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Aina
November 2nd, 2006, 08:44 AM
Hello everyone...This is rather embaressing but maybe I should start from the beginning. I was born and raised in a Seventh Day Adventist family (Christian). We went (go) to church on Saturday (which alot of people tend to argue with me about...even my fiance). Anways, it has been many years about eight to be exact, since I've been to church. Around my senior year of high school I found myself drawn to the path of Wicca. My best friend is Wiccan, but she had graduated a year before me. I found myself wanted to pratice more and more, and I even found myself praying to Artemis...^^ . But, I also found myself praying to God, and talking to Jesus, just as I would to any god or goddess. I believe that there is no other god before the Lord Jesus Christ...but I also believe that their are gods and godesses helping him out..Well my senior year I found that I was heavily immersing myself into Wicca, and it wasn't long before my parents found out. I wore a the Wiccan Star, but kept it hidden under my shirts. On other days, I would wear my cross, or both. My mother found out about my practies, and made me destroy my alter, break my Wiccan Star and throw it away, burn my BOS, and break my wand (of which i spent a VERY good amount of time making). I felt rejected and very alone. So I prayed to God, I prayed that maybe He could just keep me company. And then I found my fiance, who thinks Wicca is silly. He's a strong Chirstian,not a Bible-thumper. When he met me, I was still practicing (or trying to). Now, he and I are getting married in 2008. He doesn't know that I sometimes astral, share engery with him, or clean out our apartment from time to time. I feel that I am a Christian, but there's something else. Like the phrase "God-given ablities". I'm very confused....if anyone has any good thoughts..I'd greatly appreciatete it...Amen..Blessed Be.

Carla O'Harris
November 2nd, 2006, 09:22 AM
Some of the medieval Jesus-Magdalene material (hinted at by "The Da Vinci Code", which has an authentic substratum beneath the fiction) could be syncretized with the duotheistic structure of the Lord and Lady in Wicca, especially if one makes a connection between Magdalene and Sophia. The presence of a Goddess alongside Yahweh in Jewish tradition has been confirmed. Interestingly, Mormons affirm a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father, and their tradition stems from a family of cunning folk who used seer stones to construct a syncretic Christian tradition. So there is a lot of possibility for playing with this. There's also the fact that Wicca is linked to the realm of Faery (Gardner suggesting that the circle invokes that realm), and that the realm of Faery was often experienced as a Utopian realm where dreams could be realized and sometimes even where there was no private property ("neither mine nor thine"), which could very readily be connected to Jesus' vision of the Kingdom of Heaven. Interestingly, Jesus uses a great deal of agricultural and harvest metaphors to describe this Kingdom, which links him with the Harvest Lord, and like many of the pagan dying-and-rising gods, he dies and is reborn. A connection with Osiris, Dionysus, and Freyr in Northern Europe exists, and these figures were most definitely Harvest Lord figures who would have an association with the Lord in Wicca. Jesus promised that those who followed his vision would have the power to heal, control demons, and prophecy ; this can definitely be connected to the activity of cunning folk (witches), and would have been sensed by native cunning folk in Europe when Christianity was imported. So I wouldn't give up your connections here yet --- there is a great deal to work with.

Aina
November 2nd, 2006, 09:54 AM
Wow! Thank you for your great information!!

Carla O'Harris
November 2nd, 2006, 10:00 AM
My pleasure! :hahugh:

Silverfire Darkmoon
November 2nd, 2006, 11:03 AM
Er.....you can't really mix two different religions. Religion and philosophy, yes (ie, Buddhist/Shinto in Japan) but two wholly different religions, no.

Sage Rainsong
November 2nd, 2006, 11:07 AM
Many people believe that it is indeed possible. Many do not. It is really a matter of personal opinion. What really matters is your opinion. There are also many resources for you. Here are some websites:

http://www.christianwicca.org/

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/4885/cwj_index.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2592/index.html

http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/

http://devoted.to/thechristianwitch

Good luck in your spiritual search!

Brightshores
November 2nd, 2006, 11:32 AM
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible at some level..

Obviously - you can't blend the two religions at a fundamentalist level - you can't for example interpret the Bible as inerrant, word-for-word truth, while also practicing hard-polytheistic Wicca, without bringing up some rather difficult contradictions. But, you can believe in the Bible as allegory and symbolism while practicing at least some forms of Wicca, IMHO. If you practice both forms of spirituality, each, for you, will be affected and changed by the practice of the other - and if you are OK with that, go for it.

Anyway - I think syncretism can be a beautiful thing, and I think it's great and very meaningful to take two separate forms of spirituality that call to you, and blend them into something uniquely your own.

Good luck finding your path... :)

LostSheep
November 2nd, 2006, 12:39 PM
Er.....you can't really mix two different religions. Religion and philosophy, yes (ie, Buddhist/Shinto in Japan) but two wholly different religions, no.

sweeping statement, no?

I believe that yes, it is possible ... if you take Christianity as meaning what is attributed to Jesus, and bearing in mind that a lot of the New Testament was added later by Paul and developed by the Catholic church, and much of the Old Testament was relevant to its time but wasn't so relevant by Jesus' time, as he himself acknowledged, saying that he hadn't come to supersede it but to update it, essentially.

I think you can reconcile a pantheistic view of God, if not an absolutely polytheistic one, and the masculine/feminine duality, with the idea of God that Jesus talked about, even if that doesn't match with the Old Testament style of 'no God but me'. I think that Jesus' version of what he saw as the ideal relationship with God isn't incompatible with the view that many pagan paths have with the God/Goddesses.

Fiamma
November 2nd, 2006, 12:56 PM
:fpraise: :fpraise:
Hello everyone...This is rather embaressing but maybe I should start from the beginning. I was born and raised in a Seventh Day Adventist family (Christian). We went (go) to church on Saturday (which alot of people tend to argue with me about...even my fiance). Anways, it has been many years about eight to be exact, since I've been to church. Around my senior year of high school I found myself drawn to the path of Wicca. My best friend is Wiccan, but she had graduated a year before me. I found myself wanted to pratice more and more, and I even found myself praying to Artemis...^^ . But, I also found myself praying to God, and talking to Jesus, just as I would to any god or goddess. I believe that there is no other god before the Lord Jesus Christ...but I also believe that their are gods and godesses helping him out..Well my senior year I found that I was heavily immersing myself into Wicca, and it wasn't long before my parents found out. I wore a the Wiccan Star, but kept it hidden under my shirts. On other days, I would wear my cross, or both. My mother found out about my practies, and made me destroy my alter, break my Wiccan Star and throw it away, burn my BOS, and break my wand (of which i spent a VERY good amount of time making). I felt rejected and very alone. So I prayed to God, I prayed that maybe He could just keep me company. And then I found my fiance, who thinks Wicca is silly. He's a strong Chirstian,not a Bible-thumper. When he met me, I was still practicing (or trying to). Now, he and I are getting married in 2008. He doesn't know that I sometimes astral, share engery with him, or clean out our apartment from time to time. I feel that I am a Christian, but there's something else. Like the phrase "God-given ablities". I'm very confused....if anyone has any good thoughts..I'd greatly appreciatete it...Amen..Blessed Be.

My take:

Christian witchcraft? Sure.

Christian Wicca? Not so much. They're two ifferent religions with conflicting elements.

Wicca- God and Goddess
Christianity- God, Jesus, Mary

Wicca- Celebrates the Wheel of the year as a cycle of death, rebirth and fertility, including the god being born, consirting with the goddess- his mother- and dying
Christianity- Jesus died for your sinsso you could be saved and live in eternal glory with god.

Wicca- God and Goddess and/or many deities/aspects of deity
Christianity- One god, frequently in Trinity who isn't down with the worship of other deities

you get the idea

If you were to somehow blend the two, you'd get something that isn't Christianity and isn't Wicca, and I think, would be really disrespectful of both to try to say that it is one the other or both. It would be...something else. And you'd have to find a way to reconcile conflicting elements.

Based on what you've written it doesn't look like you're practicing Wicca anyway, but some form of theistic witchcraft. Which is all well and good.

Silver Crow2
November 2nd, 2006, 03:55 PM
@ Aina

For whatever reason, you are drawn toward two paths. You can try and reconcile them. I feel that EVENTUALLY, you will be pulled one direction - or the other.

Given the fact that you are in love with a person who is apparently a strong Christian and who has some reservations about your witchy-poo-ness, why don't we get practical for a moment.....

What would happen to your marriage, say 4 or 5 years from now, if you decide Christianity is simply not for you? That, in your praying to God and seeking help/guidance etc, you realize that your guides/dieties are actually somebody something else, that you now understand more fully or just differently?

What might it mean if you have children with this person, and there are disputes about religious upbringing?

It is never too early to really discuss these things with your future mate.

It seems to me that if you decide Christianity is for you, there would be no problems on the home front (religion wise)

Good luck...enjoy the adventure.

Bill







sweeping statement, no?

I believe that yes, it is possible ... if you take Christianity as meaning what is attributed to Jesus, and bearing in mind that a lot of the New Testament was added later by Paul


I love it! I think you keep forgetting that the earliest Christian writings we have ARE PAUL's (not the Gospels, not even the gospel of Mark)...but I digress.

Jesus didn't write anything....except once, in the dirt, that we know of, and we assume that story was told truthfully ;)

Carla O'Harris
November 2nd, 2006, 08:52 PM
Er.....you can't really mix two different religions. Religion and philosophy, yes (ie, Buddhist/Shinto in Japan) but two wholly different religions, no.

I must respectfully disagree with you. I would argue that the syncretic tendency is a natural folk tendency. It is usually priesthoods that attempt to control and regulate this tendency.

WiccanGoddess
November 2nd, 2006, 08:58 PM
Silverfire Darkmoon: Why can't you mix two different religions? Especially religions that share origins. (Christianity shares origins with Paganism, Wicca shares origins with Paganism.)

Faith is about just that: Faith. If you have to intermingle the two, so be it.

Twinkle
November 2nd, 2006, 09:39 PM
I'm not sure that Christianity and Wicca actually share origins.

Historically, I'm not altogether sure that that is accurate.

I would say that Witchcraft and Christianity work...but not Christianity and Wicca.

Christianity is Abrahamic...Wicca non-Abrahamic. That gives you a conflict right there.

There is no goddess in Christianity, no sacred feminine. Lots of people like to take Mary and Mary Magdelene and say that she is God in feminine form...but that is not what the vast majority of Christians believe.

Gnostic Christians believe it...and that's great....but they are considered heretics.

Really....if you want to call yourself a Christian Wiccan and make that work for you...who am I to judge it?

Just be aware that a lot of Wiccans will not accept it...and a lot of Christians won't either.

WiccanGoddess
November 2nd, 2006, 09:46 PM
Wicca connects to Celtic Paganism.

Christianity ties and connects to Celtic Paganism. (Origins of the holiday ideas come into play. Notice I said 'ideas' and not 'names'. The names are purely as they stand: Christian.)

Christianity's origins lie in that of ancient Paganism, as do Wicca's, so I'm failing to see the 'not sharing' of the origins.

Witchcraft and Christianity? The Bible states clearly (though, do not ask me to credit it until this weekend when I have a Bible in my hand. ;) ) against Witchcraft, but never against Wicca or Paganism...maybe Paganism, I'll check upon that.

What does it matter, Abrahamic or not? Shouldn't it matter what you believe? If one wants to believe in Jesus, God, and a Goddess, so be it. It's not hurting anyone, methinks.

Twinkle
November 2nd, 2006, 09:58 PM
Wicca connects to Celtic Paganism.

Christianity ties and connects to Celtic Paganism. (Origins of the holiday ideas come into play. Notice I said 'ideas' and not 'names'. The names are purely as they stand: Christian.)

Christianity's origins lie in that of ancient Paganism, as do Wicca's, so I'm failing to see the 'not sharing' of the origins.

Witchcraft and Christianity? The Bible states clearly (though, do not ask me to credit it until this weekend when I have a Bible in my hand. ;) ) against Witchcraft, but never against Wicca or Paganism...maybe Paganism, I'll check upon that.

What does it matter, Abrahamic or not? Shouldn't it matter what you believe? If one wants to believe in Jesus, God, and a Goddess, so be it. It's not hurting anyone, methinks.


Couple of things:

Wicca and Christianity do not share core beliefs. The holidays and things that you're talking about were adopted by Christians to make the conversion of pagans to Christians easier. The idea is not the same. The belief system is not the same.

Wicca wasn't around at the time of the bible. Paganism was. The First Commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me. Pretty clearly
stated in the Bible that it's a no-no.

I absolutely believe that people should believe what they want to believe. The issue that I have is people calling themselves something that they are not.

Why call it Christian Wicca? Why not call it your own personal spirituality? Or Eclecticism?

Christian Wicca (imo) is neither Christian, nor Wiccan.

WiccanGoddess
November 2nd, 2006, 10:01 PM
Wicca and Christianity don't share core beliefs? Christmas celebrations...much like Greek Yule. Easter celebrations...much like Pagan Ostara...so on and so forth. Much alike. Creepily...



The First Commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me. Pretty clearly
stated in the Bible that it's a no-no.

But the Bible is manmad, man altered. That could have easily been placed by man in attempt of starting something that wasn't there.



I absolutely believe that people should believe what they want to believe. The issue that I have is people calling themselves something that they are not.

Why? *Curious question*




Why call it Christian Wicca? Why not call it your own personal spirituality? Or Eclecticism?

Because it's a combination of Christianity and Wicca, and the simplest thing is to put the two names together. It's not hurting anyone, nor is it hurting the faith systems, as that's how faith systems begin: Imagination and combination.

Twinkle
November 2nd, 2006, 10:32 PM
The celebrations are alike simply because they are Pagan. When Christianity was on a mission to convert Pagans to Christianity they adopted similar holidays to make the transition easier. You know that Easter celebrates a different thing altogether than the Pagan Holiday. As I said...the core beliefs are different. I don't see how you can say that Yule is the same as Christmas.

Your opinion of the Bible is one I agree with...however most Christians would not. Even Christians that don't accept the Bible as literal text still feel that it is spiritually inspired by God.

I have personal issues (and you know, I realize that it's my problem...but commonly shared with others of like mind)....Really...imo Christian Wicca is a really poor and historically inaccurate way of trying to meld two different belief systems. As I said...it's my opinion...and I just don't accept Christian Wicca.

Christian Wicca is not a dual belief system...the combination that you're talking about does not take the core elements of Christianity with (whatever they are) the core tenets of Wicca. It would be impossible to do so and maintain that they are incorporating Christianity and Wicca. They are taking some elements of both...but not the core elements.

Once again, people should believe whatever they want to believe because they believe it....just don't call it something it's not.

WiccanGoddess
November 2nd, 2006, 11:18 PM
The celebrations are alike simply because they are Pagan.

That's my point...or I thought I clarified that.



You know that Easter celebrates a different thing altogether than the Pagan Holiday.

No, I don't know that. I know Easter as finding hidden eggs and dressing up as the Easter Bunny. I also know Ostara as quite similar.



Even Christians that don't accept the Bible as literal text still feel that it is spiritually inspired by God.

While I know this as true for some, you have Christians out there admitting to it being man made.



I have personal issues (and you know, I realize that it's my problem...but commonly shared with others of like mind)....Really...imo Christian Wicca is a really poor and historically inaccurate way of trying to meld two different belief systems. As I said...it's my opinion...and I just don't accept Christian Wicca.

Thank you for answering my question.



the combination that you're talking about does not take the core elements of Christianity with (whatever they are) the core tenets of Wicca.

But does it have to be the core elements, or just elements in general?



It would be impossible to do so and maintain that they are incorporating Christianity and Wicca. They are taking some elements of both...but not the core elements.

But why is it the core elements that only count? Many other elements make to a belief system.



just don't call it something it's not.

And who's to say what it is an isn't but the Faith Maker themselves?

Fiamma
November 2nd, 2006, 11:36 PM
And who's to say what it is an isn't but the Faith Maker themselves?


Well...you can believe anything you want. But Wicca is one thing and Christianity is another. If you figure out a way to combine the two, it's NOT going to be the same- something crucial is going to have to be compromised, they're two religions that are already defined and pretty widely accepted for those definitions and there are certain conflicting elements. If something crucial is compromised, it's no longer the original.

Its not to say that someone can't figure out a way to mush the two together, ONLY saying that the old labels don't apply.

fangedeshana
November 2nd, 2006, 11:37 PM
I believe you can mix as many things as you like together. But I dont think it's right to lable it anything but "a personal path" or something generic, or Eclectic.

Most people I know who say they are Christian Wiccan, or Wiccan Christians are actually Christian Witches. It annoys me that Wicca and Witchcraft are still used as interchangable terms for the same thing, when they really aren't. It doesn't help that popular writers tend to also be guilty of this..

EDIT: I'm just going to add what Fiamma said, which is my point also.. "Its not to say that someone can't figure out a way to mush the two together, ONLY saying that the old labels don't apply."

Twinkle
November 2nd, 2006, 11:40 PM
I thought I explained again why the similarities exist. They exist because Christianity adopted them to convert Pagans. That does not equate that Christianity has pagan origins...Celtic or otherwise.

Because you don't know...I'll tell you. Easter is celebrated as Holy Day, the Resurrection of Christ. The Easter Bunny and all that was adopted for conversion purposes.

Once again...there are some Christians that feel the Bible is man made...but still is spiritually inspired...and therefore worth reading and getting the message that it sends out.

The core tenet of Christianity is Jesus Christ as Savior...so...reading the Bible not as literal text still holds the core tenet of Christianity.


I think the core tenets are important...because that's what makes the religion what it is. If you leave out the core tenets you have nothing but snippets of religions....which does not equal the religion itself.

For example: It would be difficult to say that you are Christian if you worship any other Diety but God (and the trinity)

I'm not saying that Christian Wicca isn't valid to those who practice it. I'm saying that it's not truly a combination of the core tenets of either religion...so why call it that?

SilentDreams
November 3rd, 2006, 12:02 AM
Christianity and Wicca? Not in my eyes. To be a Wiccan(however much you differ from minute details) one has a belief in a God and Goddess etc.. Which really conflicts with Christianity being only one god. You can take and leave different things from the bible that would make Witchcraft okay. But when it comes to deities, it's either God by himself or you're not a Christian in my eyes.

WiccanGoddess
November 3rd, 2006, 12:19 AM
I thought I explained again why the similarities exist. They exist because Christianity adopted them to convert Pagans. That does not equate that Christianity has pagan origins...Celtic or otherwise.

It has Pagan origins, no matter how you look at it. They didn't create the holidays as just means of conversion, but means of keeping to the original.



Because you don't know...I'll tell you. Easter is celebrated as Holy Day, the Resurrection of Christ. The Easter Bunny and all that was adopted for conversion purposes.

Easter was celebrated as a Holy Day, just like Ostara. Ironic, innit?






The core tenet of Christianity is Jesus Christ as Savior...so...reading the Bible not as literal text still holds the core tenet of Christianity.

Okay, so the core tenet is Jesus Christ. Then where does God come in? I thought it was he who was the core tenet?



I think the core tenets are important...because that's what makes the religion what it is. If you leave out the core tenets you have nothing but snippets of religions....which does not equal the religion itself.

But it equals the snippets, and these snippets take the name of the religion, as they are part of it.



For example: It would be difficult to say that you are Christian if you worship any other Diety but God (and the trinity)

No, not that hard. Faith is just that. Faith. Worship who you want, when you want it, believe what you want, however it is set, not letting anyone, especially a book, tell you likewise. I know plenty of Christians who believe in God, Jesus, Mary, and the Wiccan Duo.



I'm not saying that Christian Wicca isn't valid to those who practice it. I'm saying that it's not truly a combination of the core tenets of either religion...so why call it that?

It's not called Christian Wicca for means of the core tenets, but for means of credibility. If they didn't adhere to the names, you'd have fussing that they took and didn't cite, so which way does it go?

PaTheorem
November 3rd, 2006, 12:39 AM
the thing is, to follow the bible as the basis of your beliefs you're essentially putting your spiritual authority in the creators of your bible. i think to integrate christainty and paganism, you'd have to take upon the interpretation of your bible in terms of a liberal standpoint rather than a fundamentalist standpoint (well, duh, right?). the thing is, should you take upon this liberal view of scripture, it may go forth to say that the bible isn't the only divinely inspired work of literature from that era. this speculates that works of say, The Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the apocrypha, even eastern texts could be spiritually 'valid'. if you're looking to integrate paganism with orthodox christainty you may have a long road ahead of you. consider some gnostic texts, at least in a metaphorical sense. it may be easier to integrate these ideas into an earth religion within a gnostic framework. the integration may be easier if you include some of these texts into your system since gnosticism wasn't exculsively a "christian" movement, but rather a philosophy with various ways of interpretation from greek, pagan and other philosophical schools. the gnostics at the time of christ had a particular view of christ's role and taht role may be easier to integrate in to your pagan practice.

here's a pagan's viewpoint on the gosple of thomas:
http://media.libsyn.com/media/secrets/SIPS_PROGRAM29.mp3
here's sacred-texts.com's collection of gnostic texts:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/index.htm

keep in mind that i'm not advocating you to BECOME a gnostic, but rather picking and choosing things that may FEEL better to your particular path and hopefully provide some connections between your seemingly different spiritual backgrounds.

Thunder
November 3rd, 2006, 01:08 AM
The worship of any other God except The God of Abraham and Jesus Christ is anathema to Christianity. You cannot believe in any form of pan / poly theism and still be a Christian. That is the basic tenet of Christianity. If you want to call yourself a pagan or Wiccan who shares some Christian beliefs that is your prerogative, but if a Christian believes in any form of paganism he is (by virtue of that belief) no longer a Christian. Christians are quirky that way.

Carla O'Harris
November 3rd, 2006, 08:01 AM
Funny, Gnostic Christians hated the God of Abraham, and considered him Satan. Some Gnostics were willing to identify Jesus with Attis, Adonis, Osiris, Bacchus --- surely pagan Gods.

So in actual practice rather than rule-bound theory, one can most definitely be Christian and Pagan at the same time, and a great deal of people in the Middle and Early Modern Ages were just that.

Agaliha
November 3rd, 2006, 08:14 AM
Aina, you might want to read these threads as well:

Poll: Christain Wicca (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=60616) (tons of pages and discussion)
No offense, but.... (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57419)
Christian Witchcraft, Christo~Paganism, Christian Wicca, Gnostic Christianity (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57104)
christian wicca? (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=56943)All found here:
Paths: Christian Witchcraft (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=223)


Carry on _inabox_

Faol-chu
November 3rd, 2006, 08:23 AM
Wicca and Christianity don't share core beliefs? Christmas celebrations...much like Greek Yule. Easter celebrations...much like Pagan Ostara...so on and so forth. Much alike. Creepily...

That's not 'beliefs'...that's dates on a calendar...Perceived from a very early date to have significance (beyond simply "religous"), and so incorporated into the 'Christian' (Roman) calendar.

Twinkle
November 3rd, 2006, 08:24 AM
Funny, Gnostic Christians hated the God of Abraham, and considered him Satan. Some Gnostics were willing to identify Jesus with Attis, Adonis, Osiris, Bacchus --- surely pagan Gods.

So in actual practice rather than rule-bound theory, one can most definitely be Christian and Pagan at the same time, and a great deal of people in the Middle and Early Modern Ages were just that.

Anybody can call themselves and be anything they want to be....But I've seen nothing in the Gnostic texts that say that Christians hated the Abrahamic God. If anything, the Gospel of Thomas shows God as even more kind and loving than the texts we see in the edited bible we see today.

And...by the vast majority of Christians...gnostics are not considered Christians. They are considered heretics.

Twinkle
November 3rd, 2006, 08:31 AM
It has Pagan origins, no matter how you look at it. They didn't create the holidays as just means of conversion, but means of keeping to the original.



Easter was celebrated as a Holy Day, just like Ostara. Ironic, innit?






Okay, so the core tenet is Jesus Christ. Then where does God come in? I thought it was he who was the core tenet?



But it equals the snippets, and these snippets take the name of the religion, as they are part of it.



No, not that hard. Faith is just that. Faith. Worship who you want, when you want it, believe what you want, however it is set, not letting anyone, especially a book, tell you likewise. I know plenty of Christians who believe in God, Jesus, Mary, and the Wiccan Duo.



It's not called Christian Wicca for means of the core tenets, but for means of credibility. If they didn't adhere to the names, you'd have fussing that they took and didn't cite, so which way does it go?


1 Your first statement is based on your opinion and not on historical fact. Lots of Non-Abrahamic religions have holy days....doesn't make them share Christian origins....it means they have holy days.

2. God is Jesus Christ. I don't want to make this a lesson in Christianity...but there are three "manifestions" of God...The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is considered God made Man by Christians.

3. Snippets may be a part of a religion, but they are not a religion. An eclectic pagan takes snippets from different belief systems and pantheons, but doesn't claim that they are the religion specifically.

4. You're right. People should believe what they want...but someone who says they are Christian and believes in the god/godess along with God, Jesus and Mary is not a Christian. See Thunder's post.

5. You're also right. It's called Christian Wicca for credibility...which imo is absolutely wrong. It's not Christian, and it's not Wiccan...and to call it that is insulting to both Christians and Wiccans.

Carla O'Harris
November 3rd, 2006, 08:44 AM
Anybody can call themselves and be anything they want to be....But I've seen nothing in the Gnostic texts that say that Christians hated the Abrahamic God. If anything, the Gospel of Thomas shows God as even more kind and loving than the texts we see in the edited bible we see today.

And...by the vast majority of Christians...gnostics are not considered Christians. They are considered heretics.

Religion-by-democracy, eh? What have Gnostics ever cared about the majority?

And yes, many Gnostics indeed felt the God of Moses and Abraham was in fact Yaldabaoth, better known as Satan, and not the Good God of Light.

Aina
November 3rd, 2006, 08:58 AM
Um i'm really sorry that this caused a huge ...disagreement? I've read everyone's replies and I'll be thinking about them..Once again, i'm sorry that this caused much disagreement and fighting. Hehehe, maybe i should just become a Druid! (i'm just joking...^_^)

LostSheep
November 3rd, 2006, 09:27 AM
Why should you be sorry? You're willing to be open minded and not tied down by dogmatism, that's not something to apologise for.

Fiamma
November 3rd, 2006, 10:00 AM
It's not called Christian Wicca for means of the core tenets, but for means of credibility. If they didn't adhere to the names, you'd have fussing that they took and didn't cite, so which way does it go?


I'd find much more credible someone who took elements of two things, combined them and realized that the sum of the parts is crucially different enough from the original pieces that the previous names no longer apply. I've spoken to many others who feel this way as well. I don't think this is a matter of "citing sources" at all. Heck...I worship Greek gods. I also practice Druidry of the ADF flavor. I don't call it "Hellenic Druidry" or "Greek Druidry" because it just isn't. Now, I think there's a lot less potential conflict there in combining the two, but it's still there and I don't think that it's valid to call it Hellenic or Greek Druidry. So depending on the context of the conversation, I might just say that I worship Greek gods and practice ADF-flavored Druidry (Which, in my Grove practice also involves the worship of other european deities)...or I might say that I essentially practice two separate religions in the sense that I worship Greek deities and am trying to figure out where I want to fall in the realm of reconstruction, as well as practicing that particular branch of Druidry.

(note: this is a personal pet peeve that came up due to the topic of the conversation, it isn't directed at anyone who's posted on this thread so far)

Why so many people seem to think that the "Wicca" label is needed to validate their religious practice when what they are doing is clearly not Wicca, and get their knickers in a twist when it's pointed out that "That's not Wicca"?

That's my two euros.

Faol-chu
November 3rd, 2006, 10:03 AM
I'd find much more credible someone who took elements of two things, combined them and realized that the sum of the parts is crucially different enough from the original pieces that the previous names no longer apply. I've spoken to many others who feel this way as well.

For what it's worth, I think you can count me as another who feels this way, as well...:)

moonbride
November 3rd, 2006, 10:11 AM
I'd find much more credible someone who took elements of two things, combined them and realized that the sum of the parts is crucially different enough from the original pieces that the previous names no longer apply.


For what it's worth, I think you can count me as another who feels this way, as well...:)

Ditto... just makes sense. :hahugh:

Crysiira
November 3rd, 2006, 10:15 AM
Um i'm really sorry that this caused a huge ...disagreement? I've read everyone's replies and I'll be thinking about them..Once again, i'm sorry that this caused much disagreement and fighting. Hehehe, maybe i should just become a Druid! (i'm just joking...^_^)


Dear... don't worry. There are times here when even a thread giving a joke or asking for advice can cause a major debate. lol. But this is a good place, really; debate can be really informative when people do it right. Which I think is being done here. Christian Wicca is really a frothy sort of subject; everyone thinks a bit differently about it. I reccommend checking out the threads in the Paths section someone suggested a few posts ago; also talk to a few people on the site who are Christian Witches... Like StephanieAine, and I believe DJMixon, I might be misspelling names but I'm sure they all have posts in the Christian Witchcraft section of the Paths subforum.
Also... this thing with your significant other... I can relate. My fiance is not by any means a hardcore christian, but he was raised with christian beliefs, and it's a little hard for him sometimes to accept the fact that I am so different from his beliefs. I think most of the uncertainty comes from the fact that he knows so little about it; so I'm doing my best to try to explain things to him. You do the same and see if it works! The more he knows, the more willing he should be to accept it. And if you do your best to explain things to him and explain what it means to you and he still calls it silly and puts it down... well... Tread carefully.
Good luck to you with everything. I'm on a similar path-finding adventure myself right now.... I hope everything works out for you!

StephanieAine
November 3rd, 2006, 10:27 AM
sweeping statement, no?

I believe that yes, it is possible ... if you take Christianity as meaning what is attributed to Jesus, and bearing in mind that a lot of the New Testament was added later by Paul and developed by the Catholic church, and much of the Old Testament was relevant to its time but wasn't so relevant by Jesus' time, as he himself acknowledged, saying that he hadn't come to supersede it but to update it, essentially.



I think you can reconcile a pantheistic view of God, if not an absolutely polytheistic one, and the masculine/feminine duality, with the idea of God that Jesus talked about, even if that doesn't match with the Old Testament style of 'no God but me'. I think that Jesus' version of what he saw as the ideal relationship with God isn't incompatible with the view that many pagan paths have with the God/Goddesses.



I don't think that's quite what happened; I think there's a goof in there. Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law (referring to the OT Law) not to destroy it. What he was talking about was the concept of the New Covenant being a fulfillment of the Old, it didn't have to do with the New Testament writings at all.

morningstar2651
November 3rd, 2006, 11:12 AM
"I can see no real reason why one cannot be a good enough though unorthodox Christian and a witch at the same time. It seems to me easier than being a Christian and a Communist." -- Gerald Gardner, Witchcraft Today, p. 121

Fiamma
November 3rd, 2006, 12:36 PM
"I can see no real reason why one cannot be a good enough though unorthodox Christian and a witch at the same time. It seems to me easier than being a Christian and a Communist." -- Gerald Gardner, Witchcraft Today, p. 121


I think most of us have agreed that christianity and Witchcraft can be mixzed without worrying about the terms...it's the label "Christian Wicca" that's so controversial :-P

Twinkle
November 3rd, 2006, 01:56 PM
Exactly.

Thunder
November 3rd, 2006, 04:03 PM
I think most of us have agreed that christianity and Witchcraft can be mixzed without worrying about the terms...it's the label "Christian Wicca" that's so controversial :-P

Of course, you can mix anything you want. You can mix petroleum and milk... you just can't continue to call it milk. It pisses off the cows. :viking:

Kalika
November 5th, 2006, 03:18 PM
Hello everyone...This is rather embaressing but maybe I should start from the beginning. I was born and raised in a Seventh Day Adventist family (Christian). We went (go) to church on Saturday (which alot of people tend to argue with me about...even my fiance). Anways, it has been many years about eight to be exact, since I've been to church. Around my senior year of high school I found myself drawn to the path of Wicca. My best friend is Wiccan, but she had graduated a year before me. I found myself wanted to pratice more and more, and I even found myself praying to Artemis...^^ . But, I also found myself praying to God, and talking to Jesus, just as I would to any god or goddess. I believe that there is no other god before the Lord Jesus Christ...but I also believe that their are gods and godesses helping him out..Well my senior year I found that I was heavily immersing myself into Wicca, and it wasn't long before my parents found out. I wore a the Wiccan Star, but kept it hidden under my shirts. On other days, I would wear my cross, or both. My mother found out about my practies, and made me destroy my alter, break my Wiccan Star and throw it away, burn my BOS, and break my wand (of which i spent a VERY good amount of time making). I felt rejected and very alone. So I prayed to God, I prayed that maybe He could just keep me company. And then I found my fiance, who thinks Wicca is silly. He's a strong Chirstian,not a Bible-thumper. When he met me, I was still practicing (or trying to). Now, he and I are getting married in 2008. He doesn't know that I sometimes astral, share engery with him, or clean out our apartment from time to time. I feel that I am a Christian, but there's something else. Like the phrase "God-given ablities". I'm very confused....if anyone has any good thoughts..I'd greatly appreciatete it...Amen..Blessed Be.

First of all... :hugz: I know how incredibly difficult it is to be torn as you seem to be.

Second, when it comes to religion, I think the better question is "Is this impossible, really?" Who can truly say that?

Religion is such an intensely personal and individual thing that it's really not right to flat out tell someone their path is "wrong". There are many Christian Witches and Wiccans on this board (oddly, I can't think of any off the top of my head) who will hopefully be able to speak with you as needed. If I can think of some names... I'll PM them and make sure it's ok to give you the info. :)

Also, I have to mention... that it probably isn't a good idea to hide this feeling from your SO - especially since you are planning to be married. If he loves you... he should love all of you... and how will you know unless you give him the chance? [/step off soapbox.]

Though, you have some time. You need to figure out what you need for yourself first before you can really talk to someone about it, and explain who and what you are in regards to all of this.

Kalika
November 5th, 2006, 03:20 PM
Aina, you might want to read these threads as well:

Poll: Christain Wicca (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=60616) (tons of pages and discussion)
No offense, but.... (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57419)
Christian Witchcraft, Christo~Paganism, Christian Wicca, Gnostic Christianity (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57104)
christian wicca? (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=56943)All found here:
Paths: Christian Witchcraft (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=223)


Carry on _inabox_

:yourock:

Thank you!