Aboveground or Underground Better?

[Snapdragon]

I've been thinking about this lately, because of the changes that have occurred in and around the Craft since the early-mid 1980s, which is when I was drawn to Wicca. Wicca has become much more widely known--I'm not sure whether to say better known--and there's more acceptance of paganism in general.

Needless to say, not all the changes are agreeable. However, this poll is not about whether you like the general trend of the more public and possibly more diluted nature of Wicca that has resulted...rather, the question I'm hoping you'll answer and comment about, is whether you think Wicca itself is better (more "true" or authentic) if the Craft is largely not in the public eye versus being increasingly visible. What do you think and feel about this?

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I voted for 'Open like other religions'. What could we have to hide?

[Eran]

I voted for a balance. That seems to allow for most possibilities, more diversity, more flexibility that any of the more extreme positions. It's a way of accepting and encouraging both the people who enjoy public sharing, and those who are drawn to things similar to the ancient mystery traditions in which Oaths are absolutely necessary, and for very good reasons.

Diversity Is Good.

[WiccanGoddess]

I voted for 'Open like other religions'. What could we have to hide?

What Silverfire said.

[Elderbush]

Open, for two reasons. First, we really don't have anything to hide. The mysteries can remain mysteries to the people going through them, if one is coven based.

Secondly, we need to be a no-big-deal religion and we are only going to get that if we are visible and people can come to public circles.

[Bix]

I say open. It'll allow people to -hopefully- be more accepting of it since people can learn about it more.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I voted for balance, though I tend toward the Underground, myself. I was very open in college, but I'm finding that not as amenable right now...

But in agreement with Eran, I think Diversity is healthy. Just like I think that Wicca thrives by having both Traditional and Eclectic movements...

Inward and outward forces... Either exploding or imploding destroys a thing... So both forces in balance keep a thing intact. ^_^

[Silver Crow2]

Open, for two reasons. First, we really don't have anything to hide. The mysteries can remain mysteries to the people going through them, if one is coven based.

Secondly, we need to be a no-big-deal religion and we are only going to get that if we are visible and people can come to public circles.

Absolutely.

That doesn't mean you have to flaunt your beliefs (or even that you should).

I do think that pagans should be able to feel safe expressing their beliefs publicly.

I extend the "above ground" to the legal arena. Being American, I think we non-Xtians and non "pretend to be" Xtians should have the same 1st Amendment rights - which have been extended to "you can't be fired etc. for religious beliefs" that everybody else in the country has.

[shuvanilu]

I voted mostly public with some private elements. Not because I think that there is anything that we should have to hide, but most, if not all, religions have rites that are performed privately behind closed doors because they are sacred.---shuvanilu

[Ben Gruagach]

I voted for a conscious balance because I firmly believe there is room within Wicca for both completely public and open groups and rituals, and private groups and rituals for those who desire them.

Not every Wiccan comes to the religion seeking the same things. Not all Wiccans are expected to practice in exactly the same way, or be either completely open and public or completely private. Having both open and private parts allows for the variety to exist.

[KeaErisdottir]

Balance, because it respects the choices and situations of the widest variety of people and harms no one. Any public expectation of either complete closure or complete openness leads to some kind of persecution, which I find objectionable. However, this would not extend to private agreements made between individuals and either teachers or covens and traditions that they belong to.

[arawn58]

In regards to Modern Paganism (including Wicca) I answered, 'Mostly public, with some private or "underground" dimension.' This has also been my individual personal practice since I was initiated back in '83. However, over the past five years my family and I have become less public and are at present, mostly underground.

As an individual Wiccan, I would like to see Modern Paganism become more public and receive the full extent of human rights and civil liberties in my country -- Canada. However, we are not there yet and intollerance still flourishes, even within parts of the government, municipal and provincial. As religions, we do have nothing to hide; but as individuals there are those near and dear to us that we wish to protect. Silverfire, from your photo I would assume that you are still in your twenties. I am approaching fifty, with a professional career, and one minor child still at home. When intollerance still exists, hiding is a form of protection. When the local Children's Aid Society (Canadian version of Child Protective Services) defines Wicca as a dangerous para-religious group and/or satanic cult, there is something to fear...

[Nox_Mortus]

I think it should be mostly underground with some public participation, I have a few reasons for this, one is that Wiccans (and other pagans) still face a certain amount of persecution even here in the US, I know a few people who have lost thier jobs because they where too open about being pagans, obviously this can be taken to court but it's still a lot of trouble that people really should have to deal with unless they really want too. Another big reason is that when you are too open you really start to attract all sorts of yahoos and flakes, this has already started happening and not only does it make us look bad, but it is extreemely annoying to talk to these people at meetings and open circles and whatnot. My final reason is that by opening Wicca up you open up a lot of information about Magic, which a lot of people can't or won't use responisbly, and that can be very dangerous (this one also applies to some other forms of paganism and even Judeo Christian paths to an extent (Quaballah) but Wicca is the most public one right now)

[David19]

I'm not Wiccan, so maybe my opinion doesn't count, but I agree with what Ben said, I think it should be both, there should be public (or outer court) events, etc, but you can also have private, underground practices, covens, traditions, etc.

One of Wicca's strengths, IMO, is that no one person can define what it is, I bet if you ask 10 Wiccans to define Wicca, you'd get 100 different answers.

There are both benefits and negative aspects to being aboveground or underground.

[mtpathy]

X "Underground with only the occasional selected "public voice"

only reason i think paganism is taking the road that it is "wanting to be completely accepted within publics eye", is because paganism as a religion doesnt have a governing body. if it did i believe we would keep our practices much more secret and only let the public view us through our actions "charity events and the like".

instead we've opened up our whole world, philosophy and practices and are now having all of this used against us through biased opinion and the media, people that are wanting to wholy have there pagan path accepted by others have inadvertenly given the media, the churchs, the schools and the government all the ammonition that they need to demonize us, not a intelligent tactic for being accepted in the publics eye, and by definition of what a warlock "oath breaker" would be, would it not?

the pagan & magickal practices will eventually seep back into the shadows out of the public and medias eyes, and will be what it was before and what it should be without a governing body to organize, a secretive group of practitioners that are more concerned with knowing themselves and there gods/magick then wanting to be accepted by others.

hopefully in the next reincarnation of the pagan path coming back into the publics eye "20/ 30 years after it goes back underground" the pagan practitioners themselves will have the forethought of being in positions of authority to actually implament a governing body to control our face in the media and publics eye so that we can actually put ourselves in a position of authority.

until then, we all should just cry and pout and say how unfair all of this is because someone gets fired thats pagan, or gets kicked out of there house cause there a witch, or a child gets suspended from school because of wearing a pentagram..
blame everyone else not outselves seems to be our tactic.

[Nox_Mortus]

X "Underground with only the occasional selected "public voice"

only reason i think paganism is taking the road that it is "wanting to be completely accepted within publics eye", is because paganism as a religion doesnt have a governing body. if it did i believe we would keep our practices much more secret and only let the public view us through our actions "charity events and the like".

instead we've opened up our whole world, philosophy and practices and are now having all of this used against us through biased opinion and the media, people that are wanting to wholy have there pagan path accepted by others have inadvertenly given the media, the churchs, the schools and the government all the ammonition that they need to demonize us, not a intelligent tactic for being accepted in the publics eye, and by definition of what a warlock "oath breaker" would be, would it not?

the pagan & magickal practices will eventually seep back into the shadows out of the public and medias eyes, and will be what it was before and what it should be without a governing body to organize, a secretive group of practitioners that are more concerned with knowing themselves and there gods/magick then wanting to be accepted by others.

hopefully in the next reincarnation of the pagan path coming back into the publics eye "20/ 30 years after it goes back underground" the pagan practitioners themselves will have the forethought of being in positions of authority to actually implament a governing body to control our face in the media and publics eye so that we can actually put ourselves in a position of authority.

until then, we all should just cry and pout and say how unfair all of this is because someone gets fired thats pagan, or gets kicked out of there house cause there a witch, or a child gets suspended from school because of wearing a pentagram..
blame everyone else not outselves seems to be our tactic.

The problem with a governing body in Paganism is that no one would submit to it, theres too much disagreement even in Wicca for there to be a governing body, let alone all of the other pagan religions.

[mtpathy]

The problem with a governing body in Paganism is that no one would submit to it, theres too much disagreement even in Wicca for there to be a governing body, let alone all of the other pagan religions.

nope you have that backwards, theres to much disagreement in the pagan and magickal paths because theres not a governing body, honestly its not that i really care for paganism "or other magickal paths" to be in the publics eye, i personely would prefer it not to be, but everyone is so insistent on the public accepting paganism as a valid religious and philsophical practice and yet the majority of pagans are implamenting that media acceptance with the intelligence of monkeys throwing poo.
dont get me wrong, there are a few circles that are giving to charity, volunteering there time with the banner of wicca/paganism and all around giving the pagan path a loving and caring face for the public to familierize themselves with, but this is very far and few between, and the lack of intelligent implamentation of the pagan community to put themselves into the publics eye in a constructive manner is imo emberassing.

[Nox_Mortus]

nope you have that backwards, theres to much disagreement in the pagan and magickal paths because theres not a governing body, honestly its not that i really care for paganism "or other magickal paths" to be in the publics eye, i personely would prefer it not to be, but everyone is so insistent on the public accepting paganism as a valid religious and philsophical practice and yet the majority of pagans are implamenting that media acceptance with the intelligence of monkeys throwing poo.
dont get me wrong, there are a few circles that are giving to charity, volunteering there time with the banner of wicca/paganism and all around giving the pagan path a loving and caring face for the public to familierize themselves with, but this is very far and few between, and the lack of intelligent implamentation of the pagan community to put themselves into the publics eye in a constructive manner is imo emberassing.

governing body or not people are going to disagree, you also have to consider that a lot of people are into paganism for the simple reason that we have no power structure or governing body. I agree that it would help with PR issues, but it would also alienate a lot of people, and governing body or not, you aren't going to get people to agree just because someone says they have too.

[mtpathy]

governing body or not people are going to disagree, you also have to consider that a lot of people are into paganism for the simple reason that we have no power structure or governing body. I agree that it would help with PR issues, but it would also alienate a lot of people, and governing body or not, you aren't going to get people to agree just because someone says they have too.

its good that there are two different points of view, it helps to flesh out the argument however wether theres agreement or disagreement with my opinion, all that needs to be done to prove me correct is to look at religious paths that have solidified themselves within the publics minds, this is the information age, battles within our country are won and lost through the spin given to mass media.
as ive said before i honestly couldnt care one way or another, although i find it very entertaining the contradiction people tend to walk, they want religious and philosophical acceptance within the publics/mass medias eye and yet they dont want to follow or be part of a governing body that can give them that freedom of open religion, and yet ....

instead we've opened up our whole world, philosophy and practices and are now having all of this used against us through biased opinion and the media, people that are wanting to wholy have there pagan path accepted by others have inadvertenly given the media, the churchs, the schools and the government all the ammonition that they need to demonize us, not a intelligent tactic for being accepted in the publics eye, and by definition of what a warlock "oath breaker" would be, would it not?.
i look forward to the time that paganism goes back underground, but its going to die a slow painful humiliating death before it gets there..

[jetpiston]

nope you have that backwards, theres to much disagreement in the pagan and magickal paths because theres not a governing body...
No, I don't think he has it backward. The best thing any 'pagan governing body' could ever hope to get out of me (and the witches I know) is a hearty laugh in their faces.

The philosophies and practices vary so widely within the so-called "Pagan" realm that there is no way a single organization could hope to effectively represent them equally.

-Jet Piston
Gard 3*

[mtpathy]

No, I don't think he has it backward. The best thing any 'pagan governing body' could ever hope to get out of me (and the witches I know) is a hearty laugh in their faces.

The philosophies and practices vary so widely within the so-called "Pagan" realm that there is no way a single organization could hope to effectively represent them equally.

-Jet Piston
Gard 3*

you make it sound as if this is something unique to paganism alone, there are 100's of different variations of hinduism, and quite a few different variations of christianity, and even several different variations of buddhism, this isnt anything new. "without this spiraling into a discussion on the differences and similarities between different faiths" , in this modern era without a system to govern the practices and faith they will die, this is a simple fact that "if paganism doesnt follow" will die out and go back underground.
this isnt so much a issue for me, as ive stated twice before i couldnt care one way or another, but what i do find ironic and laughable is many that proclaim themselves to be pagan also complain about not having equal rights as other religions, without pagan practitioners activley creating and participating within a governing body we have no rights to defend as we are not seen as a religious body within society.
so next time you get smacked in the mouth for wearing your pentagram outside of your shirt, or next time you get called a satanist, or next time you get kicked out of your apartment because of having a pagan sticker on your car be sure to point that finger at yourself insted of them, because you only have your own ignorance in stubborn independence to blame.
im perfectly fine with arguing this point further, but lets take this to another thread, or to pm.

[Ben Gruagach]

you make it sound as if this is something unique to paganism alone, there are 100's of different variations of hinduism, and quite a few different variations of christianity, and even several different variations of buddhism, this isnt anything new. "without this spiraling into a discussion on the differences and similarities between different faiths" , in this modern era without a system to govern the practices and faith they will die, this is a simple fact that "if paganism doesnt follow" will die out and go back underground.
If a central governing authority is required for a diverse group of religions to survive, then why have Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity survived? None of those groups have a single central authority.

The individual sects within those religions do have their own central authorities, but that is not the same thing as having one authority for all Christians, or one for all Hindus. Those just don't exist. And within Paganism different denominations or sects do have their own central authorities yet we don't have one for all Wiccans, let alone all Pagans.


this isnt so much a issue for me, as ive stated twice before i couldnt care one way or another, but what i do find ironic and laughable is many that proclaim themselves to be pagan also complain about not having equal rights as other religions, without pagan practitioners activley creating and participating within a governing body we have no rights to defend as we are not seen as a religious body within society.
so next time you get smacked in the mouth for wearing your pentagram outside of your shirt, or next time you get called a satanist, or next time you get kicked out of your apartment because of having a pagan sticker on your car be sure to point that finger at yourself insted of them, because you only have your own ignorance in stubborn independence to blame.
im perfectly fine with arguing this point further, but lets take this to another thread, or to pm.

Having groups to deal with discrimination and legal issues has little or nothing to do with having a central authority in place for all Wiccans or all Pagans. We already have a number of advocacy groups such as the Lady Liberty League in the USA. And then there are groups like the Reclaiming tradition which has social activism and advocacy for Pagan and alternative faiths as one of their central tenets.

[RainInanna]

As far as "central governing body" I have one experience with one group who tried that - a local Pagan group who decided to change the fact that we don't get recognized Pagan holidays. The leader of said group, of course, really meant to say Wiccan holidays. And when non-Wiccans pointed out that the sabbats weren't their holidays to begin with, they were in effect told to shut up and support it anyway, because after all their desire to celebrate their own holidays wasn't as important as getting public support for Pagan (read: Wiccan) holidays by providing a united front.

So yeah, no.

[jetpiston]

you make it sound as if this is something unique to paganism alone...
I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing Wicca.


"without this spiraling into a discussion on the differences and similarities between different faiths" , in this modern era without a system to govern the practices and faith they will die, this is a simple fact that "if paganism doesnt follow" will die out and go back underground.I think you're wrong. One of the biggest reasons modern neopagan faiths have thrived is because people can tailor them to their own needs. Even the most traditional faiths, like Gardnerian Wica, who most people think of as being inflexible and dogmatic, are in reality much too flexible and diverse to accommodate a central governing authority.


this isnt so much a issue for me, as ive stated twice before i couldnt care one way or another, but what i do find ironic and laughable is many that proclaim themselves to be pagan also complain about not having equal rights as other religions, without pagan practitioners activley creating and participating within a governing body we have no rights to defend as we are not seen as a religious body within society.In the US it is the right of the individual to practice their religion as they see fit, no matter if there are one or a million members of that religion. Religious bodies are not supposed to have anything at all to do with someones civil rights. As Ben points out, there are already a number of advocacy groups, yet none of them have any authority whatsoever over the groups to whom they offer their services.


so next time you get smacked in the mouth for wearing your pentagram outside of your shirt, or next time you get called a satanist, or next time you get kicked out of your apartment because of having a pagan sticker on your car be sure to point that finger at yourself insted of them, because you only have your own ignorance in stubborn independence to blame.That's ridiculous. See above and Ben's comments re: advocacy groups. Meanwhile, it's been a very long time since I met someone stupid enough to try smacking me in the mouth.

-Jet Piston
3* Gard