Estonian Paganism and Estonia does not belong under Slavic Paganism nor Slavonic.

[alfgar]

Thus, one more time with force methods is tried to subordinate the Estonians to the Russians. But, only common thing for us with Russia is the borderline. The Estonians are always belonged among the Fenno-Ugrics as the Finns, the Laplanders, the Samis and the Hungarian do.
Through times has big Russia tried by means of sword and fire, by means of deceptions and coaxes to get small Estonia into it’s possession. Because it is too important geographical bridgehead to let it to be self-contained.
Culturally it is impossible to find more different nations: Russians are temperamented, social, in big leaders tow running and few working and much vodka loving personages, Estonians are unhurried individualists who potter by themself singly, are sensible and hardworking (that kind famous in whole world).
Yet we got step out from Soviet Union where we were subordinated by many dirty tricks and methods 50 years earlier. Now are tried to lump us together with Russia again. There is no bigger insult for one Estonian.
Estonia is wholly unique cultural territory what has managed to maintain it’s characteristic during about 800 years, despite of this that whole this time are tried to invade Estonia from many directions at the same time. This has been possible thanks to this that this nation has owned by itself mighty knowledge (exactly on field of witchcraft), always used own language and kept high own culture. Already old Mediterrian nations did not attribute hereabout needlessly for Hebrids Golden Apples, Golden Fleece, sirens and what ever more. Already then knew that here are makers together. This list could be proceed on with crusades, from what the fifth one was aimed to Maria Land (Maarjamaa) (Estonia second name by the national phraseology): they were afraid of these knowledge what the Estonians had.
And now are tried to lump us together with Slavs again… :awwman:

[_Banbha_]

I agree with you Alfgar about your history, culture and that Estonian is just not Slavic. It's like calling Irish culture British.

But, isn't it the postings of Pakkaram that put Estonia here falsey? I just noticed his posts for the first time yesterday and was puzzled by what I read. I googled and found that he has cross-posted the same tracts repeatedly on Pagan sites across the board. Odd.

If you believe there to have been a mistake you could PM an Admin to look into it and have someone clarify for others what cultures are included and not included in Slavic Pagan paths? Or you could start a thread in the Site Room forum about it too.

[Pakkaram]

Yes, Estonian Paganism – Tokroda and Estonia does not belong under Slavic Paganism nor Slavonic. By the way, at the beginning, crusaders feared to break into Estonia because by their words everything here stood on witchcraft. Estonia was named by crusaders and outer vikings and many other as Land of Witches (By the way, Estonia islands Saaremaa and Hiiumaa were Estonian Viking lands). One territory is called Pagan Land here in Estonia still nowadays too.

[Pakkaram]

I agree with you Alfgar about your history, culture and that Estonian is just not Slavic. It's like calling Irish culture British.

But, isn't it the postings of Pakkaram that put Estonia here falsey? I just noticed his posts for the first time yesterday and was puzzled by what I read. I googled and found that he has cross-posted the same tracts repeatedly on Pagan sites across the board. Odd.

If you believe there to have been a mistake you could PM an Admin to look into it and have someone clarify for others what cultures are included and not included in Slavic Pagan paths? Or you could start a thread in the Site Room forum about it too.
Still I think it is very good that alfgar posted here in public. The mistake, classification and nameing Estonian Paganism - Tokroda as Slavic paganism shows that people have got wrong information and now all can read different information, not only admins.
In addition it helps to correct getting right information about Estonia, in case I have wrote postings that put Estonia here falsey.
I cross-posted the same tracts repeatedly on Pagan sites because i want to share information about Estonian Paganism - Tokroda generally. I agree that one mistake i made was that i didn't introduced Estonia itself enough specificly nor there nor here.

[Agaliha]

I have a simple soultion: Rename the sub-forum "Slavic and Baltic Paganism".
From what I understand Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and surrounding areas are Baltic.
It's not fair to have a sub-forum for Baltic paths and not Slavic and I don't think there's a demand for two seperate forums. Joining them is the next best thing.

[Kaylara]

That's a great idea! I'll do that!

[Agaliha]

That's a great idea! I'll do that!

:) Yay.

I'm sure some people might still have a problem :2G: but from what I know Estonia is Baltic so it fits. And just because Slavic and Baltic are in the same forum doesn't mean anyone is saying they're the same exact thing. We know they have different beliefs, history, language and culture...but they are in very close geography with each other and I'm sure there is some overlap. I just don't think two seperate forums would ever fly, the demand isn't that great...so this will have to do. :)

[Kaylara]

Thus, one more time with force methods is tried to subordinate the Estonians to the Russians. But, only common thing for us with Russia is the borderline. The Estonians are always belonged among the Fenno-Ugrics as the Finns, the Laplanders, the Samis and the Hungarian do.


Listen, it's not meant as an insult to you. Sharing a boarder with Russia means that at least part of your culture and religion will be similar to the Russian, thus at least making it Slavic influenced. Being part Hungarian myself, I find it no threat or insult to me personally to be called slavic, and until you posted, I had not met an Eastern European who took offense at the term. So I am sorry if I insulted you, and while I changed the name of the forum, I will not remove the partial slavic name from this forum. Honestly we have too few people coming in here to discuss Tokrada by itself and by making it Slavic and Baltic it will justify it's being a forum.

[Pakkaram]

From what I understand Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and surrounding areas are Baltic.
I have to correct You. Yes, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia are Baltic. But no other countries are Baltic. Only these three are.

[Agaliha]

I have to correct You. Yes, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia are Baltic. But no other countries are Baltic. Only these three are.

I know that. I was implying that because these Baltic countries boarder with other countries, there might be some cultural blending. Countries are political boundaries and people don't always fit into their cookie-cutter mold.
For example Mexico and the US. There is a lot of Mexican culture in the SW states, even though there is a border there. Same with Canada and part of the US. France and Spain share culture and aspects as well.

This forum is for Baltic and Slavic paganism and paths. Both. Why linger on the political crap?

[Wolf O Volos]

This forum is for Baltic and Slavic paganism and paths. Both. Why linger on the political crap?



Ahhhhh... the age old religion vs regional politics debate...

Seriously, it is all semantics, and people choosing to find offense in being supposedly lumped into a group that they do not agree with. Fine. Estonian and Slavic arent the same. And for the most part, there are some very interesting differences in the evolution of faith as far as SOUTHERN faiths that blend interestingly with persian ideals, as well as the northwestern faiths that have borrowed some from the faiths and cultures of the norse. I am sure if you could find enough solid information about it, there would be crossover from the mongols and the chinese as well...

It is called *reality* here, to be honest. No faith is completely "stand alone" by the very nature of faith itself. Faith relies heavilly upon personal interpretation, and the way it has been presented to you by smeone else who has interpreted it for themselves, in thier own way. I see Volos. You see Weles. Someone else sees it as Veles. Shall we all duel it out with swords and say that the winner is correct? How silly is THAT concept??? But the truth, is that history is written by the victors, and you, I, and even the most knowledgable researcher in this field, can not actually go back, to a time before the political crap got involved, and actually see for ourselves how this all happened, and where the roots of these faiths and beliefs came into being. So, until that time, that you can build a time machine, go back, and get us SOLID unblemished information, untouched by politics, borders, and bigotry, there is NO point in having a go at someone just because they have made a decision to group regional beliefs, even very DIFFERENT regional beliefs, into one forum.

That would be like the argument I hear among Christians all the time. Southern Baptists hollering about how catholics ARENT christian. erm... they both worship Christ as a saviour. One says he is the SON of God, another says he IS God... but at the end of the day, BOTH believe in Christ, and are therefor catagorized as Christian. Its a label. It sorts things in a manner people can understand, and put to good use. May not be agreeable to all parties involved, but it certainly makes it a lot easier.

So agree that you are seperate from one catagory, and let it go. Even seperate, just by the very nature of the region these "Political Boundaries" lie in, they could all be very easilly put in the same place. You call it a "tomatoe", I'll call it a "to-mah-to", and it is STILL a big red lump sitting on the table while we argue about how to catagorize it.

Understandable, or am I going to get a long winded speech about national pride being more important than discovering the true roots of the earliest faiths in the region?

[Agaliha]

Ahhhhh... the age old religion vs regional politics debate...
Understandable, or am I going to get a long winded speech about national pride being more important than discovering the true roots of the earliest faiths in the region?

Well thanks for adding to my comment, that was basically my view about the matter. I know Baltic and Slavic paths aren't interchangeable, but no one can deny the history, proximity and culture they share. Some paths are pretty distinct from each other, but there is a common theme with them all and many aspects that are the same.

A country is just a political border, it doesn't stop exchange of culture. And in the past the counties we know today weren't even created yet, I believe the Baltic and Slavic states were all part of one empire before and they passed though various rulers. People mingle and excange beliefs and ideas, such as religion. Baba Yaga is found in Poland, in Ukraine, in Russia and other places. Forms of Moist Mother Earth (Mati-Syra-Zemlya-- Russian spelling) are found though out the region, Slavic and Baltic. To say that the Baltic states have no Slavic influence when it comes to the ancient beliefs is silly. Just as silly as saying Mexico and the US don't share commonalities in culture, religion and whatever else on the border states, even though there's a political boundary it doesn's stop it. It's there.

[Voidflower]

Recent genetic study showd that Estonians and Western Russians are similar as are Finnish - They all have common ancestry but different cultures. Estonia and Finland share similarities in language.
Differences in culture and language have come about because of geographical separation.
This geographical separation has helped to preserve Estonias unique culture. Incidentally it created isolation and technological ''limitations'' that contributed to underdog position later in the history.