Where did all the spirits go?

[Kahlil the Heretic]

It was several months ago that I suspended my disbelief and skepticism to go on some sort of spiritual journey. I lit candles, prayed, tried meditating, asked God to lead me to truth, picked flowers for an alter that I made, burned incense, smudged myself and my room, bought countless books on the pursuit of God and on metaphysics, and did countless other goofy mamadas and absolutely nothing came of it. I don't feel any more fulfilled or closer to some universal truth.

I just had it out with God. Not nessesarily the Christian God, just God...the one God of the Universe, if He exists. I'm angry because of His refusal to reveal Himself to me. I'm pissed because after all this searching and crap I've yet to see anything more than a few easily explainable coincidences, and frankly, I'm fed up. I'm sick of persuing a silent God who people insist loves me yet can't even mutter a single word to me. And this applies to the God or gods of all faiths. I feel so stupid now for thinking that some mysterious, all powerful boogie man is out there watching us and ready to zap us with lightning or give us his blessing. I'm sick of asking bearded wackos in trench-coats or robes about their hokey religion only to get a cryptic, dramatic, fluffy-assed answer like, "The truth is within you" or some other Yoda-esque bullshit.

I have been tempted lately to take drastic measures. If the spiritual world will refuse to come to me, then perhaps I will have to force it out, like by some kind of ritual or defamation of a certain god's image. The way I see it, if they don't exist, then they can't hurt me. If they do exist and mess me up, then I can rejoice knowing that some other deeper spiritual world exists out there, and I'll win in the end. I've tried the kind, contemplative, patient worshippy route, now maybe its time I tried to yank them out of their spiritual hiding places, whatever they are.

I feel so stupid for actually expecting and believing that maybe, juuuuust maybe, this next time that I pray something magical is gonna happen. What a fool I've been. I was raging before I wrote this message...raging at God. I haven't felt such anger, such passion in a long time...part of me wonders if it will make him hate and punish me, or take pity on me. After all, if he is omnipotent he must be understanding of my situation. Either way, it is interesting how I can rage at something that may or may not exist

This is a rant, I know, but I'm angry. I'm sick and tired of dissapointment after dissapointment, and frankly I'm ready to go postal on the spiritual realm. Of course it's probably just talk, I need to cool down.

[Windygo]

Sometimes you don't find things until you stop looking. That is, sometimes we get so caught up in the search that the thing you're looking for is right under your nose.

It's also a good lesson in faith. Sometimes, you have to find what you believe in without any proof. Perhaps this frustration is meant to teach you that...

[BlackMagicalCat]

It was several months ago that I suspended my disbelief and skepticism to go on some sort of spiritual journey. I lit candles, prayed, tried meditating, asked God to lead me to truth, picked flowers for an alter that I made, burned incense, smudged myself and my room, bought countless books on the pursuit of God and on metaphysics, and did countless other goofy mamadas and absolutely nothing came of it. I don't feel any more fulfilled or closer to some universal truth.

I just had it out with God. Not nessesarily the Christian God, just God...the one God of the Universe, if He exists. I'm angry because of His refusal to reveal Himself to me. I'm pissed because after all this searching and crap I've yet to see anything more than a few easily explainable coincidences, and frankly, I'm fed up. I'm sick of persuing a silent God who people insist loves me yet can't even mutter a single word to me. And this applies to the God or gods of all faiths. I feel so stupid now for thinking that some mysterious, all powerful boogie man is out there watching us and ready to zap us with lightning or give us his blessing. I'm sick of asking bearded wackos in trench-coats or robes about their hokey religion only to get a cryptic, dramatic, fluffy-assed answer like, "The truth is within you" or some other Yoda-esque bullshit.

I have been tempted lately to take drastic measures. If the spiritual world will refuse to come to me, then perhaps I will have to force it out, like by some kind of ritual or defamation of a certain god's image. The way I see it, if they don't exist, then they can't hurt me. If they do exist and mess me up, then I can rejoice knowing that some other deeper spiritual world exists out there, and I'll win in the end. I've tried the kind, contemplative, patient worshippy route, now maybe its time I tried to yank them out of their spiritual hiding places, whatever they are.

I feel so stupid for actually expecting and believing that maybe, juuuuust maybe, this next time that I pray something magical is gonna happen. What a fool I've been. I was raging before I wrote this message...raging at God. I haven't felt such anger, such passion in a long time...part of me wonders if it will make him hate and punish me, or take pity on me. After all, if he is omnipotent he must be understanding of my situation. Either way, it is interesting how I can rage at something that may or may not exist

This is a rant, I know, but I'm angry. I'm sick and tired of dissapointment after dissapointment, and frankly I'm ready to go postal on the spiritual realm. Of course it's probably just talk, I need to cool down.

Well,maybe you did get an answer,but you missed it,or didnt regonize it.
Or Perhaps when your answer comes,it wont be what you want to hear.
You may not recieve it.

I believe you were heard the first time,and your answer will come in Gods time.
You need patience.

May you be blessed in life,and find all that your heart crys out for.

[LostSheep]

Sometimes you don't find things until you stop looking. That is, sometimes we get so caught up in the search that the thing you're looking for is right under your nose.

It's also a good lesson in faith. Sometimes, you have to find what you believe in without any proof. Perhaps this frustration is meant to teach you that...

very good way of putting it. ... I think the secret is to not look, to let it come to you, just accept whatever you feel is right. If the spiritual world will refuse to come to me, ... maybe that's the problem, you've been trying to make it come to you rather than letting it come to you when you and it are ready for each other?

(Sorry if that was too Yoda-esque. :( )

[Kahlil the Heretic]

I doubt that God would send me a message that He knew I wouldn't understand. To do something like that would be futile.

Most people would say that I have the "free will" to believe a message or not, but I feel that free will is BS. Human beings are dust in the wind, we are victims of circumstance.

So what do I do? Just stop looking and caring? I'll admit it would be nice to finally get all that pressure off my back...but I feel that I'll never find anything because of the way my mind interprets things. I'm skeptical. I don't believe any old crap I hear and I loathe ignorance and superstition. I won't believe anything short of God appearing before me, and I hope that God is wise enough to realize that my mind works in this fashion.

[ModernKnight]

Your worldview determines how you interpret everything you see, hear, etc. Everything that is outside of your worldview is ignored. In your case, divine messages are outside of how you percieve the world, yet you want to percieve them. The problem is not with the nature of the messages, the problem is the way in which you choose to interpret them.

[Ahautenites]

The Ultimate Truth is that "Life is what you make of it." By not answering, God is telling you to figure out "what Life means to you" for yourself. :)

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume He isn't there?

[Mershana]

Small miracles happen every day. Spiritual messages come in small packages as well as large. Maybe you are trying to hard to see something grand and need to see the little things that go on around you. Faith needs to come before for most of us. and instead of demanding a response maybe you nned to quiet your self and make sure your listening instead of doing all the talking.
Start by taking a walk or sitting somewhere quiet and think and thank God for all the things in your life. Make sure you include some of the bad because with out them we wouldn't learn, but God is there and a message or a peace will come to you when you are quiet. I speak as a person who tried to demand and discovered the problem was I just wasn't listening to the answer, because it wasn't always what I wanted to here.

The man who lived on a mountain chops wood and carries water.
The enlighten man also chops would and carries water.

Maybe God has answered you by sending you all these people to share his/her love with you at MW.
God is there just listen.:wave:

[mtpathy]

It was several months ago that I suspended my disbelief and skepticism to go on some sort of spiritual journey. I lit candles, prayed, tried meditating, asked God to lead me to truth, picked flowers for an alter that I made, burned incense, smudged myself and my room, bought countless books on the pursuit of God and on metaphysics, and did countless other goofy mamadas and absolutely nothing came of it. I don't feel any more fulfilled or closer to some universal truth.

if you do all of these things to find a spacific god what your going to find
instead is supestitions and reterict, rules and laws.
all of the things you said are supposed to be symbolic of the changes that
one makes inside themselves, lighting a candle is only lighting a candle the
power is found in its metaphore of lighting your mind, a flower to lay on a
alter is just a flower unless you learn to see & decorate your inward alter.
you wont find any of these things by trying to meditate, don't try to meditate
just meditate.

[alwaysfallingup]

I have had a crisis of faith, too. It was several years ago. The one thing I learned was that no one can change that for me. I couldn't ask other people's help, because what worked for them wouldn't work for me. We can be here for you and offer support, but we can't tell you what will work or what to do. Because it won't work that way. This is your dark night alone, and all we can do is remind you that we're listening.

I'm listening! :rubhead:

[Kahlil the Heretic]

maybe you nned to quiet your self and make sure your listening instead of doing all the talking.
Start by taking a walk or sitting somewhere quiet and think and thank God for all the things in your life. Make sure you include some of the bad because with out them we wouldn't learn, but God is there and a message or a peace will come to you when you are quiet. I speak as a person who tried to demand and discovered the problem was I just wasn't listening to the answer, because it wasn't always what I wanted to here.



I've tried it. It didn't work. And I'm not about to take something like a butterfly flying past my face as a sign from the divine, that's just silly.

[ModernKnight]

I've tried it. It didn't work. And I'm not about to take something like a butterfly flying past my face as a sign from the divine, that's just silly.

When I was first searching for the divine, I got a crystal clear answer.

Maybe the gods are avoiding you because they don't like you.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

If you're not going to contribute anything constructive, then shut your fundie mouth. This is a helping hands and hugs section, if you're going to be popping your head in just to be an asshole then don't bother coming in.

And I'm not just saying it because it's my thread, I'd have said the same thing if you had done it to anyone else in this section.

[ModernKnight]

I meant my comment in full honesty, with no offense intended. I can think of no other reason why you would be having such difficulty.

[Tasakii]

I can think of plenty of reasons she would be having difficulty.

It seems obvious to me that she wants one thing unless she gets that one mysterious thing, all you can do is dare her to change your mind.

I see MK trying to do a helpful thing. Pull the devils advocate on you. Not what you wanted to hear. There fore it wasn't acceptable.

You've attached some hard restrictions (versus guidelines) on the entities trying to help you.

Here. I'll Devil Advocate at you, telling you i'm about to.

Maybe they don't like you right now. Maybe your seen as a person who is very angry and afraid and closed and the other side doesn't feel like they can reach you, so your being left alone. Like when you tell your kids not to play with matches yet you keep finding them in thier hands and demanding that you describe the sensation as to why they shouldn't play with matches and what's the big deal about being burned anyway?

You want proof positive. Why? And why should you get epic tangible miracles of existance, when a single parent asking for tangible food isn't getting it?
What makes you so special?

Perhaps God is sick and twisted and is enjoying the anguish your feeling.
Perhaps your Satanic or Luciferian in nature and haven't relised it yet.

What is it about your life that makes you want to blame or receive comfort from God so badly? Until you deal with that, your head is going to be very loud.

You tried to find God through alter offerings, smudging and rituals? Forcing their hand? What makes you believe that it would be your most benevolent outcome to evoke or conjure the Source of All? What makes you think that if you got exactly what your asking for it, wouldn't hamper you down the road or the energy wouldn't fry the body your in?

I hope I ticked you off, or you became thoughtful. Either way means you either have an idea or your willing to open up to possibilities.

I can't tell you what to believe. I wouldn't want to. Your path to development is very individual.

You seem really distressed. I'm terribly sorry about that. I remember my time in the void. Not particularly pleasant. Where was the hope? What was going on? Is this really it? What if God IS bad?

I finally decided I hadn't a clue. That all this was way beyond me. I felt I was losing my very soul. This is kinda a private moment for me, so I don't want to hash it out in detail, But I remember the very moment I let go. I was laying in the van. I was (or hoping I was) talking to someone. I said, "I give, I don't know, I have no more expectations, I'm afraid, and I'm soul bruised. I can't hold on any longer. Please, if your there, don't lose me. Please... just don't let go. Because I just can't.." Then in my minds eye, I felt my already slipping fingers slide off the cliff. Something grabbed my wrist, and in the silence I heard, with seriousness and amusement. "I've got you. Your okay. Why would I possibly want to let you go?" and a wash of Love like... just thinking about it now fills me to the core and it's leaking out my eyes.

From that moment, I learned the value of silence. Or better, of listening. Once I stopped and listened, the more I listened, the easier it became to hear. Once receptive and practiced, I notice things all the time now.

The other day, I forgot the name of one of my crystals. It was driving me nuts. My mind churning trying to remember. I walked into the other room and saw one of my other stones. "Charolite" I thought. "No, Selinite" I heard. "Thanks" I said. As I was already on my way to bed I lay down, and when I had settled and closed my eyes. "Was that really you?" I wondered.
On the inside of my left eyelid, I watched as a spark akin to a little star-meteor blazed a little trail. The accompanying feeling was personal. It was like a wave hello.

In both instances, I had been still and listened. Think of it like you and a friend are in the living room and your reading a book and your friend is talking to you. When your friend askes a question, you might have to say,
"What? Sorry, I didn't catch that. Oh, and when you do talk to me, I'm only going to listen if you write it on 10x15 size cards in Gothic lettering. 9x10 won't do, neither will regular script." Your cheating yourself, and hampering those that love and want to help you by demanding only within your guideline specifics.

Same thing. Stop being so busy and demanding and just listen. It takes awhile to get the hang of listening. (Quite longer then a month) At worst, You'll be a better listener. At best, you've found your friend.

Later, If you MUST, you could always try a between life regression. But even with that, you still need the ability to listen, let go, and concentrate.

I'm sorry, if I was a little rough on giving you a swift kick.

I hope I helped a little,

Tas

[mtpathy]

I've tried it. It didn't work. And I'm not about to take something like a butterfly flying past my face as a sign from the divine, that's just silly.

agreed people place way to much significants on how they feel, and on coincidence, none of this plays a part.
people who say you have to have faith are people that don't have personel experience to back up their assumptions, never believe second hand knowledge when you can learn it on your own.
forget everythig about what you think god should or shouldnt be, and delve
head first into the exploration of meditation if you genuinley want to under-
stand practice this till you do.
this is a hell of alot harder then it sounds, but by doing this you will find your answer.

[Merrilyn]

Kahlil, maybe there is no god. Maybe it's all imagination. Maybe for you, it's some thing else. Maybe everything you've been trying is smoke & mirrors, and will never be anything more to you.
That's cool. I commend you for trying.
I don't believe in god. I can't adhere to the concept of deity. I just feel there's much more to us and this universe than just dust.
I don't pretend to know. I've never had an answer either way. All I know is that I feel spirit in me, and I've seen that spirit in so many ways manifested. I don't mean spooks & signs here. I mean, spirit. Heart. Whatcha got inside. That's as far as I need to look.
You'll be a'ight, man. :hugz:

[Kahlil the Heretic]

I can think of plenty of reasons she would be having difficulty.

I’m a guy. Or were you referring to God?

It seems obvious to me that she wants one thing unless she gets that one mysterious thing, all you can do is dare her to change your mind.

I don’t understand this, are you referring to God and I as females?

I see MK trying to do a helpful thing. Pull the devils advocate on you. Not what you wanted to hear. There fore it wasn't acceptable.

It was unconstructive in that he didn’t offer any solutions, just an annoying poke.

You've attached some hard restrictions (versus guidelines) on the entities trying to help you.

I’ve been very open and have “let go” many times. I am not making restrictions, I am simply filtering out, through reason, crap that can be attributed to coincidence and parlor tricks, which charlatans like Deepak Chopra and Uri Geller thrive on.

Here. I'll Devil Advocate at you, telling you i'm about to.

Maybe they don't like you right now. Maybe your seen as a person who is very angry and afraid and closed and the other side doesn't feel like they can reach you, so your being left alone. Like when you tell your kids not to play with matches yet you keep finding them in thier hands and demanding that you describe the sensation as to why they shouldn't play with matches and what's the big deal about being burned anyway?

You want proof positive. Why? And why should you get epic tangible miracles of existance, when a single parent asking for tangible food isn't getting it?
What makes you so special?

I’ve considered this many times myself, and in fact have asked myself that exact same question. It’s just that I’ve entertained the idea that God may be all good and powerful…and since many individuals claim to have spiritual experiences, I’m willing to at least suspect that God is capable of doing this for me. The expectation of it alone shows that I’m open to such experiences. And if God communed with you, then, well, there you go.

Perhaps God is sick and twisted and is enjoying the anguish your feeling.
Perhaps your Satanic or Luciferian in nature and haven't relised it yet.

Why would you suggest that God is sick and twisted if you say He’s spoken to you and helped you out?

What is it about your life that makes you want to blame or receive comfort from God so badly? Until you deal with that, your head is going to be very loud.

It is terrifying to realize how tiny and insignificant we are, and I want God to tell me that I have a purpose and a life after death, and that I’m not just a member of a species that evolved from some cosmic accident. There, I said it. I’m afraid, and I want God to tell me that it’s going to be ok. It’s just that I’m skeptical at the same time, which causes a lot of clashes with faith.

You tried to find God through alter offerings, smudging and rituals? Forcing their hand? What makes you believe that it would be your most benevolent outcome to evoke or conjure the Source of All? What makes you think that if you got exactly what your asking for it, wouldn't hamper you down the road or the energy wouldn't fry the body your in?

This is kind of silly, I’m pretty sure God is more than capable of controlling His power so that I wouldn’t get fried. And besides, most religions claim God to be a pretty nice guy, so I’m willing to bet He would be All Understanding and All Loving. And if He is the type of God who is mean or doesn’t care, then I figure He would just ignore me anyway. Besides, you claim to have been spoken to by Him and you weren’t fried at all.

I hope I ticked you off, or you became thoughtful. Either way means you either have an idea or your willing to open up to possibilities.

I’m already angry and constantly thoughtful, and have been open to possibilities for some time. Being open doesn’t mean that you should stop using reason. Open to what? What is all this talk I hear about being open from people? If I see a coincidence so incredible as to be undeniable, like asking a question, picking a random book from a shelf and opening it to a certain page and receiving a perfect answer, no matter how closed I was I would have to accept something like that.

I can't tell you what to believe. I wouldn't want to. Your path to development is very individual.

You seem really distressed. I'm terribly sorry about that. I remember my time in the void. Not particularly pleasant. Where was the hope? What was going on? Is this really it? What if God IS bad?

I finally decided I hadn't a clue. That all this was way beyond me. I felt I was losing my very soul. This is kinda a private moment for me, so I don't want to hash it out in detail, But I remember the very moment I let go. I was laying in the van. I was (or hoping I was) talking to someone. I said, "I give, I don't know, I have no more expectations, I'm afraid, and I'm soul bruised. I can't hold on any longer. Please, if your there, don't lose me. Please... just don't let go. Because I just can't.." Then in my minds eye, I felt my already slipping fingers slide off the cliff. Something grabbed my wrist, and in the silence I heard, with seriousness and amusement. "I've got you. Your okay. Why would I possibly want to let you go?" and a wash of Love like... just thinking about it now fills me to the core and it's leaking out my eyes.

I’ve done things like that plenty of times, to have nothing happen. And what you experienced could be purely psychological.

From that moment, I learned the value of silence. Or better, of listening. Once I stopped and listened, the more I listened, the easier it became to hear. Once receptive and practiced, I notice things all the time now.

Like what?

The other day, I forgot the name of one of my crystals. It was driving me nuts. My mind churning trying to remember. I walked into the other room and saw one of my other stones. "Charolite" I thought. "No, Selinite" I heard. "Thanks" I said. As I was already on my way to bed I lay down, and when I had settled and closed my eyes. "Was that really you?" I wondered.
On the inside of my left eyelid, I watched as a spark akin to a little star-meteor blazed a little trail. The accompanying feeling was personal. It was like a wave hello.

In both instances, I had been still and listened. Think of it like you and a friend are in the living room and your reading a book and your friend is talking to you. When your friend askes a question, you might have to say,
"What? Sorry, I didn't catch that. Oh, and when you do talk to me, I'm only going to listen if you write it on 10x15 size cards in Gothic lettering. 9x10 won't do, neither will regular script." Your cheating yourself, and hampering those that love and want to help you by demanding only within your guideline specifics.

What kinds of entities love me and could want to help me? Good spirits?

Look…I’ve been at prayer, and I’ve tried meditating. Why didn’t one of these entities come to me during meditation and make me understand something or feel something profound? I’ve prayed and given myself and given up and been down and destroyed and defeated, and zilch, hun. I’ve set aside countless moments to speak to God and to be receptive to such entities, and nothing.

Same thing. Stop being so busy and demanding and just listen. It takes awhile to get the hang of listening. (Quite longer then a month) At worst, You'll be a better listener. At best, you've found your friend.

I don’t understand what you mean by listening.

Later, If you MUST, you could always try a between life regression. But even with that, you still need the ability to listen, let go, and concentrate.

I honestly have no idea what that is.

I'm sorry, if I was a little rough on giving you a swift kick.

No biggie, nothing I haven’t heard before. If anything, thank you, that was very profound and thoughtful, it indeed got me thinking. I have a lot of arguments and questions, but still, your response was very profound and rang true. I’m angry and flustered, and I know how that can mess me up mentally, physically, and spiritually. It’s just that I hate crawling around in the dark, and it is terrifying to think that no one can help me.

Maybe I should restart, and start thinking about and listing all the things that are kind of spiritual and think of them in a new light. Would you like to hear some of the stories that have happened to me?

I hope I helped a little,

More than you think.

Tas

[Tasakii]

Sorry dude, I didn't catch that you were a guy. Sometimes I forget to listen.:bigblue:

Sure, I'd love to hear some stories.

Each person listens differently. I don't know how you would listen, for me, I need a quiet moment and then I listen. The sensation is akin to trying to listen to faint voices in the other room. Except instead of listening "out/over there", it's "condensed" and I listen "up" or more near the top back of my head. Sometimes it's an intense emotion and feeling of duality instead. That's the best I can explain it.

I was advocating. When doing that, the purpose would be to get someone else to think, not plop out my beliefs. I don't think "God" is twisted or doesn't care or anything like that. I did once...

I agree and commend you for not taking anyones word for it. No one knows you on earth better then you do.

Perhaps for you, Merrilyn is right. There are plenty of people who do just fine without a diety. Perhaps you are one of these.

"Between Life Regression" is where you are put in a hypnotic state deep enough that you break the barrier. Usually done in 2 sessions. First, you do a past life, then in your 2nd session they take you to the time between your lives. Where you meet your soul group, you can talk to the council, you meet and talk with your guide, find out who some key people are and understand why it is you came here.

Michael Newton "journey of souls" and "destiny of souls" outlines what he's uncovered after accidently coming across a "Between time" and then pursuing this afterward. I highly recommend these books. I've had to stop loaning mine out because they never came back. I couldn't afford to keep buying them.

Funny. Some of the times I've felt I've helped people the most is when giving them a hug, stroking their hair, and telling them that it's all going to work out fine. When they ask how I know, the only thing I can say is that it's one of those strange things I just know.

I've been thinking about you for the last day. I've had enough stuff happen to me that I don't think I have a "belief" any more. (on some things) I'm certain, and that's the way it is (whether I like it or not). I hate to see someone lost and hurt and confused and afraid. My heart really goes out to you.

The only thing I can genuinely think of, might be your having this much difficulty so that you can intelligently advocate for someone else when you figure it out. Or, there is a distinct reason you need to feel this or a lesson you wanted.

I don't know what...

Affection and hugs,
Tas

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Can't you ask the spirits? Please?

[ModernKnight]

I see MK trying to do a helpful thing. Pull the devils advocate on you. Not what you wanted to hear. There fore it wasn't acceptable.

It was unconstructive in that he didn’t offer any solutions, just an annoying poke.


Sometimes an annoying poke is what some people need to help them see the situation from a different perspective. In this case, it seems it didn't work.

All I know about you is what you have written in your posts here, but when I read what you have written on this topic I get the impression of someone who desperately desires a clear answer. We have made many suggestions about how to get an answer from the divine, but your response has been "I have already tried it and it hasn't worked" or "I wouldn't trust that kind of answer" or "I'm not willing to put that much effort into it, I need an answer now." For all of the different methods you have tried, think about the attitude you adopted when you tried them. The way you come across on the boards is angry and demanding. In your first post, you wrote:

I just had it out with God. Not nessesarily the Christian God, just God...the one God of the Universe, if He exists. I'm angry because of His refusal to reveal Himself to me.

To me, this sounds like you believe that the gods owe you an answer. It sounds like you have made a demand of the gods and got mad when they didn't reply the way you like. In my experience, no one likes having people demand things of them. Perhaps you made a bad impression on them and as a result, they don't like you.

The problem might not be what you are doing, but rather how you are doing it.

Perhaps what is needed is a change in attitude. You say you have tried "the patient, worshippy route" but think back about how you went about it. Did you have any skill at meditation and prayer? How did you address the divine? Did you offer them anything? Did you thank them for anything? Or did you just present your demand in a pious way? I cannot speak for anyone else, but in my encounters with various gods I have never encountered one who felt he owed me anything. If I want a favor of them, I have to give them something in return. When you prayed to the gods, what did you offer them?

[Kahlil the Heretic]

How am I supposed to know what they want, if anything? I've given offerings of incense, candles, flowers, and most of all, attention and respect, even admiration.

Besides, there are just as many people who believe that "they" or "He" want nothing more than our love and acknowledgement, and since there is no evidence to support either position, it is pretty much up in the air. But like I said, I used to be very patient. Very magnanimous and serene. I'll admit that now I'm angry and impatient and even rude, but only after dissapointment after dissapointment. Part of me figured that if being nice wouldn't bring them out, then maybe being angry would. If I was in "their" situation I'd be very flattered that someone was so passionate about understanding or knowing me, or even just getting a passing glimpse of me.

Are you sure you aren't just delusional when you think you get stuff from the devine? I mean, have you ever just sat and really considered that what you feel is magical is really just you convincing yourself and believing what you want to believe? Is that really so different from 'faith?'

You say that you got an imediate response when you asked. Was that response something corny and insubstantial, like a butterfly fluttering past your face? Or something serendipidous like a candle bursting into flames? People say that I should listen, but if listening means taking random events and convincing myself that they are something meaningful and divine, then you can just forget it. I'm just seperating the superstitions from the divine.

[ShadowcatX]

I won't believe anything short of God appearing before me, and I hope that God is wise enough to realize that my mind works in this fashion.

If God appears before you it's no longer belief. If you have to see to have faith, then you will never have faith.

My advice is this: find something that you would think would be spiritual, and that you would enjoy doing, and do it. Don't do it in an attempt to find something spiritual, don't do it because I told you to, do it because it's something you think you'll enjoy. And enjoy it.

[ShadowcatX]

Are you sure you aren't just delusional when you think you get stuff from the devine? I mean, have you ever just sat and really considered that what you feel is magical is really just you convincing yourself and believing what you want to believe? Is that really so different from 'faith?'

Yes, I have. And you know what I decided, I decided that it didn't matter, or at least that if it did matter, I didn't care. My religion drives me to try and become a better person and it gives me a sense of fulfillment and purpose. If in the end I learn that there's nothing, then I'll still be glad I had my religion with me until the end for it's strength.

You say that you got an imediate response when you asked. Was that response something corny and insubstantial, like a butterfly fluttering past your face? Or something serendipidous like a candle bursting into flames? People say that I should listen, but if listening means taking random events and convincing myself that they are something meaningful and divine, then you can just forget it. I'm just seperating the superstitions from the divine.

Here, I have a question for ya. How do you know that you haven't taken something meaniful and divine and decided it's just random, or even just nature? Watch a sunset, go for a walk under the night sky, spend a day volunteering as a big brother. It's not about forcing yourself to believe something everyday is divine, it's about finding the divine in the everyday stuff.

[ModernKnight]

How am I supposed to know what they want, if anything? I've given offerings of incense, candles, flowers, and most of all, attention and respect, even admiration.

I read the myths about the gods and try to provide them the gifts their culture traditionally gives. Respect is certaintly a good start.

Are you sure you aren't just delusional when you think you get stuff from the devine? I mean, have you ever just sat and really considered that what you feel is magical is really just you convincing yourself and believing what you want to believe? Is that really so different from 'faith?' You say that you got an imediate response when you asked. Was that responce something corny and insubstantial, like a butterfly fluttering past your face? Or something serendipidous like a candle bursting into flames?

I have stood before an ancient temple-statue of Athena and felt her divine presence. I saw Her and spoke with Her directly. There was no room for doubt then. I have spoken with other gods as well, and to me there is no possible way to explain it by anything else ... no "faith" required.

Before that could happen, however, I had to make do with smaller proofs until I developed my abilities to the point where I could see what was going on. A sign does little good to a blind man, and blind I was. These smaller proofs were still proof enough, though.

People say that I should listen, but if listening means taking random events and convincing myself that they are something meaningful and divine, then you can just forget it. I'm just seperating the superstitions from the divine.

Any statistician will tell you that a long string of coincidences likely are not coincidences at all. Predicting that a coin will land on heads and having it come true is a coincidence. Predicting it 50 times in a row is not. Are you sure you're not dismissing the overall pattern because each individual event might be a coincidence?

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Any statistician will also tell you that it is extremely unlikely that something unlikely doesn't happen at all. Those 50 heads or 50 tails in a row are bound to happen eventually because we flip so many coins every day (figuratively of course.) People simply take one event such as those 50 coin flips, which is bound to happen eventually, and attribute magical properties to it when it is nothing more than an unlikely event that was bound to happen anyway. It is selective belief. You take what you want and ignore everything else.

And are you sure that you weren't mentally ill or dreaming or on drugs or in a hypnotic state when you talked to Athena? The mind is a powerful thing, and can believe what it wants.

[ModernKnight]

Any statistician will also tell you that it is extremely unlikely that something unlikely doesn't happen at all. Those 50 heads or 50 tails in a row are bound to happen eventually because we flip so many coins every day (figuratively of course.) People simply take one event such as those 50 coin flips, which is bound to happen eventually, and attribute magical properties to it when it is nothing more than an unlikely event that was bound to happen anyway. It is selective belief. You take what you want and ignore everything else.

Reality is constructed by subjective belief. By your criteria, literally nothing could satisfy your definition of "proof".

And are you sure that you weren't mentally ill or dreaming or on drugs or in a hypnotic state when you talked to Athena? The mind is a powerful thing, and can believe what it wants.

Yes.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Well I wouldn't say nothing...If I saw a chair fly across the room I'd become a believer instantly. If I was at prayer and felt a rush of love and profound emotion I'd fall to my knees and thank God. If I heard a voice in my head, and knew that I wasn't on drugs or alseep or sleep deprived, and after a mental evaluation I'd become a believer; and believe me, no one would be happier than me to be proven wrong.

You all seem to think that I want a light show complete with sparklers, or for God to appear before me as George Burns. When I say such things I mean things like what I mentioned above...ok well maybe not a chair flying across the room (though that would be cool), but spiritual experiences that could not be attributed to anything else. You all have recieved such things, or so you claim, and so I don't see why I can't receive such things either. And you know what? I'm gonna keep at it, and maybe refine my thinking to be even more receptive, while still preserving a healthy skeptical attitude.

Don't forget, I want to be proven wrong.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Ok, I'm making this in another post because it is not quite as related. I'm going to tell you a story of a (coincidence?) that occured to me recently, and I'd like your input on it.

I was flipping channels when I came across a program of an older gentleman being given a psychological test. I watched for only a few moments, and all I picked up was that he was some sort of savant; he had an incredible memory. Also, they mentioned that he was born without a corpus collosum, the part of the brain that connects both hemispheres. I continued flipping channels for a while when I decided to get on the computer and surf...my surfing took me to the Skeptic's dictionary (skepdic.com) where I clicked on the entry for 'speed reading', thinking it was strange that speed reading would be contested as being legitimate. At the bottom of the article, a section in bold said something to the effect of, "Only one individual has the ability to speed read...his name is Kim Peek, and scientists believe that he has this incredible ability due to the fact that he was born without a corpus collosum."

I smiled. "Heh," I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if that was the same guy I saw on TV 10 minutes ago?" I clicked a link to see his picture and....holy shise...it was him. I ran to the TV to confirm if it was really him...and I barely saw his image before the credits ran for the show.

One week later, I saw a link to a video about him on a completely unrelated webpage.

So there you have it. I'll admit, I was amazed...and don't think I just took it sitting down. I researched Mr. Kim Peek in hopes of finding some message. I actually considered, how could I not, that this might have something to do with my search for truth. And nothing. I saw the coincidence, and did the research, (i.e., being open) and couldn't attach anything meaningful at all to it.

Why would I be sent such a powerful coincidence only to not find anything meaningful along with it? Should I take it as nothing but chance, or continue looking for miracles in it? Interesting stuff. I'd like to hear your takes on it. And I've got another story that is probably even more amazing, if you'd like to hear. What do you think of this?

[1111]

It was several months ago that I suspended my disbelief and skepticism to go on some sort of spiritual journey. I lit candles, prayed, tried meditating, asked God to lead me to truth, picked flowers for an alter that I made, burned incense, smudged myself and my room, bought countless books on the pursuit of God and on metaphysics, and did countless other goofy mamadas and absolutely nothing came of it. I don't feel any more fulfilled or closer to some universal truth.

I just had it out with God. Not nessesarily the Christian God, just God...the one God of the Universe, if He exists. I'm angry because of His refusal to reveal Himself to me. I'm pissed because after all this searching and crap I've yet to see anything more than a few easily explainable coincidences, and frankly, I'm fed up. I'm sick of persuing a silent God who people insist loves me yet can't even mutter a single word to me. And this applies to the God or gods of all faiths. I feel so stupid now for thinking that some mysterious, all powerful boogie man is out there watching us and ready to zap us with lightning or give us his blessing. I'm sick of asking bearded wackos in trench-coats or robes about their hokey religion only to get a cryptic, dramatic, fluffy-assed answer like, "The truth is within you" or some other Yoda-esque bullshit.

I have been tempted lately to take drastic measures. If the spiritual world will refuse to come to me, then perhaps I will have to force it out, like by some kind of ritual or defamation of a certain god's image. The way I see it, if they don't exist, then they can't hurt me. If they do exist and mess me up, then I can rejoice knowing that some other deeper spiritual world exists out there, and I'll win in the end. I've tried the kind, contemplative, patient worshippy route, now maybe its time I tried to yank them out of their spiritual hiding places, whatever they are.

I feel so stupid for actually expecting and believing that maybe, juuuuust maybe, this next time that I pray something magical is gonna happen. What a fool I've been. I was raging before I wrote this message...raging at God. I haven't felt such anger, such passion in a long time...part of me wonders if it will make him hate and punish me, or take pity on me. After all, if he is omnipotent he must be understanding of my situation. Either way, it is interesting how I can rage at something that may or may not exist

This is a rant, I know, but I'm angry. I'm sick and tired of dissapointment after dissapointment, and frankly I'm ready to go postal on the spiritual realm. Of course it's probably just talk, I need to cool down.

All you have to do is ask. Ask for a sign, something that means something to you, it can be simple or it can be off the wall. Be creative. Trust me you will see it. They say once you ask for a sign it usually takes about three days. But that will change in time, sometimes I don’t even get the request out of my mouth and I see it.

Believe me, you said about the butterfly flying by your head, but that could be your request. That is actually the first thing I started with….show me a yellow butterfly if X and show me a black butterfly if X. Now mind you I did not even know if either of those colors existed where I live. But, boom three days later it showed up. And then of course, I did not believe it, like you may not, so I asked something else, then something else….and after a while I became a TRUE believer. But it is real. Now don’t ask for a car to drive by your house, be specific about what you want to see. But remember it can come in any form. It may not be the form you are thinking in your head.

Being patient is part of it and some people around here will say I have a real problem with that, but with asking for the signs it has helped me to understand things and to understand there is something extremely powerful at work. Most of my signs haunt me and now all of my friends who are aware of my requests too.

So just try it and see what comes. Keep an eye out, but don’t force it, if that makes any sense. Just be aware.

Good Luck….I so know how you feel. I was there once.


1111

[ModernKnight]

Well I wouldn't say nothing...If I saw a chair fly across the room I'd become a believer instantly. If I was at prayer and felt a rush of love and profound emotion I'd fall to my knees and thank God.

A thought ... in my experience, prayer is a skill, not merely thinking thoughts in my head. Why don't you try this rite (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/rites/beyondwall.html) and make your prayer when you get to step 8.

Perhaps all that you need is to make your mind more receptive. Be skeptical after the experience is over.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Thank you. I will look into this with an open mind. But...I heard that messing with altered states is risky. This can't make a person into a vegetable, can it? I have also heard that meditation can induce depersonalization disorder.

And 1111, thank you for such an optomistic post! I'll admit I enjoy hearing it, but I imagine that many people on this site would think that that isn't an accurate attitude...I mean, how specific are we talking about? If I ask to meet a guy named Ronald Bobson if yes or Buddy Gonzales in no, will it happen?

[1111]

Thank you. I will look into this with an open mind.

And 1111, thank you for such an optomistic post! I'll admit I enjoy hearing it, but I imagine that many people on this site would think that that isn't an accurate attitude...I mean, how specific are we talking about? If I ask to meet a guy named Ronald Bobson if yes or Buddy Gonzales in no, will it happen?


Try it and see. Believe me I have asked for off the wall STUFF and get it. Now it is to the point, I don’t have to ask for things, the point that is trying to be made will come through. Although mine is personal, trust me all the things ever associated will show themselves. Trust me the gods, goddess and Universe have a very wicked sense of humor.

Hang around me one day and you will see. I feel like pig pen of the spiritual world some days. My poor new co-worker/friend is a little freaked out with the entire goings on of late. If you have a good sense of humor it helps, believe me.

Depending on where you live, why don’t you try asking for license plates? Think of the state furthest from you and ask to see that plate. Now if it is one you see all the time, don’t ask it. But ask for one you never see and see if it shows up. You can really ask for anything.

Trust me if I asked to meet the two people you just mentioned, I would.

Also, they will keep things from you too. We have crows all around here. I ask for a crow back in March and I have not seen one....not one. They are everywhere around here. I go to a park every single day at lunch, it really should have been called crow park before March and NOT ONE. Now, had I known that was going to happen, I so would not have asked for that, I did not know they were going to be removed. I was just being a smart ass asking for that sign. It was to me like asking if the sky was ble, since I would see them every day in the same place.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

What do you think of my story? Coincidence? Or perhaps I'll find some relevance to Kim Peek eventually?

[ModernKnight]

What do you think of my story? Coincidence? Or perhaps I'll find some relevance to Kim Peek eventually?

Personally, I don't believe in coincidences anymore. Perhaps there's some relevance to Kim Peek, or perhaps it's just one attempt at presenting a sign for you to see as proof.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Hey 1111, I asked to see a New York license plate and I think I might have. It was too quick to be sure, all I know is that it was white with a blue strip on top and looked like a picture of one I found on the internet...I wish I was certain of it though, so I asked if I can see it again more clearly. Do you think this was wrong to ask?

[1111]

Hey 1111, I asked to see a New York license plate and I think I might have. It was too quick to be sure, all I know is that it was white with a blue strip on top and looked like a picture of one I found on the internet...I wish I was certain of it though, so I asked if I can see it again more clearly. Do you think this was wrong to ask?

Nope, you can ask for it again. You can ask as many times as you want. But ‘IF’ you think you saw it then I bet you did.

Keep at it. Have faith.

1111
:wave:

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Well I was actively looking for license plates on the highway...the car whizzed past me, and all I knew was that it wasn't from my state. I looked for a pic on the net of a New York license plate and it looked similar, but it may also have been from Florida...so I asked to see another one, and hopefully I'll see it in a parking lot or something.

Who is showing me this stuff anyway?

[~Elise~]

Who is showing me this stuff anyway?

Whom did you ask to show it to you?

Just sayin'

Elise

[Kahlil the Heretic]

No one in particular. I suppose it was implied that God and helpful spirits show me. Does it work if I loosely imply something?

[CzechWoods]

your anger makes you blind

[ModernKnight]

I ran across some exercises to help build your psychic senses. They might help you to see the proofs around you. http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/rit_sensoryex.html

[~Elise~]

No one in particular. I suppose it was implied that God and helpful spirits show me. Does it work if I loosely imply something?

Yup--works just fine.

Elise

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Well, I saw a Nevada plate and even three Wisconsin plates, but no New York...damnit, I should have picked Wisconsin...I wonder how long I should keep this up. I mean, I've got to see a New York plate SOME time in my life.

[ModernKnight]

Well, I saw a Nevada plate and even three Wisconsin plates, but no New York...damnit, I should have picked Wisconsin...I wonder how long I should keep this up. I mean, I've got to see a New York plate SOME time in my life.

Next time when you ask for a sign, maybe you should set a time limit.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Good idea! Never thought of that. Yet, I've been accused of setting limits on the 'other side's' ways of helping me, so I don't really know if I should do that either.

[1111]

Well, I saw a Nevada plate and even three Wisconsin plates, but no New York...damnit, I should have picked Wisconsin...I wonder how long I should keep this up. I mean, I've got to see a New York plate SOME time in my life.

OMG! Will someone remind me when I come across a thread I am drawn to....to just keep going. Mind my own business. :rant:

KTH~ This has nothing to do with you personally. HONEST. But oh my friends will get a huge kick out of this.

And btw, I saw your New York plate twice today, different cars both times.

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep it up. Remember, it is about what means something to you and about what you feel is right.

1111

[1111]

Well, I saw a Nevada plate and even three Wisconsin plates, but no New York...damnit, I should have picked Wisconsin...I wonder how long I should keep this up. I mean, I've got to see a New York plate SOME time in my life.

And usually within three days........

[Kahlil the Heretic]

OMG! Will someone remind me when I come across a thread I am drawn to....to just keep going. Mind my own business. :rant:

KTH~ This has nothing to do with you personally. HONEST. But oh my friends will get a huge kick out of this.

And btw, I saw your New York plate twice today, different cars both times.

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keep it up. Remember, it is about what means something to you and about what you feel is right.

1111

I don't understand this post at all.

[ModernKnight]

Good idea! Never thought of that. Yet, I've been accused of setting limits on the 'other side's' ways of helping me, so I don't really know if I should do that either.

It's a delicate balance, but I find it's sometimes important to remember that an immortal being sometimes has a different conception of time than I do. :)

In this case, I don't see it as setting a limit on how they help you but rather being specific in your request.

[~Elise~]

KTH-- you're getting signs, just not yours. LOL. I rolled off the chair when I saw your post this morning about the license plates because of the particular ones that you saw.

And it seems that 1111 is getting your signs.

Maybe THAT is a sign?!?

Elise

[1111]

I don't understand this post at all.

No you would not understand it. It is personal to me and you seem to be my messenger for some reason. And you never shoot the messenger.

But remember the experiment you wanted to do…….IT’S DONE. Just trust in what you are asking for. You are getting the information. Keep at it.

1111

[1111]

KTH-- you're getting signs, just not yours. LOL. I rolled off the chair when I saw your post this morning about the license plates because of the particular ones that you say.

And it seems that 1111 is getting your signs.

Maybe THAT is a sign?!?

Elise

Well glad to be able to always make you laugh.....good thing I am just inpatient and not sensitive too! :nyah:

Oh and it is a sign all right. Ok, not back away from this thread and let KTH go about his business of learning what he needs to. Poor thing. We brought enough trouble.

~4~

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Hey Elsie, would you happen to be from Wisconsin?

Well well well, I'm so happy to bring a little laughter into your lives...I wish I knew what was going on though. You say the experiment is done, but I hardly think that it is. That would require taking your word for it, and I'm not really sure what you and Elsie are talking about. Please tell me, it would mean a lot to me. I don't understand by what you mean when you say you're getting my messages, and when you fell out your chair laughing.

1111, I'm going to conduct an experiment. I'm going to ask to see a certain state's license plate, within 2 days, and in a parking lot, NOT on the road where I can't be certain if I saw it. On the third day, I'll ask if you saw it or not. That way I can sort of "catch" the sign between you and me. Although I will also ask that they please stop playing with me and let me see it myself. Though they may have a sense of humor, I hope they realize I am in a lot of pain and this is very serious for me. Jezzus Christ, just look at the things I'm willing to do. I'm staring at license plates for crying out loud.

Are there any objections to this? It isn't too limiting is it?

And what if nothing happens?

[1111]

Hey Elsie, would you happen to be from Wisconsin?

Well well well, I'm so happy to bring a little laughter into your lives...I wish I knew what was going on though. Please tell me, it would mean a lot to me.

1111, I'm going to conduct an experiment. I'm going to ask to see a certain state's license plate, within 2 days, and in a parking lot, NOT on the road where I can't be certain if I saw it. On the third day, I'll ask if you saw it or not. That way I can sort of "catch" the sign between you and me. Although I will also ask that they please stop playing with me and let me see it myself. Though they may have a sense of humor, I hope they realize I am in a lot of pain and this is very serious for me. Jezzus Christ, just look at the things I'm willing to do. I'm staring at license plates for crying out loud.

Are there any objections to this? It isn't too limiting is it?

And what if nothing happens?

I can PM you later the info.......Why don't you look for something else other than lic. plates, it maybe was a bad suggestion on my part. Why don't you ask for say a wolf or another animal that maybe you connect with...something like that.

And no Elise is not from WI!

[Kahlil the Heretic]

But that is very broad. I don't want it to be a coincidence. How about a certain number?

[1111]

But that is very broad. I don't want it to be a coincidence. How about a certain number?

Oh for gods sake no...you will freakin see 1111 everywhere. And that is humor there. Check your PM's and let me know if you have anymore questions.

1111

[Kahlil the Heretic]

I meant to ask, what if I wanted to see a specific number a lot, like 22 or 48?

[1111]

I meant to ask, what if I wanted to see a specific number a lot, like 22 or 48?


Check your PM's and think about it very carfully. Make it meaningful. Let me know if you need anything else.

~1111~

[~Elise~]

No, I'm not from WI. I'm from the Great State of TX. I'm being held hostage on the wrong side of the Red River- (in other words, I live in OK)

As 1111 says... be very careful what you ask for. Yes, the Universe has a perversely wicked sense of humor. While I'm not laughing at your pain, I can step back and see the big picture...

Faith is called faith for a reason--you have to take that proverbial leap at some point. However, also... I know without a single doubt in my mind that The Goddess is there for me. I had my moment of doubt, in myself though, and She came through in spades for me.

Ask and ye shall receive... not just a bibical proverb-I absolutely promise you without one single doubt in my mind.

Elise (please note spelling... it is not Elsie. HUGE difference)

[CzechWoods]

i have to reply to your posts with some wise words from other people, that i woul use in meditation topics.

Is there a difference between happiness and inner peace?
Yes.
Happiness depends on conditions being perceived as positive;
inner peace does not.
****
Eckhart Tolle


+++++++++++++++


The most important thing is not to get trapped
in what I see everywhere in the West,
a 'shopping mentality:'
shopping around from master to master,
teaching to teaching, without any continuity or real,
sustained dedication to any one discipline.
****
Sogyal Rinpoche

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Your actions in life set your course
and determine the destination of your travels.
Your reactions in life
create the climate in which you travel.
****
Beth Johnson


++++++++++++++++


The problem with many things
is the pre-conceived ideas we have about them!
****
Tishan






i believe these 4 should help

[~Elise~]

Wise words, indeed.

Elise

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Interesting you should mention that, I've read his book, The Power of Now.

[Kahlil the Heretic]

I've asked for something to happen, something reasonable, which I asked to receive by Wednesday, and I will reveal what it is by then. What if nothing happens?

[~Elise~]

That's a question for you... what will happen if your sign doesn't appear?

Will you have to take something on faith that it exists. Or do you deny the existance completely?

Also... what happens if you get your sign?

Elise

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Well then that would be pretty cool...

By the by pearl, did you get that message I sent you?

[NewPhoenix]

Interesting you should mention that, I've read his book, The Power of Now.

and did you get any insights from it?

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Oh absolutetly. Unfortunately, though what he talks about it easy to understand, it is very difficult to practice. I agree with much of what he says, but he delves a lot into metaphysics, which is difficult for many people to believe. Also, I am dissilusioned at the fact that he's making quite a bit of money off of the books sales. I often wonder what use a self-proclaimed "enlightened" individual would have for all that money, especially when he can be perfectly content sitting on a park bench all day.

And it still doesn't give me the overt sign from the 'other side' that I'm looking for.

[Malcolm]

Not to sound like a dick or anything but maybe they just plain don't like you. Seriously, maybe you just aren't meant to experience anything. _inabox_

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Yet again with this?

Honestly that is really dissapointing to hear, what can I possibly do to make "them" like me?

[Qeniheru]

I don't think you've done anything terrible enough to make them not like you. :) But perhaps you are looking too hard. I went searching for signs for this and that constantly when I first started on my path, and felt defeated when I found nothing. Then one day, it hit me. And I saw, heard, and felt what I was looking for.

Be patient. The spirits will come to you when they feel you are truly ready for them. If you think you're ready now, you probably aren't...at least in my experience. :hahugh:

Other people have mentioned this, as well.

Hmm...maybe that is what the spirits are waiting for. Maybe they are waiting for you to stop looking so hard for a reason to believe, and to simply have faith that they are there, waiting for you. Perhaps then, they will see you as ready and come to you. :)

In the meantime, hang in there. :hugz:

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Systlaine, thanks, that means a lot to me and actually makes sense. It's not like I've gone on a murderous rampage or urinated on an alter to Athena or anything, jeezus.

"The spirits don't like you but they think I'm cool 'cause I'm the chosen one, nah-nah-nah nah nah!" What cynical fluffy nonsense.

[~Elise~]

Well then that would be pretty cool...

By the by pearl, did you get that message I sent you?

Yes, I got your message, but there isn't anything to say that I haven't already said in the thread to you.


Elise

[Kahlil the Heretic]

Oh...I see...

[NewPhoenix]

Oh absolutetly. Unfortunately, though what he talks about it easy to understand, it is very difficult to practice. I agree with much of what he says, but he delves a lot into metaphysics, which is difficult for many people to believe. Also, I am dissilusioned at the fact that he's making quite a bit of money off of the books sales. I often wonder what use a self-proclaimed "enlightened" individual would have for all that money, especially when he can be perfectly content sitting on a park bench all day.

And it still doesn't give me the overt sign from the 'other side' that I'm looking for.

Hi Kahlil, I think what makes it difficult to practice is our conditioning. I mean, you can read his stuff and see how much it makes sense and it rings true to our hearts... and yet what we put into practice in daily life is often totally opposite. So I guess the way I see it is that it's breaking the conditioning and habit that's the difficult part... and yeah that takes practice, like with any bad habit.

I know metaphysics can be difficult for many people to grasp because it's very conceptual, getting into the BIG PICTURE stuff... and not everyone is conceptual. But I don't think it's necessary to think conceptually at all... in fact he teaches to let go of thought and get away from mind stuff. The actual pointers that he offers are the most helpful... to quiet the mind, to focus on space & stillness, to feel the inner body, to watch the breath, etc... all this requires no conceptual thinking at all.

About the money part... yeah I know many people get hung up on that, but I think many people get hung up on the subject of money in general. They make it mean something... they assign motives and have rigid definitions of what money is for, how it should be used, what it means or doesn't mean, etc etc. I think all that is just a bunch of judgment. Just because someone is a spiritual teacher doesn't mean the guy can just live on air and sunshine... he still has to function in the world and pay bills, etc. We have this lofty idea of what a spiritual teacher should be... like they should somehow cease to be human.

The way I look at it is if we can pay football players and movie stars salaries consisting of millions of dollars just to entertain us, why not pay a small part of that to someone that has a life transforming spiritual message to share with us? Isn't it screwy how unbalanced our values are, based on where we choose to spend the almighty dollar? Something else I've learned is that in the East, spiritual teachers don't charge and are supported through donations, which are regularly given. Here in the West, the culture is such that people place more value on something that they have to pay for. I personally could care less whether someone charges or not... I look past that to the actual teaching and judge that based on what rings true to my heart.

About the signs from the other side... I think there are many ways of looking at that. For example, you could say that what I'm writing to you and what other people communicate with you are messages from "outside" of you that reach your awareness. There are many such messages... we get whispers of guidance all the time that are given to us, but we miss them because we don't pay attention and don't know what to look for.

Say, if you ask for guidance, and then turn on the radio and the first song you hear has a message... pay attention. If you open a book or magazine in the middle... pay attention to the first message your eyes look at. If you're pondering something and drive past a billboard, pay attention to the message on it.

Did you ever see that movie "Bruce Almighty"? That was a great example... here he was praying to God to give him a sign, and there were a bunch of signs all around him that he was totally oblivious to. The key is to pay attention to your gut... learn to feel your inner body. That's how I know whether something is a guidance or truth or something I need to pay attention to.

Like if a message reaches your awareness, check your gut... does it feel peaceful or nervous inside? If you're not in the habit of doing that it may be hard to tell at first. But that's a way to get in touch with your intuition. You begin to tell that apart from the regular noise of your mind and emotions. It begins to feel like a "click", and the more you feel for it, the louder it gets, or the more pronounced.

This is what it means to look within. This is the best guide of all time, because it's your very soul... your TRUE self, that knows you best, that can guide you better than anyone else, that meets you exactly where you are and takes you forward to more clarity step by step. We can still allow things "outside" us to reach our awareness, but then let our intuition scan it to see if it rings true and how we should apply it in our lives.

[Malcolm]

Honestly that is really dissapointing to hear, what can I possibly do to make "them" like me?

I don't know. Try being yourself...no one likes people that try to hard to fit in...if that makes sense. I don't think I'm explaining it right...I'll just shut up now.

[Phoenix Blue]

If you're not going to contribute anything constructive, then shut your fundie mouth. This is a helping hands and hugs section, if you're going to be popping your head in just to be an asshole then don't bother coming in.

ADMIN MODE

You, sir, are trolling. Furthermore, you are in violation of the Respect Rule.

Thread closed.