Do you respect your deities?

[maya]

Okay...here is the problem I have come to. I feel like I am not connecting well with the god and the goddess and this has also prevented me from having a closer relationship to them. What I see as my short fall is that in ancient times, deities were well respected because they were powerful and mystical. Much of what we refer to as mythology was the ancient peoples' way of explaining the mysteries of life.

They honestly believed that the sun was a god and the moon a goddess. In this age of science I know that the moon is a rock orbiting the earth and the sun is a ball of flamming gas. How, then, am I supposed to get over what my brain knows to be able to connect as my ancestors once did. I see a growing plant and I don't think it's magical. I think, it grows because it takes nutrients from the soil and energy from the sun and converts it to food for itself. All these mysteries which were attributed as the work of gods and goddesses has been explained away by science and all those things for which my ancestors worshipped, praised and loved the ancient gods don't mean anything now.

Thus I feel like I have nothing from any power to cause any awe or respect in my heart. I'm not saying I don't think they exist. I just don't understand how I can know what I do and still be able to praise them as I should. I sometimes feel like I treat them as being on an equal level with them and I think that's bad. I don't feel like my deity should be someone I feel like I can invite to a movie or ask to dinner. I guess I'm disillusioned. I can't figure out how to have magick and mystery in my life if I already know why the magick works or what the answer to the mystery is.

~Maya

[Melysande]

They honestly believed that the sun was a god and the moon a goddess. In this age of science I know that the moon is a rock orbiting the earth and the sun is a ball of flamming gas.

And where'd the rock and the flaming ball of gas come from originally? **smiles** (At least, that's how I look at it.)

I see a growing plant and I don't think it's magical. I think, it grows because it takes nutrients from the soil and energy from the sun and converts it to food for itself.

And you can put the soil in a bowl with a paperclip and sit the soil, paperclip and bowl in the sun and it still won't grow. The magick is in the wonder of Life itself. :)

All these mysteries which were attributed as the work of gods and goddesses has been explained away by science and all those things for which my ancestors worshipped, praised and loved the ancient gods don't mean anything now.

Not entirely, I think. Just look a bit deeper than you have been. How marvelous is it to look at your hand and just have the barest inkling that you want it to move to scratch your nose, and then it does? Without you in it to tell it what to do. your body wouldn't do that. (Granted, if you're paralyzed, that isn't necessarily the case.)

I just don't understand how I can know what I do and still be able to praise them as I should.

As far as I can tell, the gods don't actually need us to praise them. It's nice if we do, but it should always be sincere if we do praise them. **gentle smile**

I sometimes feel like I treat them as being on an equal level with them and I think that's bad.

Not me. I treat my deities as if they were my best friends. Because they ARE my friends. I can't really say I treat the Divine as my equal because my definition of "gods" kind of puts them beyond me in most areas. I cowtow to no one. Least of all a god, because that's not how I am. They know this and they seem to like it about me, since I haven't been smited yet and I seem to be fairly lucky. **grins**

I don't feel like my deity should be someone I feel like I can invite to a movie or ask to dinner. I guess I'm disillusioned.

Some people do feel that way. And that's perfectly okay. But I think deities do like to be remembered and thought of in this way. They are beings. And many of them like the same niceties and courtesies that we do.

I can't figure out how to have magick and mystery in my life if I already know why the magick works or what the answer to the mystery is.

Sounds like you might be trying too hard. Just relax and keep your eyes, ears, heart and mind open. They send you signals all the time. You just have to learn to interpret them.

[maya]

I guess I'm not being very clear today. This has been on my mind for so long and I'm still having trouble explaining it the way I feel it. I understand that growing things are beautiful and complex. I also understand that most people don't wish to have the kind of relationship with their deities that I want to have with mine.

I just feel like too much of paganism is just 'going through the motions' with out the same /emotions/ that we're supposed to go with them. I understand that there is still wonder to behold in this world but I can't have the same wonder that my ancestors had and I therefore cannot hold the same awe that they had for the magickal things that happened in their lives. I want to believe for the reasons they believed; not because I understand things but because I don't understand things. I want to be naive about the workings of science so that things do seem new and magickal and like a divine gift. The gods used to have huge temples built in their honor. There were festivals held to worship them. That's how I feel I should give my thanks to them, in joyful worship and communion with nature.

In Christianity, when they give you the 'body and blood of Christ' most people don't believe it IS the body and blood of Christ but a symbolic gesture towards that. On the other hand, when our ancestors gave gifts and sacrifices, when they worshipped their gods and goddesses it wasn't symbolic. It was real to them. They really felt that connection with their religion and I don't. I still feel like everything is 'symbolic' and none of it is really doing anything.

I know my thoughts are controversial and I'm not saying what I feel is right for me is right for everyone else, nor am I saying your thoughts are wrong. I'm just trying my best to explain these feelings in words so please, no one take this personally. I'm just having a hard time making it over this hurdle and wanted to talk it out with people.

~Maya

[Melysande]

No worries. **smiles** I saw nothing offensive.

But I don't think you can have those rosy-tinted glasses and see things with their naivete. You can't believe the way they did because you DON'T believe the way they did. Sounds more like you feel you ought to, rather than actually feeling the need to. Kind of like being the Town Prostitute and asking if you can join the local Vestal Virgins Society. You know too much already.

Definitely a soul-searching for you. I don't envy you.

[Mercuria]

I can't give you any absolute answers, but I can go over my own thoughts which may or may not help you.

I see the deities as metaphors, not conscious beings hovering in another realm.

I also see them as personifications of whatever they represent ie. Apollo is not the *actual* sun, but a personification. If the sun was a person, it might be someone like Apollo (or someone completely different depending on which pantheon you're following).

I also relate strongly to the concept of manifest deities (the deities manifested in reality as whatever they represent), as Ares is the god of war, wherever war exists so too does Ares.

As for finding magick and mystery in everyday life, I think that the fact we are here at all is magickal in itself, because it needn't be so.

What if the Big Bang never happened? What if the laws of physics were slightly different making life impossible? What if humans never evolved? What if my parents had never met? And so on.

The fact that anything exists in the first place is one of the most mysterious and magickal things we can contemplate, and it never ceases to amaze me.

Anyway, keep searching, and as Melysande said- just relax. You find your own answers in time.

Mercuria

[maya]

Well, I think my problem lies in my childhood. I'm sure this has been spoken a billion times before by fluffy bunnies, but here goes. When I was younger I actually used to do magick. My sister and I both would make spells together even though we had no idea that what we were really doing. We'd gather plants and herbs from the wild, light candles, do chants. It's just strange thinking how dead on we were about the whole thing and it was all so natural to us. In some small way I want to recapture that feeling...not because I think I'm supposed to but because I feel /that/ was the way it was meant to be for me, that felt right and what I do now just seems like a cheap immitation. It was so natural for us to do those things and some where along the path of growing up we lost it.

~Maya

[Mercuria]

I think that if you have felt that way in the past, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to recapture that again. Perhaps you need to stop worrying so much about the ins and outs of everything and just go with the flow.

Children tend to be much more spontaneous than adults, and do things naturally without scrutinising the details. Maybe that's what you need to do.......


Mercuria

[Nina]

...don't be too hard on yourself. Melysande - you are spot on. We can't recreate the identical feelings our ancestors had for the Gods, because we live different lives. And don't think they didn't have a thousand and one doubts of their own! I don't know how long you have been on your path, Maya, but I do know that what you are saying brings back a lot of feelings I had when I first started travelling my path. I felt as though I was a fraud, not really believing too much, making stilted prayers, performing rather staid and uncomfortable rituals.

I had a major life-changing event happen to me - not a particularly pleasant one - and I had to take control of my life, make some MAJOR changes and face up to some home-truths. And I discovered on the way, in no uncertain terms, that Karma, the Rule of Three, whatever you wish to call it, does exist, and does manifest itself in the physical realm. This was an eye-opener, and now that I had absolute empirical proof of it, I believed it. I couldn't take it on faith. Now, I don't just go through the motions. I thank my Goddess for each day, even when it's been a particularly crap one, just as though She had given me the best birthday present ever.

And I also know this doesn't help!!!! It's your own experiences that will shape your belief and path. Who says that you are going to walk down a path where you think of the Gods as friends, parents, confidantes? Maybe to you it will be much more abstract than that.

It's a tough one, and I hope you find some peace! Mind you, if we were all deleriously happy with the way we were, there would never be any progress.

Ahhhh... I'm rambling again.

[Melysande]

When all else fails, do as my drama teacher used to say: "Fake it 'til you make it." :) Get in touch with your inner child. Watch cartoons, color, play with clay, make mud pies. And then explore your magickal side in the same vein. Explore with the wonder of a child and forget about being a worldly-wise adult for awhile.

When I was little, I'd leave flowers and pretty rocks and things for fairies and other creatures. Never was sure why I did it at the time, but it felt right to me. The adult me wonders how I knew to do that and why I stopped doing that.

[maya]

Mercuria - Thank you, that's a very encouraging way to look at it and I can totatally agree with your ideas about the manifestations of gods. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Nina - You described my feelings perfectly. As I said, I had been doing certain pagan things since I was a child but it wasn't until last year that I actually wanted to practice it as my faith. The winter has been very hard on me though and I've had difficulty doing things when it's just 'not there' and I'm just doing it in hopes that one time it will click.

Melysande - I love those suggestions. I think that I do sometimes feel pressured to act too much like an adult and I don't get to play as often as I would like. I think I will take your suggestions and try to start forgetting all the adult stuff I know about the way the world works and start remember how things worked when I was a kid.

Thank you all so much!!! <<hugs>>

~Maya

[Ganga]

"Fake it till you make it." I liked that, Melysande! :)

Like Nina, I also "felt as though I was a fraud, not really believing too much, making stilted prayers, performing rather staid and uncomfortable rituals." But somewhere along the trail, my feelings became more sincere, my actions became more spontaneous.

In India, two paths are recognized: 1)the path or rules and regulations, and 2) the path of spontaneous love. To reach that spontaneous path, we usually have to walk on the path of rules and regulations for a while.

And like everyone has said, don't be too hard on yourself, Maya!

Blessed be,
Ganga

[Melysande]

Maya ~ **hugs**

(Privately, Mel wonders what she did with her Animaniacs coloring book and crayons and resolves to look in her closet for them tonight.)

I still feel weird if I do anything other than just talk to my deities. Almost nothing I do comes from a script (either self-made or from anyone else). I find I'm more honest that way.

The Personal Altar thread I made on the Altar of the Ancients is about as formal as I ever get.

[Myst]

If you read Marion Zimmer Bradley's Avalon series you will see it noted a few times (especially by Taliesin) that symbols mean nothing and are the human way of associating something with energy. He muses that we use them to connect, but that someday when we are more advanced we'll all realize that they aren't really important.

Something interesting to think about.

[cybadiva]

I think I can relate to this idea of symbols being a human metaphor for energies. Like Maya - I know the sun is a ball of burning gas and the moon is just a rock - but what still awes me, even more so now than when I was a child, is the way in which the sun amd moon act upon the Earth, without them the Earth would be uninhabitable - no life. The energy and power of the Earth gives us life, my aim as a pagan is to renew my connection with this energy, nurture it, and tap into it if I ever need to. The sun and the moon are crucial to life on Earth, so I honour them too. I don't really deify them - I may refer to a 'Goddess', but thats just my symbolic name for the energy of the Earth/Sun/Moon whatever.

Maya - perhaps you should stop trying to personify these energies, it sounds like you were very intuitive as a child (I wish I'd listened to the Earth more when I was young) and very in touch with your environment. Its easy to lose that connection in this modern world dominated by concrete, glass and metal. If I were you I would try to get outdoors somewhere, somewhere where you can be close to nature, sea, field, forest - kick off your shoes, enjoy the sunshine (or rain) whatever the weather! and just listen to whats going on around you - doesn't have to have a name/face or anything. We come from the Earth and we'll return to the Earth some day - you can never lose that connection, so don't be blue, you'll find it again I'm sure!:)

[Nyxee]

Originally posted by maya
I guess I'm disillusioned.

Heheh your name is Maya. Oh, the irony! ;)

Seriously though, I understand how you're feeling. Sometimes I even wonder if our ancestors really believed that stuff too! Still, if it works, don't diss it, right? :cool:

And recently, I actually have felt the touch of my goddess, and boy did it restore my faith! LOL

Mellee :)

[Emaleth]

Originally posted by Nyxee
[And recently, I actually have felt the touch of my goddess, and boy did it restore my faith! LOL

[/B]

Ahhh, how I envy people who have felt it! It would really assure me that I'm on the right path.
As for respecting my dities, I'm still not quite sure who they are
:D I don't give Them any names, except for God and Goddes, but I feel them around me and within me, I feel their love and protection all the time, especially when I'm around nature. Since I'm still new, I prey to Them in my own way, and I can't wait till I know enough to do magick to worship Them.

Blessed Be

[Theres]

myself, i've been put in my place too many times NOT to believe!

but Maya, i think maybe you just have a different perception of deity.
if you look at the Sun and see a ball of burning gas, if you look at a plant grow and see the process of photosynthesis and nutrient absorbtion, then perhaps Science is your God. after all, it is something many people seem to accept fully, and without question. and that's not much different than the way many adore their Gods.
however, there are STILL mysteries, things that happen consistently without a scientific explanation. it is in these mysteries that faith can be found i think. it is these phenomena that lie outside of 'hard science' that allow even the most skeptic (like yours truly!) to suspend disbelief enough to embrace the concept of 'something bigger'.

and by the way, i'm not sure that the ancients really saw the Sun and Moon as actual Gods and Goddesses. i believe that they were symbols even then, but perhaps symbolism was more wrapped up into everyday life then that it is now.

[maya]

Thank you all for your continued discussion. Myst, I see your point about the symbols we create so we have a physical representation of something that isn't physical at all. I guess what makes me sad is that I have too much knowledge about certain things to still enjoy the innocent (if ignorant) belief in certain things. The closer we get to full blown spring (i.e. no more freezing cold days) the better I feel. This winter was really hard on me as it's the first time I've really tried to connect with the world on a spiritual level and having everything around me passing on in to winter has had an effect on me. This is a really good discussion. I'd like to hear how more people feel about it.

~ Maya

[Shaman0325]

maya,

What I do is, when I look up at the moon or the sun. I dont look at it, I look within and try to see the pure essence of their energy. True about the scientific aspects, but my ancestors prayed and worship the moon & sun as I do, and I see the moon as the Goddess and the sun the Great Spirit :cool:

[Keron]

elloz Maya,
Everyone has pretty much said their piece and i'm probably going to rehash a lot too, but here goes.
I read somewhere that there are three stages of belief in anything you do-- 1) the Isis stage, when everything is magical and wonderful and new and simply lurvveeely. 2) Osirius (something like that), a state of doubt and unhappiness, stagnantation e.t.c. Unpleasant, but a necessary evil to accomplish the third stage. I don't remember what number 3 is called, but it is the state of real enlightenment, not the false novelty of stage 1-- nothing against Isis, mind. If you do not manage to surmount the difficulties in Osirius you do not achieve number 3-- you either go back to Isis or give up.

Here's wishing you good luck and blessings! Remember, life isn't always sunshine and kittens, but there'll "be sunshine after the rain"! (and rain again later. argh)

And, in response to the magic you felt when you were a child, weelll... i have a little theory about that. One-- if you believe in reincarnation, it could the last vestiges of the knowledge in your past life working through you. Two-- that same old theory about how children are more receptive than adults... ;)

[Isis]

Coming from a Xian background, I completely understand.

In Xianity I often felt like nothing I did was correct and I always seemed to fall short of what was expected.

Some days I have to sit and remind myelf the magick isn't necessarily in the result, but in the process. The process of being, and knowing that your energy connects divinely within and without. You are connected and powerful. You're power is everywhere.....the responsibility you have in creating your life is purely up to you.


I think part of my problem comes from not being around people that I can always share my beliefs and thoughts with. That's very difficult, lonely and hurtful.....but no matter what....I know I'm in the right place, because this is who I truly am!

Oh well, best of luck to you!

Isis