's commands at the end of the course, the owner takes the dog home. At first, the command/action link works very well but gradually the link breaks and the dog pays no attention to the owner. Disgruntled, the owner brings the dog back to the trainer and the dog responds to all of the commands perfectly.

I believe that there are 2 main components to Magic:
the Will of the practitioner,
and
the agreement of what is being acted on as to the outcome.

So, what to do?

I think Toriach's advice is excellent. In order to be able to direct and refine your Will, you must practice. This component of Magic is perceptual (which is, I think, why peoples' reports are so different and vivid) and internal. You must 'see' your energies in order to manipulate them effectively. Meditation is, I think, the key. Sitting, walking, chanting, dance, yoga---whatever works for you personally.

Sitting works for me, and my breakthrough was to light perceptual candle-flames in meditative space. This, if it works for you, is a way to get around the conflict between your wish for an altar and your parents' disapproval--make a meditative altar.

Then, you have to contact Whomever you will be working with/dedicated to/worshipping. This is also perceptual on your part but transactional on the part of the Being. And also involves practice. You have to be someone that Someone wants to communicate with. My belief is that God/s/dess/desses investment in humans is that Ze wants us to be our best selves, and is willing to facilitate those changes for our betterment.

One of the things that facilitates change is the passage of time. For now, you can practice meditation, read books at the library, take yogi or tai chi classes, refine your ideas/beliefs with on-line conversation. Later, when you have more practice and freedom to act, you will be better able to know what you want to do.

[demonique]

As an often too-logical geek, myself, I constantly wrestle with the idea that all of this is just pretty fiction in my head.

But I have done magic. And it has worked. I have felt it, just as I have felt diety. The only way to feel magic, the only way to really believe in it is to use it. There is no harm in trying - or failing. There is no harm in experimenting.

You don't need an altar, or fancy tools. They're nice, and I love them, but you don't need them. Simple things work as well as non-simple things. Dollar store candles are as cheap as they come, and you can always save the altar setup for when you're out of your parents' home.

Do magic. Set aside your skepticism. I am naturally skeptical of virtually everything. But skepticism, while something I consider healthy in general, can also lead to premature failure before you even begin. If you think you can't... you probably can't.

I say go for it - experiment with tarot. Experiment with things you find silly, or useless. See if it works for you. Don't give up on the first failure. Or the second. Sometimes things don't work on the first try, especially if you're already predisposed to believing they won't. But what's the harm in trying? And you may indeed feel utterly silly the first couple times around. I sure did. But now, I feel completely at home at my altar, doing things that people around me find foolish. But then, I find it foolish to believe that Satan is out there trying to make us all do bad things.

As far as the whole dragons/ faeries bit... well, a whole lot of sane, rational Christians think angels and demons exist, and I find that just as silly as dragons and faeries... but whatever works for them, I guess. ;-) I would LOVE to believe in faeries, but I'm afraid I just can't wrap my logical little mind around it. Santa and my imaginary friends will have to be it.

[Dawa Lhamo]

^_^ You can be pagan and not practice magic. You can be pagan and not believe in magic. There are plenty of Pagan paths out there that don't emphasize magic. Heck, there are plenty of them that don't say anything about reincarnation.

There's usually *some* kind of magico-religious element in a religion... Christians even have it with their sacraments... but one need not be a magic-user in the same sense a witch is in order to follow a Pagan path.

Wicca, certainly, is a Witchcraft religion... it's hard to separate the magic from the religion... but in many non-Wiccan Pagan paths, particularly reconstructionist-types, there is no need for a particular individual to practice magic. Such religions usually have a *place* for a magical/mystical person... but the majority of the practitioners do not practice magic themselves.

My suggestion would be to do a little more exploring of your options.

If you really feel you are drawn to a magical religion, such as Wicca, then I'd still start out slow. Set up an altar not for the purposes of magic but for the purposes of worship. Because that, first and foremost, is the purpose of an altar. A place of worship. Don't worry about having the right tools or whatnot... just include things that you feel are sacred, that your Gods would appreciate. I wouldn't worry about casting circles, but I'd go out and listen to the trees, get out into nature, start marking the seasons and phases of the moon... try to get in touch with your Gods.

I've heard that Marian Green's A Witch Alone is a particularly good resource for this sort of thing. I haven't read it myself (though it's on my list of books to pick up) but according to a friend of mine, it gives a good grounding in how to relate to the land around you in a Craft sort of framework, without dropping you in the middle of a complex ritual practice for which you have no context.

Just some thoughts. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[morningstar2651]

You don't have to practice magic to be Pagan.

You might want to check out this excerpt (http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/defs.html) of Aleister Crowley's Magick in Theory and Practice.

[alabaster]

You've got some great advice so far. I don't have anything else much to say other than - relax and enjoy.

You don't want to practice magic/k, talk to dragons, dance with fairies, then don't. Your faith is your own, and if all it consists of is staring up at the moon sometimes and remembering She is around you, then do it. Best of luck.

[Sage Rainsong]

For a little context, I am taking 5 AP courses, have a GPA ~4.3, and want to go to MIT.

I hope that you get in. It may surprise you to know that MIT has a large Pagan group. have never been to one of their meetings but I know people who have and have loved it. My point is that you can be interested in science and be a Pagan as well. you don't have to abandon your logic. I hope that you find your way.

[phoenix9]

It may surprise you to know that MIT has a large Pagan group.

I was aware of the MIT PSG's existence.. and at one point my plan for paganism was to wait until (really if) I got there and then start exploring when I was beyond my parents' control. I was afraid it had disappeared since their site is so long un-updated .. although I did find a footnote for sign-up for 2006 IAP classes in Ancient Languages that said "Note: Space limitations do not apply to PSG members. If you are one, tell me in the comments box." ... so maybe its still around. If you have friends at MIT, which you implied, and have any more info on their current status I'd like to know. Thanks!

Anyway, OT, for those of you who follow them, hope you are having an enjoyable, productive, etc. Esbat. Just noticed the full moon, so thought I'd throw that out there.

THANKS TO EVERYONE who has replied so far, you really are making me feel better.

Blessed Be,
~Phoenix9

[Bix]

One thing that really helps put your mind into focus is to just sit down and write down what actually you believe. Don't try and fit your beliefs in the confines of any religion you've been studying. Take a few moments and summarize everything you feel about: gods, magic, afterlife, etc.

It really helps you focus your thoughts and it's a great starting point for expanding your knowledge. Good luck!

[Darbla]

The Library of Knowledge ( http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/tomekeeper/ ) has a no-nonsense, brief course on magic(k), and somewhere in those pages he describes how to do a simple spell. This requires no tools or other purchased items.

I'm still a skeptic too, but I can tell you a small incident that happened to me that has made me keep investigating this path.
I have been into essential oils (for natural pet care, non-chemical home cleaning, non-perfumey scents) quite awhile, and I had bought a bottle of myrrh oil that was hella expensive. A few days later when I went to use it, I could not find it to save my life. I looked in all my cabinets, drawers, and boxes where I keep my oils and other scent and craft supplies, and it was nowhere to be found. I was very upset because as I said, that stuff is not cheap. I continued searching for it off and on.

A couple weeks after that I was sitting in my truck in a parking lot waiting on my husband to run a quick errand when I started pondering the missing myrrh. Even though I didn't really believe in magick and hidden energies helping you blah blah blah, I figured I had nothing to lose so I decided to try something. I made up a little chant:
"Oil of myrrh, return to me soon.
By no later than this afternoon."

Stupid sounding, I know, but it was the best I came up with on the spot in the span of a few seconds. I chanted that repeatedly, and in my mind's eye, or my imagination, or whatever, I envisioned a vortex of clouds begin swirling in the sky over me, moving those unseen energies at my command, and with a swirly spout of wind very much like a tornado moving up from me to the clouds. I had no preconceived idea of what I was going to visualize; the vortex was completely spontaneously created. I carried this on a few minutes until hubby reappeared.

When I got home, without even consciously thinking about it, I went straight to that bottle of myrrh. It was the first thing I did when I walked in the door, even before unloading our purchases. The oil was in a Wal-Mart bag (it did not come from W-M), where I had dropped it and completely forgot about it, offhandedly stuck on a shelf. After looking for it for 2 weeks with no luck, I walked unhesitatingly to it after that little mental exercise of concentration.

I don't know if the impromptu visualization ritual is what did it, but it surprised me enough to keep investigating metaphysics. That and the orb that circulated our living room that scared Mr. Darbla half to death one night......

I have a 'traveling altar' that might work for you: a large dish (mine's a glass pie plate), colored marbles or aquarium gravel in the 4 colors representing the directions in the 4 quadrants of the dish, a votive candle with appropriate color and scent for the direction in each of the quadrants nestled in the marbles/gravel, a votive glass in the middle for burning incense cones. You could tell your parents it's a type of candle garden that can be purchased in many stores these days.

Good luck,
Darbla