Homework in Pre-school ?!?!

[Zoritsa_Nepenthe]

My sister called me last night frustrated that her 4 yr.old wouldn't sit and do his homework....yep,homework.He had to write some letters and refused to.I tried explaining to her that he's 4...his attention span is short,but she kept telling me that he needed to learn to write them.

What do you all think of pre-schooler's having homework?

My opinion...a bit ridiculous.There is plenty of years ahead for homework and work in general...let kids be kids,especially a FOUR year old.

My four year old isn't in pre-school...and I'm so glad I made that decision.We are working on the alphabet,numbers,colors,shapes,coloring and most everything else he will need to know when he enters the school system...but he's learning at his own pace and we're making it fun.He loves doing his *homework* as he calls it.I'd even consider homeschooling for the next few years,but I'm not sure I could do it...that and even my Mother thinks my son should be in pre-school.

[Lunacie]

My 4-year old granddaughter is in pre-K this year, and neither she or her sister when she was in Pre-K have brought any homework home. There have been some unfinished worksheets that I've tried to get her to work on with me after school. And we use her card games to practice shapes and colors and counting, those are fun of course.

I would guess that your niece's teacher may be frustrated at parents who aren't very involved in their kid's schooling and don't seem to care what they're learning and what they're not learning... so she thought some homework would force the parents to help the little ones. Just a guess...

[Ahautenites]

Tell your sister to be more proactive. She's the parent. She pays for the kid's preschool. It's her right to say the magic word: "No." What's the school going to do? Kick her child out for being a four year old who wants to actually BE a kid?

If the school raises a fuss, slap this article on the desk and leave. http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/10/09/children.play.ap/index.html

[Felidae]

I agree with Ahautenites, and I saw a report on the article she referenced on NBC last night.

I actually remember parts of kindergarten, and the only homework I remember having was bringing a few fall leaves to school for use in some craft project or other.

When my daughter was in kindergarten, same thing. Um, same school, actually. 8O

I can't understand this "rush, rush, rush; push, push, push" lifestyle that's being shoved on kids these days. What are they competing against, other than the crazy schedules?

Heck, there's only so much soccer one can play in one's lifetime! Why start the madness this young?

[WiccanGoddess]

Okay...what is with forcing kids to grow up at the age of 4? C'mon, whatever happened to, "Stay young as long as you can. Don't grow up too quickly". *sigh*

[Ahautenites]

It only happens because people allow it to happen. That's why telemarketing still exists. People allow the telemarketer to get a word in edgewise and they end up buying all kinds of crap they don't need. Just shut the door in someone's face, hang up the phone on people mid-sentence (if you bother to answer the phone at all), and gleefully say no to anyone and anything you don't want. No is a beautiful word, particularly when followed up with a definitive act (slamming door, hanging up phone, yanking child out of school, etc.). Don't be walked all over because it will only allow you to be walked all over by someone else. I learned that, if nothing else, from my time working for Tom Wiens. I should have learned it *while* I was working for him, but after-the-fact is better than not at all.

[DreamSpell333]

My daughter is 4 and not in preschool either. There arent any public preschools,and the ones here seem to cost alot. I ahvent found one that is cheap. The ones i have found you have to make under a certain amount o qualify. My husband was just over,and we cant afford to be paying 125.00 a week for preschool. As far as I know kindergarden is free??
I have found worksheets online for hannah,and she's been alittle interested,but I dont force her. She's had fun with most of the activitys i've found, but her attention span isnt very long right now..
She's at the stage where she's just learning to draw/write her letters. She learnt how to make an A,and can make an H.. So once she learns N, she'll be able to write her name. :) Were goign to learning to write B next, but at her pace...
My mom never sent me to preschool OR kindergarten, so I had to be in what they called Readiness/headstart I belive,and then first grade. I still did well in school though..
I could see if the homework for a preschooler,was to trace a few letters and then color in a photo type activity..something fun..

[WiccanGoddess]

I don't even see the point of preschool. I didn't go, my father didn't go, my mother didn't go, my friends didn't go...why push into school when they're not ready?

[Zoritsa_Nepenthe]

I don't even see the point of preschool. I didn't go, my father didn't go, my mother didn't go, my friends didn't go...why push into school when they're not ready?

I agree.They're pushing kids to learn to read and write so young now.By Kindergarten where I live you should already know your alphabet,colors,numbers 1-30,how to write your name,and your full name,address,and phone number.In fact,I was told by the Kindergarten teacher(when my eldest attended),that the kids who didn't attend preschool,are just holding back the ones who did..holding them back from what?! From getting such a slight advantage that wont mean s&*t when they reach the higher grades? I always thought that it was IN kindergarten where they were suposed to learn SOME of that,along with fine and gross motor skills from cutting,coloring and playing outdoors.Come to think of it...I thought I heard or read somewhere that Kindergarten is still only optional in most states.What happens to those kids whose parents didn't make them attend that?

Oh and DS,the preschool's are insanely priced! I can't imagine paying those fees weekly and having my kid come home crying and stressed because he didn't want to learn to do something their(the school's)way.

[Ceres]

Preschool is all about employing more ECE gradutates :lol: Seriously, the only people who benefit are the teachers and the parents who need babysitting - which is fine, if we are honest thats what its for.

There is not a shred of evidence that children benefit in any meaningful or long lasting by being put in preschool or learning reading or arithmatic sooner.

[Hellenic_Witch]

I don't even see the point of preschool. I didn't go, my father didn't go, my mother didn't go, my friends didn't go...why push into school when they're not ready?

YAY!! We agree! My parents were both public school teachers. But when they decided to have kids, my mom stayed home with us until we were school age. We did not go to preschool, but already knew how to read when we entered kindergarten.

My own children are homeschooled.

[Lunacie]

Preschool is all about employing more ECE gradutates :lol: Seriously, the only people who benefit are the teachers and the parents who need babysitting - which is fine, if we are honest thats what its for.

There is not a shred of evidence that children benefit in any meaningful or long lasting by being put in preschool or learning reading or arithmatic sooner.

The babysitting was a nice bonus I'll admit. :lol:

My oldest granddaughter was so smart and so bored and soooo ready to start school, while her little sister was of two minds whether she enjoyed playing by herself while big sis was in school or whether she wanted to go to school too. I had more time to spend teaching my daughter all the stuff they learn in Pre-K and Kindergarten, and I had more patience back when she was little. I haven't had the time or the patience to work with and teach my grandchildren the same way. And their mommy works which is why they're with me so much of the time.

[wolfjan1]

Homework in pre-school is absurd! Children at that age go to "school" and then come home to their families. My friend picks her child up and and they talk about what she learned that day. She tells her Mommy about what happened and they go on to Mommy and me time. What is wrong with that?
IF you can afford to send your kid to pre-K, you most likely have to go to work to do it. The kids could have homework time at day care. But after a day like that, the child is tired, the Mom is tired and still has more work to do. Give me a break, here. Home work in Pre-K?

[gurlygurl2004]

It does sound quite rediculous. I didn't have homework in Kindergarden. None that I can remember. And I didn't start having huge loads until the 4'th grade.

[WiccanGoddess]

It does sound quite rediculous. I didn't have homework in Kindergarden. None that I can remember. And I didn't start having huge loads until the 4'th grade.

Let's see...a huge load for me during primary school/public school...was about 10-15 minutes, most of the time 5. I didn't get the huge loads until this year, college.

[covenofkeys]

kids in our local schools are set homework from the age of 3 years.

[DreamSpell333]

I agree.They're pushing kids to learn to read and write so young now.By Kindergarten where I live you should already know your alphabet,colors,numbers 1-30,how to write your name,and your full name,address,and phone number.In fact,I was told by the Kindergarten teacher(when my eldest attended),that the kids who didn't attend preschool,are just holding back the ones who did..holding them back from what?! From getting such a slight advantage that wont mean s&*t when they reach the higher grades? I always thought that it was IN kindergarten where they were suposed to learn SOME of that,along with fine and gross motor skills from cutting,coloring and playing outdoors.Come to think of it...I thought I heard or read somewhere that Kindergarten is still only optional in most states.What happens to those kids whose parents didn't make them attend that?

Oh and DS,the preschool's are insanely priced! I can't imagine paying those fees weekly and having my kid come home crying and stressed because he didn't want to learn to do something their(the school's)way.


yes, it is absurd! I'll continue to teach her myself until she is old enough to attend school. I may look into kindergarten come next year,but i am not paying a arm and a leg for it.

[Cat]

That's insane. I'd remove my child from that environment. Even if your nephew has to be in some kind of care during the day, There must be better options out there. Your sister is setting her child up to hate school and resist homework. Four is too young for this.

My child is three and already knows a lot of the stuff someone listed, and she's never been to preschool. Okay, well technically she has but it was more like a mommy and me summer camp and nothing strictly educational went on. She learned it naturally, with me and the rest of the family.

Preschool does help them learn, though, because of all the interaction with their peers. I know one little boy we see in the park has just begun preschool a few weeks ago, and already he's picked up spitting and biting.

[Philosophia]

I never went to kindergarten but I learnt how to write and read at home at a young age. It should really depend on the child because some children love that sort of thing. I know I did when I was a kid.
But I wouldn't push children to do anything that they didn't want to do. Homework shouldn't be allowed in pre-school.

[Sequoia]

kids in our local schools are set homework from the age of 3 years.

Yep, and it's not killing them, is it?

Oh noes, the horrible letter-tracing!! Dear god! Forcing kids to become literate!? Horrors!

Jesus, you guys act like they're making the kids to six hours worth of history reading or something. It's tracing letters. It takes two minutes, and can be made extremely fun.

Sounds like a discipline problem to me.

[covenofkeys]

i do not appreciate your tone at all.
you need to get one thing straight my friend-i posted, as have others.
children do homework at all ages.
here in england, the children usually dont get homework until they are 5, not 3. that is all.

[Sequoia]

:eyebrow:

Hey, I didn't attack you. I just said -- it's tracing letters. This is something parents should be doing at home with their children *anyway*. It's certainly not harmful to take five minutes a day and actually spend it with your child, is it?

Or is it the knowledge that a teacher has to actually ask some parents to spend time educationally with their young children that bothers you so?

[covenofkeys]

and most parents do this anyway. it is our job. at the young age of 3 however, they should be enjoying their childhood-i am perfectly aware of the system of education, and i do teach my child.she is very advanced for her age. as i said-the younger children having homework like this is quite unnecessary and there is plenty of time for homework as such.children are learning all the time-they are like little sponges. some homework is necessary-like reading etc-others is unnecessary, and just wants to preoccupy children when the parents should be doing it.where is their play? where?some of the homeworks which are set in england are unreasonable at best-especcially for a 3 yr old-learning math? no. this is wrong-they should learn counting for example but times tables? i think not. at least not until they go mainstream.
your tone was extremely sarcastic,that is why i commented.

[WiccanGoddess]

Yep, and it's not killing them, is it?
It may not be killing them, but it's taking away precious childhood time. It's taking away the time that a child is allowed to be a kid. You can't expect a kid to grow up at the age of 4. Nor can you at the age of 5. Or six. 7, maturity begins. 10-11, puberty begins. At age 16 to 18, you're still not grown up, but you're growing, coming into yourselves.


It's tracing letters. It takes two minutes, and can be made extremely fun.
It's still homework. My opinion: A kid at the age of 4 should be out having fun, playing with toys. At the age of five, learning the alphabet, learning to spell their names, still, no homework. At the age of 6, coming into the aspect of homework, but nothing more than about thirty minutes worth. Increase the load by 30-45 minutes each grade school year.


I never went to kindergarten but I learnt how to write and read at home at a young age. It should really depend on the child because some children love that sort of thing. I know I did when I was a kid.
But I wouldn't push children to do anything that they didn't want to do. Homework shouldn't be allowed in pre-school.
I agree, MM.


Forcing kids to become literate!?

For a child at the age of four to become literate is quite a rare occurance. Learning to read occurs both in school and at home. Where I live, you don't learn to read until 5 and six. I learned to read at 4, only because my mom read, and I wanted to.

[covenofkeys]

absolutely right WG.

[WiccanGoddess]

Hey, I didn't attack you. I just said -- it's tracing letters. This is something parents should be doing at home with their children *anyway*. It's certainly not harmful to take five minutes a day and actually spend it with your child, is it?

But to spend the time with your child is meant to be bonding. Homework isn't bonding, now is it? Playing in the garden, swining on the sets is bonding. Homework, quite different.


Or is it the knowledge that a teacher has to actually ask some parents to spend time educationally with their young children that bothers you so?

It's the fact that they expect a child to do homework at the age of 4. Homework is meant to be just that: Work at home. A child at the ages of 4 to 5 can't comprehend the term of 'work'. That said, homework is meant to be between the child and the paper. Teachers would prefer a child do their homework on their own, progressing or vice versa, coming into the ability to think for themselves.

[LacyRoze]

My daughter began pre-school this year. No, it's not a babysitter for me. She went because she wanted to and also to allow her to be with children her age. There are no children her age in our neighborhood and well, there's only so long she and her sister can spend together before the squabbling starts, lol. The school she goes to believes in teaching through play. She already knew most basic skills such as counting to 20, saying her alphabet, recognizing her numbers and some letters and writing her name, those are things we worked on at home and that she picked up from watching her older sister do homework. She needed socialization skills. She loves school and her socialization skills have improved as have her manners. She's never had homework and I think giving pre-schoolers homework is ridiculous. Parents should be working with their children anyway, in a way that is fun for them. Sometimes kids just need to be allowed to be kids...

[SSanf]

I am sorry but I do not think pre-school and kindergarten are in any way necessary. If the parents make any effort at all to make friends with other parents, they should be able to find plenty of socialization opportunities.

By first grade kids should know how to count and their letters from their parents. They should also know how to pick up their toys and how to share. You need strangers to teach these basics to your child??? I think not! What the heck do you do during that so called "quality time", anyway? Watch TV with the kids?

We started the first grade at 6 and graduated HS at 18. Yet, after they started all this pre-school and kindergarten, they had to dumb down the SATs just so the kids could pass them. Today, an associates degree is what HS used to be.

Something is very wrong with the system. And, what it is in MHO is that they spend more time on indoctrination and less time on education.

Schools need to get back to plain old discipline and the basic tools of education. Now, I understand that you may not like the idea of disciplining the kids. But, tell you what it worked in the past and it would work again if people would give up the nonsensical idea, that it is bad for children to be made to do what they should do.

Those Catholic schools had some really mean nuns. They also produced some of the most educated and well behaved productive citizens. So, Johnny's little psyche got damaged. Too darned bad. Johnny was educated, employable and able to hold down a job and support his family for more than three months running with his damaged little psyche.

[WiccanGoddess]

I am sorry but I do not think pre-school and kindergarten are in any way necessary.

Okay. But who's to say first grade is where it begins? We've got to start somewhere, don't we?


We started the first grade at 6 and graduated HS at 18. Yet, after they started all this pre-school and kindergarten, they had to dumb down the SATs just so the kids could pass them. Today, an associates degree is what HS used to be.

My relatives started school at 5, graduated 18-19, and then went onto college for 5-6 years. They have yet to dumb down the SATs. That's an opinion, not a fact. As for an associate degree being what high school...please. If that were the case, jobs would have greatly decreased.


Something is very wrong with the system. And, what it is in MHO is that they spend more time on indoctrination and less time on education.

That, and the main focus in many schools is athletics and uniforms.


Schools need to get back to plain old discipline and the basic tools of education. Now, I understand that you may not like the idea of disciplining the kids. But, tell you what it worked in the past and it would work again if people would give up the nonsensical idea, that it is bad for children to be made to do what they should do.


It worked in some instances, but not all. Discipline, I believe, is far separate from education. Discipline may work, and it may not. Children aren't going to do what they're told if they're told it with a rule to the knuckles. They're going to rebel. They're going to do what their told if they are told it calmly.


Those Catholic schools had some really mean nuns. They also produced some of the most educated and well behaved productive citizens. So, Johnny's little psyche got damaged. Too darned bad. Johnny was educated, employable and able to hold down a job and support his family for more than three months running with his damaged little psyche.

I don't believe that has to do with the discipline, but the fundings. Catholic schools recieve far more in education funding than public schools. Also, that said, the Catholic and public schools graduated pretty much the same in the time of my mother, the same amount going to college and holding to a job.

[Lunacie]

1) The OP didn't say her nephew's teacher expected him to do like 15 minutes of homework every evening. He needed a little help working on one thing.

2) I don't see a problem with having a child of 4 go to preschool OR get some help going over their schoolwork from their parent(s) after school. As a parent/grandparent I want to know what my girls are doing in school. I want them to know that I care if they are understanding what they're being taught - and especially if they are having any problems with school.

3) 5 minutes of homework a couple of evenings a week isn't a huge chunk out of a child's playtime, and it can be very enjoyable to do the work with a parent. Maybe 10 minutes of going over the work in Kindergarten, and 15 minutes in 1st grade, and only on the evenings when they need a little help or didn't have time to get their work done in school. Sheesh, it's not stealing their childhood away from them to do that a couple of evenings a week.

4) If the parent is going over the homework with the child and checking it when it's done... then YES, that IS bonding time. Bonding isn't only the fun and games times. It's our children knowing that we are there for them when they need help, knowing that we care, learning that they can be there for us when we need some help as well.

5) Pre-school and Pre-Kindergarten are not madatory or required by the government. If you don't want your child to take part, then don't send them. But why is it necessary to lay a guilt trip on those who choose to send their children to school for half a day at the age of 4 or 5?

My granddaughter plays outside and/or watches PBS or does things on the computer or plays games with me or runs errands with me and her mommy in the morning. Her big sister leaves at 8 am and generally by 9 or 10 am the little one is crying because she wants to go to school and doesn't want to wait until after lunch. Oh we're so mean to her, making her go to school and making her show us her papers when she gets home. :geez:

[covenofkeys]

just out of curiosity, how old are those children in the first grade?

[WiccanGoddess]

1) The OP didn't say her nephew's teacher expected him to do like 15 minutes of homework every evening. He needed a little help working on one thing.


But shouldn't help come from the teachers? That's what they're there for. To educate. The parents are for parenting and handling.


2) I don't see a problem with having a child of 4 go to preschool OR get some help going over their schoolwork from their parent(s) after school. As a parent/grandparent I want to know what my girls are doing in school. I want them to know that I care if they are understanding what they're being taught - and especially if they are having any problems with school.

But isn't schoolwork just that? School work? The teacher is there for a reason, arent they? Knowing what's going on during school doesn't have to be handled through homework. Understanding comes from doing it themselves, doesn't it?


3) 5 minutes of homework a couple of evenings a week isn't a huge chunk out of a child's playtime, and it can be very enjoyable to do the work with a parent. Maybe 10 minutes of going over the work in Kindergarten, and 15 minutes in 1st grade, and only on the evenings when they need a little help or didn't have time to get their work done in school. Sheesh, it's not stealing their childhood away from them to do that a couple of evenings a week.


But it cuts out precious childhood time. Five minutes to a kid is a long time. A parent should be able to play with their children, bond with their children. This, IMO, can't be done through a pencil and paper. Homework, IMO, is a means of separating the kid from the parent.


4) If the parent is going over the homework with the child and checking it when it's done... then YES, that IS bonding time. Bonding isn't only the fun and games times. It's our children knowing that we are there for them when they need help, knowing that we care, learning that they can be there for us when we need some help as well.

Bonding is through communication. If a kid pushes a paper in front of a parent and wants them to check it, communication isn't sought. Answers are sought. The children don't need to be told we are there for them, that we care. They know this through acts of the past. That said, homework is isolation. A child doesn't want it. A parent doesn't want it.


5) Pre-school and Pre-Kindergarten are not madatory or required by the government. If you don't want your child to take part, then don't send them. But why is it necessary to lay a guilt trip on those who choose to send their children to school for half a day at the age of 4 or 5?

It's not about laying a guilt trip. It's about voicing opinions to someone who questioned us.


My granddaughter plays outside and/or watches PBS or does things on the computer or plays games with me or runs errands with me and her mommy in the morning. Her big sister leaves at 8 am and generally by 9 or 10 am the little one is crying because she wants to go to school and doesn't want to wait until after lunch. Oh we're so mean to her, making her go to school and making her show us her papers when she gets home. :geez:

Running errands, playing, and watching PBS is not homework. That is part of being a kid. Homework is part of growing up. It's not about being mean to the child, forcing them into school, but it's about putting them into school too young. I fear it will one day be enforced, pre-K and Pre-S. A kid, IMO, is incapable of understanding the elder concept of homework at the age of 3 and 4.

[WiccanGoddess]

just out of curiosity, how old are those children in the first grade?

Anywhere from 6-8.

[Sequoia]

Five minutes once or twice a week is hardly torture. And it is bonding time, for loving parents. Discipline isn't evil, folks.

Children knowing their numbers and letters at four is rare? Wtf? In the vein of your oh-so-favourite personal experiences, WG, I personally was reading Dr. Seuss by age 2 1/2. I was reading Little House on the Prarie when I was four or five. I went to preschool, where we learned our letters and numbers. But I also had a mother who bothered to read to me and teach me letters and words.

Just because children are young doesn't mean that having them learn is forceful. Why should we instill the idea that school is torturous to little children? Why make such a big deal out of them learning to write their name? Is it really going to corrupt their creativity that much? Are you expecting them to make up their own writing system or something?

Asking a child to learn is hardly asking them to grow up. Adults don't learn nearly as much as children do. Hell, with kids, you can have them play games to learn things like letters and numbers. It's fun. It's older children and adults that instill the idea of school being "not fun". Which is a shameful loss, IMO.

One of the big reasons children get so little out of our educational system these days is the idea that teachers teach everything, and parents don't need to encourage their children. Hours of homework? Yeah, that's no good. But a teensy bit of reinforcement, bringing the parent into the game? What's wrong with that?

Being a parent is not a passive role.

[Sequoia]

Anywhere from 6-8.

Which is also shameful. I started kindergarden at five, and they very nearly didn't let me, because I was "too young"... even though I already knew my letters and numbers.

Kindergarden ought to start at four or five. Teach them while their minds are still like little sponges. And make it easier to catch the poor kids whose parents didn't bother exposing them to literacy.

[SSanf]

My daughter could read quite well by the time she was four. We gave her the books and things but she pretty much had it mastered before we got around to "teaching" her.

But, then, she was also doing the Pythagorean Theorem when she was seven. So, you sure can't go by her.

She was kind of tricky to raise. Knew more than I had ever learned and left me in the dust by age 12. But, she did and does love dumb old Mom, so that helped.

Fortunately, she graduated HS at 16 and was pretty much able to handle her own affairs. That was really lucky since she was a royal pain in the kiester teen.

[WiccanGoddess]

Five minutes once or twice a week is hardly torture. And it is bonding time, for loving parents. Discipline isn't evil, folks.

I disagree on it being discipline. It comes down to personal belief, no facts either way.


Children knowing their numbers and letters at four is rare? Wtf? In the vein of your oh-so-favourite personal experiences, WG, I personally was reading Dr. Seuss by age 2 1/2. I was reading Little House on the Prarie when I was four or five. I went to preschool, where we learned our letters and numbers. But I also had a mother who bothered to read to me and teach me letters and words.

At the age of five, the most they are expected to know is how to speak their native language, if even stuttered, and write their name. Reading by the age of 2 and a half? Okay, fine, but not everyone has that luxary. I learned to read at four, learned to read on "A Cricket in Times' Square". The only reason I learned to read chapter novels by 4 and a half was because my mom read, and I showed an interest. My mother taught me on my own time, when I wanted to be taught.


Just because children are young doesn't mean that having them learn is forceful. Why should we instill the idea that school is torturous to little children? Why make such a big deal out of them learning to write their name? Is it really going to corrupt their creativity that much? Are you expecting them to make up their own writing system or something?

It's forceful when it's not optional or choice. A child needs to be a child. They don't need to grow up at the age of four or five!


Asking a child to learn is hardly asking them to grow up. Adults don't learn nearly as much as children do. Hell, with kids, you can have them play games to learn things like letters and numbers. It's fun. It's older children and adults that instill the idea of school being "not fun". Which is a shameful loss, IMO.

Asking them to come into adultlike terms that is homework is asking them to grow up. IMO. In my cases. I hated school as a child, and loved it more as an older adult. I hated playing games. I hated learning the small stuff. I wanted more, but I knew I was only going to get that at home, and I accepted that.


One of the big reasons children get so little out of our educational system these days is the idea that teachers teach everything, and parents don't need to encourage their children. Hours of homework? Yeah, that's no good. But a teensy bit of reinforcement, bringing the parent into the game? What's wrong with that?

Teachers are meant to teach. Parents are there for reinforcement, but full education. When a parent has to do the homework for the child, or help the child 95-100% on the homework, the teacher isn't doing their job. When did it become about encouragement? A parent can encourage their kid to do homework without doing it for them.


Being a parent is not a passive role.

In your opinion. A parent is a teacher of realit. A teacher is a teacher of education. There's a reason we have teachers. If it were about parents teaching, we wouldn't have schools.

[WiccanGoddess]

Which is also shameful. I started kindergarden at five, and they very nearly didn't let me, because I was "too young"... even though I already knew my letters and numbers.

Six to 8 for first grade is average, even in countries outside of America. Six to eight is, IMO, decent age. I started kindergarten at the late age of five, on account of the birthdate. I think if I had started at four, I would have been thrown off. Thrown into reality too quickly.


Kindergarden ought to start at four or five. Teach them while their minds are still like little sponges. And make it easier to catch the poor kids whose parents didn't bother exposing them to literacy.

At four, they're just coming into understanding their surroundings! How can you expect them to socialize and educate when they're eyes are just being opened to reality?

[covenofkeys]

nobody is saying that they dont enjoy spending time educating their children for 5mins a day or whatever-the age is what matters here.this is obviously different in the UK -i cannot comment on the US education system, but i can comment on the age of children forced to do home work in this country-nor do the teachers/government expect just once/twice per week-its an every day occurrence.i love watching my little girls face light up everytime she learns something new-but i would not expect her to learn her tables{mathematics} at 3yrs of age-no matter if she is advanced or not. children,as we well know are made to grow up too damned fast in this world as it is...so letting them wait one more year, before forcing this learning is not a bad thing. we{the }parents take responsibility for our childrens education-the school merely guides them from a system-we choose where ,when,how, and why and what they learn.
children are young once.my daughter is extremely forward-she leaarned to walk early, talk early,feed herself early.etc-i let her learn at her own pace at the moment-she does not need to be pushed.she is a poilte, sensible and mature girl for her age and i let her ask the questions. i read to her for 20mins a night before bed, we paint, we play,we teach eachother.
i discipline my child using tones-not physical, just voice control.she learns at a different rate than another child the same age.all children are individuals.i will teach my child the necessary things to prepare her for living in this world-lifeskills-something they arent taught in schools-b/c they are too busy saying ''you must learn this'' instead.
i say''all in good time''

[WiccanGoddess]

nobody is saying that they dont enjoy spending time educating their children for 5mins a day or whatever-the age is what matters here.this is obviously different in the UK -i cannot comment on the US education system, but i can comment on the age of children forced to do home work in this country-nor do the teachers/government expect just once/twice per week-its an every day occurrence.i love watching my little girls face light up everytime she learns something new-but i would not expect her to learn her tables{mathematics} at 3yrs of age-no matter if she is advanced or not.

True 'dat.



True, again. IMO.

[quote] we{the }parents take responsibility for our childrens education-the school merely guides them from a system-we choose where ,when,how, and why and what they learn.

Or so we would think.


children are young once.my daughter is extremely forward-she leaarned to walk early, talk early,feed herself early.etc-i let her learn at her own pace at the moment-she does not need to be pushed.she is a poilte, sensible and mature girl for her age and i let her ask the questions. i read to her for 20mins a night before bed, we paint, we play,we teach eachother.

I just want to say, aww. I can't wait until I have kids. ;)


i discipline my child using tones-not physical, just voice control.she learns at a different rate than another child the same age.all children are individuals.i will teach my child the necessary things to prepare her for living in this world-lifeskills-something they arent taught in schools-b/c they are too busy saying ''you must learn this'' instead.
i say''all in good time''

I like your process.

[covenofkeys]

i am very informed in the line of education, and i do know what i am talking about. my process is one of a mother and a teacher.

[WiccanGoddess]

i am very informed in the line of education, and i do know what i am talking about. my process is one of a mother and a teacher.

I see you are informed and know what you are talking about. I never said you didn't. ;)

That said, the process is how it should be, but it's not how it truly is. At least not in America. Perhaps in the UK. I would not know.

A mother can be a teacher. A teacher can't be a mother. (Unless they are actually a mother, but you get what I'm saying. ;) ). A teacher is set through education. A mother is set through morals and values. In my opinon, that is, not set fact in stone. Teachers are paid to teach. Homework that is done by the parent...*sigh*.

[Lunacie]

But shouldn't help come from the teachers? That's what they're there for. To educate. The parents are for parenting and handling. [quote]

Sending a child to school doesn't abrogate the parent's responsibility to make sure they're actually being taught, and understand how to use the things they're being taught.

[quote] But isn't schoolwork just that? School work? The teacher is there for a reason, arent they? Knowing what's going on during school doesn't have to be handled through homework. Understanding comes from doing it themselves, doesn't it?

It can help a great deal to hear something worded a little differently, or to learn that there are other ways of doing the same thing. School teaches children a set curriculem, parents teach the kids to think outside that box.

But it cuts out precious childhood time. Five minutes to a kid is a long time. A parent should be able to play with their children, bond with their children. This, IMO, can't be done through a pencil and paper. Homework, IMO, is a means of separating the kid from the parent.

Parents are the first, and hopefully, best teachers a child will have. They teach the child to pick up their toys and keep their room clean, they teach them to help set the dinner table and clear away the dishes, they teach them all kinds of things and it doesn't cut out any precious childhood time - because it's together time for the child and the parent. Homework should be the same in those first few years. The parent should be sitting there with the child, asking questions, giving directions, talking about the lesson involved. When the child is older they will probably do better doing the work on their own, but the parent should be available to answer questions and to discuss the lesson.

Yes, when I was growing up we kids were expected to do our own homework and it wasn't a sharing or bonding time. But I did it much different when my daughter was in school, and she and I between us work with the older girl on her homework. She's in the 3rd grade and she only has homework when she fooled around and didn't get it finished at school. Her dad is usually here to pick her up when she gets home from school on Friday, and we both look through her Friday Folder to see if there was anything she had trouble with during the week. We're doing the same thing with the little one's folder from Pre-K as well.

Bonding is through communication. If a kid pushes a paper in front of a parent and wants them to check it, communication isn't sought. Answers are sought. The children don't need to be told we are there for them, that we care. They know this through acts of the past. That said, homework is isolation. A child doesn't want it. A parent doesn't want it.

Yes, bonding is through communication. We communicate with the girls when we go over their homework and look through the work and tests they've brought home at the end of the week. Homework doesn't HAVE to be isolation, especially if the child doesn't want it to be.

It's not about laying a guilt trip. It's about voicing opinions to someone who questioned us.

Some of the opinions were that anyone who sent their child to preschool or Pre-K were that children don't need to be in school at that age and that parents who send them are bad parents who are looking for someone else to "babysit" and do what they should be doing themselves.

Running errands, playing, and watching PBS is not homework. That is part of being a kid. Homework is part of growing up. It's not about being mean to the child, forcing them into school, but it's about putting them into school too young. I fear it will one day be enforced, pre-K and Pre-S. A kid, IMO, is incapable of understanding the elder concept of homework at the age of 3 and 4.

Those are "teaching times", the child is learning all the time. And the more the parent is involved in teaching the better. Some children are not ready for school at 4 or 5 or even 6 years of age. Some children ARE ready then. They have "interviews" to see which children are ready and which will benefit from being in school. I was teaching my daughter to write the alphabet at the age of 4. How is that any different from my granddaughter bringing home a page and working with me or her mommy to learn to trace the letters? I think some of you have a bug up your butts about the word "homework."

[covenofkeys]

lol-i know WG- iknow.xx

[WiccanGoddess]

Sending a child to school doesn't abrogate the parent's responsibility to make sure they're actually being taught, and understand how to use the things they're being taught.

The teacher's responsibility is education through numbers and words. The parents is through morals and values. The parent can help with schooling, but it's up to the educational system for numbers and letters to be learned.



It can help a great deal to hear something worded a little differently, or to learn that there are other ways of doing the same thing. School teaches children a set curriculem, parents teach the kids to think outside that box.[/qoute]

Schools teach on a set curriculum, but they also teach outside the box.


[quote]
Parents are the first, and hopefully, best teachers a child will have. They teach the child to pick up their toys and keep their room clean, they teach them to help set the dinner table and clear away the dishes, they teach them all kinds of things and it doesn't cut out any precious childhood time - because it's together time for the child and the parent. Homework should be the same in those first few years. The parent should be sitting there with the child, asking questions, giving directions, talking about the lesson involved. When the child is older they will probably do better doing the work on their own, but the parent should be available to answer questions and to discuss the lesson.

The parent should be there helping them, but the child should learn to figure things out on their own. Answering and discussing questions that relate to the homework is, IMO, different than helping with the homework.


Yes, when I was growing up we kids were expected to do our own homework and it wasn't a sharing or bonding time. But I did it much different when my daughter was in school, and she and I between us work with the older girl on her homework. She's in the 3rd grade and she only has homework when she fooled around and didn't get it finished at school. Her dad is usually here to pick her up when she gets home from school on Friday, and we both look through her Friday Folder to see if there was anything she had trouble with during the week. We're doing the same thing with the little one's folder from Pre-K as well.

I hope that works out for you and your children. (Not meant to be sarcasm, btw.)



Yes, bonding is through communication. We communicate with the girls when we go over their homework and look through the work and tests they've brought home at the end of the week. Homework doesn't HAVE to be isolation, especially if the child doesn't want it to be.

Homework doesn't have to be isolation, but in most cases, it is. Communication to a child is that of playtime and teasetime. Sitting forth with a pencil and paper is often a separatation between childhood and adulthood.



Some of the opinions were that anyone who sent their child to preschool or Pre-K were that children don't need to be in school at that age and that parents who send them are bad parents who are looking for someone else to "babysit" and do what they should be doing themselves.

Well, if I did say something like that, I don't remember saying it, and if I did, I apologize. And I agree with you upon this point. It's not a babysitting service, but some parents look to it as such. Some, but not all.



Those are "teaching times", the child is learning all the time. And the more the parent is involved in teaching the better. Some children are not ready for school at 4 or 5 or even 6 years of age. Some children ARE ready then. They have "interviews" to see which children are ready and which will benefit from being in school. I was teaching my daughter to write the alphabet at the age of 4. How is that any different from my granddaughter bringing home a page and working with me or her mommy to learn to trace the letters? I think some of you have a bug up your butts about the word "homework."

They have interviews? Huh. They didn't when I entered into the schooling system. I took a test. If I could write my name and distinguish the letter E from A, I was in. It's kind of like driver's ed. You get your permit even though you fail the learning system. Same with education. How is your situation different than homework? Because you're taking your time to work with them, not their time. They choose to listen to you, whereas, with homework, they're forced to do it.

I'm sorry if you disagree, but that gives you no no right to tell us we a bug up our butts.

[Lunacie]

I see you are informed and know what you are talking about. I never said you didn't. ;)

That said, the process is how it should be, but it's not how it truly is. At least not in America. Perhaps in the UK. I would not know.

A mother can be a teacher. A teacher can't be a mother. (Unless they are actually a mother, but you get what I'm saying. ;) ). A teacher is set through education. A mother is set through morals and values. In my opinon, that is, not set fact in stone. Teachers are paid to teach. Homework that is done by the parent...*sigh*.

And there's that "bug" I was talking about. No one, including the original poster, said anything about the parents doing the homework for the child. I've said more than once that it's about children doing the homework with parents participation.

You keep saying it's all about opinions, so why does it seem like you're putting so much effort into telling the people who allow their children to go to pre-school or Pre-Kindergarten that their opinion is wrong?

[covenofkeys]

im not sure if thats what she was actually saying. where did she say''your opinions are wrong?''

[WiccanGoddess]

And there's that "bug" I was talking about. No one, including the original poster, said anything about the parents doing the homework for the child. I've said more than once that it's about children doing the homework with parents participation.

Yeah? But it relates to the topic. The topic is homework. Homework, whether done by parents or kid, topic, homework, at the age of preschool.


You keep saying it's all about opinions, so why does it seem like you're putting so much effort into telling the people who allow their children to go to pre-school or Pre-Kindergarten that their opinion is wrong?

I'm not trying to tell people their opinions are wrong. When did I ever once state that? I merely pointed out that I disagree with Preschool and Pre-K, but I have also stated that it comes down to personal choice. I'm putting effort into letting others know that there are varying opinions, henceforth this being a hot topic in today's age.s

[Zoritsa_Nepenthe]

Way to many posts to quote them all,and I agree and disagree with some.My points are: Preschool and Kindergarten are NOT mandatory(Kindergarten in most states is not,some states are mandatory).At 4 years old a child is still learning fine motor skills by coloring,cutting and playing with small objects in order to advance on to writing neatly...and while tracing letters would also help with fine motor skills,forcing one to do that over coloring or playtime is not going to encourage a child to enjoy REAL homework when they are older.

I just don't see the advantage of a child having homework at such a young age.Sure,it may not hurt them....but what is the rush? I mean,does it make that much difference when in first grade most kids will be on the same level anyways?

And I don't knock it that people do place their kids in preschool.Some kids do really well and have fun,and I certainly wouldn't put anyone down because they want their kid to have fun.

[Athena-Nadine]

There is a motion on November's ballot here in CO to make preschool mandatory. :rolleyes:

[Lunacie]

There is a motion on November's ballot here in CO to make preschool mandatory. :rolleyes:

Whoa.

[covenofkeys]

how old is a pre school child in the US?

[Athena-Nadine]

Whoa.
Yeah, I know. I saw one of those stupid election time commercials about it last week, talking about how people who don't send their children to preschool are keeping them from becoming prepared for regular school and are holding all the other children back.

[WiccanGoddess]

how old is a pre school child in the US?

Probably around 3-4 years of age.

[Zoritsa_Nepenthe]

how old is a pre school child in the US?

3-5,depending on when the child turns 5.

[WiccanGoddess]

There is a motion on November's ballot here in CO to make preschool mandatory. :rolleyes:

Whoa. It doesn't effect me, but I figure Louisiana will follow suit with this in the near future, ya know, because there's nothing of more imporatance to place on the ballots.

[covenofkeys]

mmm, interesting.thanks.xx have to say i think that would be a very bad idea for your country/county to pass that law of making it mandatory.

[Athena-Nadine]

All right, I just looked up the Initiative on the ballot. Thankfully, it turns out that it's not to make preschool mandatory (stupid misleading election ads). It is, however, aiming to raise Denver sales tax by 12% in order to generate about $12M to support the Denver preschool program.

http://www.denverdems.org/BallotIssues.Asp


Preschool Tax Increase
A 12-cent sales tax on a $100 purchase to expand access to preschool (the year before kindergarten) for Denver citizens has been referred to the ballot.

This tax would be dedicated to the Denver Preschool Program and raise approximately $12 million per year. The program would be administered by a third-party, non-profit entity overseen by a board to be appointed by the Mayor and City Council, and would be administered with no more than 5% of the total tax revenue. It is estimated that roughly half the tax revenue would be generated by Denver residents’ expenditures on taxable items (groceries and prescription drugs are not taxable), and the balance by taxable business and visitor spending. Progress of the voucher recipients will be tracked, and the tax ends in 2016.

Not the same thing, but a step in that direction, for sure.

[Sequoia]

Many children come to school not even knowing their colours in the US. That is why some folks are suggesting that preschool should be mandatory.

I don't think it should be mandatory at the ages of two or three, but some form of school should come into play at the age of four.

If someone's child is still learning how to grasp small objects at age four... well... *cough* hey, that's what the fat crayons are for, right?

What I fail to see is why you feel that having a child colour in a letter, or trace a letter, is such horrific activity. It doesn't take away from childhood in the least -- unless you're suggesting only adults know how to write?

I think that some of you are so shortly out of school (or perhaps still in it) that you have a personal vendetta against it. The mere word "homework" sends your hackles up. What if we called it something more PC, like "constructive playtime"? Because that's all we're talking about. Using coloured crayons to trace a letter's shape is by no means "homework" in the same way that a term paper is, or even a book report. It's a very simple activity, doesn't take much time, but valuably reinforces what the child learned that day. And moreover, the parent gets to experience their child's learning, instead of simply sending their little one away like a drone each day.

If your homework/parenting experience was that bad, well- all I can say is that I feel sorry for you. Homework can be very fun. Why, when I think of the projects I did in third grade... XD Though not if you go into it thinking of it as "forced" and torturous.

[WiccanGoddess]

All right, I just looked up the Initiative on the ballot. Thankfully, it turns out that it's not to make preschool mandatory (stupid misleading election ads). It is, however, aiming to raise Denver sales tax by 12% in order to generate about $12M to support the Denver preschool program.

http://www.denverdems.org/BallotIssues.Asp



Not the same thing, but a step in that direction, for sure.


Election ads are oft' misleading. *shakes head*

Yes, a step in that direction, I wager.

[WiccanGoddess]

Many children come to school not even knowing their colours in the US. That is why some folks are suggesting that preschool should be mandatory.[/qoute]

Okay. Maybe for some it is an option, but to put it as mandatory just because a few kids don't know their colors? Majority versus minority in this.

[quote]
I don't think it should be mandatory at the ages of two or three, but some form of school should come into play at the age of four.

Some form of schooling does come into play at the age of four: Parental schooling.


If someone's child is still learning how to grasp small objects at age four... well... *cough* hey, that's what the fat crayons are for, right?

Smooth transition into sarcasm, there. *sigh*


What I fail to see is why you feel that having a child colour in a letter, or trace a letter, is such horrific activity. It doesn't take away from childhood in the least -- unless you're suggesting only adults know how to write?

It does take away from childhood. The kid could be out playing in the grass, playing with the parent. Instead, he or she is stuck inside, stuck in a box, doing something that they don't want to do.


I think that some of you are so shortly out of school (or perhaps still in it) that you have a personal vendetta against it.

You doeth assume a lot.

The mere word "homework" sends your hackles up.

Only in terms of a kid growing too quickly.

What if we called it something more PC, like "constructive playtime"?

It would still be a negative effect to some of us. It doesn't matter what you call it.

Because that's all we're talking about. Using coloured crayons to trace a letter's shape is by no means "homework" in the same way that a term paper is, or even a book report. It's a very simple activity, doesn't take much time, but valuably reinforces what the child learned that day. And moreover, the parent gets to experience their child's learning, instead of simply sending their little one away like a drone each day.[/quote

It's not a simple activity. It's a child learning something new, something that, at the age of four, they are just coming into. The parents can experience what their child is learning through the words, "Hey, honey. How was school today? What'd you learn?".

[quote]
If your homework/parenting experience was that bad, well- all I can say is that I feel sorry for you. Homework can be very fun. Why, when I think of the projects I did in third grade... XD Though not if you go into it thinking of it as "forced" and torturous.

Projects of the past aren't the projects of the present. Projects in school now consist of handwritten essays. Yes, essays in the third grade level. Science projects consist of models in exact duplicature of the real life models, along with something written. Homework can be fun if it is permitted, but in this day and age, it is nearing isolation more than fun.

[covenofkeys]

the words; ''constructive playtime'' would be fine, up until the point where you are making a small child sit and concerntrate for half an hour or even 5 mins on the subject of math for instance. it has alot to do with at what age they are expected to kinow/learn these things-dont get me wrong-nothing wrong with children who are young learning their 123-ABC's-you can allow play in that-not so much with times tables in math-at 3/4 yrs.-most kids have very little concerntration until they are 6/7,
some homework is totally unnecessary in my view.
kids learn at their own pace-no matter how we force them. but yes,kids should be allowed to be kids too.
pile them with the homework later, but let them learn to be a child first.
its hard enough when youre 3/4!

[Marcasite]

The only problem I see with assigning homework to really small kids is that it takes the joy out of learning and turns it into something forced. I think kids at 3 or so should only be tracing numbers if they really want to. There's plenty of opportunity to learn at home spontaneously without having to do letter-tracing sheets every day. I didn't learn to read until 6 and I turned out okay. It's not like putting off homework until 1st grade or not putting kids in pre-school is going to damage them!

[Sequoia]

Okay. Maybe for some it is an option, but to put it as mandatory just because a few kids don't know their colors? Majority versus minority in this.

Some people teach their kids all they feel they need to know by age ten and wish the kids could get jobs. Isn't it horrible that school in general is mandatory and kids can't work?

Some form of schooling does come into play at the age of four: Parental schooling.

But not with all parents, and not at the same level. Many children enter school completely unprepared.

Smooth transition into sarcasm, there. *sigh*

I was being serious. You know, the fat crayons that toddlers use?

It does take away from childhood. The kid could be out playing in the grass, playing with the parent. Instead, he or she is stuck inside, stuck in a box, doing something that they don't want to do.

What if the child enjoys tracing with crayons? You assume an incredible amount that all children innately hate anything academic.

You doeth assume a lot.

Yeah, ditto.

Only in terms of a kid growing too quickly.

Oh god, they have to write their name. What is the world coming to? It's like we're forcing them to work in factories at the age of six!

It would still be a negative effect to some of us. It doesn't matter what you call it.

"Some of us" being you. You've repeatedly stated that you personally had a rotten experience throughout school. And from your personal accounts, your school hardly seems "normal", certainly not what I've seen in several states with several families. But never mind, facts are irrelevent, right?

It's not a simple activity. It's a child learning something new, something that, at the age of four, they are just coming into.

Yes, it's a kid learning something new. Letters are a wonderful thing to learn. They open up an entire new world. I'm glad you agree.

The parents can experience what their child is learning through the words, "Hey, honey. How was school today? What'd you learn?".

But WG, that would be forcing the child to recall something! Isn't that just as aweful?

/sarcasm

Projects of the past aren't the projects of the present. Projects in school now consist of handwritten essays. Yes, essays in the third grade level. Science projects consist of models in exact duplicature of the real life models, along with something written. Homework can be fun if it is permitted, but in this day and age, it is nearing isolation more than fun.

Don't give me that "These days" crap, WG. I'm just slightly older than you (the difference between us being that I grew up in an abusive household and was pretty much living by myself at 16, supporting myself completely at 18, and now taking care of my mini-family). I've done my share of book reports and history reports, the "essays" of which you speak. I might point out that usually they want them typed, "these days". Which is a valuable skill unto itself.

Models? The horror. I made a model of a California mission in fourth grade. Had to be damn accurate, too. God, the pine needles of the little branches I used to replicate trees stabbed my stubby little fingers. It was like watching a Hitchcock movie. And to think, all the kids had to make accurate models of specific missions. It's a wonder any of us survived for 5th grade. :eyebrow:

In fifth grade, we were forced to experiment with various textures and substances, and record our observations using the scientific method. Cornstarch and water... we nearly didn't make it out. Our hands could have been stuck beneath the sold-liquid state material for good.

And don't even get me started on the chicken mummification that our 6th grade science/history lessons included. Animal sacrifices in the school!! :awilly:

You want torture? Having to watch "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" during Ocean Week. That was pure torture. Death by boredom. :lol:

[covenofkeys]

quote ''its like we're forcing them to work in factories...etc''


#sings# ''we dont need no education!......just another brick in the wall!''

[Ceres]

The only problem I see with assigning homework to really small kids is that it takes the joy out of learning and turns it into something forced. I think kids at 3 or so should only be tracing numbers if they really want to. There's plenty of opportunity to learn at home spontaneously without having to do letter-tracing sheets every day. I didn't learn to read until 6 and I turned out okay. It's not like putting off homework until 1st grade or not putting kids in pre-school is going to damage them!

_handclapp The behavioral modification method of education teaches parrot learning. Or perhaps sheep is a better species to describe it. In any case, it shouldnt be what any thinking parent wants for their kid.

[Ceres]

What if we called it something more PC, like "constructive playtime"? Because that's all we're talking about.

Nothing sucks the joy out of a great game like an adult trying to manipulate it to teach something.

[Lunacie]

The only problem I see with assigning homework to really small kids is that it takes the joy out of learning and turns it into something forced. I think kids at 3 or so should only be tracing numbers if they really want to. There's plenty of opportunity to learn at home spontaneously without having to do letter-tracing sheets every day. I didn't learn to read until 6 and I turned out okay. It's not like putting off homework until 1st grade or not putting kids in pre-school is going to damage them!

I went to Kindergarten when I was 4 years old and was reading my older brother's books when I was in 1st grade. Some days I colored a picture with my stubby little crayons, some days I cut out shapes with my stubby little scissors, some days I finger painted with my stubby little fingers, some days I learned to measure things...

I really don't remember being forced to do letter-trading sheets every day. I got to play outside at recess. I got to have a snack and a carton of milk. I got to lay my head down and be quiet for a few minutes. I got to listen to music and then draw a picture of whatever the music made me think of. I got to ride on the firetruck and ring the bell. I got to go to the pumpkin patch. I learned to do up a zipper and tie my shoes and sing a song in rhythm and in tune with others. I got to play in the pretend kitchen.

And you know what? I don't think any of that damaged me either. :)

[WiccanGoddess]

Some people teach their kids all they feel they need to know by age ten and wish the kids could get jobs. Isn't it horrible that school in general is mandatory and kids can't work?

Kids shouldn't have to work. The key term is 'kid'. Childhood.



But not with all parents, and not at the same level. Many children enter school completely unprepared.

But you can't expect a kid to enter school with all the knowledge in the world, and that's what it is coming down to.



I was being serious. You know, the fat crayons that toddlers use?

No, I have no clue what you are talking about.



What if the child enjoys tracing with crayons? You assume an incredible amount that all children innately hate anything academic.

And you assume an incredible amount that all children love academics. It goes both ways. That said, a kid likes doing what they want to, not what they are told to do. Some kids, I correct.





Oh god, they have to write their name. What is the world coming to? It's like we're forcing them to work in factories at the age of six!


Because that's a logical relation.


"Some of us" being you. You've repeatedly stated that you personally had a rotten experience throughout school. And from your personal accounts, your school hardly seems "normal", certainly not what I've seen in several states with several families. But never mind, facts are irrelevent, right?

Holy shit, Sequoia, let's not make this a battle of the minds. Quit with that, every thread you post in, you antagonize. Yes, it's my opinion. But there is a 'some of us' and a 'some of them'. Yes, it's based upon personal accounts. That's all you have. No two families have the exact same experience in schooling and age of schooling. Just because you've seen differently doesn't make it rightfully so throughout families. What you see as normal is not going to be seen as normal with everyone. But, of course, only your accounts are valid.



Yes, it's a kid learning something new. Letters are a wonderful thing to learn. They open up an entire new world. I'm glad you agree.

Letters and numbers far from writing and socializing.





Don't give me that "These days" crap, WG. I'm just slightly older than you (the difference between us being that I grew up in an abusive household and was pretty much living by myself at 16, supporting myself completely at 18, and now taking care of my mini-family). I've done my share of book reports and history reports, the "essays" of which you speak. I might point out that usually they want them typed, "these days". Which is a valuable skill unto itself.

Typed? No, not in all instances. Some want them handwritten, rough drafts included. Okay, so you grew up in an atmosphere where you had to grow quickly. I'm sorry for that, but that doesn't effect this situation. It effects your outlook, but nooneelse's. That, and typing, doesn't have to be a valuable skill. In fact, I see it as an unneccessary. They lived without computers before. Why not now, again?


Models? The horror. I made a model of a California mission in fourth grade. Had to be damn accurate, too. God, the pine needles of the little branches I used to replicate trees stabbed my stubby little fingers. It was like watching a Hitchcock movie. And to think, all the kids had to make accurate models of specific missions. It's a wonder any of us survived for 5th grade. :eyebrow:

Must you place sarcasm in everything? Models of the human brain at the age of 8? Models of the brain to pinpoint accuracy at the age of 8? At the age of 8 where children are just coming into understanding accuracy and models? Give them time. Not everyone learns on the same level. Take it slow. Let the kids grow. My goodness.

In fifth grade, we were forced to experiment with various textures and substances, and record our observations using the scientific method. Cornstarch and water... we nearly didn't make it out. Our hands could have been stuck beneath the sold-liquid state material for good.


And don't even get me started on the chicken mummification that our 6th grade science/history lessons included. Animal sacrifices in the school!! :awilly:

That is a topic of a whole different level. Science in sixth grade , mummification, is far different than mummification in 3rd grade. Sixth grade is about growing. Third grade is about going.


You want torture? Having to watch "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" during Ocean Week. That was pure torture. Death by boredom. :lol:

Hey, I like that movie! ;)

[WiccanGoddess]

The only problem I see with assigning homework to really small kids is that it takes the joy out of learning and turns it into something forced. I think kids at 3 or so should only be tracing numbers if they really want to. There's plenty of opportunity to learn at home spontaneously without having to do letter-tracing sheets every day. I didn't learn to read until 6 and I turned out okay. It's not like putting off homework until 1st grade or not putting kids in pre-school is going to damage them!

I've given you karma for your well written words. Wow.

[Lunacie]

Nothing sucks the joy out of a great game like an adult trying to manipulate it to teach something.

That depends in great part on the adult and how well they interact (or play) with the child.

We're talking about a kid going to school for 3 hours a day, for 4 days a week. We're not talking about taking away their childhood and forcing them to grow up too soon. The best lessons we teach our children are learned while they're having fun... like singing "This is the way we set the table... pick up toys... make our bed... comb our hair... tie our shoes... color the paper..."

[WiccanGoddess]

I went to Kindergarten when I was 4 years old and was reading my older brother's books when I was in 1st grade. Some days I colored a picture with my stubby little crayons, some days I cut out shapes with my stubby little scissors, some days I finger painted with my stubby little fingers, some days I learned to measure things...

The difference with that and homework is that it is classwork. You learned in class as you should have.


I really don't remember being forced to do letter-trading sheets every day. I got to play outside at recess. I got to have a snack and a carton of milk. I got to lay my head down and be quiet for a few minutes. I got to listen to music and then draw a picture of whatever the music made me think of. I got to ride on the firetruck and ring the bell. I got to go to the pumpkin patch. I learned to do up a zipper and tie my shoes and sing a song in rhythm and in tune with others. I got to play in the pretend kitchen.

In some schools, they're taking away nap time. Taking away snack time, allowing only lunch. Taking away recess, replacing it with bookwork. Maybe you weren't forced to do letter-tracing sheets, but homework is a mandatory, you either do it or you don't. My kindergarten years were spent learning to write words, count to 100, and socialize, enter into the socializing atmosphere, at a slow rate. We learned, but were also allowed to be kids. Kids don't have that anymore.

[WiccanGoddess]

We're talking about a kid going to school for 3 hours a day, for 4 days a week. We're not talking about taking away their childhood and forcing them to grow up too soon. The best lessons we teach our children are learned while they're having fun... like singing "This is the way we set the table... pick up toys... make our bed... comb our hair... tie our shoes... color the paper..."

Three hours a day? Four days a week? Last I checked, school was 7 days a week, 5-7 hours a day. Kindergarten and preschool included. We are talking about taking their childhood away. We're putting them into an unknown atmosphere where they're not allowed to be themselves. WE are talking about forcing them to grow up too soon. We're taking them out of an atmosphere they know and tossing them into a factory, to say the least, where they have to do work that they just aren't used to. The best lessons are learned while having fun, but homework, not so much fun when you're 4 and you'd rather go about running the field of daisies.

[Lunacie]

The difference with that and homework is that it is classwork. You learned in class as you should have.



In some schools, they're taking away nap time. Taking away snack time, allowing only lunch. Taking away recess, replacing it with bookwork. Maybe you weren't forced to do letter-tracing sheets, but homework is a mandatory, you either do it or you don't. My kindergarten years were spent learning to write words, count to 100, and socialize, enter into the socializing atmosphere, at a slow rate. We learned, but were also allowed to be kids. Kids don't have that anymore.

Again, my granddaughter (who lives with me) is in Pre-K this year, and I don't see it being any more a Stalingrad than it was when I went to Kindergarten. And she gets all kinds of play time when she's at home. The only regular chores she has is to pick up her toys and feed the dog. Kids haven't always been allowed the luxury of being kids until they were 5, that's a fairly new phenomonen I think.

[Ceres]

That depends in great part on the adult and how well they interact (or play) with the child.

We're talking about a kid going to school for 3 hours a day, for 4 days a week. We're not talking about taking away their childhood and forcing them to grow up too soon. The best lessons we teach our children are learned while they're having fun... like singing "This is the way we set the table... pick up toys... make our bed... comb our hair... tie our shoes... color the paper..."


My kids enjoy that kind of interaction with me; what they hate is when I try to manipulate a game into something else for my own nefarious purposes :lol:
And they ALWAYS know.

[WiccanGoddess]

Again, my granddaughter (who lives with me) is in Pre-K this year, and I don't see it being any more a Stalingrad than it was when I went to Kindergarten. And she gets all kinds of play time when she's at home. The only regular chores she has is to pick up her toys and feed the dog. Kids haven't always been allowed the luxury of being kids until they were 5, that's a fairly new phenomonen I think.

Kids were always allowed the luxary of being a kid. They were given a time of 'lecture' and then a time of 'play'. Now it's all about the time of 'lecture'. The time of play consisting of a bathroom break. Being a kid until it was time to grow up, and that varied from kid to kid, but you're only young once, and that is being ignored. You can't go back and change the past. You can't grow up and then go back and grow down.

They don't even have chores anymore. They have tasks. Workloads. Workforces. Terms that apply to teenagers and adults, not kids.

[Sequoia]

The difference with that and homework is that it is classwork. You learned in class as you should have.

Because we all know learning stops outside of school.

In some schools, they're taking away nap time. Taking away snack time, allowing only lunch. Taking away recess, replacing it with bookwork. Maybe you weren't forced to do letter-tracing sheets, but homework is a mandatory, you either do it or you don't. My kindergarten years were spent learning to write words, count to 100, and socialize, enter into the socializing atmosphere, at a slow rate. We learned, but were also allowed to be kids. Kids don't have that anymore.

And where is your proof of that? I happen to personally know a pre-k teacher. Her kids take naps. I remember, just a handful of years ago (3 or so) when the girl I take care of went to kindergarden -- it didn't even last long enough for them to need naps. They were home by noon or so.

You make sweeping, generalized statements. Just as you wish to admonish me for having a different experience, so must you understand that your experience isn't necessarily what other people go through. The difference here being that I've actually researched and experienced what I'm talking about, here.

If you want to say that kindergarden is turning into a nazi-like academic hellhole, provide us a little proof of that.

Learning to write does NOT force a child to grow up "too fast". Learning the alphabet is NOT going to take away their childhood.

Learning the alphabet and how to write is part of childhood, for heaven's sakes. Have you ever met anyone who tried to learn that as an adult? It's hard as hell!

Perhaps children shouldn't begin school until puberty. But then, they become unruly and disfocused. Perhaps schooling shouldn't begin until kids are 20. And that'd give them plenty of time for childhood.

By the way... if you're going to argue that computers aren't a necessary skill in this modern world, please don't do it while typing.

People got along without computer skills before because computers weren't so integral (if they existed at all) in people's lives before the late 90's. Nowadays, they're everywhere. One is at a serious disadvantage if one graduates high school without knowing how to type and simple point-click skills.

[Lunacie]

Three hours a day? Four days a week? Last I checked, school was 7 days a week, 5-7 hours a day. Kindergarten and preschool included. We are talking about taking their childhood away. We're putting them into an unknown atmosphere where they're not allowed to be themselves. WE are talking about forcing them to grow up too soon. We're taking them out of an atmosphere they know and tossing them into a factory, to say the least, where they have to do work that they just aren't used to. The best lessons are learned while having fun, but homework, not so much fun when you're 4 and you'd rather go about running the field of daisies.

Damn girl, where did you go to school? :huh: I never in my whole life went more than 5 days a week, neither did my daughter, and neither do my grandchildren. When my oldest granddaughter went to Pre-K it was only half-a-day but it was 5 days a week. We're in a different district in a different town now and Pre-K is only half a day 4 days a week. Kindergarten is often either half a day, or else a full day but only 4 days a week. I thought this whole thread was based on a complaint about homework for a Pre-schooler?

My granddaughter has the whole morning Monday thru Thursday and the whole day Friday thru Sunday to do all the running and playing her little heart desires. She wants to go to school and doesn't like not being allowed to go on Friday (and other school holidays). We've visited with her teacher and her teacher is going to make a visit to our home later this month. She is not running a factory, and she does allow and encourage the children to develop their own personalities at the same time they are learning some really exciting and interesting things.

[Lunacie]

My kids enjoy that kind of interaction with me; what they hate is when I try to manipulate a game into something else for my own nefarious purposes :lol:
And they ALWAYS know.

Yes, and there are certainly some teacher who are like that, and some teachers who are able to make learning fun and enjoyable.

[covenofkeys]

#quote# WG-''you cant grow up,and then go back and grow down''

absolutely right----- one chance at childhood

[WiccanGoddess]

Damn girl, where did you go to school? :huh: I never in my whole life went more than 5 days a week, neither did my daughter, and neither do my grandchildren. When my oldest granddaughter went to Pre-K it was only half-a-day but it was 5 days a week. We're in a different district in a different town now and Pre-K is only half a day 4 days a week. Kindergarten is often either half a day, or else a full day but only 4 days a week. I thought this whole thread was based on a complaint about homework for a Pre-schooler?


7 days a week, all week, 145 something days a year. 7 hours a day, forgot to add that. Common throughout Louisiana, Florida, and Illinois.


My granddaughter has the whole morning Monday thru Thursday and the whole day Friday thru Sunday to do all the running and playing her little heart desires. She wants to go to school and doesn't like not being allowed to go on Friday (and other school holidays). We've visited with her teacher and her teacher is going to make a visit to our home later this month. She is not running a factory, and she does allow and encourage the children to develop their own personalities at the same time they are learning some really exciting and interesting things.

But some kids don't want to go to school. That said, why should preschool be mandated because of a minority vote?

[Ceres]

And futhermore, there is no evidence that an earlier start benefits kids in the long run. An earlier reader doesnt read more, an earlier mathmatician doesnt become a whiz in math. So we start earlier, it takes longer and there is no real benefit. Hmm. Lot of jobs are created in the process though......

[WiccanGoddess]

Because we all know learning stops outside of school.

Educational learning stops after school. Motivational learning continues on.



And where is your proof of that? I happen to personally know a pre-k teacher. Her kids take naps. I remember, just a handful of years ago (3 or so) when the girl I take care of went to kindergarden -- it didn't even last long enough for them to need naps. They were home by noon or so.

The proof of my mother, father, uncle, cousin, and friends. Chicago, Orlanod, and Lake Charles, Louisiana. 7 days a week, 6-7 hours a day, 145 something days a year. You know one pre-k teacher. That doesn't mandate all.


You make sweeping, generalized statements. Just as you wish to admonish me for having a different experience, so must you understand that your experience isn't necessarily what other people go through. The difference here being that I've actually researched and experienced what I'm talking about, here.

Oh, so only your experiences count. I see. I see. You make generalized statements, too, Sequoia. Always have, always will. You must understand that your experience, too, isn't neccessarily what other people go through. It goes both effin' ways.


If you want to say that kindergarden is turning into a nazi-like academic hellhole, provide us a little proof of that.

How about the proof that kids are forced into uniforms, forced to wear an ID tag, and forced awake at 6 in the morning, to leave, hit school, and become in lockdown, not allowed in unless they adhere to mandations?


Learning to write does NOT force a child to grow up "too fast". Learning the alphabet is NOT going to take away their childhood.

Learning adult terms is a means of growing up too fast. Learning to multiply at the age of 5? I'm sorry, but that's irresponsible. The kid is just coming into numbers and letters and math. I never said it was about learning to write or learning the alphabet (yet, again, you twist my words. STOP.). It's the fact that they expect these kids to come into education knowing things that are almost impossible. They go to school to learn. What more do you want?


Learning the alphabet and how to write is part of childhood, for heaven's sakes. Have you ever met anyone who tried to learn that as an adult? It's hard as hell!

It's a part of adolesence. Childhood is the age from 2-4. Adolesence is the age from 5-7. So on and so forth.


Perhaps children shouldn't begin school until puberty. But then, they become unruly and disfocused. Perhaps schooling shouldn't begin until kids are 20. And that'd give them plenty of time for childhood.

Childhoo is the age from 2-4, based upon psychological studies.

By the way... if you're going to argue that computers aren't a necessary skill in this modern world, please don't do it while typing.

[qoute]
People got along without computer skills before because computers weren't so integral (if they existed at all) in people's lives before the late 90's. Nowadays, they're everywhere. One is at a serious disadvantage if one graduates high school without knowing how to type and simple point-click skills.[/quote]

Computers aren't everywhere. The computer is only integral if you let it be.

[WiccanGoddess]

And futhermore, there is no evidence that an earlier start benefits kids in the long run. An earlier reader doesnt read more, an earlier mathmatician doesnt become a whiz in math. So we start earlier, it takes longer and there is no real benefit. Hmm. Lot of jobs are created in the process though......

I agree with you, but would like to comment on the bold. Some early readers do read more. I know I did. I read two books a day when the kids in my class read one a week. But you're right, it's not like that with everyone.

[Ceres]

Yes, and there are certainly some teacher who are like that, and some teachers who are able to make learning fun and enjoyable.

I think you are misunderstanding me. There are lots of teachers who think they are making learning fun through manipulation techniques coated in sugar, but in fact the kids always know when they are being manipulated. The ones with more moxy are the ones like the boy who started this thread by refusing to do his preschool homework. Some will go along with the flow as long as the rewards for doing so are adequete and others actually just like being parrots and sheep.
That said, I agree that there are teachers who genuinely like kids and can connect with them in a way that facilitates real learning, but they are the exception rather than the rule, not because all teachers are bad, but because most dont have the time to spend on that.

[covenofkeys]

_handclapp

[Athena-Nadine]

Damn girl, where did you go to school? :huh: I never in my whole life went more than 5 days a week, neither did my daughter, and neither do my grandchildren. When my oldest granddaughter went to Pre-K it was only half-a-day but it was 5 days a week. We're in a different district in a different town now and Pre-K is only half a day 4 days a week. Kindergarten is often either half a day, or else a full day but only 4 days a week. I thought this whole thread was based on a complaint about homework for a Pre-schooler?

My granddaughter has the whole morning Monday thru Thursday and the whole day Friday thru Sunday to do all the running and playing her little heart desires. She wants to go to school and doesn't like not being allowed to go on Friday (and other school holidays). We've visited with her teacher and her teacher is going to make a visit to our home later this month. She is not running a factory, and she does allow and encourage the children to develop their own personalities at the same time they are learning some really exciting and interesting things.

In NYC and in CO, preschool is only a couple of hours a day, 3-4 days a week. The children are home by noon. Many kindergartens are the same way. It's often not until they get into 1st grade that they are in school until 3:00. None of them go to school 7 days a week, not even the children here, in CO, who are "On Track," which means they go to school year round with breaks every few weeks instead of going for months straight with a two-three month break in the summer. None of the schools have normal weekend classes for all children. The most you will see is the extracurricular classes designed to aid students having trouble, and none of those at such a young age.

[Ceres]

I agree with you, but would like to comment on the bold. Some early readers do read more. I know I did. I read two books a day when the kids in my class read one a week. But you're right, it's not like that with everyone.


Absolutely, my daughter didnt teach herself to read till she was 8 and she is an insatiable reader now at 12. What I am saying is that being an early reader has less to do with it than the people who run the early reading programs think and would lead us to believe as well.

[WiccanGoddess]

In NYC and in CO, preschool is only a couple of hours a day, 3-4 days a week. The children are home by noon. Many kindergartens are the same way. It's often not until they get into 1st grade that they are in school until 3:00. None of them go to school 7 days a week, not even the children here, in CO, who are "On Track," which means they go to school year round with breaks every few weeks instead of going for months straight with a two-three month break in the summer. None of the schools have normal weekend classes for all children. The most you will see is the extracurricular classes designed to aid students having trouble, and none of those at such a young age.

Just because it occurs in one city doesn't mean it's the same everywhere. In the parishes of Louisiana, children go to school from 8 a.m. until 3-4 p.m. They go to school Monday through Friday. They have Christmas, Easter, Mardi Gras, and a few lesser holidays off. But other than that, they have around 145-160 full days of school. I wish it were lesser, as it would have provided to easier transport at my younger years, but it wasn't. During the summer? We got June, July, and part of August off. Part of May, too, so technically, three months. We'd start August 16, and go until May 31.

In kindergarten, too. Preschool, also. Some preschools start later and end later, but it's still a 6-7 hour 'workday'.

[Athena-Nadine]

7 days a week, all week, 145 something days a year. 7 hours a day, forgot to add that. Common throughout Louisiana, Florida, and Illinois.

Interesting. I'm not saying it's not true, but my sister lives in Chicago and none of her three children go to school 7 days a week. They are all in public school and go 5 days a week.

[Athena-Nadine]

Just because it occurs in one city doesn't mean it's the same everywhere. In the parishes of Louisiana, children go to school from 8 a.m. until 3-4 p.m. They go to school Monday through Friday. They have Christmas, Easter, Mardi Gras, and a few lesser holidays off. But other than that, they have around 145-160 full days of school. I wish it were lesser, as it would have provided to easier transport at my younger years, but it wasn't. During the summer? We got June, July, and part of August off. Part of May, too, so technically, three months. We'd start August 16, and go until May 31.

In kindergarten, too. Preschool, also. Some preschools start later and end later, but it's still a 6-7 hour 'workday'.
I never said it did. That is why I specified the cities/states instead of just generalizing. I can only speak to what I know and I don't presume otherwise.

[WiccanGoddess]

Interesting. I'm not saying it's not true, but my sister lives in Chicago and none of her three children go to school 7 days a week. They are all in public school and go 5 days a week.

What part of Chicago? My cousin attends a school on the 'outskirts'. My mother attended a school that no longer exists. And my father lived just outside of Chicago in Skokie. Perhaps the 7 day school week doesn't exist in all of Chicago?

[WiccanGoddess]

I never said it did. That is why I specified the cities/states instead of just generalizing. I can only speak to what I know and I don't presume otherwise.

I know. I was just putting it out there.

[Athena-Nadine]

What part of Chicago? My cousin attends a school on the 'outskirts'. My mother attended a school that no longer exists. And my father lived just outside of Chicago in Skokie. Perhaps the 7 day school week doesn't exist in all of Chicago?
I don't know. It could be. They originally lived in Chicago, then in Lansing, and now are temporarily in a different school district (staying with friends because they sold their condo) until their new house is finished at the end of this month. I can't remember the name of the town they will then be living in, but I know it's a suburb of Chicago and not in the city itself.

[LacyRoze]

As to school being 7 days a week, not in Arkansas and not in Pensacola, Florida. Some places may have it sure but not everywhere does. Pre-school in Arkansas, where I live, is half a day, Mon-Fri. Here where I live pre-school and kindergarten still have recess, twice a day a might add, naps, snacks and plenty of free time to draw, color, read, etc. Where you attended school may have been a "nazi factory" but not everywhere is that way.. I see way too many blanket generalizations being made here...

[WiccanGoddess]

As to school being 7 days a week, not in Arkansas and not in Pensacola, Florida. Some places may have it sure but not everywhere does. Pre-school in Arkansas, where I live, is half a day, Mon-Fri. Here where I live pre-school and kindergarten still have recess, twice a day a might add, naps, snacks and plenty of free time to draw, color, read, etc. Where you attended school may have been a "nazi factory" but not everywhere is that way.. I see way too many blanket generalizations being made here...

Exactly, to the first bolded, and to the second. To the italics: What of those who generalize the 'snacktime/naptime' part of school? Same boat, different view, but same generalizing. But, I guess, as it stands with some people, it's okay to generalize if it's in favor to themselves. It doesn't count either way, to generalize. It either is or isn't, and in this case, it isn't. There's no substantial proof either way. It varies from person to person, city to city, state to state.

[MysticWitch]

Okay...what is with forcing kids to grow up at the age of 4? C'mon, whatever happened to, "Stay young as long as you can. Don't grow up too quickly". *sigh*

I think its because they dont want kids growing up dumb.. or um.. er... something like that :D Nah. Im not dumb. Im special :)

[LacyRoze]

Exactly, to the first bolded, and to the second. To the italics: What of those who generalize the 'snacktime/naptime' part of school? Same boat, different view, but same generalizing. But, I guess, as it stands with some people, it's okay to generalize if it's in favor to themselves. It doesn't count either way, to generalize. It either is or isn't, and in this case, it isn't. There's no substantial proof either way. It varies from person to person, city to city, state to state.

I never said the generalizing was on one side did I? No, I didn't. I see it on both sides. Sorry if you felt I meant only you as I didn't....

[Sequoia]

It doesn't count either way, to generalize.

I'd say that it's okay to generalize when the vast majority of situations meet the generalization. Kind of like how we say the sky is blue. It's not always blue, in fact, it's not blue at all - that's just a reflection of the ocean! But, that doesn't change the fact that people always say, "The sky is blue."

(And you're generalizing about generalizing... :p )

[WiccanGoddess]

I'd say that it's okay to generalize when the vast majority of situations meet the generalization. Kind of like how we say the sky is blue. It's not always blue, in fact, it's not blue at all - that's just a reflection of the ocean! But, that doesn't change the fact that people always say, "The sky is blue."

So, can you prove that the vast majority fits this situation? Have you traveled to every school in the United States? Prepared studies? Interviewed every teacher to prove that your view fits to everyone? No, I don't believe you have. And that's not a generalized statement. That's a fact.

People don't always say the sky is blue. Some say it's turquoise. Or black. Or yellow. But it's not always said to be blue.


(And you're generalizing about generalizing... :p )

If you wish to read it as that, sure.

[WiccanGoddess]

I never said the generalizing was on one side did I? No, I didn't. I see it on both sides. Sorry if you felt I meant only you as I didn't....

You didn't say the generalizing was on one side...I was just using your post in reference to my question, as, in many threads, I've seen that generalizing is okay if set in favor of the view that fits to a person or topic. Where if someone of the opposite view dare generalize, they're called upon.

[Sequoia]

So, can you prove that the vast majority fits this situation? Have you traveled to every school in the United States? Prepared studies? Interviewed every teacher to prove that your view fits to everyone?

Did I say that I'd interviewed every single one and that every single school, public and private, are identical? Hmm?

No, I don't believe you have. And that's not a generalized statement. That's a fact.

Yeah, well, no duh. :lol: I never claimed to! I even said it was a generalization.

People don't always say the sky is blue. Some say it's turquoise. Or black. Or yellow. But it's not always said to be blue.

-_-; You know what I mean.

(And just a hint: That last part, about generalizing about generalizing? That was this tricky thing called a joke. Hence the smilie. :p See?)

[SerenityMoon]

..Yeah, guys. Thanks for calling my job babysitting.

That was TOTALLY messed up.

I am a pre-k teacher in A SCHOOL. NOT a daycare. A school. Pre-K through 12th grade. And I'll be DAMNED if you call me a freaking babysitter. Bullshit. I am a TEACHER. NOT a daycare worker. I have a TEACHING certificate and a bachelor's degree in elementary education.

My kids LEARN. My kids trace and write. My kids do math, science, social studies, and english/literacy. They do NOT play all day. They have recess, snacktime, and naptime, along with their subjects and learning centers.

This week? We're learning the letter G, the color Black, Properties of rock, soil, and water, and Fall/Seasons. We do worksheets, read books, make graphs, make charts, do art projects, and conduct science experiments. Babysitting? Screw that.

Oh, and guess what? My kids do homework. In fact, all the pre-kindergartens in Texas have homework.

It's practice, and the kids love it. In fact, they ask me everyday if they have homework, and the first thing they do when they run into my room after hugging me is say, "MS. WOOD, I DID MY HOMEWORK! *TEARS HOMEWORK OUT OF BACKPACK*" When I tell them they don't have homework, half the class goes "awwww!! *pout*"

The parents sit down that 10 minutes (becuase that's all it takes to trace letters, match up objects, finish a pattern, or color. Ten. Freaking. Minutes.) and enjoy the time with their child. That child isn't shackled all evening. Give me a break. They have PLENTY of time to be kids.

These kids have to constantly practice this to develop the proper fine motor skills (holding a pencil/crayon, being able to manipulate tools/paper, etc), to remember what they learned the day before, to develop their short term AND long term memories, and to prepare them for the next day.

I'm just disgusted by the fact that you all think myself and other Pre-K teachers do nothing but babysit.

[Ceres]

I think its because they dont want kids growing up dumb.. or um.. er... something like that :D Nah. Im not dumb. Im special :)
Short bus special? :yayah:

[SerenityMoon]

Oh, and for the record? if I DON'T send homework home in over a day, the parents get onto me.

"Where's the homework, Ms. Wood?"
"What? No Homework?"
"Aren't you going to send homework?"

My parents CONSTANTLY ask every day if my kids have homework. I've gone two days without sending it, and the parents FLIP out.

So I don't know about other pre-k classes, but the pre-k parents in my school (and we have 18 pre-k classes, so that's a lot of freaking parents) almost DEMAND homework.

[Ceres]

I'm just disgusted by the fact that you all think myself and other Pre-K teachers do nothing but babysit.


I dont mean to trivialize what you do, because in fact, I have a lot respect for teachers since their job is incredibly important. I dont always agree with their methods, but I do believe the job they do is the foundation of our society. Unfortunately, because our society regards the job of caring for children as being something to be relagated to the less intelligent people who cant do anything more taxing, the term babysitter has become something of an insult.

The fact is, daycare workers, babysittes, teachers - anyone who works with kids should be rewarded, monetarily and with our respect because they job they do shapes the future. So yes, I value very highly what you do, SM, but I also dont think its an insult to call you a babysitter or daycare worker. That deleagtion was made not to devalue what you do, but to recognize the developemental stage at which your charges are at - which is not yet school age.

[SerenityMoon]

I dont mean to trivialize what you do, because in fact, I have a lot respect for teachers since their job is incredibly important. I dont always agree with their methods, but I do believe the job they do is the foundation of our society. Unfortunately, because our society regards the job of caring for children as being something to be relagated to the less intelligent people who cant do anything more taxing, the term babysitter has become something of an insult.

Thank you. I appreciate your respect.



The fact is, daycare workers, babysittes, teachers - anyone who works with kids should be rewarded, monetarily and with our respect because they job they do shapes the future. So yes, I value very highly what you do, SM, but I also dont think its an insult to call you a babysitter or daycare worker. That deleagtion was made not to devalue what you do, but to recognize the developemental stage at which your charges are at - which is not yet school age.

I disagree. My children are perfectly capable and developmentally ready to do the things they do at school.

And it IS different. Babysitters are not EXPECTED or OBLIGATED to actually TEACH. Now, granted, I've seen some amazing daycare workers and babysitters. My mother was an amazing daycare worker. She worked beautifully with the kids, and taught as much as the daycare would allow. But the simple fact is that as a majority, children in daycare or with babysitters tend to do little more than play. There isn't much booklearning, writing, reading, etc. And they definitely don't receive homework. =P

So yes, it's a bit insulting to me when people start calling my job babysitting when it most decidedly isn't. I had to get EC-4 teaching certified to do what I do. Babysitters don't. I had to get a bachelor's degree. Babysitters don't. I grade papers, teach actual school subjects, have discipline charts, teach writing and reading...and babysitters don't.

[Sequoia]

which is not yet school age.

I'd have to argue with that, considering they're at school and all.

[sari0009]

4 yr.old wouldn't sit and do his homework...What do you all think of pre-schooler's having homework?

On what pretexts are people assigning four-year-olds homework?

The kid is trying to tell his parent(s) something but doesn't have yet have the maturity to articulate that this is so wrong for him.

To a great extent, core learned level/direction of ability/dysfunction (and attitude toward learning) are etched deeply into a kid by about 4 to six years of age.

Accidentally instilling hate, dread, or power struggles in association with homework/learning can potentially have life-long mildly troubling to even devastating results.

In fact, there are many well documented cases in which, when pushed too young, even geniuses later refused to produce and perform like trained monkeys, often severely falling short of their potential (or any average person's).

As kids, my parents took us to museums, cultural events, camps, fairs, rock hunting, cave tours, and fossil digging. Later, the daily undercurrent of structure and quiet positive expectations meant good grades without power struggles over homework. Both my brothers have their PhD's in geology. I now make jewel