Does the Divine have good/evil sides?

[WandererInGray]

Champagne and I started this dicussion in another thread.
:)

Here's a quick recount of our conversation.....


Champagne: But the Nature (God/dess has both sides: good and evil) and therefore the balance has to be kept.

Wanderer: Actually the Divine does not have both sides....good and evil are a HUMAN concept. But that's another discussion entirely.

Champagne: Divine (Nature in my concept) creates and destroys. But, you are right, that's for another discussion.



*smiles* So here's my take on it.

Yes the divine creates and destroys...but that in my opinion doesn't mean good/evil. Western thought has pushed this idea of things having to be one or the other and that they can't possibly be both at the same time.

I see the Divine not as a separation of good/evil or even having both at the same time.
They are beyond the human concepts of good and evil.

What does everyone else think?

[Flar's Freyja]

I agree with Wanderer that Divine is beyond the human concept of good and evil. Divine creates and Divine destroys but not for human reasons of reward and punishment. I have been through many difficult and painful experiences but each has brought me to a higher level of spiritual understanding and growth that impacts me and everyone else in my life.

[Earthcup]

*tries to picture Shiva with an angel on one shoulder and demon on the other, both whispering busily*

Create! Destroy! Create! Destroy!:D

Good and evil are human concepts IMHO. The Gods are beyond them. Creation isn't always good and Destruction isn't always bad. For instance cancer is too much life and bombs bring too much destruction.

[champagne]

just like your "personal" icon "says" : "There is black and white in everything". So, in that way I consider Nature (as my primary Deity) to have "black" and "white" sides.

But, I must admit: you are right...there are many interpretations of "black" and "white" or "evil" and "good" ( and to everyone: please, this refers just to strikt philosophy, not to real colors). But no matter the interpretations, everything has both sides...

....and we all are driven by Deity.....

Thank you for starting this thread:)
It's very interesting and I would like to hear people's opinions on this one.
BB.

[Armitage]

I don't believe They have good and evil sides, but dark and light...Evil, to me, is a very distant concept from what most people think of as 'evil', i.e. death, destruction, decay, etc.

[Flaire-FireStar]

I think evil are things we create - such as murder and so on. But I don't think the Divine has a good & evil side. It gives and it takes, but what it takes must be taken for the new to continue life.

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

Who is anyone, least of all us, to say what is good and what is evil?

[Mercuria]

"Good" and "Evil" are simply products of the human mind, which likes to divide everything into neat little categories.

Nothing that that exists is good or evil, it simply is; it all depends on your perspective as to how you see it.

Mercuria

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

my point exactly :)

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

(you just put it a lot better than me ;):p)

[MistOfTheSea86]

I believe more in night and day. Neither is worse nor better then the other, they are just different stages in the day. Too much day would cause skin cancer, plants would die from dehydration. Too much night would be vitamin D defianciancy, plants dying. Not to mention wacked out cercadian rythyms.

One can not exist without the other.

[Myst]

Yes, good and evil are human concepts. Do you suppose the lion thinks herself evil when she takes down food? Do you suppose a housecat thinks himself good when he cuddles with you when you're sad?

If a serial murder is shot down you might think it good - but then he would've thought it evil, no? Thus the concept of good and evil is subjective as well. Even in the case of human laws, they are created according to society (a large group of people)'s ideas of good and evil.

There is positive and negative, but even then they are subject to observation and classification into "good" and "bad". For instance a fire that destroys a forest is negative, and yet you might consider it "evil" for the forest animals, and yet "good" for the new plants that wouldn't have been born if it hadn't happened. Another example is the death of a relationship - it is negative, and you might consider it "evil". But then, if the relationship was no longer a positive thing for either party, then it would be "good" that it ended.

Positive and negative exist. They just *are*, and they seek to achieve balance. Divinity exists in archetypes that symbolize positive and negative, but as All divinity is both and neither. It is only human classification that labels them as "good" or "bad".

People make the mistake to think that archetypes symbolize divinity, whereas in my opinion each face, each named deity, is a face of the All. The All is everything - positive and negative, light and dark, man and woman, All. It is only human perception that seeks to divide, classify, and label. Divinity is not as much without positive and negative as it is All positive and negative, transcending labels and human understanding.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Myst
Yes, good and evil are human concepts. Do you suppose the lion thinks herself evil when she takes down food? Do you suppose a housecat thinks himself good when he cuddles with you when you're sad?

If a serial murder is shot down you might think it good - but then he would've thought it evil, no? Thus the concept of good and evil is subjective as well. Even in the case of human laws, they are created according to society (a large group of people)'s ideas of good and evil.

There is positive and negative, but even then they are subject to observation and classification into "good" and "bad". For instance a fire that destroys a forest is negative, and yet you might consider it "evil" for the forest animals, and yet "good" for the new plants that wouldn't have been born if it hadn't happened. Another example is the death of a relationship - it is negative, and you might consider it "evil". But then, if the relationship was no longer a positive thing for either party, then it would be "good" that it ended.

Positive and negative exist. They just *are*, and they seek to achieve balance. Divinity exists in archetypes that symbolize positive and negative, but as All divinity is both and neither. It is only human classification that labels them as "good" or "bad".

People make the mistake to think that archetypes symbolize divinity, whereas in my opinion each face, each named deity, is a face of the All. The All is everything - positive and negative, light and dark, man and woman, All. It is only human perception that seeks to divide, classify, and label. Divinity is not as much without positive and negative as it is All positive and negative, transcending labels and human understanding.

I could not have stated it so poetically yet correctly, right on Myst!

[Mystic Wolf]

I agree with most of what Myst said. I just disagree with her concept of "The All" but we shouldn't get into that because it probably boils down to semantics anyway.

[amberlaine]

From Hamlet:

"There is nothing either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."

I love that line :)

[Mythrel]

everything has balance...even the Gods/Goddesses!!!

[Mithrea]

I was totally with Myst too except for a couple of details.

My Western Philosophy class has been discussing this same issue. The rest of the class totally turned on me when I voiced my .02, but here it is:

I do not believe evil exists at all. There are only actions. In a society, there are actions with negative consequences and actions with positive consequences but outside of societal constructs the actions just are, they are not good or bad.

Evil is something we create to separate ourselves from things that make us uncomfortable. For example, no one wants to admit they they might be capable of rape. So they lable the person who commits it either evil or insane to separate themselves from that person, thier actions, thoughts and feelings. I question the very definition of the word insane too for the same reason. Insane means the way you behave doesn't fit he norm. It's not that there is anything wrong with the way your brain functions, it is just that the results of the way your brain functions goes against the norms of the society.

All of that being said: The Divine is not good or evil. The Divine just exists. The major world religions have developed a bunch of stories and laws that help their believers function in society. They have nothing to do with the Divine. If we think we see good or evil in the Divine, then it is our limited perception projecting our hopes and fears onto the Divine in order to make sense out of it.

[quixote]

Originally posted by Earthcup
*tries to picture Shiva with an angel on one shoulder and demon on the other, both whispering busily*

Create! Destroy! Create! Destroy!:D

Good and evil are human concepts IMHO. The Gods are beyond them. Creation isn't always good and Destruction isn't always bad. For instance cancer is too much life and bombs bring too much destruction.
as far as I understand shiva, the emphasis is on the fact that there cannot be creation without destruction. (things have to be changed, destroyed, in order to make anything new) shiva is always engaged in tthe dance of the universe, making life interesting, to say the least, for allof us. no intent other than change (in my humble oppinion)
BB, quixote

[TwilightWolf]

I believe that there is no true representation of a devine force in any shape or form that the human mind cannot comprehend much less understand the uniquness of each and every entity. There is no true representations of a diety or divine entity, what we find in our dreams or books are nothing more than how one person or even a group of people have been able to perceive that beeing, because of this it is almost impossible to lable something under our understanding of Good and Evil. Yes we speak of certain things as beeing either good or evil and most of society agrees with it. Only in the last 300-400 years wiccans and other pagans where considered evil and burned at the stake or otherwise pesecuted.... and some of that enemity carries over to this modern day world, because of this many pagans find themselves unduely persecuted for crimes they didn't comit... well I get off the subject. I believe there are no true representations of good and evil only how we perceive the world.

Kis'en Far'sere
I am a lone wolf who is trying to find a new pack.

[Earthcup]

Only in the last 300-400 years wiccans and other pagans where considered evil and burned at the stake or otherwise pesecuted....

Any persecution of Wiccans has taken place in the past 50 years and very few Pagans have been burned at the stake. Hanging was the preferred method and most of those persecuted were Christian. Pagans have been fairly close to extinct in the West for the past 400 years, most Pagan persecution took place before then.

[MasterMoon]

I would post a reply, but I dont know what you mean by the "divine" no idea.................

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
I would post a reply, but I dont know what you mean by the "divine" no idea.................

I think they mean that fat transvestite 80's pop club icon, Divine. I think his E! True Hollywood Story is on this week.

[WandererInGray]

Divine means...."fill in your chosen diety name, belief, cheese, here" :rolleyes:

[Ganga]

I voted that Divine is beyond good and evil. My understanding is that good and evil exist only in the material world (here, with us mortals). This is the world of duality where some actions bring good karma and others bad karma. In another realm (spiritual, divine) there is no duality and no karma (as all those who reside there always act on a pure level). Take for example, Krishna (my worshipable Deity). Materially speaking, He was not always a "good boy", but since He is divine (absolute, spiritual, transcendental - whatever term you prefer), His actions were beyond material concept of duality. The result of His actions was always beneficial.

Shiva's dance, although destructive, is also beneficial.

[Kalosi]

Myst's reply is essentially my own belief. The Divine, Almighty Nature - whatever you call it, is inherently neutral. Neutrality always seeks a balance. Good/evil are perspectives of good for me vs. bad for me. We can apply good/evil across so many situations. Your personal filters determine which you class it.

[widukind]

IMO, good and evil are concepts created by humans to label things and to define which actions are acceptable in society and which are not. Since the Gods, Goddesses, and all elements of nature have no society, such concepts are beyond them. Why everyone believes in these concepts is in my opinion the result of the influence of the Judeo-Christian beliefs on our way of thinking.

[Myst]

Originally posted by widukind
Why everyone believes in these concepts is in my opinion the result of the influence of the Judeo-Christian beliefs on our way of thinking.

Except that many people believe in good and evil things regardless of their beliefs. I mean, doesn't matter what belief system you follow, pedophilia and murder are still wrong IMHO. Has nothing to do with Christianity.

[widukind]

Right and wrong are different from good and evil, IMO. Good and evil are forces in the universe, in which I don't believe, while right and wrong are concepts that are defined by one's ethos.

[Myst]

Well that's fine, put the word evil where you see the word 'wrong'.

Same answer tho :)

[Ganga]

Gods and Goddesses don't have society? What? And I always thought that they have highly advanced society with nice families and active social lives... have I been reading too many stories from the bygone times?

[shnen]

I pretty much agree with Myst and Freyja and anyone else along those lines... why say more? ;) :)

[widukind]

Quoth Ganga
Gods and Goddesses don't have society? What? And I always thought that they have highly advanced society with nice families and active social lives... have I been reading too many stories from the bygone times?

That's because I see them as energy beings, neither male nor female and both at the same time. IMO, their family trees and society in myths is a way of looking at how these energies correlate.

[Emerald Oak]

...But I'll still vote. I voted for BOTH. I go by Cunningham's teachings, which say that EVERYTHING is based on the balance of light and dark, including the Divine.

~.^

[Radocs]

I don't believe in good or evil, so I voted that they are beyond the concept of either.

[Gwion]

You can't really compare Creative/Destuctive and Good/Evil. One is a force of nature, the other is human morality. I see Vishnu as Creative and Shiva as Destructive, but not as Good and Evil. We cannot get so caught up in the debate over "relative" evil that we do not act to stop Evil when we see it.

"A thought, which quartered hath
but one part wisdom, and ever
three parts coward."~Hamlet

[Grey]

While I posted that twould be both... and while Im willing to agree that destructive dosent always meen evil. I would have to say that while a god can have either or both they are deffinately no beyond the human concepts of good or evil. The may be beyond our ability to judge at time as their poin of view is differant but some are deffinately evil (set? satan? chaos?) but one mans evil is another mans good misrepresented.

[Ahautenites]

Seth wasn't perceived as evil originally. And even now, he's perceived as Chaotic, but not necessarily evil. :)

[Uriel17]

I voted for the Divine being beyond good and evil.

My conception of this is pretty much like those who voted similarly but I thought I'd explain it my way.

That which is beyond human, and beyond time and space is what I'm imagining is meant by the Divine. That is beyond good and evil.

There is a part of every human that is also beyond good and evil. However, FROM A HUMAN PERSPECTIVE there is good and evil. Which is why some things are evil and some are good for us here in our lives. I believe that the perspective I should work from in choosing my actions is a human perspective. My perspective.

Now I don't have this all fully integrated yet, but I do think the Divine has two sides in that it displays gender. It has qualities that are best described as masculine and feminine.

I've had experiences where I seemed to see from the Divine perspective, seeing life as beyond good and evil. Has anyone else? It tends to scare me a little.

I think its a fine line between holding the Divine to human standards, and saying that there is no good and evil at all.

Tim.

[Tranquility]

I completely agree that Bad and good are human concepts, and that western thought has made these beliefs emerge as there is no inbetween, it is strictly right or wrong. I also believe also that there is good to balance out evil, without evil there cannot be good, and vice versa, it is like the yin yang, without one the whole is not in balance.

[Rainx]

Originally posted by NeferSesemet

Seth wasn't perceived as evil originally. And even now, he's perceived as Chaotic, but not necessarily evil. :)

Getting offtopic but yeah - Seth is more about chaos and conflict, but is often necessary conflict, from my understanding. Even Nun is sometimes considered chaos, but chaos isn't necessarily bad or evil. The real scary chaotic guy is Apep. AFAIK.

[Ahautenites]

**nods** Even scarier still: Ammit. The Devourer of Souls.