Irish Lore Question

[skilly-nilly]

I was thinking of using the title 'Ritual Copulation' but then I decided the thread would go ot verrrrry quickly if I did.

Real Question is:

I am writing a Samhein Ritual (I am a member of an ADF Grove) and I wanted a co-God with The Morrighan (Whom I am offering to as the Goddess).

Is there a time of the year mentioned when The Morrighan and The Dagda have sex over a river in an act of continuing Sovereignty? It is The Dagda, isn't it??

I know that I can look this up myself, but I lazily prefer to tap into the existing knowledge, although I promise to read the pointed-to reference.

Thanks.

[Morgandria]

It is the Daghda, and it is specifically at Samhain.

[KellyP]

If I am correct, it was in the events leading to the Second Battle of Mag Tuired as reported in the translation near line 84: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmteng.htm.

Once you have completed your Samhain feast I would love to see the material from the ritual!

[Meadhbh]

Thats one of the reasons the Tuatha De Dannan won the battle. It was how they got the Morrigan's blessings.

[skilly-nilly]

If I am correct, it was in the events leading to the Second Battle of Mag Tuired as reported in the translation near line 84: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmteng.htm.

Once you have completed your Samhain feast I would love to see the material from the ritual!

Thank you very much for the point--I think I will use the prophecy

"Peace up to heaven.
Heaven down to earth.
Earth beneath heaven,
Strength in each,
A cup very full,
Full of honey;
Mead in abundance.
Summer in winter. . . .
Peace up to heaven . . ."

as a part of the invocation.

[The Dagda]

Hey skilly, just a quick note on samhain. Its not really about who came to union when. Id stay as far away from any of that as i could, as it isn't the point of the celebration in any case. By all means give thanks to whom ever you wish but the crux of the celebration lies in the change of season, the realiseation that many wont be here next year and the contemplation on those who havent made it this year. Most importantly it is the last major slap up feasta/precedence until the sun again takes precedency over the moon as the Rubicose zenith.

Re kellyp: On looking over the link you provided, i feel i have to warn you, it is one of the most inutile versions of moytura2 that i have read, and i have read a few. I find it unabashedly flawed and pervaded with as many misunderstandings as it is with solecisms. I would try and find a better source. i realise that it isnt always easy!

[KellyP]

Re kellyp: On looking over the link you provided, i feel i have to warn you, it is one of the most inutile versions of moytura2 that i have read, and i have read a few. I find it unabashedly flawed and pervaded with as many misunderstandings as it is with solecisms. I would try and find a better source. i realise that it isnt always easy!

Since that was only the first resource that I found online, I bow to your obvious expertise and ask that perhaps you could recommend one that we should use?

[The Dagda]

please, no prostrating.

perhaps you would find sources quoted elsewhere on this site by "ordered" druids more equitable and/or palatable. There are many here that will freely offer you many many links, and are far more qualified in written teachings than i, due to my own humble and contrite oral tradition. If in the (highly unlikely) event that none are forthcoming upon your imminent solicitation, the following link may be of some use. (to you yourself as i am unsure as to whom you refer to, when you say "we".)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/index.htm

I own a hard copy of this, i entrust the web manifestation is of similar stature to the original paragon.

[Seren_]

I was thinking of using the title 'Ritual Copulation' but then I decided the thread would go ot verrrrry quickly if I did.

Real Question is:

I am writing a Samhein Ritual (I am a member of an ADF Grove) and I wanted a co-God with The Morrighan (Whom I am offering to as the Goddess).

Is there a time of the year mentioned when The Morrighan and The Dagda have sex over a river in an act of continuing Sovereignty? It is The Dagda, isn't it??

I know that I can look this up myself, but I lazily prefer to tap into the existing knowledge, although I promise to read the pointed-to reference.

Thanks.

I'm not sure how significant it is, but the story specifically mentions that the union took place before Samhain (well, All Hallows as the translation says, but it does say Samain in the Irish):


84. The Dagda had a house in Glen Edin in the north, and he had arranged to meet a woman in Glen Edin a year from that day, near the All Hallows of the battle. The Unshin of Connacht roars to the south of it.

He saw the woman at the Unshin in Corann, washing, with one of her feet at Allod Echae (that is, Aghanagh) south of the water and the other at Lisconny north of the water. There were nine loosened tresses on her head. The Dagda spoke with her, and they united. "The Bed of the Couple" was the name of that place from that time on. (The woman mentioned here is the Morrigan.)

85. Then she told the Dagda that the Fomoire would land at Mag Ceidne, and that he should summon the aes dana of Ireland to meet her at the Ford of the Unshin, and she would go into Scetne to destroy Indech mac De Domnann, the king of the Fomoire, and would take from him the blood of his heart and the kidneys of his valor. Later she gave two handfuls of that blood to the hosts that were waiting at the Ford of the Unshin. Its name became "The Ford of Destruction" because of that destruction of the king.

86. So the aes dana did that, and they chanted spells against the Fomorian hosts.

87. This was a week before All Hallows, and they all dispersed until all the men of Ireland came together the day before All Hallows. Their number was six times thirty hundred, that is, each third consisted of twice thirty hundred.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmteng.htm
The Whitley Stokes translation for comparison (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T300011/index.html)

But yes, it was the Dagda she did the deed with.

[skilly-nilly]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmteng.htm.






http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/index.htm




I'm not sure how significant it is, but the story specifically mentions that the union took place before Samhain (well, All Hallows as the translation says, but it does say Samain in the Irish):



http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmteng.htm
The Whitley Stokes translation for comparison (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T300011/index.html)

But yes, it was the Dagda she did the deed with.

Nicely, it is just before Samhein that the Grove is meeting so it remains apropos.


Hey skilly, just a quick note on samhain. Its not really about who came to union when. Id stay as far away from any of that as i could, as it isn't the point of the celebration in any case. By all means give thanks to whom ever you wish but the crux of the celebration lies in the change of season, the realiseation that many wont be here next year and the contemplation on those who havent made it this year. Most importantly it is the last major slap up feasta/precedence until the sun again takes precedency over the moon as the Rubicose zenith.

Re kellyp: On looking over the link you provided, i feel i have to warn you, it is one of the most inutile versions of moytura2 that i have read, and i have read a few. I find it unabashedly flawed and pervaded with as many misunderstandings as it is with solecisms. I would try and find a better source. i realise that it isnt always easy!


Really, 'dagda', I find your posts a little condescending.

On the one hand, both you and KellyP point to Sacred Texts--a site of some repute. So does Seren, and her corroborative text is very similar to the one you dislike so much. Personally, I find Lady Gregory a little dated. She alone leaves out the sex and skips over the 'news-telling' and the 'prophecy' parts of the story. I prefer my folklore without bowdlerization and Victorian-style prudery.

On the other hand, my op didn't say, "I am unsure about the meaning of Samhein--please enlighten me." What I did post was a specific question about Irish Lore. That was what I wanted an answer to, not notification that the season is changing.

Just in case, I did mention what prompted the question, 'I am a member of an ADF Grove and am writing the Samhein Ritual'. As anyone familiar with ADF ritual knows, there is a specific format that is followed will-ye nill-ye. Whether it's McTat enough for others, whether it's the ritual format I would use if I was not participating in a formal and public Grove event, whether it is in accordance with other's perceptions of the Day is totally beside the point--if I'm writing for the ADF I'm using the ADF format, it can't be debated.

Just a point of personal curiosity--I would guess from your writing style that English is not your primary language; what language do you customarily speak?

[The Dagda]

Skilly.............. really, i was discussing a topic you raised, (perhaps i was mistaken, i thought that was what ppl did here). if you read it and see condescension, then perhaps you need to just lighten up. I feel no need to obscure my recalcitrance towards your formatted type of rituals (baring in mind i will defend your right to perform them). Do you in turn, not share this sentiment?

As for my reply to Kellyp, i read the source material, and my opinion of it, from an irish point of view, remains the same.(if you feel exposed by that, then im sure we can arrange a discussion, whereby you can offer your insights on the nuances of irish-english translation in ADF Format [of course]).
I made it clear to KellyP that there were many others of differing dispositions before i suggested Lady Gregory. I expected no less of a eulogy from you SKILLY, for an avant-garde individual such as Lady G. , you yourself being from such an illustrious and prolific sodality as ADF.

As above, good for you, ADF sounds like a really great "format", do you all spell Samhain "samhein"?

At least ive learned not to reply to your posts.

One last thing: Leigh idir na linte, agus ansin, inis dom cad ata me ag smaoineamh i ndairire!

[Tranquility]

Hi all. Regarding a Scholarly Source..ADF claims that "The Mabinogi and Other Medieval Welsh Tales" (Paperback)
by Patrick K. Ford (Editor), is the most accurate and acclaimed version of the Mabinogion currently.

[skilly-nilly]

One last thing: Leigh idir na linte, agus ansin, inis dom cad ata me ag smaoineamh i ndairire!

Still, if I read between the lines I see condescension and the desire to impress rather than the desire to help with resources or even the wish to trade opinions.

I'm sure that you're more McTat then I am or almost anybody. And, indeed, the ADF is far from scholarly but its focus is on community. In the interests of stirring a little spoon of folk-loric accuracy into the mix, I asked a question about folklore.

[Tadrith]

*chuckles*

If you call yourself a Druid, you are either a liar or a neo-pagan. If the latter, you've caught a wonderful mental virus of romantic historical revisions from the 17th century (or even more seriously, the rare but deadly dungeon-mold! But shhh... to speak its name will spur the wrath of Galstaff!). A very deadly disease, rumoured to caused hallucinations and anal leakage. Druidry has long been dead.

That aside, its very impressive to see someone so knowledgeable on this site. Its not often that we have oral traditions that have survived millenia, in perfectly intact form. Perhaps The Dagda can hold congregations and help us along our little way towards learning the Truth as it was by Ordered Druids?

All in best wishes,

Tadhg Laoch, 12th Level ArchDruid of the Order of the Ancient Oak

[Tadrith]

I feel I need to add... all the above is based upon your definition :)

To good friends, good times, and good beer,
:cheers:

Tad

[odubhain]

In the interests of stirring a little spoon of folk-loric accuracy into the mix, I asked a question about folklore.

The Dagda also had sex with the Fomorian princess as part of the activities leading up to the battle. The battle and the events of Samhain are not focused on the Morrigan so much as they are the story of Lugh and the victory of order (as in skilled, Aes Dana) over chaos (Fomorii, Dé Domnann).

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

*chuckles*

If you call yourself a Druid, you are either a liar or a neo-pagan. If the latter, you've caught a wonderful mental virus of romantic historical revisions from the 17th century (or even more seriously, the rare but deadly dungeon-mold! But shhh... to speak its name will spur the wrath of Galstaff!). A very deadly disease, rumoured to caused hallucinations and anal leakage. Druidry has long been dead.

That aside, its very impressive to see someone so knowledgeable on this site. Its not often that we have oral traditions that have survived millenia, in perfectly intact form. Perhaps The Dagda can hold congregations and help us along our little way towards learning the Truth as it was by Ordered Druids?

All in best wishes,

Tadhg Laoch, 12th Level ArchDruid of the Order of the Ancient Oak
Those who have wisdom are heeded while those still on the vine are left to ripen before being picked.

Searles O'Dubhain