Celtic Language Requirement for Modern Druidry

[KellyP]

Please express your opinions regarding the following statement.

Study of a Celtic language is a requirement for those wishing to practice modern Druidry.

[StormVixen]

i vote strongly disagree because it would discriminate against those with difficulty learning other languages if it was required...

i dont think im any less of a Celt (no im not a Druid so i guess technically my oppinion doesn't count in this conversation) because i cant speak the languages although i have looked into learning cornish... i think its what you believe,the strength of faith you have, and the knowladge of the culture that count...

[Meadhbh]

People should at least try to and I plan to learn more than I know now. But, some people just don't have the time or resources to learn another language. So it should be kept in the realm it should be done, but doesn't have to be.

[Tadrith]

I voted strongly agree. Knowing information about a language is key into understanding a culture, its inner workings, social castes, etc. For someone to properly study druidry, in my opinion, requires atleast a little knowledge of their language.

Tad

[ap Dafydd]

I voted strongly agree. Knowing information about a language is key into understanding a culture, its inner workings, social castes, etc. For someone to properly study druidry, in my opinion, requires atleast a little knowledge of their language.

Tad

I also strongly agree, and I think that most CT and CR Pagans would. Trying to learn a culture without learning its language misses the point, you can _only_ understand a culture by learning its language. Languages do not map onto each other exactly, they are the key to a method of thinking that is entirely different.

I wonder whether anyone would even consider learning about US culture without trying to learn English!

Language is a skill, not an ethnic characteristic, and like all skills, it takes work to acquire. Each of us is fluent in at least one language but took years to get that way.

And I do speak from experience on this. I'm not a native Welsh speaker and there's none at all in my family. I learned Welsh as an adult and carried on learning, not quite to degree standard.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Fiamma]

It depends.

For example, why would, say, ADF (http://www.adf.org) require people to study a Celtic language when the organization itself is pan-Indo-European?

On the other hand, if a strictly Celtic group wanted to have that as a requirement, I wouldn't necessarily agree with it because it could exclude those with problems learning their own native language...but if it's a private group, it's their right and I don't think it's *entirely* unreasonable.

[Nantonos]

I neither agree nor disagree (unfortunately - would have preferred an "other, see below" choice).

Studying a particular (named, dated) Celtic culture is important, including its language. The language in isolation is not sufficient, however.

I don't consider language study to be essential, far less fluency. Desireable, yes, but so are a bunch of other things.

I also don't consider studying some random Celtic language, or studying a modern derivative of the named, dated language to be especially helpful.

Its odd; no-one (I hope) would suggest that studying, say, modern English is a big help for a Norse or Anglo-Saxon recon (just because its a modern development of the 8th to 12th century language they spoke). And yet I often see people suggesting that syudying moden Irish or modern Welsh is both a big help and "essential" for CR, regardless of how similar (or not) the modern language is to the relevant historical language.

Perhaps I can best make this point by quoting a bit of an older Germanic language (describing a ritual). Does knowing English really help you here?

Eode Wealhpeow forð
cwen Hroðgares cynna gemyndig.
grette goldhroden guman on healle
ond þa freolic wif ful gesealde
ærest East-Dena eþelwearde
bæd hine bliðne æt pære beorpege
leodum leofne;

Similarly, for people who read modern Irish or modern Welsh - does it help you understand Gaulish any?

[skilly-nilly]

I agree with Nantonos' lack of agreement or disagreement.............

I think it is useful to understand a few phrases, know some terms, comprehend how the language works and is different from one's own.
Fluency is another matter.

Without another speaker it is almost impossible to become conversational in a different language and (as Nantonos points out) conversational fluency in a modern language is wholly different from knowing an ancient language even if the one derived from the other.

Not only are there no real speakers (milk-language people) of ancient languages but some of the modern Celtic-group languages have very few/almost no speakers as well.

Reading comprehension in another language is different from experiencing it. It conveys information, but it's a solitary enjoyment that doesn't carry over into daily life at all. I live this language break-down since I can fluently read my country's other language and am wholly unable to chat with Quebec-speakers because they are using a slangy spoken language only loosely based on the written one.

As well. some people have a natural aptitude for language and some do not. To insist that all followers of Druidry be able to fluently converse and read one or more of the Celtic-group languages selects all of the poor language learners out of the group. It would be like insisting that every neo-Druid learn a Celtic instrument or be able to sing well so that they can participate correctly in the chanting---it seems unnecessary to me.

However, respect for the language of one's chosen ethnicity is, I think, essential.
On the one hand, part of that respect is understanding how important phrases, titles, names, concepts are expressed in the language. Which is why I keep keep dragging "It's THE Morrigan" into discussions.
On the other hand, part of that respect is not using the language of one's chosen ethnicity for snobbish distinction rather than genuine religious distinction. Which is why I don't drop "An-Mór-Ríogain, please" into the stew.

On the gripping hand I find (and I think that the God/s/dess/desses too) more to admire in genuine religious fervor expressed in one's native language than in a McTat (More Celtic ThAn Thou) display of persiflage.

[coaxialkettle]

what is "modern" i do not know
we never left the Ancient
there is but One
BrotherHood...
BlessedBe
some fragments of what it takes
what it takes......so many Roads
so many tongues and tales
to learn
and love
http://www.mountainman.com.au/a_tyana0.html

[Nantonos]

what is "modern" i do not know
we never left the Ancient


So, if its all the same, you could read the text I quoted perfectly well?

[coaxialkettle]

the tree alphabet took twenty yrs to learn
the alphabet tree took twenty thousand years to learn
vast are the Teachings
"specialization" is for insects...
no mouth is big enough to utter the whole truth

[skilly-nilly]

twenty alphabet insects utter the truth

:gagged: :stomp: :durrrr:

:blor: :blor: :blor:

And sometimes there can be no slightest scrap of communication even in a shared language.

[Ryd Firedreamz]

Why would people want to learn a dead language to be in a religion? Nordic pagans wouldn't need to learn old norse, kemetics wouldnt need to know egyptain language, greek recons wouldnt need to know ancient greek. Why would celtic recons want to do the opposite?

[Tadrith]

Because knowing a language, even its syntactic structure, can help with the understanding of a people.

Also, if you're trying to reconstruct a belief system from a specific era, why would you NOT want to learn the language of the time? If you're already fascinated by the faith, the people, the times... why stop there and NOT learn the language? Seems silly to me.

My only problem is that I can't fit in an extra course of Irish Gaelic in my class schedule :(

Tad

[coaxialkettle]

the more languages you learn,dead or alive,the more humans/divinities you can relate to and learn from was what i meant and symbolism in mythology
brings reason and understanding whereby many enmities can be reconciled.

[Seren_]

Why would people want to learn a dead language to be in a religion? Nordic pagans wouldn't need to learn old norse, kemetics wouldnt need to know egyptain language, greek recons wouldnt need to know ancient greek. Why would celtic recons want to do the opposite?

Some recons do. Language can have rich and deep meanings which you'll only be familiar with if you are familiar with that language and the culture it belongs to. Certain words even in modern English have far different meanings in Britain than they do in America, say. 'Fag', 'fanny' or 'biscuit' all have different meanings in both countries. Words through time also change their meaning, or have different meanings on a more local level - a 'faggot' where I come from is a type of meatball, in older times it refers to a bundle of sticks used for kindling, and today, it's widely used as an offensive term.

It's inevitable when translating a myth from an older language (for example) that certain meanings will become lost in translation because of lack of understanding and/or the lack of adequate words in the modern language to convey the particular meaning of the words in the old language. So understanding the language of a particular time and place can be a valuable means of understanding the mindset of the people whose religion you're interested in constructing, in that time, in order to understand the more mythical/spiritual subtexts that are present in a story. For some people that's a valuable way of reaching an understanding of their own spirituality and relationship with the gods dealt with in the tale.

[Ryd Firedreamz]

Also, if you're trying to reconstruct a belief system from a specific era, why would you NOT want to learn the language of the time? If you're already fascinated by the faith, the people, the times... why stop there and NOT learn the language? Seems silly to me.


Well, there is no use in it. Sure certain religious terms would be useful but there is no point in learning how to speak it if you're never going to use it. Only you and a limited number of people that speak it will be able to engage in conversation, and it will be limited even within your particular religious group. Even if you're interested in that particular group of people, learning how to speak their now dead language wont be any help unless you're an archeology. It wont help you to study them. If you want to read old texts, the ones found are already translated. Theres no need in using up all that time.

[Nantonos]

Even if you're interested in that particular group of people, learning how to speak their now dead language wont be any help unless you're an archeology. It wont help you to study them. If you want to read old texts, the ones found are already translated. Theres no need in using up all that time.

Replying because its worth noting that no, 'the old texts' are not in the slightest "all translated". And for those that are, the translations may be dodgy, outdated (100 or more years old), or predate discovery of better manuscripts.

Also that translations have to strike a balance between literal accuracy, readability, and (for poetic material) scansion. Also be less than 20% footnotes :) so, often its necessary to go back to the original and check a particular word and the connotations of that word.

[Ryd Firedreamz]

Replying because its worth noting that no, 'the old texts' are not in the slightest "all translated". And for those that are, the translations may be dodgy, outdated (100 or more years old), or predate discovery of better manuscripts.

Also that translations have to strike a balance between literal accuracy, readability, and (for poetic material) scansion. Also be less than 20% footnotes :) so, often its necessary to go back to the original and check a particular word and the connotations of that word.

The ones that have BEEN FOUND are translated, unless for the ones that they can not decipher. Knowing the language wont help you decipher if you don't know the symbols. If the proffesionals cant decipher it, it's not very likely a common person can do it. Some are literally translated but some are not. For certain metaphors and such, you can figure it out while in english or whatever modern language a translation might be.

[Zibblsnrt]

Well, there is no use in it. Sure certain religious terms would be useful but there is no point in learning how to speak it if you're never going to use it. Only you and a limited number of people that speak it will be able to engage in conversation, and it will be limited even within your particular religious group. Even if you're interested in that particular group of people, learning how to speak their now dead language wont be any help unless you're an archeology. It wont help you to study them. If you want to read old texts, the ones found are already translated. Theres no need in using up all that time.

Lemme guess, you're monolingual.

[Nantonos]

The ones that have BEEN FOUND are translated, unless for the ones that they can not decipher.

Sorry. This might be news to you, but thats simply not true.


Knowing the language wont help you decipher if you don't know the symbols. If the proffesionals cant decipher it, it's not very likely a common person can do it.

Your assumptions as to why things aren't translated don't cover many actual cases. "Not knowing the alphabet" is rarely the problem.


For certain metaphors and such, you can figure it out while in english or whatever modern language a translation might be.
Indeed.

[Tadrith]

And hell, even knowing a bit of a language can help its survival. Such as learning modern Gaelic, its a slowly dying language. Languages are a beautiful thing and knowing how to speak it will help it survive.

And again, language DO help in learning about a culture. It's a fact. No, I'm sorry...

IT'S A FACT!!!

That's better.

Cheers,
Tad

[Ryd Firedreamz]

Sorry. This might be news to you, but thats simply not true.



Your assumptions as to why things aren't translated don't cover many actual cases. "Not knowing the alphabet" is rarely the problem.


Indeed.

Yes it's deciphiring the letters thats the main problem. If the language is known, then all can be understood except the letters needed to translate the text, so it isn't logical to say "its simply not true".

Learning DEAD languages is not needed to better understand a culture. That is an opinion not a "fact". It would only be useful if that culture was still alive and they spoke the language. Why would I go to Egypt, learn ancient Egyptian, and attempt to talk to them? I wouldn't learn anything! It would be useless for ordinary people.

[Zibblsnrt]

Yes it's deciphiring the letters thats the main problem.

Yeah, Linear A sure got nailed down after we figured out what sounds the letters stood for. Ditto for Etruscan!

[Faol-chù]

Hey, Zibblsnrt...

Mhothaich me gu bheil thu às a Halifax. Bu mhath leam fhaigneachd....
A bheil Gàidhlig agad? (Tha mi' n dòchas!! :) :))


Le meas,

[Agaliha]

Why would people want to learn a dead language to be in a religion? Nordic pagans wouldn't need to learn old norse, kemetics wouldnt need to know egyptain language, greek recons wouldnt need to know ancient greek. Why would celtic recons want to do the opposite?

I just wanted to say that many Kemetic Recons do want to learn the language and if not the full language than parts as they are used to rituals and devotionals in such. If you are part of House of Netjer you'll see that the use to Kemetic words and phrases is there
.
I'm not saying Aset won't listen to you if you don't speak to her in Kemetic, but learning the language (parts, AT LEAST leaning the Kemetic versions of the gods' names, phrases, etc) is IMO a sign of your dedication and respect to the pantheon and to the culture.

Also are you aware in Hellenistic Recon many Greek words and phrases are used? And that many of the recon paths use words and phrases from the past?

I've even seen a site about the Proto-Indo-European religion and pantheon with reconstructied PIE for rituals. Proto Indo-European Religion -> PIE Main Page (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuo7.XzFFLk8B45NXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3MzZwOWxpBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMwRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANGODI1X zE0Ng--/SIG=11vccqmjq/EXP=1160950142/**http%3a//www.ceisiwrserith.com/pier/index.htm) (rituals (http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/pier/ritual.htm))

Ultimately it's the persons choice. If someone wants to learn a dead language part of their spiritual path why is that a bad thing?

PS:
Not all people that honor Kemetic, Norse, Greek, etc pantheons are Recons. Many aren't.

Recon:
Polytheistic reconstructionism, or simply reconstructionism , is the practice of re-establishing and practicing historical polytheistic religions in the modern world. (wikipedia)

This would, for some, include the langauge.

[The Dagda]

Hahahahaha..........

Luath no mall, thosaigh duine eigin ag iarraidh na ceisteanna tabhachtach! Agus anois, nuair ata an ceist nios tabhachtach iarrtha, leim na leithsceal o na leisciuil!!!!!

[Selenite]

When something is translated into another language a lot is lost. The original author phrased what he/she wrote so that it would flow together, or maybe use alliteration, or the context of the words used would give a deeper message, etc. So yeah, you can find translations of something, but it won't be the same as reading it in the original intended language. Just my $.02

I think learning at least a little bit of the particular language your path is linked to is a pretty good idea.

[StormVixen]

but all that doesnt mean the people that know the old languages are any more religious than those who dont.

[Faol-chù]

but all that doesnt mean the people that know the old languages are any more religious than those who dont.

"Religious"...absolutely not...

.....Knowledgeable about the ways they are studying (if they are, in fact using Celtic culture and ideaology as the basis of their 'religion')...they most certainly WILL BE!! (And I understand that a lot of 'druids' don't use Celtic ideaology as the basis of their 'religion'.)

Having studied Scottish Gaelic for the last 5 - 7 years, I will tell you that I have a much better 'intuitive' understanding of what is going on in what is read (and said) than I ever thought about having before studying the language.


...And I'll throw this at you as food for thought...
It seems pretty clear that what was thought of as 'divine' and was not separated from everyday life. The 'religion' was not separate from the rest of life in pre-Christian Celtic times. There were, most definitely group gatherings, and they were special...But the divine was in the daily doing of the smallest things.

For the record, I did not answer the poll, because I have very complex views on the subject...Ranging from the fact that a lot of so-called 'druids' don't base their ideaology on Celtic ideaology, anyway, to the fact that I do not believe that modern Celtic cultures NEED 'druids'.

Le meas,

[ancestral_lee]

ryd,

its also a matter of respect. if you go to a foreign country the chance are they will be able to understand your english. however i think you will agree its respectful to at least make an attempt thier language to communicate, even a little.

the same with gods, the gods many of us commune with come from cultures with its own language. i think its only respectful to them that you at least learn to address them in thier own language. it shows that you are making an effort to approach them. if nothing else it at least shows some degree of committal.

lee

[Tadrith]

attempt thier language to communicate, even a little.


A very complicated situation there. You can try to communicate to people in, say, cymraeg, completely botch the language and realise that the person you are talking to doesn't speak a word of it. Alternatively, you can just go in the universal language for that area and get a clear message across without embarassing yourself and your audience.

Tad

[Brightshores]

For what it's worth - I agree that learning a Celtic language is a good idea for those wishing to follow a Celtic-inspired path, but I disagree with making it a "requirement."

Perhaps for strict recon paths it should be required, but for "druidry" in general, I think a requirement of that nature would be a bit unnecessary, particularly in situations like the ADF which are pan-Indo-European in focus. I would have a hard time telling someone who feels spiritually drawn to druidic paths or Celtic spirituality in general that they cannot follow their spiritual callings without studying language for years and years (which is what it takes to become fluent). It becomes particularly problematic, IMHO, if that person lives in a remote area or something and does not have ready access to classes, teachers, or anyone else who speaks the language, or enough money to take a course. Should that person suffer spiritually because of his or her location/finances/circumstances?

Personally, I'd love to learn both Irish and Scottish Gaelic, but apart from a few phrases, I haven't been able to do so yet.

Oh - btw - Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Welsh are not dead languages - they are very much alive. They are endangered, yes, but not dead. Welsh is spoken by over 500,000 people, Irish Gaelic by over 350,000, and Scottish Gaelic by over 60,000. (www.ethnologue.com (http://www.ethnologue.com)) Even here on our local public TV station (Philly suburbs) we get Irish language soap operas!!

[Crysiira]

I think it's truly useful to know the language, but not "required"... that's a bit much. I agree that it provides insight to the culture that you wouldn't get otherwise, but I also agree that it doesn't make a person any more religious. Knowledgeable, definitely, but not religious.
I've been trying to learn Irish for awhile, but time restrictions and lack of anyone else to study with, along with lack of anyone knowledgable to give me some help with the pronunciations, is really not helping me along. I don't see myself as lacking something now, but I do see myself as gaining something whenever I do learn a bit more.

[KellyP]

I have followed the results of this thread with great interest and feel that many excellent points have been made. For my part, I answered the poll with the ambiguous option of neither agreeing nor disagreeing. Yes, I know that some would have preferred an Other option but I was wanting to apply the more traditional 5-item Likert scale as my measurement.

Many people have focused on the "speaking" of a Celtic language in their comments and I am glad that they have, however I would emphasize that the original comment was whether the "study" of a Celtic language should be a requirement.

I believe I set the poll to be active for 60 days or so. Once that time is completed I will be back to discuss the results!

[odubhain]

I strongly agree that one should study a Celtic language to be a Druid. My reasoning is simple:

1. Druids are the priests of Pagan Celtic cultures.
2. They are the preserving shrines of Celtic traditions.
3. Celtic societies and traditions are best defined and preserved in their native languages.
4. Without Celtic languages, there are no Celtic societies and Celtic cultures are diminished
5. If modern Druidry is to have a link to Druidry, it is through the origins of Druidry within Celtic culture, society and language.

Doing anything else would be a redefinition of what Druidry means in both modern and ancient forms. This hasn't stopped some people from redefining Druidry, however, which is IMO a loss to truth, Celtic culture and Druidry itself.

Searles O'Dubhain

[RainInanna]

I find it hard to imagine identifying myself as a practitioner of a path without totally immersing myself in it's culture, including it's language. A path so based in the culture from which it springs can only be thoroughly understood and practiced by understanding its culture, IMHO.

That said, I don't feel it's a prerequisite for studying Druidry at all, just a prerequisite for calling oneself a Druid. In my experience I could learn much about Ancient Egypt by immersing myself in Kemeticism, but it didn't mean people can't worship Isis unless they do so (sorry I'm more familiar with the Egyptian gods).

[coaxialkettle]

Agreed
HYE noticed how *modern* people use as many words as possible to cover the lack of meaning in what they say?

[odubhain]

Agreed
HYE noticed how *modern* people use as many words as possible to cover the lack of meaning in what they say?I don't understand what *modern* means in this context.

[Mainedruid]

This is very intresting indeed. First off... Which "old" language do you wish to speek? that of the scotts? or the old irish? or maybe go so far back as Ogam? Druids of old spoke many different things depending on where they were from, much like today.

I think in any path knowing your back ground is important. I'm glad we have fragments of these old languages to look back on. It is us who keeps it alive, but like people, languages evolve.

I say, Follow your path and stay true to heart. Know your history.

I personally use my native language in spell work, prayer, and every thing else so there is no confusion, at least on my side of the veil. The gods/goddesses dont care which language you speek, its the intent they hear, and intent is universal.

[Tadrith]

It is very important to study the Celtic languages, it should not be overlooked that the Druids did also use Greek and Latin for conversation. These should also not be maligned either. It seems to me that they are of a "lesser" importance to gaelic; being that most of the records, in written form, were done by Christian monks whose language was gaelic. I see it that in knowing gaelic, you can "grasp" the meanings better than a translated version of the stories.

Anyways, enough from me.

Tad

[Nantonos]

Iit should not be overlooked that the Druids did also use Greek and Latin for conversation.
Did they? How do we know that?

[Twig]

I'm sorry but having that as a requirement would be tantamont to requiring everyone in Africa to know swahili because they are black.

The Gods don't care what language you speak. It's the INTENT.

Peace,
Twig

ps - I'm BAAAAAAAACK!

[Tadrith]

I don't have my books on hand, but I know that they spoke it. I mean, it's illogical NOT to think so. Try being a trading partner with someone who you cannot comminucate to. Try being mercenaries/soldier for an employer if you don't understand his language. I think its obvious that they also spoke greek and latin, but if you require proof (and any smart individual should), I know Peter Berresford Ellis lines out a few in his books on the Celts.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

I'm sorry but having that as a requirement would be tantamont to requiring everyone in Africa to know swahili because they are black.

The Gods don't care what language you speak. It's the INTENT.


What of knowing the origins and meanings of ritual objects such as the craebh ciuil? Or knowing the proper definitions for the Grove Festivals? What of honoring one's ancestors at Samhain with at least a few words in their native language? Having at least a base-line understanding of the elements of the Celtic Languages, I feel, IS important. Learning is part of Druidry, an essential part.

[odubhain]

I'm sorry but having that as a requirement would be tantamont to requiring everyone in Africa to know swahili because they are black.

The Gods don't care what language you speak. It's the INTENT.

Peace,
Twig

ps - I'm BAAAAAAAACK!Hi Twig,

Your original premise is mistaken. Not everyone in Africa originally came from a culture speaking Swahili, nor are their written documents in Swahili. If a person was to become a member of an Igbo Voodoun cult, I'd recommend they learn Igbo. This is so they could better understand ritual, culture and some of the magical workings, as well as communicating with others. The same is true of Celtic based cultures and religions like Druidry. A great part of the culture is written, recorded and expressed in the Celtic language native to it. If for no other reason, a person should learn the languiage to honor the culture that gave birth to its religions.

I also agree with you that the gods need no specfic language to comunicate with us. Their is a language of spirit and mind as well as being. They speak to our souls. However, we don't always speak to other people in that soul-language nor did our ancestors who we honor. Learning a Celtic language to be a Druid means we honor the culture of Druidry, the ancestors of Druidry, the works of Druidry and the wisdom that is hidden within those languages. One should not ignore the languages that are an essential part ogf Druidry any more than one should attempt to ignor the gods.

Searles O'Dubhain

[blackroseivy]

That would be wonderful.

Now:

Who's gonna teach me...? :p

[odubhain]

That would be wonderful.

Now:

Who's gonna teach me...? :pIf there's not a teacher near you then there are books, tapes, CDROMs and DVDs aplenty that will get you started. I'd think that going to an ADF or Keltrian grove might be a good start as many of their members also learn and/or speak Celtic languages.

I have links to resources here:

Look at the Irish lessons here and also the links at the bottom of the page. (http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/irish/gaelic.html)

Searles O'Dubhain

[RainInanna]

Your original premise is mistaken. Not everyone in Africa originally came from a culture speaking Swahili, nor are their written documents in Swahili.

Nor are we suggesting learning a language simply because of your ancestry (home country or race), but in order to fully understand and appreciate the nuances of a religion that has been born from a specific culture and time.

You don't have to learn a language just to call yourself African, but you should fully immerse yourself in a religious culture if you are going to call yourself a priest of that religion.

You're born naturally into a race or ancestry regardless of how you feel about it, you *choose* to study a religion and how you practice it.

[blackroseivy]

All the Christian priests had better learn Aramaic, then.

& how about Egyptian pathers? Better learn Both ANCIENT Egyptian & heiroglyphics...

[blackroseivy]

If there's not a teacher near you then there are books, tapes, CDROMs and DVDs aplenty that will get you started. I'd think that going to an ADF or Keltrian grove might be a good start as many of their members also learn and/or speak Celtic languages.

I have links to resources here:

Look at the Irish lessons here and also the links at the bottom of the page. (http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/irish/gaelic.html)

Searles O'Dubhain

I'm afraid I need a teacher. & I have no car.

Perhaps SOMEDAY I can be a "real" Druid...

[odubhain]

I'm afraid I need a teacher. & I have no car.

Perhaps SOMEDAY I can be a "real" Druid...The sear4ch for knowledge is a part of the Druid way. There's enough information online to begin a study of Irish. I think that doing this search will put you in contact with a teacher. That's how I found an Irish teacher. He walked into a Pagan shop and the owner said hello - "Jia gwitch!" to him. He was a native speaker from Connacht and more than happily taught classes in Irish to our group for 6 months. We also enjoyed meeting up in the local pub afterwards. He had thought never to hear Irish in the US and was glad to spread it around a bit. Learn a few phrases, hang out online or in RL where Irish is used and spoken and you'll learn it eventually. That's how native speakers learn Irish as children (by listening and trying).

You'll be a "real" Druid on the day when a Druid calls you a Druid. That will be a great day.

Searles

[RainInanna]

& how about Egyptian pathers? Better learn Both ANCIENT Egyptian & heiroglyphics...

I can't speak for Christians, but as a Kemetic I did start studying the languages (btw AE languages & hieroglyphics are not two different things, though there isn't just one AE language either). Before I finished I realized Kemeticism was not home for me, but I certainly wouldn't consider myself a proper Kemetic without having continued my studies.

[RainInanna]

I'm afraid I need a teacher. & I have no car.

Perhaps SOMEDAY I can be a "real" Druid...

What does a car have to do with the "books, tapes, CDROMs and DVDs" part of odubhain's post? If you need help finding those, I am sure you need only ask.

[blackroseivy]

I mean, I can't learn from that stuff. "I need a teacher."

That to me sounds like an exclusionistic view - a dogma..
Spealing Welsh or another Gaelic language will not make you a Druid or a superior Druid.
Druidry as any other spiritual path focuses on what is in your mind-set, your soul, your spirit not about the vehicle you use to comunicate that to others.
Before words form in a human's mind and voice box there is pre-verbal language. It is the same for all humans everywhere and can be read by some of us no matter in what language the thought is then verbaly expressed.
(That is what makes it so much fun for me to go for a walk in Chinatown and "listen in"!)

[blackroseivy]

If my memory serves me right, druid tradition was purly oral and when the druids died all knowledge they possessed was lost. Only thing left now is guesses. Everything is now written is English or one of the many contemporary languages in the world. I guess some people are snobs who do not tolerate that others who do not have "their qualifications" can be a druid too from anywhere in the world. The Celtics were nomads and crossed far distance until they reached Europe where they died later. If they could maybe they would have crossed the ocean like the Vikings did and there would be a celtic past here too in America (the continent). Many of these snobs believe that you have to originate from Ireland and speak the languages in order to be druidic or Wiccan.

[RainInanna]

That to me sounds like an exclusionistic view - a dogma..

The idea isn't that "Knowing this language makes you Kemetic", it is that Ancient Egyptian culture includes it's language. It's one important piece of a religion I might have dedicated myself to.

As I said, whether I consider someone Kemetic or not doesn't decide whether Isis/Aset speaks to them. I don't call myself Kemetic because I don't practice the rites or know the language; yet I work with Sekhmet (Ancient Egyptian god). Then again, in Kemeticism if you actively dedicate yourself to it you are a priest. I am not acting as a priest, so I don't call myself Kemetic. To act as a priest I would want to go through the rites and serve true to the Gods as they wish to be served.

Is it snobbish or dogmatic to post my opinion to a thread asking for people's opinions? Not sure. As my sig says, disregard as necessary. I'm not even a Druid. Are Druids always priests and therefore dedicated? Or are their Druid laypeople? Maybe my mistake here is to equate it with Kemeticism when they are very different.

[RainInanna]

I went and pondered this for a few minutes and decided I should apologize for posting here. Although I stand by my opinion in general I'm not a Druid, I'm just interested in Druidry, and thus I realized it was rather stupid of me to argue something I don't even know that much about. I leave the discussion for those of you who are experts.

[Jolixte]

What of honoring one's ancestors at Samhain with at least a few words in their native language?

What about those Druids with no Celtic ancestry?

[Myrddyn Emrys]

All the Christian priests had better learn Aramaic, then.

& how about Egyptian pathers? Better learn Both ANCIENT Egyptian & heiroglyphics...

Danubhe, your own example is a bit faulty there. Catholic Priests DO have to learn Latin, which is the more common base language for the Christian religion. Even many Seminary Schools for the other branches of Chrisitanity have this as a requirement.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

What about those Druids with no Celtic ancestry?

I know of one in particular, He's Japanese and a member of the RDNA. Yet, he is still gaining a working knowledge of a couple of the Celtic Languages to better work with and understand what he is doing.

While doing some Family Tree research with my own ancestry, I was astounded to find connections to Wales, England and even Ireland on my father's side that no one had told us about over the years. You'd be amazed what you find when you look deep into something like that. Without having delved into the statistics of it, this being just my own personal oppinion, I'd hearken to a bet that you'll find that 99% of people with ancestors from Europe in general will find that there's at least one ancestor on the tree somewhere with "celtic" blood.

[Jolixte]

I'd have to learn at least seven languages that I know of off the top of my head in order to honor my ancestors in their own language. :lol: If one is a druid, do they only honor their celtic ancestors then? Are they more important?

[Myrddyn Emrys]

One of the commonality threads that you will find in every Modern Druidic Group and Organization today about Modern Druidism is a want and even a willingness of its members to learn, and a foundation within the Organizations to encourage learning.

Learn what? Whatever you can. This is common within the RDNA, OBOD, BDO, ADF, Keltria, AODA, OMS, and honestly every other group I've encountered.

I'll be blunt. I see the "lack of want" to learn as very "un-Druidic". Again, this is just my oppinion, I'm not stating anything as fact here, just my own viewpoint. Learning promotes growth. Growth (both spiritually and intellectually) combined with Knowledge can promote Wisdom. Who has not heard Druids referred to as "the Wise Ones of the Oaks"?

Am I saying that one needs a complete mastery of all the Celtic Languages or even just one? No, I am not. I'm saying that even a rudimentary knowledge of them is beneficial, and I feel, proper. Have I taken College language courses in Irish or Welsh? No, BUT I am LEARNING as I go, gaining a "working knowledge".

Like I said, this is merely my oppinion and viewpoint.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

I'd have to learn at least seven languages that I know of off the top of my head in order to honor my ancestors in their own language. :lol: If one is a druid, do they only honor their celtic ancestors then? Are they more important?

Like I have stated in other posts, this is just my oppinion.

No, It's a matter of honoring one's "ancestors" in general, as they are your "roots", your lineage. Trees need a stable root system to thrive.

I'd honestly not thought of learning phrases at least to honor the other aspects of my lineage, but I like that idea. I'm going to look into that idea for myself. I don't think you'd need to learn the entire language, but specific phrases to your various ancestry would be cool.

[Faol-chù]

If my memory serves me right, druid tradition was purly oral and when the druids died all knowledge they possessed was lost.

The druids were ONE (very large) part of an entire group of cultures. "Druidic" (for lack of a better word) knowledge is absolutely embedded in the Celtic cultures, and has been transmitted by their languages.


Only thing left now is guesses. Everything is now written is English or one of the many contemporary languages in the world.

And, NO, "everything" about the druids, or FROM the druids is absolutely not "now written in English or one of the many contemporary languages of the world"". Gaelic tradition, alone, just taking into account what is written, has only had a very small part translated into English. That doesn't even take into account what has not yet been recorded in writing, and it certainly does not take into account what has been lost, because people did not 'see the point in learning the language, because, of course, one language is just as good as another' for transmitting information. I'm here to tell you that IT IS NOT!! Something is most definitely lost when a Gaelic story or song is translated to English!


If they could maybe they would have crossed the ocean like the Vikings did and there would be a celtic past here too in America (the continent).

For what it's worth (and not that it's really relevant to this conversation) there is some speculation that Celts may have, in fact made it here 1400 years ago, or better.



Many of these snobs believe that you have to originate from Ireland and speak the languages in order to be druidic or Wiccan.

I can honestly say that I do not know anybody who thinks you have to originate from Ireland in order to be "Wiccan"...
(BTW "Wicca" does not = "Celtic"!)


That to me sounds like an exclusionistic view - a dogma..
Spealing Welsh or another Gaelic language will not make you a Druid or a superior Druid.

Just so you know, "Welsh" is not "another Gaelic Language"...
It is, however, a Celtic language.

The Indo-European Language Family Tree:

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html

[Faol-chù]

I'd have to learn at least seven languages that I know of off the top of my head in order to honor my ancestors in their own language. :lol: If one is a druid, do they only honor their celtic ancestors then? Are they more important?


This is something I've always wondered...


What's the big deal about being a "druid" if one does have a particular interest in Celtic cultures?

[Tadrith]

[1]If my memory serves me right, druid tradition was purly oral and when the druids died all knowledge they possessed was lost. Only thing left now is guesses. [2]Everything is now written is English or one of the many contemporary languages in the world. [3]I guess some people are snobs who do not tolerate that others who do not have "their qualifications" can be a druid too from anywhere in the world. [4]The Celtics were nomads and crossed far distance until they reached Europe where they died later.[5] If they could maybe they would have crossed the ocean like the Vikings did and there would be a celtic past here too in America (the continent). [6]Many of these snobs believe that you have to originate from Ireland and speak the languages in order to be druidic or Wiccan.

Shiza... where to start?
1) Druidic tradition was purely oral. However, some of it was passed on to Culdee/Christian priests. These priests wrote it down in gaelic. These writings are what are translated into english.
2) There are still many volumes yet to be translated. Faol-chu covered this.
3) Are you bitter?
4) The Celts settled down to form many of the major cities that still exist today. Furthermore, they are still alive today and form many important cultures in Welsh, Irish, Scottish, and Brythonic countries.
5) Faol-chu covered this. Much past that the Vikings have here. They settled L'Anse aux Meadows (beautiful place by the way), then abandonned due to tension with the natives. Not much for a 'past'.
6) Are you bitter?


Druidry as any other spiritual path focuses on what is in your mind-set, your soul, your spirit not about the vehicle you use to comunicate that to others.
Before words form in a human's mind and voice box there is pre-verbal language. It is the same for all humans everywhere and can be read by some of us no matter in what language the thought is then verbaly expressed.

Et bien, si j'étais pour te dire que, puisque je parle en français à ce moment, tu ne devrais pas avoir de problème à comprendre ce que je dis. De plus, si tu essayes d'utiliser Babelfish, la translation serais pitoyable et incomplet. Voici un example de l'importance à connaître un language parce que la translation peut bien détruire les structures syntactiques, le message même, et la compréhension du texte non-écrit. Aussi, n'essaye pas de dire "mais je parlais d'une langue verbale." Concernant les druides, seule qui reste sont des textes écrites

[Twig]

Hi Twig,

.....However, we don't always speak to other people in that soul-language nor did our ancestors who we honor. Learning a Celtic language to be a Druid means we honor the culture of Druidry, the ancestors of Druidry, the works of Druidry and the wisdom that is hidden within those languages. One should not ignore the languages that are an essential part ogf Druidry any more than one should attempt to ignor the gods.
Searles O'Dubhain


Greetings my Brother.

Of course you are right. I was speaking tongue in cheek and one of my favorite sayings is "History teaches us we learn nothing from history"after all but, the druid Faith is one that centers on reverance for the Ancestors. As such it is to a druids advantage that they learn the "mother tongue" if at all possible.

Meself? I'm still wrestling with that english language stuff and my job all but requires me to learn spanish if I'm to understand the tenents problems. I'll get to gaelic after that...I promise!

Peace

[Faol-chù]

The Celtics were nomads and crossed far distance until they reached Europe where they died later.


I should have addressed this in my last post...

No, all the Celts did not die. Celtic culture still exists wherever Celtic languages are still spoken in a meaningful way in everyday conversation, and where the stories, which relay the worldview are shared.

[shadar]

I neither agree nor disagree (unfortunately - would have preferred an "other, see below" choice).

Studying a particular (named, dated) Celtic culture is important, including its language. The language in isolation is not sufficient, however.

I don't consider language study to be essential, far less fluency. Desireable, yes, but so are a bunch of other things.

I also don't consider studying some random Celtic language, or studying a modern derivative of the named, dated language to be especially helpful.

Its odd; no-one (I hope) would suggest that studying, say, modern English is a big help for a Norse or Anglo-Saxon recon (just because its a modern development of the 8th to 12th century language they spoke). And yet I often see people suggesting that syudying moden Irish or modern Welsh is both a big help and "essential" for CR, regardless of how similar (or not) the modern language is to the relevant historical language.

Perhaps I can best make this point by quoting a bit of an older Germanic language (describing a ritual). Does knowing English really help you here?

Eode Wealhpeow forð
cwen Hroðgares cynna gemyndig.
grette goldhroden guman on healle
ond þa freolic wif ful gesealde
ærest East-Dena eþelwearde
bæd hine bliðne æt pære beorpege
leodum leofne;

Similarly, for people who read modern Irish or modern Welsh - does it help you understand Gaulish any?
Although I understand your point, I do not agree with it. I agree that basic knowledge and understanding of the Celtic language(s) is assential for a more vivid view of the Celtic cultural studies. The history of word and name are a large part in the studies of the Celts in general, so uderstanding these languages benifits the student quite well.
Fleuency I belive is a good thing if that is your direction of studies, but for history studies, a working knowledge is what you would strive for.

So I agree that one should study the language(s) of the culture that one is looking into. Druids by definition were those teachers.

[Nantonos]

I don't have my books on hand, but I know that they spoke it. I mean, it's illogical NOT to think so. Try being a trading partner with someone who you cannot comminucate to. Try being mercenaries/soldier for an employer if you don't understand his language. I think its obvious that they also spoke greek and latin, but if you require proof (and any smart individual should), I know Peter Berresford Ellis lines out a few in his books on the Celts.

Thanks for the response and clarification. I asked because you might have meant one of two things:

a) they used the greek and latin languages
b) they used the greek and latin alphabets

both are true, but derive from different types of evidence.

There is abundant evidence for Celtic peoples speaking the Greek language, changing to the Latin language in the 50 BCE to 50 CE period. Its also likely that Greekl was used as a lingua franca in other areas (eg Celtiberians used Greek for accounts; and Gaulish mercenaries serving in Ptolomaic Egypt likely used Greek as well).

[KellyP]

This has been an interesting thread and I appreciate all those who chose to offer their opinions. The thread remains open and I encourage anyone finding this thread later to add their voices to the mix.

Looking at the numbers from the poll, a total of 40 people chose to select a response. The responses of Strongly Disagree, Disagree, Neither Agree nor Disagree, Agree, and Strongly Agree were choses 9, 5, 11, 9, and 6 times respectively.

At a casual level of analysis, this means that those which chose to express and opinion of disagreement (Strongly or not) totaled 14 while those expressing agreement totaled 15: nearly identical numbers of only 1 person or 2.5% of the responses separating the two. Even the categories of disagreement (strongly or not) and agreement (strongly or not) did not differ much from those choosing the middle ground: 14 with some form of disagreement, 11 expressing neither agreement nor disagreement, 15 with some form of agreement. Obviously though, most people did choose either a positive or negative response as 11 was the minority.

Somewhat interesting is the comparison between the stronger and weaker opinions on each side of the scale. In the case of those choosing an option of disagreement or strong disagreement we see 14 responses with a clear majority (64.2%) expressing a strong opinion. In contrast, the 15 responses on the other side of the scale expressing either agreement or strong agreement we see an opposite trend of the majority (60%) choosing the weeker opinion. Thus, one might conclude that those who favor a requirement for language study are less fervent in their opinion that those who do not.

Not suprisingly, the stronger expressions of agreement or disagreement (6 and 9 votes) were in the clear minority when compared against those picking the three 'middle ground' options: 15 (27.5%) responses vs 25 (72.5%) responses.

Certainly some fodder for discussion. I hope everyone gained a bit of insight from this information and we shall have discussions on this topic in the future, I am confident.

[odubhain]

The fact that those who agree with the condition is expressed less strongly than those who disagree is more a measure of the emotional quotients involved and not of the actual logical reasons. To assert a positive or to create anything is typically about 4 to 10 times more energy and risk intensive than to express a negative or to destroy/demolish something that has been constructed or created.

The insight that the poll provided to me is that modern society is geared more toward instant and easy solutions than it is toward the more permanent and difficult approaches.

Searles O'Dubhain

[RainInanna]

I wonder how different a response you would receive on a Druid forum. I may be wrong, but I wonder how many of those 40 are actually studying/practicing Druidry. I also wonder how different a response you would receive on a forum that is not Druid specific, but more populated by those who are interested in reconstructionism. Just from my experience here over the years I would guess there is a very low population of those type of Pagans.

[odubhain]

This is very intresting indeed. First off... Which "old" language do you wish to speek? that of the scotts? or the old irish? or maybe go so far back as Ogam? Druids of old spoke many different things depending on where they were from, much like today.Are these questions directed at me? I think that all the various forms of Irish would be sufficient for my purposes. This includes the versions of it spoken by the Scots and the Manx, as well as Old and Middle Irish. Oghamic Irish is the variety that is special to my own chosen path.


I think in any path knowing your back ground is important. I'm glad we have fragments of these old languages to look back on. It is us who keeps it alive, but like people, languages evolve.

I say, Follow your path and stay true to heart. Know your history. Know one's self, one's family, one's gods.
I personally use my native language in spell work, prayer, and every thing else so there is no confusion, at least on my side of the veil. The gods/goddesses dont care which language you speek, its the intent they hear, and intent is universal.Why even speak unless it is in a public or group ritual? Speech differs depending on the realm, world, tradition and working.

Searles O'Dubhain

[KellyP]

To assert a positive or to create anything is typically about 4 to 10 times more energy and risk intensive than to express a negative or to destroy/demolish something that has been constructed or created.

Interesting comment. Is this something you have gathered from experience or is there a basis in social research?

[odubhain]

I wonder how different a response you would receive on a Druid forum. I may be wrong, but I wonder how many of those 40 are actually studying/practicing Druidry. I also wonder how different a response you would receive on a forum that is not Druid specific, but more populated by those who are interested in reconstructionism. Just from my experience here over the years I would guess there is a very low population of those type of Pagans.I'm a person who embraces reconstruction of the traditions (or a synchronization of them to modern times) and I also follow the Druid way. I think a person should understand enough of the language in a tradition to derive intimate and subtle knowledge from it.

Searles O'Dubhain

[KellyP]

I wonder how different a response you would receive on a Druid forum. ... I also wonder how different a response you would receive on a forum that is not Druid specific, but more populated by those who are interested in reconstructionism.

Oh, I completely agree that we should expect to see vast differences across differing populations. Hopefully, my initial summation did not lead anyone to believe I was extending my comments outside of the very limited population of this one poll. All we can do is examine what the results tell us of those people who chose to respond to the poll, nothing further.

If someone cares to gather info from other sources and present them here I would be fascinated to see them!

[KellyP]

I think a person should understand enough of the language in a tradition to derive intimate and subtle knowledge from it.

Excellent! I believe this is a comment I agree with wholeheartedly. For my part I am still working with dictionaries of the old languages (admittedly not the best source) but I find amazing nuances that one may not gain when reading a translation. Also, comparative linguistics has proven quite illuminating. Study is an amazing thing.

[RainInanna]

Hopefully, my initial summation did not lead anyone to believe I was extending my comments outside of the very limited population of this one poll.

Oh not at all. I was just thinking, if this discussion has not come up on the OBOD forums I might try it there to see what the consensus is. Another forum I'm thinking of looking in to see if this has been discussed is The Cauldron (not many Druids so far as I know, but many different recons).