Is There A Relationship Between Danu and Diana?

[Carla O'Harris]

Ok, before everyone jumps on me, I am going out on a limb here to explore a question that I know little about. Usually I try to speak about those things which I have a fairly large knowledge-base about. But in the hopes that some interesting dialogue might result, I will ask :

Is there a possibility of relationship in ancient times between the Danu of the Celts and Diana?

If so, it could explain why Diana was thought to be the Queen of the Fairies, as the Fairies are called the Tuatha de Danaan, the Tribe of Danu. (I realize it can also mean the "tribe of artists").

Read http://www.world-destiny.org/mair21.htm, evaluate it, and tell me what you think.

Also check out http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/pagan/107913

While this article doesn't answer this question directly, it gives information about the relationship between Dana and Don :

http://www.shadowdrake.com/dondana.html

Even if there was no genuine linguistic or archaic ritual connection between the two, the linguistic similarity could very much have been a reason why people who worshipped a goddess of fairies with a name sounding somewhere in the ballpark region of "Dana" could have sounded to those with classical education like "Diana" (or vice-versa).

[Eran]

Is there a possibility of relationship in ancient times between the Danu of the Celts and Diana?
I am aware that, as a rule, modern Celtic reconstructionists, revivalists, researchers, and traditionalists all tend to discount the possibility of any connection between Danu and Diana. But you are correct, the similarities are striking and evocative, and beg for explanation.

I wonder sometimes if the denial of connection is a result of wanting to maintain a sense of separation between Celts and non-Celts; but both the Celts and the pre-Greco-Roman worshippers of the very ancient Diana ultimately derive from Indo-European stock. So, if you go back far enough, the insistence on no connection simply isn't credible. The question becomes, Did the idea of Diana and the idea of Danu appear within these different Indo-European branches before or after they split from each other? and, Was the contact between these two branches so limited after the split that there could have been no cross-fertilization and intercommunication of religious imagery and deity forms?

Well, for the second part of that question, there is no doubt that there was sufficient communication. There was trade, there was travel, there was exchange of technology.

All this provides reason to think there was a connection between these two very similar deity forms. Whether the arguments are convincing to any given person is up to them to decide.

[skilly-nilly]

these two very similar deity forms.

What is similar about them? Isn't Diana a huntress, connected to the Moon, and chaste?

None of those are the case with Danu who is a Queen, connected to a river, and very maternal.

Apart from having mildly similar names.....

[Carla O'Harris]

Diana also has a connection to lakes and marshes, so she is not devoid of water-connections. (And I do not know whether the moon in ancient times was connected to the element of water, but it is often now.)

Diana was called upon for childbirth, and there is evidence to indicate that at one time she may have been thought of as having a mother-aspect. At the very least the Diana of Ephesus was a Mother Goddess figure, as she had multiple breasts feeding the world.

And Diana is considered Queen of the Fairies in many traditions, and thus is a Queen herself.

So the connections are not as far-fetched as one might think.

There seems to be a common misunderstanding that ancient peoples were like modern secularist scholars requiring precise analysis and detailed footnotes when comparing religious experiences, rather than examining motifs and their commonalities. What may appear like big differences on the level of detail may reveal themselves as strong commonalities at the level of structural form.

[Carla O'Harris]

Eran said,


Did the idea of Diana and the idea of Danu appear within these different Indo-European branches before or after they split from each other?

This is a very good question, and worthy of some investigation.

It would appear that Hindu mythology included a figure with the name of Danu. This could be significant, and should be looked into more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess) says,


Based on the evidence of place-names, such as the river Danube (Latin: Danuvius), Dniestr, Dniepr and Don, she may have been worshipped throughout the Celtic world. Indeed, the presence of a goddess named Danu in Hindu mythology, associated with water and mother of a race of Asuras called the Danavas, may indicate a very ancient Proto-Indo-European origin for this figure.

and


The reconstructed lexis of the Proto-Celtic language as collated by the University of Wales [1] suggests that the name is likely to be ultimately derived from the Proto-Celtic *Danoā. This Proto-Celtic word connotes the semantics of ‘Giving,’ ‘Bountiful’ and ‘Flow.’

See http://www.travellady.com/Issues/June05/1552BaliBeautiful.htm :


There are many deities in the Hindu religion. The Pura Ulun Danu in Bratan is a temple dedicated to Dewi Danu, the goddess of the waters and source of fertility. It has a lakeside setting with Mt. Batur in the distance as its backdrop. It is often cloaked in mist lending it an ethereal appearance.


See http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/ :


Elsewhere Tvashtar’s son is Vishvarupa or Vritra, whom Indra kills, cutting off his three heads (RV X.8.8-9), (TS II.4.12, II.5.1). Indra slays the dragon, Vritra, who lays at the foot of the mountain withholding the waters, and releases the seven rivers to flow into the sea. In several instances, Vritra is called Danava, the son of the Goddess Danu who is connected to the sea (RV I.32.9; II.11.10; III.30.8; V.30.4; V.32).
(emphasis mine ; source quoted as "The Rig Veda and the History of India (Rig Veda Bharata Itihasa) By David Frawley (Aditya Prakashan, August 2001) ©2001 American Institute of Vedic Studies")


This same article also claims,


In fact, the term Danu or Danava (the plural of Danu) appears to form the substratum of Indo-European identity at the base of the Hellenic, Illyro-Venetic, Italo-Celtic, Germanic and Balto-Slavic elements. The northern Greeks were also called Danuni. Therefore, the European Aryans could probably all be called Danavas.


In the Brahmanas Vishvarupa/Vritra is the son of Danu and Danayu, the names of his mother and father (SB I.6.3.1, 8, 9). Clearly Vritra is Vishvarupa, the son of the God Tvashtar and the Goddess Danu.

and also,


In the Rig Veda, Danu like Dasyu refers to inimical people and is generally a term of denigration (RV I.32.9; III.30.8; V.30.4; V.32.1, 4, 7; X.120.6). The Danavas or descendants of Danu are generally enemies of the Vedic people and their Gods. Therefore, just as the Deva-Asura or Arya-Dasyu split is reflected in the split between the Vedic Hindus and the Persians, one can propose that the Deva-Danava split reflects another division in the Vedic people, including that between the Proto-Indian Aryans and the Proto-European Aryans. In this process the term Danu was adopted by the Proto-Europeans and became denigrated by later Vedic people.We should also remember that in the Puranas (VaP II.7), as in the Vedas the term Danavas refer to a broad group of peoples, many inimical, but others friendly, as well as various mythical demons. In the Rig Veda, the Danavas are called amanusha or unhuman (RV II.11.10) as opposed to human, Manusha.

However ...


The Rig Veda contains many instances where Danu has a positive meaning indicating abundance or even standing for divine in general. Danucitra, meaning the richness of light, occurs a few times (RV I.174.7; V.59.8). The Maruts are called Jira-danu or plural Jira-danava or quick to give or perhaps fast Danus or fast Gods (RV V.54.9). This term Jiradanu occurs elsewhere as the gift of the Maruts in the last line of most of the hymns of Agastya (RV I.165-169, 171-178, 180-186, 189, 190). Mitra and Varuna are said to be Sripra-danu or easy to give and their many gifts, danuni, are praised (RV VIII.25.5-6). The Ashvins are called lords of Danuna, Danunaspati (RV VIII.8.16). Soma is also called Danuda and Danupinva, giving Danu or overflowing with Danu (RV IX.97.23), connecting Danu with water or with rivers.

(Compare this use of "danu" to mean abundant, giving, or rich with Wikipedia's earlier invocation of The University of Wales' theory of "Proto-Celtic *Danoā ... ‘Giving,’ ‘Bountiful’ and ‘Flow.’")


This suggests that perhaps Danu, like Asura, was earlier a positive word and meant divine.

The entire article is worthy of perusal.

http://webonautics.com/mythology/avataar_vamana3.html says,


The Danavas who were righteous in the beginning had become vain and insolent.

http://paranormal.se/topic/danu.html has some excellent in-depth look at the goddess Danu, and is worth examining.


http://www.geocities.com/indianpaganism/celticvedic.html says,


In the Vedic myth Danu is the mother of darkness, representative of the state of unmanifest being or She may be the mother of the forces of maya.... Whereas in the Celtic version Danu is the opposite, She is the mother of those who symbolise all that is light and lawful, the equivalent of the Vedic Aditi. ... Vedic literature tells of many disputes between the various peoples of ancient India. Therefore the possibility exists that the contrasting Danus are the result of a dispute between the some of the Vedic groups, or possibly a religious schism within Vedic culture.

http://www.miraura.org/lit/skgl/skgl-07.html gives,


dana
giving.
danam [nominative]



Danu
the divided consciousness, mother of Vrtra and the other danavas (same as Diti). [Ved.]


danus
children of Danu, [a class of demons]. [Ved.]


http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/2/ says,


We have noted Danu or Danava as a term for an inimical people or even an anti-god, like Deva and Asura, probably reflects some split in the Aryan peoples.


There's a beginning to looking at the question.

[Carla O'Harris]

According to http://members.bumn-ri.com/btdcnd/news.html?news_id=13687,


Once upon a time, there was a powerful King called Mayadenawa. Mayadenawa was a descendant of daitya (powerful giant), the son of Dewi Danu. Because of his power he can transformed himself into many kinds of creatures and forms.
This King ruled the area of Makasar, Sumbawa, Bugis, Lombok, and Blambangan. Because of his great power, Mayadenawa became snobbish and cruel. ... The death of the King Mayadenawa is the victory of the good (dharma) upon evil (adharma). This victory day is celebrated every six months (6x35 days=210 days), which is called Galungan Day.

This clearly identifies the Balinese "Dewi Danu" as the "Danu" of the mainland Hindus, because of Daitya's relationship to Danu.

Yet Dewi Danu is clearly a benevolent deity :


http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1989/05/1989-05-05.shtml


Goddess Dewi Danu is considered a feminine form of Lord Vishnu.



in Bali, Goddess Dewi Danu had ... Her thousand-year-old system of "water temples" which controlled Bali's agriculture. She used to put Her divine power through Gero Gde, high priest of Bali's main water temple, Ulun Danu Batur (situated beside an enormous crater lake). He and his fellow priests combined the mystical power of Hindu rites with a vast store of traditional agricultural knowledge and an artful sense of community relations to produce bumper crops of rice and vegetables year after year.


Usually tactful Newsweek still talked cynically about the farmers taking "great care not to offend Dewi Danu," and "placating the Goddess," as if the farmers lived in terror of what is really a beloved Goddess. Dr. Lansing and Dr. Kramer proved the scientific value of the system. But neither is prepared to claim his work discredits the supernatural side of the water temples or the benevolence of Goddess Dewi Danu.

[Brightshores]

I don't have a source on this, as I think I returned the book I read it in to the library without writing it down. (Bad scholar! Bad scholar!) But - I know I've read about a very interesting hypothesis that forms of the name "Anna" or "Dana" are all derived from one of the most ancient Indo-European names for Goddess(es).

Expressions can be found in many places - as you mentioned, there are Danu of the Celts, Diana of the Romans, and Danu of Vedic tradition. There is also Athena (Ath-Anna?) of the Greeks, Anahita (Persian), Amma (Norse), and Ananta (Hindu).

Examples of strikingly similar Goddess names can also be found in non-Indo-European, but neighboring cultures, including Inanna of the Sumerians, Anat/Anath/Anatu of Mesopotamia and the eastern Mediterranean, and Saint Anne of the Christians (Mary's mother).

According to this source:
http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/pier/deities.htm#15
Ana or Donu was originally a non-Indo-European river Goddess adopted into the PIE pantheon quite early on, which could explain the non-PIE similarities.
It also explains the huge number of related river-names throughout Europe, from the Danube in Eastern Europe to the Don in Russia to the River Don in Aberdeen, Scotland.

[David19]

Diana also has a connection to lakes and marshes, so she is not devoid of water-connections. (And I do not know whether the moon in ancient times was connected to the element of water, but it is often now.)

Diana was called upon for childbirth, and there is evidence to indicate that at one time she may have been thought of as having a mother-aspect. At the very least the Diana of Ephesus was a Mother Goddess figure, as she had multiple breasts feeding the world.

And Diana is considered Queen of the Fairies in many traditions, and thus is a Queen herself.

So the connections are not as far-fetched as one might think.

So you want to demote the Celtic gods to just fairies, and have another god ruling over them?.

[Faust]

were going out, what of it?

[David19]

I wonder sometimes if the denial of connection is a result of wanting to maintain a sense of separation between Celts and non-Celts; but both the Celts and the pre-Greco-Roman worshippers of the very ancient Diana ultimately derive from Indo-European stock. So, if you go back far enough, the insistence on no connection simply isn't credible. The question becomes, Did the idea of Diana and the idea of Danu appear within these different Indo-European branches before or after they split from each other? and, Was the contact between these two branches so limited after the split that there could have been no cross-fertilization and intercommunication of religious imagery and deity forms?

Off topic: but just wanted to say, that the Indo-Europeans weren't that great, since to the Sumerians, they were seen as barbarians.


Well, for the second part of that question, there is no doubt that there was sufficient communication. There was trade, there was travel, there was exchange of technology.

And, of course, the massacre of the Celtic Druids by the Romans, an Imperialist army, if Diana and Danu are the same, why would she let one of her peoples kill another of her set of worshippers?.

[Carla O'Harris]

I don't have a source on this, as I think I returned the book I read it in to the library without writing it down. (Bad scholar! Bad scholar!) But - I know I've read about a very interesting hypothesis that forms of the name "Anna" or "Dana" are all derived from one of the most ancient Indo-European names for Goddess(es).

Expressions can be found in many places - as you mentioned, there are Danu of the Celts, Diana of the Romans, and Danu of Vedic tradition. There is also Athena (Ath-Anna?) of the Greeks, Anahita (Persian), Amma (Norse), and Ananta (Hindu).

Examples of strikingly similar Goddess names can also be found in non-Indo-European, but neighboring cultures, including Inanna of the Sumerians, Anat/Anath/Anatu of Mesopotamia and the eastern Mediterranean, and Saint Anne of the Christians (Mary's mother).

According to this source:
http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/pier/deities.htm#15
Ana or Donu was originally a non-Indo-European river Goddess adopted into the PIE pantheon quite early on, which could explain the non-PIE similarities.
It also explains the huge number of related river-names throughout Europe, from the Danube in Eastern Europe to the Don in Russia to the River Don in Aberdeen, Scotland.

Indeed, fascinating citation :


According to Miriam Robbins Dexter ([Dexter, Miriam Robbins. Reflections on the Goddess *Donu. Mankind Quarterly 31:1 & 2 (Fall/Winter, 1990), pp. 45 - 57]), she seems to be a non-Indo-European river and earth goddess who was adopted at an early stage of Proto-Indo-European religion. This makes her Proto-Indo-European enough for our purposes, though. She is found throughout the Indo-European domains, from the Irish goddess Danu to the Vedic Danu to the Danube, Don, Dniester, Donets, and Dniepr rivers. The Greeks were called the Danaans, and the Danes are descended from Dana. She is not found among the Hittites, which may be evidence that she is late Proto-Indo-European, but even to the Hittites the deities of rivers and springs were female.

As a river goddess, Donu is the giver of fertility to the land. "Donu" may have been carried along with the Indo-Europeans as a title rather than a personality, being applied to a river or earth goddess in each new land. She may be worshiped effectively at local rivers, especially the major river in a watershed, and especially at that river's source. The local goddess may be worshiped under her own name, or called "Donu," or even "the Donu" as a title or name.




Thank you for the citation!

[Carla O'Harris]

So you want to demote the Celtic gods to just fairies, and have another god ruling over them?.

No offense, but this just demonstrates ignorance. There is no "demotion" involved if one truly understands the fair folk, which most people do not. They are an entire kingdom of beings who are themselves ruled over by an aristocracy of deities with a duotheistic King and Queen. There is no "demotion" whatsoever!!

[Carla O'Harris]

Off topic: but just wanted to say, that the Indo-Europeans weren't that great, since to the Sumerians, they were seen as barbarians.



And, of course, the massacre of the Celtic Druids by the Romans, an Imperialist army, if Diana and Danu are the same, why would she let one of her peoples kill another of her set of worshippers?.

Huh??

[Fiamma]

And Diana is considered Queen of the Fairies in many traditions, and thus is a Queen herself.




such as...?

[Carla O'Harris]

Are you asking this out of curiosity, or out of a demand for proof?

I will provide some answers for curiosity, and none for proof. The reason is, this is a well-known fact, and I am not going to defend well-known facts.

So you let me know.

[David19]

Are you asking this out of curiosity, or out of a demand for proof?

I will provide some answers for curiosity, and none for proof. The reason is, this is a well-known fact, and I am not going to defend well-known facts.

So you let me know.

I'm curious, i know i'm not the original poster, but this is something i think you're knowledgable about (Fae stuff), and i'm interested in it especially about how the Fae kingdom (or kingdoms or realms, whatever?) are set up.

Like is it similar to our realm (e.g. would there be Fae aristocrats, kings, presidents, military, etc).

That might sound like a dumb question but i am curious about that.

[Carla O'Harris]

It often mirrors our realm to some degree. When I invoke an aristocracy, however, I am referring to a nobility of character within the faery realm that distinguishes them from more nasty types. Increased nobility and responsibility often go together.

[Dawa Lhamo]

such as...?Please, what are you referring to? Which traditions? Which fairies? Which Queens? You've got a whole sentence with possible antecedents there... (which is why I hate one or two word questions after long quotations... it's hard to know what issue is being questioned, it's hard to know what to address...)

Off topic: but just wanted to say, that the Indo-Europeans weren't that great, since to the Sumerians, they were seen as barbarians.
AND??? I don't see why this is even relevant. No group of people is EVER "that great"... there are always issues of some sort or another. Good and bad people in any group... The point about Indo-European hostilities with the Persians was made with the Asura/Deva explanation. As far as I could see, though, there was no preference made in the explanation (i.e. that the IEs were the betters or anything). But in response to the Romans and the Celts both being Indo-European, I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of your statement.
And, of course, the massacre of the Celtic Druids by the Romans, an Imperialist army, if Diana and Danu are the same, why would she let one of her peoples kill another of her set of worshippers?.Why would ANY God allow a civil war, then? Jehovah "allows" his worshippers to kill each other all the time. Why would he allow Christian Nazis to kill Jews? Personally, I'm unconvinced that the Gods are as involved in our wars as we believe. The Gods have influence, no doubt, but I don't know why they'd interfere as much as we credit them with doing.

And about the "demoting"... I read it as Diana=Queen of Fairies, Danu=Queen of Gods... Even if Diana=Danu, that doesn't necessarily follow that Fairies=Gods. The statement GWB=Ruler of Texas is true (at least at some point in time, with a bit of flexibility on the word ruler), and GWB=Ruler of the USA is true. And while GWB might be the same, Texas does not equal USA... In the same vein, a person can be ruler/queen/president/whatever of two different groups (at the same time, even), having the same *function* and fulfilling the same *role*, but the two groups themselves being different. ^_^ So it might be with Danu and Diana.

Personally, I love all this linguistic information from this thread. I've been excited about the Asura/Deva thing since I first heard about it in college (reading the Ramayana), because the etymology of Gods is fascinating to me. ^_^

[Fiamma]

Are you asking this out of curiosity, or out of a demand for proof?

I will provide some answers for curiosity, and none for proof. The reason is, this is a well-known fact, and I am not going to defend well-known facts.

So you let me know.


Hmm. So well known that I have never heard of it...so let's cal it curiousity.

[Fiamma]

Are you asking this out of curiosity, or out of a demand for proof?

I will provide some answers for curiosity, and none for proof. The reason is, this is a well-known fact, and I am not going to defend well-known facts.

So you let me know.


By the way, I am making no demends.

[skilly-nilly]

And Diana is considered Queen of the Fairies in many traditions, and thus is a Queen herself.


the fair folk...are an entire kingdom of beings who are themselves ruled over by an aristocracy of deities with a duotheistic King and Queen.


The reason is, this is a well-known fact, and I am not going to defend well-known facts.


It often mirrors our realm to some degree. When I invoke an aristocracy, however, I am referring to a nobility of character within the faery realm that distinguishes them from more nasty types. Increased nobility and responsibility often go together.

I'm not following this line of argument at all.

On the one hand, you seem to be referencing a quasi-British Elfin 'Kingdom' in discussing the Little Buggers, but Diana is Roman. I am not very familiar with ancient Italian lore, but I feel certain that the Roman perception of 'spirits' does not mirror that of the British Isles. Nyads, Dryads, et al are very place-specific and do not seem to have an 'aristocracy' but answer directly to the Gods/desses. I think that if you're going to refer to "F***ies" then you also have to specify what culture's Gentry you're referring to.

On the other hand, apart from having similar names I still don't see any correspondence. Danu is connected to a specific river---if Diana has some association with 'marshiness', that's not the same thing.

On the gripping hand, I also had never heard any association between 'Diana' (Roman) and 'Queen of the F.....' (British/Celtic Group). If one googles 'Goddess Diana' the first 2 pages have no points that reference this either. A few of the less scholarly sites add a modern association as the 'Queen of the Witches' but that's all.

So, yes, can you provide a citation for your assertion?

[Fiamma]

Please, what are you referring to? Which traditions? Which fairies? Which Queens? You've got a whole sentence with possible antecedents there... (which is why I hate one or two word questions after long quotations... it's hard to know what issue is being questioned, it's hard to know what to address...)



the only variable that had no real specification atall there was Cultures..so I was asking in reference to which cultures were beingreferred to here.

[Fiamma]

the only variable that had no real specification atall there was Cultures..so I was asking in reference to which cultures were beingreferred to here.


Er, traditions...not cultures.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Er, traditions...not cultures.Thanks. ^_^ Looking back, traditions does make the most sense, but I was just confused. ^_^

[Fiamma]

Thanks. ^_^ Looking back, traditions does make the most sense, but I was just confused. ^_^


I'm still confused.

[David19]

Why would ANY God allow a civil war, then? Jehovah "allows" his worshippers to kill each other all the time. Why would he allow Christian Nazis to kill Jews? Personally, I'm unconvinced that the Gods are as involved in our wars as we believe. The Gods have influence, no doubt, but I don't know why they'd interfere as much as we credit them with doing.

At the time of writing i was in a rush, so i wasn't thinking (and i was probably hung over as i did only get home at 5.30 AM or something from a club! ;), so i apolagize for the post on the 1st page (so just ignore it ;)).

That said, i do think that the physical world, in some ways, is a reflection of the spiritual/supernatural realms, only maybe watered -down, and i do think that the gods can help and intervene in wars (e.g. for example, in Greek 'mythology', you have several Greek gods, such as Aphrodite, Ares, Athene, etc taking sides in the Trojan war, etc).


And about the "demoting"... I read it as Diana=Queen of Fairies, Danu=Queen of Gods... Even if Diana=Danu, that doesn't necessarily follow that Fairies=Gods. The statement GWB=Ruler of Texas is true (at least at some point in time, with a bit of flexibility on the word ruler), and GWB=Ruler of the USA is true. And while GWB might be the same, Texas does not equal USA... In the same vein, a person can be ruler/queen/president/whatever of two different groups (at the same time, even), having the same *function* and fulfilling the same *role*, but the two groups themselves being different. ^_^ So it might be with Danu and Diana.

Ok, that helps it explain it to me, so thanks :) (i think i must be dumb 'cause i always need things explained in kind of human-terms ;)).

So, Diana/Danu (if they're the same) could be ruler of the Celtic gods as well as being ruler of the Fae? (again, i might be wrong, but thanks for explaing it more for me :)).

[David19]

It often mirrors our realm to some degree. When I invoke an aristocracy, however, I am referring to a nobility of character within the faery realm that distinguishes them from more nasty types. Increased nobility and responsibility often go together.

When you say it mirrors our realm to some degree, do you mean there might be similar things found in the Fae realm(s), for example, Fae tribes (just as you'd get human tribes, etc), or a military (i'm not sure if the Fae have any type of supernatural army, but if there's an aristocract and a king and queen (or kings and queens?), then there'd probably be an army (again, that's just a guess on my part).

Also, what about the personalities of the Fae, for example, would you get Fae that are as varied as humans e.g. would you get kind Fae, sociopathic or psychotic Fae, etc?.

Sorry, if that's a lot of questions but it's something i am curious about :).

[David19]

I'm not following this line of argument at all.

On the one hand, you seem to be referencing a quasi-British Elfin 'Kingdom' in discussing the Little Buggers, but Diana is Roman. I am not very familiar with ancient Italian lore, but I feel certain that the Roman perception of 'spirits' does not mirror that of the British Isles. Nyads, Dryads, et al are very place-specific and do not seem to have an 'aristocracy' but answer directly to the Gods/desses. I think that if you're going to refer to "F***ies" then you also have to specify what culture's Gentry you're referring to.

On the other hand, apart from having similar names I still don't see any correspondence. Danu is connected to a specific river---if Diana has some association with 'marshiness', that's not the same thing.

On the gripping hand, I also had never heard any association between 'Diana' (Roman) and 'Queen of the F.....' (British/Celtic Group). If one googles 'Goddess Diana' the first 2 pages have no points that reference this either. A few of the less scholarly sites add a modern association as the 'Queen of the Witches' but that's all.

So, yes, can you provide a citation for your assertion?

I think i agree with you, Danu is associated with a specific river, and from what a Celtic recon told me (on another board), Danu was more a god that was carried with the Celts to new lands, etc.

Diana seems more a god who isn't associated with a specific river (she may have associations with water or something, i'm not sure?).

Also, i'd agree when i'd say the supernatural beings and spirits that the Romans talked about may have been different to those that were in Celtic and British belief e.g. like you said Dryads, nymphs, etc were associated with trees, water, specific things, the Fae seem to be less concerned with specific things and more free or something (hope that made some sense :)).

Also, didn't Diana have some lesbian connections (i know Artemis does, although i read a post of Raven Grimassi's here, which seemed to indicate they were different gods, in their personalities, etc), but i'm not sure if Danu did.

Edit: Off topic: but out of curiousity, how come you spell the Fae like F***ies, as i've never seen it spelt like that?.

Anyway, just wanted to ask, i hope you don't mind :).

[Carla O'Harris]

Let's not let a particularist concern with local variant names confuse us from seeing the perfectly valid class that holds all of these together. That would be losing the forest for the trees.

[skilly-nilly]

Edit: Off topic: but out of curiousity, how come you spell the Fae like F***ies, as i've never seen it spelt like that?.

Anyway, just wanted to ask, i hope you don't mind :).

I view the Little Buggers in a very traditional, non-Lord-of-the-Rings way. It's considered unlucky to use the name F***y--so the tradition is to use other referentials so as to avoid attracting their attention:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2847488#post2847488

[Eran]

And, of course, the massacre of the Celtic Druids by the Romans, an Imperialist army, if Diana and Danu are the same, why would she let one of her peoples kill another of her set of worshippers?.
Good question. If the Jesus of the Protestants is the same as the Jesus of the Catholics, what's up with Ireland? Must be entirely unrelated gods.

Heck, if the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims all recognize the same Jehovah - well, that's not possible, or the Crusades could not have happened, and anti-Semitism couldn't exist. Must be no connection there at all.

[Carla O'Harris]

Can we get back on thread here?

[skilly-nilly]

Let's not let a particularist concern with local variant names confuse us from seeing the perfectly valid class that holds all of these together. That would be losing the forest for the trees.


What, apart from the fact that their Goddesses who'se Names sound somewhat alike is " the perfectly valid class that holds all of these together"?

You've pointed to shared wetness, which seems quite a reach to me. You conflated 'Queen of Her Tuath' with your unsupported claim that Diana is 'Queen of the F***ies'.

You made another claim about Diana that 'there is evidence to indicate that at one time she may have been thought of as having a mother-aspect". But seriously, isn't She the Goddess Who turned some guy into a deer for looking at Her bathing and then contrived to have him hunted by his own hounds? (in modern times transmuted into a lesbian Goddess).

This is soooooo different from Danu--had sex with this one, had sex with that one; had a child by this father, had one by that father.

I just can't see the connection.

[Morgandria]

I'm with Skilly on this one - it's too much of a stretch, even if I was a soft polytheist (which I'm not).

[Carla O'Harris]

Right, you can't see the connection. Believe me, Diana was considered a Queen of Fairies in several contexts. Amongst the Calusari, amongst Florentine witches, in medieval times, and remember that even in classical times, she always had a train of nymphs with her! So the connection with Danu, Queen of the Fairies is not far fetched at all.

As far as her sexuality goes, one has to understand that if there is a connection between Diana and Danu (we haven't positively established one yet ; this will require investigation -- skepticism merely stops the process of investigation cold), it would be from an archaic period that would allow for different traditions to develop their ideas about her in different ways. This difference in emphasis at an early stage of splitting off from each other can develop later into what appears to be a major difference. One has to be subtle in one's thinking in these matters.

[Eran]

Can we get back on thread here?

Agreed.

I think what we're seeing is the same "hard polytheist" vs "soft polytheist" argument we've seen in other places.

There is one variety of viewpoint - it is possible to see cultural connections and similarities and historical connections, in which one form can evolve into another, be merged with another, split into two or more forms, and in which similar forms from different times or places or cultures can be seen as intimately related, theologicaly or historically. This view tends to emphasize similarities and themes.

There is another view which is more particularist, and which tends to emphasize differences and details, and which sees each form as unique and unrelated to other forms.

There are extreme versions in both of these, and there are infinitely many points in between, in a continuum between "All is One" and "each is absolutely separate."

People at the extremes will not be swayed from those viewpoints, regardless of evidence or logic; there are similarities, there are differences, and each school will point to what it whats to emphasize.

Those of us in the middle can understand and appreciate the different viewpoints, and we tend to consider the merits of individual cases on questions such as "Is this deity-form related, in a meangful way, to that one?" People in the middle tend to say, "Maybe. Let's see what the evidence and arguments are." People on one extreme would say "Yes! Of course!" People on the other end would say "No, give me more proof!"

So - Is there a relationship between Danu and Diana? There is evidence for it (historical, cultural, thematic, and mythological), and there are differences between them. So it depends on where you fall in the continuum.

[Carla O'Harris]

Good point. It stands to reason that those automatically committed against a hypothesis are probably not going to do much work investigating it.

[skilly-nilly]

Believe me, ....... is not far fetched at all.

One has to be subtle in one's thinking in these matters.

:fpartyman This is sounding like a bunch of waffle :fpartyfav

Maybe you would like there to be a connection, but I disagree. Without anything other than the most tenuous of connections I will have to just leave it at 'I see no connection'.

Unless you're going to bring something other than your UPG to the discussion I don't see any reason to go 'round and 'round about it.

[Carla O'Harris]

What the Hel are you talking about? Did you even bother to read all of the material that I assembled? Have you bothered to assemble even half of that material? I grant that the very preliminary material I have assembled hardly proves the case, but it at least provides some suggestive beginnings.

[David19]

Good point. It stands to reason that those automatically committed against a hypothesis are probably not going to do much work investigating it.

But, would that mean that you, yourself, want to see Diana and Danu as the same, so you're not going to be a neutral investigator either.

[skilly-nilly]

What the Hel are you talking about? Did you even bother to read all of the material that I assembled? Have you bothered to assemble even half of that material? I grant that the very preliminary material I have assembled hardly proves the case, but it at least provides some suggestive beginnings.

The first site you point to has one sentence:

"Dana" was a goddess of the ancient Britons. "Dana" (or "Tana") was an ancient Italian goddess, the earth mother who taught her people magic. "Danu" was the mother goddess of ancient India." which conflates Dana with a Greek Goddess Who'se Name sounds something like 'Diana.

Your 2nd point has one sentence:

"There is a Possible link between the name Dana/Danu, the name Dione, as goddess name in Greece, and the goddess name, Diana, as known by the Romans."

The author then goes on to discuss riverine Goddesses without mentioning Diana again.

As you point out, your 3rd point doesn't mention Diana. ?*

[Carla O'Harris]

Well, I'd be pleased if there were a relationship, but since I'm asking a question rather than declaring an answer, I would say that I'm open to how the evidence blossoms. I am intrigued enough by the positive possibility, however, that I will penetrate beyond any mere denials or false leads. I think it's worthy of some good investigation. That takes some staying power.

[Carla O'Harris]

The first site you point to has one sentence:

"Dana" was a goddess of the ancient Britons. "Dana" (or "Tana") was an ancient Italian goddess, the earth mother who taught her people magic. "Danu" was the mother goddess of ancient India." which conflates Dana with a Greek Goddess Who'se Name sounds something like 'Diana.

Your 2nd point has one sentence:

"There is a Possible link between the name Dana/Danu, the name Dione, as goddess name in Greece, and the goddess name, Diana, as known by the Romans."

The author then goes on to discuss riverine Goddesses without mentioning Diana again.

As you point out, your 3rd point doesn't mention Diana. ?*


But there is some suggestion that the Hindu figure Danu is associated with water and fertility. Additionally, she is considered the mother of a whole family of spirits. Similarly, the Celtic Danu/Dana is considered the mother of a whole family of spirits and associated with water and fertility. This seems significant. There seems to be an association in both cases with the word meaning something akin to "giving" or "abundant", which from an IE standpoint is significant.

It is true that in the Hindu case the family of spirits mothered by Danu is considered to be negative, but one of the characteristics of the splits between the various Indo-European peoples seems to be on the level of choosing sides between various deity groups, say, between the asuras and the daevas, with different geographic groups taking different positions. Since we know this is the case in the relationship between the Hindu-Vedic and the Iranian choices, it would not be beyond measure for there to be a relationship between a Hindu Danu generally considered to be negative at some point in her history, and a Celtic Danu considered to be mainly positive. However, the evidence from the temples in Bali that I assembled does argue for a strata where the Indic Danu was considered a beneficent goddess. This may represent either an earlier strata than that recorded in Rig Veda, a parallel tradition not recorded in Rig Veda or shared by it, or a later development.

So far, we have established a plausible possibility of connection between the Hindu Danu and the Celtic Dana, and have discovered that we are not the first to posit this. This means already that there is a significant possibility of an Indo-European provenance to the Danu figure.

We have yet to establish a connection between either of these figures and Diana in any strong sense, but the connection of Diana as Queen of the Fairies and a Mistress of the Waters, and Danu as a Queen of her tribe of Fairies and associated with waters is intriguing, and worthy of further investigation.

[Fiamma]

Right, you can't see the connection. Believe me, Diana was considered a Queen of Fairies in several contexts. Amongst the Calusari, amongst Florentine witches, in medieval times, and remember that even in classical times, she always had a train of nymphs with her! So the connection with Danu, Queen of the Fairies is not far fetched at all.

As far as her sexuality goes, one has to understand that if there is a connection between Diana and Danu (we haven't positively established one yet ; this will require investigation -- skepticism merely stops the process of investigation cold), it would be from an archaic period that would allow for different traditions to develop their ideas about her in different ways. This difference in emphasis at an early stage of splitting off from each other can develop later into what appears to be a major difference. One has to be subtle in one's thinking in these matters.

Nymphs and fairies aren't exactly the same thing....

[Carla O'Harris]

Of course they're not exactly the same thing ; but functionally, they're often practically the same. Let's just say they have significant overlaps. And northern Europeans would have recognized them as fairies, just as Greeks would have recognized fairies as nymphs, or at least "close enough for rock and roll", as we say in the modern world.

[raven grimassi]

I seem to have come late to the party. ;)

Here are some things to add to what is brewing here in the cauldron:

Scholar James MacKillop (Dictionary of Celtic Mythology) equates Dana with Ana, the latter being the older form to which a "D" has been added later.

In the book The Druids, by Ward Rutherford, the author argues for an association between the Irish goddess Dana and the Mediterranean goddess Diana. The author notes a connection between the prefix of both names (as indicating divinity); Dana is D-ana and Diana is Di-ana.

Among other derivations, the name Diana comes from the Latin Diviana (the literal translation would be "the divine Ana" and Dana can translate as "the goddess Ana.").

Robert Graves, in his book The White Goddess, states that the Tuatha de Danann were Bronze Age Pelasgians who worshipped Danae. According to Janet and Stewart Farrar, in The Witches' Goddess, this coincides with Irish tradition as reflected in the Lebor Gabala Erenn.

Now whether this Danae is the Greek figure associated with the myth of Perseus or an archaic Greek goddess, I do not know. But the connection to Danae being cast into the sea in a closed trunk, and the meaning of "Pelasgi" being "children of the sea" seems like a compelling connection ( in essence, the children of Danae).

On an interesting side note, Graves uses the spelling "danaan" for the race of the Tuatha de Danann. In this light it is interesting to note that the word "Danaan" was a term used for all the Greeks (from Rhoda Hendrick's book Classical Gods and Heroes: Myths as told by the Ancient Authors). The Pelasgi eventually flee Greece due to political presssure and ultimately settle on an "island". I am wondering how the Pelasgi followers of Danae, with advanced weapons and general technology, might have been regarded by the relatively primitive tribes in Ireland circa 1200 bce (had they landed upon this shore). "Greetings, we are the Children of Danae"...

Turning now to Diana, here we need to understand the onion skin layers that have formed (the Romans being great eclectics). Diana, as the Romans knew her, is not Artemis. Artemis was chaste, but Diana had lovers in her myths (both male and female). This includes a mortal man.

Ultimately, the Roman Diana appears to be derived from the Etruscan goddess Atimite or Artimiti. Although indigenous to Italian soil, Atimite does seem to have later been influenced by Greek colonies. I think this is where the Romans confused the issue with Diana and her Artemis comparisons.

One thing to note is that at the cult center of Diana (Lake Nemi) many offerings of phallus figures have been uncovered by archaeologists, and we also know that expectant mothers gave offerings to Diana at Nemi for an easy childbirth. Neither the phallus nor the act of giving birth strike me as having much to do with a virgin goddess. Instead they seem to have more in common with Diana of Ephesus who was a mother goddess figure.

As to the water connection to Diana, there are two primary associations. One is the lake at Nemi itself, which the Romans called "Diana's Mirror" (because the moon reflected upon the lake as seen from her temple on the northeast shore). The second aspect related to water is Diana's aspect as the nymph Egeria, who was connected with the stream at Nemi that flowed into the lake.

I will go back and reply to specific posts on this thread, but for now just wanted to drop a few things into the brew.

[_Banbha_]

I seem to have come late to the party. ;)

Here are some things to add to what is brewing here in the cauldron:

Scholar James MacKillop (Dictionary of Celtic Mythology) equates Dana with Ana, the latter being the older form to which a "D" has been added later.

Here are some links that might explain how MacKillop came to those conclusions:
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/danu.html
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/anu.html
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/plantdon.html




In the book The Druids, by Ward Rutherford, the author argues for an association between the Irish goddess Dana and the Mediterranean goddess Diana. The author notes a connection between the prefix of both names (as indicating divinity); Dana is D-ana and Diana is Di-ana.

Rutherford is not a "scholary source" I would rely on. He seems to rely almost exclusively on sources that are dated. While I'm not one to throw Fraizers _The Golden Bough_ across the room with great force, I certainly would NOT rely on it unquestioningly.


Among other derivations, the name Diana comes from the Latin Diviana (the literal translation would be "the divine Ana" and Dana can translate as "the goddess Ana.").

Robert Graves, in his book The White Goddess, states that the Tuatha de Danann were Bronze Age Pelasgians who worshipped Danae. According to Janet and Stewart Farrar, in The Witches' Goddess, this coincides with Irish tradition as reflected in the Lebor Gabala Erenn.

Now whether this Danae is the Greek figure associated with the myth of Perseus or an archaic Greek goddess, I do not know. But the connection to Danae being cast into the sea in a closed trunk, and the meaning of "Pelasgi" being "children of the sea" seems like a compelling connection ( in essence, the children of Danae).

On an interesting side note, Graves uses the spelling "danaan" for the race of the Tuatha de Danann. In this light it is interesting to note that the word "Danaan" was a term used for all the Greeks (from Rhoda Hendrick's book Classical Gods and Heroes: Myths as told by the Ancient Authors). The Pelasgi eventually flee Greece due to political presssure and ultimately settle on an "island". I am wondering how the Pelasgi followers of Danae, with advanced weapons and general technology, might have been regarded by the relatively primitive tribes in Ireland circa 1200 bce (had they landed upon this shore). "Greetings, we are the Children of Danae"...

_The White Goddess: A historical grammar of Poetic myth_. :smile:

There has not been one greek weapon found in Ireland from the aforementioned period. And what would make you assume the indiginous inhabitants of Ireland were 'relatively primative' tribes? Barbarians to your Greeks perhaps? :nuhuh:

The peoples pre-Celtic Ireland gave us holy sites like Brugh na Boinne (Newgrange) and hundreds more that evidence a highly complex and deep understanding of their world in ways we as yet entirely understand ourselves.

In recent genetic studies, which admittedly are not conclusive, there is no evidence of Greek or Mediterranean peoples in Ireland. This does not preclude a possible cultural influence though.



Turning now to Diana, here we need to understand the onion skin layers that have formed (the Romans being great eclectics). Diana, as the Romans knew her, is not Artemis. Artemis was chaste, but Diana had lovers in her myths (both male and female). This includes a mortal man.

Ultimately, the Roman Diana appears to be derived from the Etruscan goddess Atimite or Artimiti. Although indigenous to Italian soil, Atimite does seem to have later been influenced by Greek colonies. I think this is where the Romans confused the issue with Diana and her Artemis comparisons.

One thing to note is that at the cult center of Diana (Lake Nemi) many offerings of phallus figures have been uncovered by archaeologists, and we also know that expectant mothers gave offerings to Diana at Nemi for an easy childbirth. Neither the phallus nor the act of giving birth strike me as having much to do with a virgin goddess. Instead they seem to have more in common with Diana of Ephesus who was a mother goddess figure.

As to the water connection to Diana, there are two primary associations. One is the lake at Nemi itself, which the Romans called "Diana's Mirror" (because the moon reflected upon the lake as seen from her temple on the northeast shore). The second aspect related to water is Diana's aspect as the nymph Egeria, who was connected with the stream at Nemi that flowed into the lake.

I will go back and reply to specific posts on this thread, but for now just wanted to drop a few things into the brew.

Interesting. :)

Just some thoughts:

I think it's a worthy to question exactly when Artemis became a chaste virgin. Artemis of Ephesus with her multiude of breasts or eggs is hardly virginal. Why would a chaste virgin also have links to being a goddess of midwives? And the myth of Artemis being twins with the younger (or should I say more recently arrived?) Apollo doen't make sense. Is it a later version of myth?

Zeus' seduction of Danae, perhaps a Goddess of the indiginous people, with a shower gold and then banished by her 'father' to the sea, sounds all the more like a a symbolic political/historical analology as it does myth. Or maybe there is just a clearer understanding when the myth is put into context of the many layers of various 'Greek' cultures and the various conquests which occured over time.

If you can make the association of Danae with Don/Dana back to Proto and Indo-European roots, it makes her an older goddess figure, pre-exsisting Zeus who was born in a cave in Crete. A relative infant?

[coaxialkettle]

http://www.darkages.com/community/his/Peppin_Tuatha.html


Robert Graves went far...
but not far Enough
danA is not danU
when it comes to sanskrit
or Zend for that matter
remembering Queen Moo
and the golden Tablets
long before Kurukshetra

"said the path would not be easy
and the journey would be slow"

[raven grimassi]

Rutherford is not a "scholary source" I would rely on. He seems to rely almost exclusively on sources that are dated. While I'm not one to throw Fraizers _The Golden Bough_ across the room with great force, I certainly would NOT rely on it unquestioningly.

I understand the caution, but then again, no one gets everything wrong, and one does not have to be a scholar in order to find a connection.


_The White Goddess: A historical grammar of Poetic myth_. :smile:

Personally, I give no less weight to the freedom of the poet who is in touch with spirit, than I do to the scholar that is restricted to his or her methodology.


There has not been one greek weapon found in Ireland from the aforementioned period.

I was not stating a fact, hence my use of the phrase wondering how they might have regarded the Greeks, had the Greeks ever landed on the shores of Ireland. It was a personal muse not a personal conviction.


And what would make you assume the indiginous inhabitants of Ireland were 'relatively primative' tribes? Barbarians to your Greeks perhaps? :nuhuh:

Naturally I was referring primarily to weapons and armor, as I am not aware of any items in Ireland that match the technology of the Greeks so early on. But I would be delighted to be pointed to evidence of equal or greater technology among the ancient people of Ireland cira 1200 bce. It is always of benefit to adjust an opinion to the facts, and you would have my thanks.


I think it's a worthy to question exactly when Artemis became a chaste virgin. Artemis of Ephesus with her multiude of breasts or eggs is hardly virginal. Why would a chaste virgin also have links to being a goddess of midwives? And the myth of Artemis being twins with the younger (or should I say more recently arrived?) Apollo doen't make sense. Is it a later version of myth?

Difficult to say, and I suspect a fork in the road somewhere. Some myths appear to be more political than they are remnants of earlier authentic beliefs. I think Artemis fell victim to this at some point. That is why I like to rely upon the earlier versions such as those of Hesiod as a foundation for further research. Take for example the goddess Hekate who first appears as a former Titan who reigned over the Three Worlds (essentially Above, Below, and In-between). In later times she is diminished to a goddess associated with the dead.


Zeus' seduction of Danae, perhaps a Goddess of the indiginous people, with a shower gold and then banished by her 'father' to the sea, sounds all the more like a a symbolic political/historical analology as it does myth. Or maybe there is just a clearer understanding when the myth is put into context of the many layers of various 'Greek' cultures and the various conquests which occured over time.

No, I think you are right about politics. But the most effective lies are built upon the truth, and so the people who re-worked the old myths had to use the pre-existing format, to which they could add, edit, and adjust as needed. Therefore we can still gain insights into these myths by cross-examination with earlier ones and with parallel ones.


If you can make the association of Danae with Don/Dana back to Proto and Indo-European roots, it makes her an older goddess figure, pre-exsisting Zeus who was born in a cave in Crete. A relative infant?

An interesting thought, and I wish time allowed for such an adventure.

[Carla O'Harris]

This is getting juicier!! Thank you, Raven, for joining the discussion! You have added to the pot many rich things for us to digest and process!

I especially appreciate your differentiating Diana from the "chaste" model. In general deities tend to escape the bureaucratic functional boxes there seems to be a desire to place them into, and we are dealing with very complex layers of strata with all of them.

We can now see clearly that Diana could have both fertility and motherly aspects, and that she can be associated with lakes.

It could end up in our investigation that we find no etymological connection between these various goddesses, but etymological coincidences that are accompanied by rich associational convergences. At this point we would need to remember that the folk tend to follow associational convergences in their folk etymologies, and thus the possibility of real grassroots connections becomes possible.

[_Banbha_]

I understand the caution, but then again, no one gets everything wrong, and one does not have to be a scholar in order to find a connection.

That wasn't my point though. There are sources that have been proven to be dated given recent archaeological finds and as well as the influence of prevailing cultural attitudes at the turn of the last century being just plain dated. Where you are getting your information is directly related to it's value whether you are a 'scholar' or not.


Personally, I give no less weight to the freedom of the poet who is in touch with spirit, than I do to the scholar that is restricted to his or her methodology.

I'm glad you clarified that. As far as scholars go, not all hold to the same standards either. Some are more reliable than others and there are those who can strike a careful balance with poetry and myth and still have their feet on the ground. There are distinctions to be made and quality is important for me.



I was not stating a fact, hence my use of the phrase wondering how they might have regarded the Greeks, had the Greeks ever landed on the shores of Ireland. It was a personal muse not a personal conviction.

Understood. I was aware in my reply to you this was a personal opinion.


Naturally I was referring primarily to weapons and armor, as I am not aware of any items in Ireland that match the technology of the Greeks so early on. ...And you said "general technology" in addition to weapons.



But I would be delighted to be pointed to evidence of equal or greater technology among the ancient people of Ireland cira 1200 bce. It is always of benefit to adjust an opinion to the facts, and you would have my thanks.

Still, I would like to know why you would consider the people of Ireland circa 1200 BCE "primative"?

Given the fact that from my readings of your posts, here and abouts, we agree there was trading of products in the ancient world and a resulting exchange of culture and ideas. I never claimed their weapons superior (but I will look into finding some good sites for edification and will share them, no matter the results.)

Still, why would this make them "primative"? This is an opinion one might get from reading too much 'turn of the last century scholarship,' me thinks. Carla did post this in Wicca; but I got the impression she wanted a "Celtic" perspective on this as well. So, I, as an Irish Reconstructionist, am curious about your opinion. :)



Difficult to say, and I suspect a fork in the road somewhere. Some myths appear to be more political than they are remnants of earlier authentic beliefs. I think Artemis fell victim to this at some point. That is why I like to rely upon the earlier versions such as those of Hesiod as a foundation for further research. Take for example the goddess Hekate who first appears as a former Titan who reigned over the Three Worlds (essentially Above, Below, and In-between). In later times she is diminished to a goddess associated with the dead.

Good points. :cheers:


No, I think you are right about politics. But the most effective lies are built upon the truth, and so the people who re-worked the old myths had to use the pre-existing format, to which they could add, edit, and adjust as needed. Therefore we can still gain insights into these myths by cross-examination with earlier ones and with parallel ones.

I agree.


An interesting thought, and I wish time allowed for such an adventure.

Me too. :D

[Carla O'Harris]

From http://www.maryjones.us/jce/anu.html (thank you for the link) :


*Danu is a hypotheical reconstruction from the possessive "Danann".


the goddess named Danand who appears in the LGE is not given as the mother of all the gods (impossibly anyway, since the text has been overwhelmingly euhemerized), but as the mother of "Brian, Iuchar, and Iucharba, the three gods of the Tuatha Dé Danann"

Is it just me, or does this seem like splitting hairs?

"Danand" is here listed as the mother of "the three gods" of "the Tuatha De Danaan". That would seem to connect her fairly thickly.

It seems likely that Lebor Gabála Érenn was synthesizing together a number of different traditions, just as Genesis brings together a number of traditions. Perhaps these are best seen as variants.


However, confusion sets in, as in some redactions of the text, their mother is given as Morrigan, in others as Brigit. Morrigan is then given as the title for a goddess named Anand (sometimes Anann), for whom the two mountains in Munster, Da Chich Anann--the Breasts of Anu--are named.

Ok, I don't have the knowledge-base to be able to say with any certainty with what kind of rubric the Irish monks were facing this mythological material, but it certainly seems theoretically possible they may have had access to late classical redactions of myth which tended to "bureaucratize" gods and goddesses, and thus may not have been able to see connections across these categories.

It may give the hard polytheists apoplexies, but perhaps the Irish did not draw hard-and-fast lines. Is it possible that if Brigit, Morrigan, and Danand are all listed as the mother of the "three gods of the Tuatha De Danaan" that they may have been seen as aspects of each other? (Implying what we would call a "soft polytheism" but which they might simply see as a polynymy speaking to different aspects of the same character.) The other possibility is that different tribes had different roughly analogous figures, but they were able to see their connections. The fact also remains that some of this could have been monkly confusion.


Meanwhile, according to the ninth century text of Sanas Cormaic, Anand is listed as "mother of the Irish gods." Again, in the LGE, Anand is one of the trio of sisters named Badb, Macha, and Anand.

Danand is the mother of the three gods of the Tuatha de Danaan. Danand may be identified in some redactions with Morrigan, which is a title for the goddess Anand. She may also be identified with Brigit, leaving us with a triplet of Danand, Morrigan-Anand, and Brigit.

Anand is the mother of the Irish gods, and one of a triplet.

I am seeing connections here. To me, this simply adds to the complexity of the richness. It doesn't take away from our discussion at all.

I do not see, however, how the author derives this :


So it is possible to assume, then, that Anand, as the Morrigan, was the mother of the Tuatha Dé Danann; however, she is not the same as Danand, which is a later conflation.

The latter conclusion is not really supported so far as I can tell.


Finally, what is worth noting is that this name appears in Welsh genealogies as Anna or Ana--and here is a varation on the name Don--

Again, seeming to demonstrate that the "D" is sometimes optional ... Perhaps a linguist could tell us whether the dropping or adding a "D" is normal in such cases. In any cases, I have read texts which demonstrate that regional dialects can add and drop off sounds which do not follow Grimm's rules, and therefore we must not be too hasty in overapplying them. Look at how Cockney English pronounces words, after all! It is at least possible to imagine a "D" being pronounced as a soft "th" with the tip of the tongue barely touching the roof of the mouth ... in this case, we are referring to the letter the Norse wrote as "ð". A really soft pronunciation of "ðana" could over time become almost silent, sounding virtually like "ana". Just something to think about.

[Carla O'Harris]

Carla did post this in Wicca; but I got the impression she wanted a "Celtic" perspective on this as well. So, I, as an Irish Reconstructionist...

Indeed, thank you for joining the discussion. Your expertise and greater knowledge in this particular regard may help shape the discussion.

[Faol-chù]

From http://www.maryjones.us/jce/anu.html (thank you for the link) :


the goddess named Danand who appears in the LGE is not given as the mother of all the gods (impossibly anyway, since the text has been overwhelmingly euhemerized), but as the mother of "Brian, Iuchar, and Iucharba, the three gods of the Tuatha Dé Danann"

Is it just me, or does this seem like splitting hairs?

It's not just you...It's anybody that has never studied the nuances of Irish myth. It's much simpler to just jumble it all up and assume it's the same.


"Danand" is here listed as the mother of "the three gods" of "the Tuatha De Danaan". That would seem to connect her fairly thickly.

Mary Jones' webpage, while informative, caters to those views which have been *popular* among English-speaking 'folklorists' since the late 1800's.

Linguists have been rethinking this etymology which related Dana/Danu/Anu. They think it's possible that they may have been references to different entities, and that, for that matter, one or more of them may have never actually *existed* as a revered god/dess.

Something else to think about...

'Danach' in Old Irish means 'artisan', or 'related to artisans'.

Modern 'dàn' in Gaelic means: doom, destiny, fate, or luck.
It also means, 'poetry'.
'Dàna' means - adventurous, arrogant, bold, confident, daring, foolhardy, impudent, and rash.


Perhaps the Tuatha de Danaan were a 'tribe' of adventurous, bold, arrogant, confident, daring, foolhardy, impudent, rash, poetic artisans...
And not at all designated to any 'goddess named Dana'.


It seems likely that Lebor Gabála Érenn was synthesizing together a number of different traditions, just as Genesis brings together a number of traditions. Perhaps these are best seen as variants.

Yes, it was. But it did more than that. It seems to have been an attempt to put together a very self-conscious written 'national mythology' (modeled largely after Greek myth)...In large part to thwart cultural onslaught by the Vikings and their descendants. Some of the characters in it were purely literary. The idea was to make their point in the minds of those who would read and/or hear it.



Ok, I don't have the knowledge-base to be able to say with any certainty with what kind of rubric the Irish monks were facing this mythological material, but it certainly seems theoretically possible they may have had access to late classical redactions of myth which tended to "bureaucratize" gods and goddesses, and thus may not have been able to see connections across these categories.

Well, yes, they most certainly *did* have access to not only 'redactions', but oral tradition.
But the point you are missing is that nearly *all* myths (except, perhaps, those related to personal things like childbirth, and other things that were the domain of women) were bureaucratized, well before Christianity. That is (and was) part of the function of myth since myths started to be passed.
You know...it's human nature to take a good thing and try to exploit it for power purposes...and the pre-Christian ancients, Celtic, Hindu, Germanic, Greek, Roman, Hebrew, et al, *all* did this. It was accepted and EXPECTED of leaders of people.
There was no such thing as 'separation of church and state'...
For that matter, for the pre-Christian Celts, there was no separation of their 'religion' and the rest of their lives.

[Carla O'Harris]

Thank you for your points.

You say,


Perhaps the Tuatha de Danaan were a 'tribe' of adventurous, bold, arrogant, confident, daring, foolhardy, impudent, rash, poetic artisans...
And not at all designated to any 'goddess named Dana'.

It's also possible that these concepts are related.

[coaxialkettle]

http://baharna.com/celtic/index.htm
if yr memory serves ye well...
http://www.tuatha.org/horslips/symphony.html
much can be said,but...arrogant???

[Faol-chù]

http://baharna.com/celtic/index.htm


Another source...

Danu and Bile- Primordial Parents?

http://www.mythicalireland.com/mythology/tuathade/danubile.html


PS...The man who wrote this is a linguist, and a Celtic scholar.

[raven grimassi]

Understood. I was aware in my reply to you this was a personal opinion.

Let me try and correct this once again. I was not stating an opinion, I was musing. Two different things.


Still, I would like to know why you would consider the people of Ireland circa 1200 BCE "primative"?

Well, first let me say that I certainly did not intend it in a negative or demeaning way. As a Pagan, I am rather fond of the primitive. :)


Given the fact that from my readings of your posts, here and abouts, we agree there was trading of products in the ancient world and a resulting exchange of culture and ideas. I never claimed their weapons superior (but I will look into finding some good sites for edification and will share them, no matter the results.)

Still, why would this make them "primative"? This is an opinion one might get from reading too much 'turn of the last century scholarship,' me thinks...So, I, as an Irish Reconstructionist, am curious about your opinion. :)

Please note that I am using "primitive" in its anthropological sense, which is about tribal structure. In my example I used the term primitive in comparison of two cultures at a specific time period. If I recall correctly we are talking about the late Bronze Age. Clearly at this time in history Greek culture was more advanced in terms of architecture,weapondry, art expression, etc. This does not make the Greeks superior in character or nobility (the important things), but I think it does demonstrate greater technological achievements.

I will be out of town for a few days, back on Sunday, so I will check back then.

Peace - Raven

[_Banbha_]

Thank you for your points.

You say,

Perhaps the Tuatha de Danaan were a 'tribe' of adventurous, bold, arrogant, confident, daring, foolhardy, impudent, rash, poetic artisans...
And not at all designated to any 'goddess named Dana'.
It's also possible that these concepts are related.Good point! :hahugh:


http://baharna.com/celtic/index.htm
if yr memory serves ye well...
http://www.tuatha.org/horslips/symphony.html
much can be said,but...arrogant???

Not you, not ever. Nice links. :cheers:


Another source...

Danu and Bile- Primordial Parents?

http://www.mythicalireland.com/mythology/tuathade/danubile.html


PS...The man who wrote this is a linguist, and a Celtic scholar.

Alexei is wonderful and that's a great article. It was a main source in the Mary Jones article on Anu (http://www.maryjones.us/jce/anu.html) I posted. :D Here's a link to another article from the old Imbas site of his Basic Celtic Diety Types (http://www.imbas.org/articles/basic_celtic_deity_types.html) that might be of interest. There is a links page and more articles on the Imbas site you might find helpful as well, C.
While Alexei is wonderful (I'll repeat!) and respected, his not the only valuable opinion on lingustic interpretations. There are always competing theories.

If you're interested in books on these subjects I'd recommend checking the The CR FAQ Reading List (http://www.paganachd.com/faq/readinglist.html) for some worthy titles.

[_Banbha_]

Let me try and correct this once again. I was not stating an opinion, I was musing. Two different things.

Musing, a personal opinion...I can see you want to put a fine point to it and I'm okay with that. Whatever you say. I was trying to be clear you understood that I did not think at any time you were stating facts. That was the important distiction I was trying to make to your first misunderstanding you had in my intial reply to you. Phew.

You were the source, whether it be personal opinion or musing matters not at all to me. Why should it?

You know, I didn't reply to your post to cause a stir. And I did not post on another thread, as you did, that you could come over to post in this thread to see what trouble you could stir up. You weren't kidding, were you? _wedgie_


Well, first let me say that I certainly did not intend it in a negative or demeaning way. As a Pagan, I am rather fond of the primitive. :)
Quaint sentiment. :)


Please note that I am using "primitive" in its anthropological sense, which is about tribal structure. In my example I used the term primitive in comparison of two cultures at a specific time period. If I recall correctly we are talking about the late Bronze Age. Clearly at this time in history Greek culture was more advanced in terms of architecture,weapondry, art expression, etc. This does not make the Greeks superior in character or nobility (the important things), but I think it does demonstrate greater technological achievements.

Primitive in the anthropological sense (and it was my assumption you were using the word thusly :whatgives) means much the same in that it's a tribal society lacking complexity. The Irish lived in a completely different enviroment with different requiements for survival. (and lacking complexity is the last thing anyone who studies Irish culture would say about them.) You are perhaps comparing apples and oranges here? And more advanced in art expression, is that a musing or an opinion or a considered fact? I dare not speculate with a perscriptivist.

Obviously, I don't buy into your opinions, musings and paternalistic views on this issue. To each his own.


I will be out of town for a few days, back on Sunday, so I will check back then.

Peace - Raven

And peace to you. :cheers:

[raven grimassi]

I didn't reply to your post to cause a stir. And I did not post on another thread, as you did, that you could come over to post in this thread to see what trouble you could stir up. You weren't kidding, were you? _wedgie_

Actually, yes, I was kidding. Had I been serious, I would have writtten that in a private message, and not in public.


I dare not speculate with a perscriptivist.

I think you meant prescriptivist.



Obviously, I don't buy into your opinions, musings and paternalistic views on this issue. To each his own.

Seems like an unnecessary personal comment.

[_Banbha_]

I think you meant prescriptivist.



Seems like an unnecessary personal comment.

I will not even be led to wonder how you could come to such a conclusion.

...and despite having such 'personal' sensitivities, you're still going to try to score a point on a typo. :lol:

[Dawa Lhamo]

Can we get back to the topic at hand, please?

I'm very interested in the original topic (and where the conversation on it might lead), but this bickering just gets tedious...

_inabox_

[raven grimassi]

On the one hand, you seem to be referencing a quasi-British Elfin 'Kingdom' in discussing the Little Buggers, but Diana is Roman. I am not very familiar with ancient Italian lore, but I feel certain that the Roman perception of 'spirits' does not mirror that of the British Isles. Nyads, Dryads, et al are very place-specific and do not seem to have an 'aristocracy' but answer directly to the Gods/desses.

It is difficult to say with any certainty where the connection between Diana and Faeries originates. There may be an argument in the fact that Artemis was associated with nymphs, and in the legends of Diana we find them as well in her company of female companions. This is addressed, in part, in the book Greek Folk Religion, by Martin Nilsson (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1961).

On page 15 we find:

"There is a great goddess who is very similar to the nymphs and who is accompanied by nymphs. She is called Artemis, 'Lady of the Wild Places.' She haunts the mountains and the meadows; she is connected with the tree cult and with springs and rivers; she protects women in childbirth; and she watches over little children"


On pages 16 - 17, we read this reference to Artemis:

"The Greek peasant of today still believes in the nymphs, though he gives them all the old name of the sea nymphs Neraids. They haunt the same places, they have the same appearance and the same occupations, and the same tales told of them. It is remarkable that they have a queen, called 'the Great Lady,' 'the Fair Lady,' or even 'the Queen of the Mountains."

[Carla O'Harris]

And ... if I may add ... the fact that the word for "fairies" in many places all over Europe is taken directly from the word for "Diana", and has been such since at least the 400's, clinches the argument that Diana is connected to the fairies, and that whatever they had been called previously (nymphs, etc.) a commonality was perceived, not only by clergymen, but more importantly, by the common folk, who utilized the Diana-term for their fairy-folk.

[raven grimassi]

And ... if I may add ... the fact that the word for "fairies" in many places all over Europe is taken directly from the word for "Diana", and has been such since at least the 400's, clinches the argument that Diana is connected to the fairies, and that whatever they had been called previously (nymphs, etc.) a commonality was perceived, not only by clergymen, but more importantly, by the common folk, who utilized the Diana-term for their fairy-folk.

Good point, and in fact the term dianae was used by St. Martin to refer to spirits that accompanied Diana. Julio Baroja (The World of Witches, University of Chicago Press, 1975) mentions St. Martin and the belief in spirits known as the dianae (among country folk in the north-western regions of the Iberian peninsula).

Scholar Diane Purkiss mentions some interesting connections in her book At the Bottom of the Garden: A Dark History of Fairies, Hobgoblins, and Other Troublesome Things (New York University Press, 2000). She states that the "good folk" were led by the goddess Diana, whom she equates with Epona:

"Her Celtic equivalent, the goddess Epona, whom Carlo Ginzurg sees as central to all these stories, was also responsible for ferrying the souls of the dead over to the land of death, a role that links her naturally with fairies in their roles as links between the living and the dead, or as the dead or almost-dead themselves" - page 142 - 143

Purkiss also links the Germanic Diana with the Roman Diana, and points to fairy aspects within this cult.