pentacles and Wealth

[plumedsnake]

I's just wondering. If Pantacles are associated with the Element of EArth adn also of material wealth, how does that connect.

I associate Earth with SEnsation as opposed to imagination (water) or thoughts (Air). I'm painting with extremely broad strokes here.
Wealth however I associate with valuables. The evaluation of things. Why should pentacles suggest money and riches. Couldn't it also sugtgest a very material tactile, senses based experience that doesn't necessarily have to do with evaluating the materials. Values, I would have thought, falls under the realms of concepts (air).

Any thoughts anybody?

[Bix]

I don't always associate pentacles with material wealth. I see them as more physical representation of things, which can include material wealth.

[FaerieStorm]

The association between Pentacles and Weath/Money lies in the connection between physical work and earning a living. In Western society, work = money and wealth; work = nutrition and clothing and shelter. They go hand-in-hand. That, IMO, is where the connection originates.

I completely understand plumedsnake's argument regarding the abstract nature of money and riches, so how the cards are interpreted should always lie in the connections between individual arcanum and the Suite with which they are associated.

-FS-

[covenofkeys]

i own a very very very old pentacle necklace{not permitted to say who i acquired it from} but....it is worth a few, if that counts! thing is {bummer she says} im in the poverty line, alongside that im in a council house....~thinks of selling it.....then thinks er....no!~
lol

>>>AND SHE MISREAD THE ENTIRE FORUM!!! LOL WHOOPS<<<
JUST IGNORE ME!

[iucey]

Not sure if this is useful got this somewhere can't remember:

Suit of Coins (Pentacles)

This suit represents the element of Earth; deals in material and financial situations.

[business voodoo]

I's just wondering. If Pantacles are associated with the Element of EArth adn also of material wealth, how does that connect.

***
Values, I would have thought, falls under the realms of concepts (air).



"discs [pentacles] represent the magic of earth and the ability of life to sustain itself." (mother peace)

one doesn't have to look far in the pagen tradition to see what pentacles represents as magic to manifest. therefore, pentacles or discs represents that which we are able to create and that which somehow sustains us. very physical and very magical at the same time.

value, on the other hand, comes not from magic or manifestation, but from something else ... perhaps somewhere between wands and cups ... fire and water ... the balance of that which we give and that which we take is reflected in our values.

[plumedsnake]

The association between Pentacles and Weath/Money lies in the connection between physical work and earning a living. In Western society, work = money and wealth; work = nutrition and clothing and shelter. They go hand-in-hand. That, IMO, is where the connection originates.
-

Hmm. . . I don't know how much I agree with that. In Western society, as in many societies around the world, the wealthy were not the guys would did all the work, but the guys who rode on horses and brandished swords and shields. surely the association would therefore be with wands and wealth, or swords and wealth.

Also, I'm not sure that the pentacles represent Work. IF the work is physical exertion then I would associate it more with the element fire. IF the work involves using the intellect then I would associate it with Air.

I don't even see EArth as an element of exertion or expression in anyway. I just see it as the world as experienced through the senses (sensation). This excludes things experienced through the imagination, or things experienced as concepts etc. ie democracy is a concept and it is a part of our reality but you can't see or touch democracy.

Wealth and VAlue are also concepts. Money is just a piece of paper. In fact those notes that we hold on to so dearly are nothing but promises to pay (issued by the state bank) the holder something of real value.
Apart from money, looking at the value of other things, value is something that is so ephemeral. The value of things go up and down all the time. It is just an idea. a thing is worth what you think it is worth. Change your mind and the value changes. I used to love Mars bars and would do anything for a mars bar. Now I can't stand them and wouldn't eat one even if given it for free.
But that is just a person's individual value system. There is then the values of other's to be considered. I would happily throw that mars bar in my pocket into the bin until I realise that my buddy John loves Mars bars so much that he is willing to pay 5 pounds for one. Five pounds! All of a sudden the Mars bars in my pocket is not something one ought to toss away so hastily.
So there are different kinds of values. Personal values (what it's worth to me) and then percieved values(what it's worth to others). All this I find is a far cry from the basic sensory experience of an object.

[FaerieStorm]

Hmm. . . I don't know how much I agree with that. In Western society, as in many societies around the world, the wealthy were not the guys would did all the work, but the guys who rode on horses and brandished swords and shields. surely the association would therefore be with wands and wealth, or swords and wealth.

Also, I'm not sure that the pentacles represent Work. IF the work is physical exertion then I would associate it more with the element fire. IF the work involves using the intellect then I would associate it with Air.

I don't even see EArth as an element of exertion or expression in anyway. I just see it as the world as experienced through the senses (sensation). This excludes things experienced through the imagination, or things experienced as concepts etc. ie democracy is a concept and it is a part of our reality but you can't see or touch democracy.

Wealth and VAlue are also concepts. Money is just a piece of paper. In fact those notes that we hold on to so dearly are nothing but promises to pay (issued by the state bank) the holder something of real value.
Apart from money, looking at the value of other things, value is something that is so ephemeral. The value of things go up and down all the time. It is just an idea. a thing is worth what you think it is worth. Change your mind and the value changes. I used to love Mars bars and would do anything for a mars bar. Now I can't stand them and wouldn't eat one even if given it for free.
But that is just a person's individual value system. There is then the values of other's to be considered. I would happily throw that mars bar in my pocket into the bin until I realise that my buddy John loves Mars bars so much that he is willing to pay 5 pounds for one. Five pounds! All of a sudden the Mars bars in my pocket is not something one ought to toss away so hastily.
So there are different kinds of values. Personal values (what it's worth to me) and then percieved values(what it's worth to others). All this I find is a far cry from the basic sensory experience of an object.

If the suite of Pentacles doesn't represent work, then how do you interprete the three and eight of pentacles? Sure looks like they're working to me. Wands seem to speak to enterprise and creative business endeavors. To me, Wands are the suite of Business Men and Women, while Pentacles is the suite of endurance and hard, down-and-dirty work. Granted, our concept of "work" has changed in the last century or so, but we have to attribute Pentacles to something...and sitting at a desk these days is work.


I do agree that Air (swords) and Fire (wands) do play a big part in the whole scheme of work and enterprise, but all the elements/suites have their place in almost every aspect of life.

-FS-

[business voodoo]

also bear in mind that we are speaking that "work" in the sense of pentacles relates to that of the earth, which has nothing to do with wealth. i try to look at it this way ... the work of pentacles is that which maintains the earth's functioning ... whether its sacred circles of fire rituals, or harvesting the roots of medicine, or building a water purification system ... all those are very pentacle related exercises and events. (edit note: the following list came from the top of my head, i haven't really thought too much about the references in relation to the suit, so i may disagree with them later .... ) the work done in the air realm may include banking, stocks, politics, philosophy, etc. the work done in the fire realm may include, perhaps, more modern medicine including surgery, farming, manufacturing of goods, etc. the work done in the water realm may include hospitals/hospices, religions, schools.

there is a time in a reading depending on the consciousness level and spread/question being presented, where pentacles relates to the 'worldly return' for effort, though. in our modern times, that represents payment in monetary or trade terms.

[plumedsnake]

If the suite of Pentacles doesn't represent work, then how do you interprete the three and eight of pentacles? Sure looks like they're working to me. -FS-

I thought about that and then I also realised that the cards depict a confluence of different energies. 3 of pentacles is not just an earthy energy but the Influence of the Energy of 3 and the element of earth.

So if you accept the idea that the cards are depictions of energies on the sepher Sephiroth (qabalistic tree of life) and that therefore 3 represents a Saturnine energy while 8 represents an energy of Mercury, . . . Then maybe the work aspect of the cards is confered by Saturn. I assume that you are referring to the Rider Waite pack. in this pack 2 people are observing a third putting the finishing touches to a building. If saturn is structure and ideological construction, then 3 of pentacles would be the manifestation of the idea as a physical experience. The bringing to manifestation of something that was concieved a while ago.
And as for the 8 of coins, mercury is noted for his skills and for learning. The guy there might be learning a skill or working, yes and this skill is being applied to things that can be seen and touched. In fact, to the extent that mercury is involved in employment, this card would mean getting a job or something, but this is due to the confluence of mercury and Earth, not just to earth.

Another thing that has been bugging me, I don't know if I should start a new thread for this as it is a bit off topic . . . I shall press on in this thread:
2 is associated with the sea (in qaballah's sepher sephiroth - Binah). Would this explain why in the two cards there is a sea in the Background?. Except (funny enough) in the suit of Cups. And can the meaning of the cards be arrived at from first principles by considering the combined influence of the energy of 2 with the energy of the suit?

[business voodoo]

and to add to that plumedsnake ...

speaking of the numerological aspect of the cards ...

3 is the the number of 'manifestation', it is what is created from the joining of 1+2, yang+yin, assertion+response. it is what is the 'manifest potential first seen' that is then formulated into a foundation (4).

8 is the number of physical building in all manner of contexts ... it is the number of power and responsibility ... it is the number in the cycle where what was initiated at the 1 comes to its ultimate fruition (for better or for worse) -- what the manifest potential turned into after creating a foundation and proceeding through steps 5-7 as well.

often work comes after something manifests ... here's the dough, now make something with it (3 energy) or here ... you've been awarded the contract, now get to it (8 energy).

so those numbers in particular as relating to pentacles, and all the suits, have very much a 'manifestation' or mundane aspect to them.

the sea often to 'consciousness' as well ... and is likely an allusory symbol as 2 is related to the high priestess as well. the two of cups to me is the reception and integration of spirit energy from within and without and balancing those two which is a form of union and love ... equally receiving and giving.