Victim mentality and modern Paganism

[David19]

This is something i'd like to get other peoples opinions on but do you think that a lot of modern Pagans have a victim mentality or as i've seen it called the 'more persecuted than thou' syndrom, where constantly, they will go on and on and on about how persecuted they are, about how the 'big, bad Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc' are coming to 'get them' or whatever.

It just seems like many Pagans do have this victim mentality (here on Mystic wicks, the majority don't seem to have it, i've only really seen a few), but it's like they believe Christians 'are out to get them and convert them', ignoring the fact, that the majority of the world, including most Christians, don't give a sh*t about Pagans or 'pagan' religions, maybe if you walked into a KKK headquarters, then i'd agree with you, but then you shouldn't even be near the KKK, etc.

There are some Pagans who use use the mythic history of witches, e.g. the 'burning times', etc, and point to this as evidence of persecution (regardless of whether there were real witches that were killed, that was centuries ago, a time when slavery was legal too, the world isn't like that anymore, although slavery does exist in some places). To me, this is just not paying attention to history, spitting in the faces of those who were killed (e.g. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Gypsies, etc) and also doesn't pay any attention to the real world, there are a lot, and i mean a lot, more important things going on this world, today, than the supposed 'persecution' that all those ''evil', big, bad' Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc are inflicting on Pagans, take a look at Africa, at the fact every 3 seconds people are dying of hunger, the fact that soon, in Darfur(sp?), there will be a genocide, a people will disappear, take a look at the homophobia that still exists, the rising anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim feelings in various places, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

All those examples, and there's more, are true persecution, not the fact that someone can't wear a pentacle (or any other Pagan symbol) to school (and for those people that do think not being able to wear a pentacle is 'persecution', they probably should realize that, apparantly, the pentacle is a protective amulet, hidden to preserve it's mystical/magical power(s), so not something you should show off anyway, IMO).

Sorry if this seems like a rant, it's just i had to get this out of me, as i've seen it on several Pagan sites, Pagan books, etc, and i really think these Pagans who do feel 'more persecuted than thou' don't know sh*t about true persecution (try the Holocaust - wanting to wipe out every single Jew and Gypsy from the world, look at Darfur(sp?), etc).

Anyway, i'd really appreciate any of your thoughts/beliefs/opinions on this.

Thanks :).

[ModernKnight]

It's not just the Pagans. Right-wing Christians in recent years have repeatedly claimed to be "under assault" by athiests, gays and pagans. Every religion has people who adopt a victim mentality.

[Cindlady2]

Sure there are times it's justified, but some people will look for things to feel persecuted about. That way they have someone to blame for the hard knocks life gave them. Others just want the attention.

[Philosophia]

Pagans are human, thus you're always going to find people who delve into the victim mentality to find some sort of justification in acting like an ass. It happens in all colors, creeds, sexualities, etc. so its not just "one" area of life.

[Carla O'Harris]

Thematically, witches, who were in fact persecuted in Medieval and Early Modern Europe -- regardless of the numbers --, provide fertile psychological material for people who feel different or marginalized, and face various forms of ostracism or misunderstanding. It is perfectly understandable that those who are weird would be attracted towards those who are wyrd, especially when the fate of the latter so dramatically enacted the alienation and ostracism the weird often face. Those who walk to the beat of a different drummer and take the road less taken often must deal not only with isolation, but the judgement and misunderstanding of others. This should not be ridiculed ; but rather, recognized, and re-organized into a paradigm which empowers through encouraging responsibility, and which also lends support to the alienation and loneliness sometimes characteristic of the marginal. Hags --- haegatessa -- have always been those who "ride the fence", who inhabit the marginal areas, and so it is logical that the path would call to those who are marginalized. Hopefully the path helps them turn the fact of being marginalized into the power of navigating the margins. The logical thing to do when encountering someone who has a large sense of persecution is to ask them about their experiences, and what has made them feel so persecuted. Such empathy can often accomplish a lot more than debate, and needless to say accomplishes a hel of a lot more than ridicule.

[Callatya]

Maybe its just that those who feel that their beliefs and way of life can be threatened are simply much louder than those who feel secure, making it seem like there are many more of them than there actually are?

I imagine its reasonably easy to be cool calm and collected online moreso than in real life where you have to think on your feet. Its also easier to spew forth fear and hatred under the cover of anonimity.

I don't really know, I'd think you'd find such types in all religions and I think that is a pretty scary thing. Mixing fear and religion is not something that should be encouraged, it almost always ends in tears.

[LostSheep]

I think there's two kinds: the "look at me, I'm a WITCH!!!" attitude - the people who buy the "1001 love spells for teens" kind of books , and who then start going around saying "look at me, I'm sooo persecuted".

I think there are a few people who genuinely have cause to say "I hate a particular sect of fundamentalist Christianity", maybe, because they may have had some experience of being discriminated against, but you do see an awful lot of generalisation, and I think that's just as bad as the persecution that they complain about others doing to them.

[Fiamma]

Thematically, witches, who were in fact persecuted in Medieval and Early Modern Europe -- regardless of the numbers --, provide fertile psychological material for people who feel different or marginalized, and face various forms of ostracism or misunderstanding. It is perfectly understandable that those who are weird would be attracted towards those who are wyrd, especially when the fate of the latter so dramatically enacted the alienation and ostracism the weird often face. Those who walk to the beat of a different drummer and take the road less taken often must deal not only with isolation, but the judgement and misunderstanding of others. This should not be ridiculed ; but rather, recognized, and re-organized into a paradigm which empowers through encouraging responsibility, and which also lends support to the alienation and loneliness sometimes characteristic of the marginal. Hags --- haegatessa -- have always been those who "ride the fence", who inhabit the marginal areas, and so it is logical that the path would call to those who are marginalized. Hopefully the path helps them turn the fact of being marginalized into the power of navigating the margins. The logical thing to do when encountering someone who has a large sense of persecution is to ask them about their experiences, and what has made them feel so persecuted. Such empathy can often accomplish a lot more than debate, and needless to say accomplishes a hel of a lot more than ridicule.


For some people those suggestions could be valid. That doesn't really say anything for the many drama queens out there who just want attention though

[Shield_Wolf]

I myself am starting to get tired of here alot of my Pagan friends saying how the Religion is under attack and how they are hated by Christians. And how it has been like this for 100s of year. But here the funny thing, before Christianity became has big as it has, they were the one that were being burned and kill by older Religions(mostily in Romon). So I say that everyone just needs to stop it because it really stupid, everyone religion has be under attack at lest once in history, so no one was or is safe.

[Toby Stimpson]

I would tend to agree with the others...I mean for those who are legitimatly persecuted and who have faced barriors in their lives, perhaps becasue of their alternative spiritual views, perhaps not are VASTLY different from thos who take the mentality that they take on this label' of being a 'Witch,' or "Pagan" and thus are then 'persecuted' when others tell them what to do. Now Im only generalizing here but its the little girl scenario...a young teeanger (regardless of their age or gender) wants to burn candles in the house. Their parents dont allow them becasue of fire hazard concerns...the teenager THEN goes on to think and say that they are being persecuted for their religious rights...errr NO, youre parents dont want you to burn the house down. I think there are degrees to be honest, and those who seem to use it as an excuse for everything that either goes wrong or any barrior in their life...thsoe are the people who are just using it to their advantage or to make plight in their life. those who generally do have issues with family, coworkers, etc,. then thsoe are the people who can with all honesty say they are being victimized. But to remain a victim is never ok...and so our role as a community is to help empower people...and not allow them to remain the victim mentality and victim state.

A very classic example is the recent thraed calling some people who converted to Christianity 'traitor's...in all hoensty its an extreme example BUt the poster's views are shared and to a lesser degree...and it all coems down to this 'hatred' for Christianity...partly from a personal responce, and in some cases a rebbelious attitude. I dont know about you, but I roll my eyes when ever anypne ho even remotely mentions christianity as being oppresive and yet has NEVER HAD OPPRESSION AGAINST THEM...just angers me. I mean I know it goes down hill when soemone says, "back in the medieval Witchhunt era..." but goes on and on and never gives a personal example really gets to me. I came from a small town where the religious right ruled the roost, and when I go back there even though after I stoppd caring and rocked the boat a lot (and Still rock the boat ;))...I can still see the Church as the major social gathering place...and those who dont go to church are left out of that. I was victimized in many ways by members of the local Missiuonary Church (the two important things being I was gay and also I was of a different religion)...I mean on one hand I dont think it helped matters when i went and decided to go to their youth group with friends and start corrupting the choir...but thats another story. It really is the approach, despite the aweful things that were spread about me by members and higher memebrs of that youth group (including the pastor himself when he camje to the school)...how I approached the situation was very empowering and afterwards I could no longer say i was a vicxtim, despite there being some blocks in my way.

Namaste

Tobias

[Xander67]

It's not just the Pagans. Right-wing Christians in recent years have repeatedly claimed to be "under assault" by athiests, gays and pagans. Every religion has people who adopt a victim mentality.

I agree with what ModernKnight said,

for every path there is always going to be someone who opposes it and promotes thier hateful intollerant agenda against it.

[Toby Stimpson]

I agree with what ModernKnight said,

for every path there is always going to be someone who opposes it and promotes thier hateful intollerant agenda against it.

I dont think you got what ModerKnight was saying at all...he was saying that every Path has those people who take on a victim mentality...he wasnt referring to thsoe who have hateful intolerance (although they might).

(ps. I love your smiley buddies ;))

[Xander67]

yeah, I agree with that, I understood what he said, lol
my comments were my own opinions..

thanks for the comliments on my smiley buddies, :)

[Silver Crow2]

It's not just the Pagans. Right-wing Christians in recent years have repeatedly claimed to be "under assault" by athiests, gays and pagans. Every religion has people who adopt a victim mentality.


Modern, I think there is a slight difference here.

Right -wing Christians (like most members of my family, so I know of what I speak) feel that God has revealed truth and morality.

Although the particulars differ, whatever crosses that morality is "wrong" and they must work to correct the wrong - by prayer, in the political arena, by evangelism, etc.

I don't see what pop psychology refers to as a victim mentality at all in the case of right wing christians.

If pagans (who generally, but not always) think that the environment is sacred and should be protected, that the government should not dictate what goes on in the bedroom between consenting adults etc. found the Christian right gaining control of the government and legislating against homosexuality, polyandry, or removing all restrictions about pollution, requireing that you sign an affadavit believing in Jesus Christ and "scientific creationism" to hold a job as a tteacher, would WE feel under assault?

If so, would that be victim mentatlity?

Not saying that all Christian rightwingers have those specific things on its agenda (although I know quite a few who do actually). I am trying to use a few almost absurd examples to prove a point.

[alwaysfallingup]

While I do agree that it's possible to see persecution in every action from those around you and to be so extremely sensitive as to imagine malice in every action around you, I think those people are the minority rather than the majority of Pagans/Wiccans/Witches/Magickal Folk. I think that, if people are assuming a victim mentality in their faith, that they are definitely missing the point of what I would consider a very empowering spirituality.

There are, for sure, people who experience bigotry and bias in their lives because of their religion, in Paganism as in other faiths. That is not acceptable. However, when this happens, it should become an opportunity to educate, to empower yourself, or at least to strengthen your inner resolves.

There will be people in ANY group who feel that someone is always out to get them. Occasionally, someone is. Often, they're being overly sensitive or looking for attention. I don't think that we should dismiss someone's feelings, though, just because we think they're "more persecuted than thou." If they are being treated badly because of their faith, we need to offer help and support. If they are not, we might consider addressing why they feel the need to look for that attention or see themselves as a victim and address it with them so that they can grow and learn and move beyond it.

[ap Dafydd]

This is something i'd like to get other peoples opinions on but do you think that a lot of modern Pagans have a victim mentality or as i've seen it called the 'more persecuted than thou' syndrom, where constantly, they will go on and on and on about how persecuted they are, about how the 'big, bad Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc' are coming to 'get them' or whatever.

It just seems like many Pagans do have this victim mentality (here on Mystic wicks, the majority don't seem to have it, i've only really seen a few),

Actually I'd say that Mystic Wicks is fairly typical.

I don't see most Pagans having any sort of a victim mentality, and if anyone does start getting precious, then the majority are quite ready to have a quiet word with them to put them straight.

Which is a good thing. It means that if there are _genuine_ examples of Pagans suffering discrimination or insult, then they can be seriously addressed without trivia getting in the way.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Kaylara]

Some people will just be more-persecuted-than-thou no matter what religion they follow. They need to feel that they are no responsible for whatever it is that is upsetting them. No. It's THOSE PEOPLE over there. Dehumanizing and devaluing those whom they think are oppressing them.

Personally, I think these people need to get a helmet and take personal responsibility. So your life is shitty? Do something about it. Don't just sit there and wallow in it and while blaming someone else. If you sit down and blame someone else, and then just take whatever someone else is giving you, without changing your own behavior/outlook/perspective/life then you're allowing yourself to be persecuted. At this point in history there is no reason why you should have to stay in your situation that is so shitty that you feel the need to whine about being constantly persecuted. It's only you who is holding you back from remedying that.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I myself have undergone some distress caused by Christians in the past, but mysteriously, I got over it and like them just as much as I did before. Should I ever be really, really be discriminated against for my beliefs, then I will in all probability loathe and despise the person who has done that, and not the religion, for it's not the religion's fault that people are asshats.
I really think that most 'persecuted' pagans should just shut the hell up and get over themselves. Seriously, you guys. Seriously.

[Sequoia]

I've found that the easiest way to avoid persecution for being "a pagan" is to not wear a pentacle the size of a hubcap whilst glaring at classmates.

[Tanemon]

David... thanks for starting this interesting thread. :)

I guess the word "pagan" comes originally (if I'm remembering this accurately) from a Latin word, pagani. I believe that meant "rural people" in the sense of those 'backward country folks' in the Roman Empire... Italy and lands just around that area. Then later it came to have it's meaning of 'non-Christian' and 'non-Jewish', at a time when the official religion of the Roman Empire had newly become Christianity. But later, Christian writers and officials began to apply the term to any non-Christian religions (including those of India, China, Eastern Europe, the Americas, and everywhere).

Now I may have some of these "facts" a bit wrong, but I'm not trying to put too fine a point on the history anyway. :hehehehe: Cause my real point is that some pagans today or in the last, say, 15 years may have felt persecuted for some reason, and some may not have felt that way at all. If we're including Buddhism, yoga/Vedanta, Daoism and stuff in this, well I don't think the persecution in the West in recent years has been too bad.

And I'd say there's a difference between real persecution and people "giving you a look that makes you feel 'dirty' or inferior". There may be parts of the U.S. where belonging to certain churches (like Episcopalian) may be an important cornerstone of "upper crust" society, along with certain manners, family lineages, income level... but even that's maybe different from persecution.

There's a writer I used to read a lot who brought out a lot of history, knowledge, theology, and stuff like that about paganism (it was one of his strong interests... besides Buddhism). His name is Gary Snyder.

He always seemed to live a pretty joyful life, from what you could tell. So that was important for me to learn from... :boing:

A link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Snyder

He seemed to feel that, in modern times, the Earth was more persecuted than pagans.

Anyways, for what it's worth...

:sunny: Tanemon

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I've found that the easiest way to avoid persecution for being "a pagan" is to not wear a pentacle the size of a hubcap whilst glaring at classmates.

Aye, indeed. 'Course, back in high school I wore an ankh. However, for the past few years (and this year has involved college) I've worn a plain silver pentacle necklace the exact size of a toonie, and no-one has said anything negative. Several people have said it's very nice.
if you don't know what a toonie is, well, it's a Canadian two-dollar coin that's slightly bigger than a loonie (one-dollar coin).

[Sequoia]

Aye, indeed. 'Course, back in high school I wore an ankh. However, for the past few years (and this year has involved college) I've worn a plain silver pentacle necklace the exact size of a toonie, and no-one has said anything negative. Several people have said it's very nice.
if you don't know what a toonie is, well, it's a Canadian two-dollar coin that's slightly bigger than a loonie (one-dollar coin).

... your dollars are coins? :lol:

Hehe, I have no idea what size that is. I've only ever seen a Canadian penny, or a $5 bill. (bwahaha) I figure that 1" in diameter is fine... more than that, and you're probably going to start attracting more attention than you wanted to.

[Semele]

In general among pagan friends I have only heard the more persecuted than thou come out in conversations where someone has pointed out the persecution of another group. Kind of a compare and contrast or reference that every religion suffers persecution at one point or another.