Was asked about my religous beliefs Today

[Wiccawitch812]

I was listening to this woman today. Explain to our instructer that She feels that god has a greater plan for her. And different religous beliefs she had. Alright i left that go. I was thinking that maybe she felt that she needed help. So after she was done talking with the instructer. She turned to me and asked what i believed. She asked me if i was going to heaven. I turned to her and said. I hadn't thought about that too much. Then she asked if i believed in god. I told her I believe in both the God and the Goddess. She then asked if was a wiccan. And i said yes, but wanted to study other things too. Then she asked if i believed i would be going to heaven. I then told her that i believe that everyone will be forgiven after they die. She then said that you can't just believe what you want to. And then she said that you can't practice Magic or practice spells. Then she just lost it. Saying that no you have to except Jesus, That's the only way you will get into heaven. And she just wouldn't let. Finally, i said to myself, I do not nor have to continue this conversation with her anymore. I was thinking what could i have accomplished by comparing both of our religous beliefs. I just started ignoring her. Once she went on that tirade.

[Phoenix Blue]

So this person was a classmate? :rolleyes: What gives with her?

[moonbride]

Sorry this happened to you. :hugz:
I've had the same thing happen but with someone who I thought I was very close to at one time. Same stuff....
"You can't just believe what you want"
"... The only way..."
"You'll be sorry in the end."

I just made it a point from that point on to try and not let things like that bother me if I can help it. There are some very narrow-minded and intolerant people out there and you have to just decide what's best for you and not let them influence you.

Hope things go better than this after today.

[Phoenix Blue]

"You can't just believe what you want"
Funny thing is, isn't that what she was doing? I mean, she was believing what she wanted, if you think about it.

[moonbride]

Funny thing is, isn't that what she was doing? I mean, she was believing what she wanted, if you think about it.

Yeah that's kind of what I wanted to say when it happened to me, too!

"Who the heck twisted your arm?? .... oooh it's a choice! Gotcha!" :yayah:

[Phoenix Blue]

*Grins* For whatever reason, I've had very little difficulty with people who don't like the fact that I'm Pagan. :devil:

[Mainedruid]

My ex wife turned into a born again christian, a hard core born again christian. OK I thought, what ever works for you. As long as people find happiness then I'm cool with what ever.. ya know?

Well one day. These same questions came up... and I was basically told I was going to hell. Then she started gathering up all my "evil" stuff and tossing it out our 3rd story window.

"I wont have this evil in my house!" well.... she IS my ex now... for more reasions then just that. but still.

Just a story to compare stories I guess.

Mike

[forestrangergrrl]

yeeks, fun fun... fortunately i've not run into anyone like that... i might not be so kind if it were me. i have very little patience w/ folks like that. lol!

[Sabriel MoonStar]

I know the feeling. I've had similar issues with my inlaws. I hope thigs get better and she learns to leave you be.:hugz:

[wiccan4life]

You had good answers to her questions though
I usually dont know what to say really

[Mainedruid]

oh she's learned, we havent talked in years. Last time I saw her she wasnt the 5'9" 125lb blond bombshell I knew either, more like a 5'9" bomb... not by my hand either, I dont do hate spells.

I hope I didnt offend any one by poking fun at her misfortune either... and if i did, sorry.

[*~Amora~*]

This person must have felt insecure and threatened by your alterntive belief.

You did the right thing by drawing your boundary and ignornig her. To argue beyond that poing would only encourage her.

[Amelserru_halqu]

These type of people are so much fun to play with, so plan out some funny responses for if it happens again and enjoy.

[Silver and Iron]

I generally politley tell people that religion is a private thing, and mine is none of their business. I don't need to explain myself to anyone. I'm not going to argue with anybody about if it's right or wrong; they won't convince me, and I'm not interested in convincing them.
For those who are truly curious, and not being accusatory/argumentative, I will explain. Of course, I don't advertise what I am, so it rarely comes up.

[~Elise~]

I used to work the overnight shift YEARS ago --there were about 5 of us who worked together after like midnight or so. We had one UBER Christian type that was always in everyone's face that I liked to mess with occasionally. I'd warn the others--I'm bored tonight is all I'd have to say and they'd go sit on the other side of the call center.

I'd calmly use logic to refute his statements... and the madder he got, the more ill-logical he was and the redder his face got. apparently if I die in Oklahoma I'm going straight to He77 according to him, so I told him I'd be sure to die in another state.

I think the other guys use to bet how long it would take before I could make him incoherant. I know--not fair to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person such as he, but it was fun. I could get him sputtering and tripping over his words in less than 15 minutes by the end of the time I worked with him.

Elise

[Grimr]

At work I always get rude implications from the Christian fundamentalists when discussing religion at first but when they find out that I know more about their own religion then they do the conversation becomes cut short. :hahugh:

[Nitefalle]

Nothing like this has ever happened to me before. No one has every tried to prolelytize to me (except my sister, whom I ignore), no JW's have ever come knocking on my door, no one has ever approached me in a bookstore or pagan shop, trying to convert me. I feel left out! Am I not worthy? :hahugh:

[aeroeng]

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't studied the bible in ANY detail AT ALL, but I have a question.

If the only way to go to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ and take him as your savior...then what about ALL the people that died before Jesus lived? What about all the people nowadays that are off in far reaches of the earth that will never hear him? Are they all screwed because of where or when they were born?

If anyone knows the answer please supply it.. Otherwise feel free to ask those questions to the fundies and see what answers they give.

[aeroeng]

I've only been approached by one person while I was at the beach after class one day. He had his mini-bible wrapped in duct tape that he was reading (what seemed to me) random verses to me like suddenly the light would go on and I'd convert. I just wanted to be left alone so I played along for about 5 min, then thanked him for his time and said that I had to go meet some friends further down the beach.

Other than that, the only religious pushing I get is from my former college roommate (and one of my good friends). But he knows better than to seriously push and I have too much respect to really go after his beliefs. So he subtly brings it up now and again (like getting me to read the Left Behind series or mentioning how he sometimes has to remind himself that God has a plan). Actually that series isn't bad from a story standpoint. I just couldn't get past book 3 because it felt like every other line was telling me to become born again.

[Merrilyn]

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't studied the bible in ANY detail AT ALL, but I have a question.

If the only way to go to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ and take him as your savior...then what about ALL the people that died before Jesus lived? What about all the people nowadays that are off in far reaches of the earth that will never hear him? Are they all screwed because of where or when they were born?

If anyone knows the answer please supply it.. Otherwise feel free to ask those questions to the fundies and see what answers they give.
I called a Christian radio forum with this question when I was a teen. The host told me that those people who had never heard of Christ would indeed NOT be saved. He said it was Satan's work and their sinfulness that had corrupted those parts of the world and led those people to be cut off from the rest of us. He wouldn't, or couldn't justify his claim any further or in any more depth, or tell me where in the Bible I could find answers to that question. He did tell me that it was wrong for me to question god's plan, however, and that doing so would be sinful, especially for a young lady.
That was the first time I was ever truly disillusioned about that religion.
ETA: I know it was probably his own floundering opinion, not something most Christians would say. Just wanted to share the experience.

[Zephyrstorm]

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't studied the bible in ANY detail AT ALL, but I have a question.

If the only way to go to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ and take him as your savior...then what about ALL the people that died before Jesus lived? What about all the people nowadays that are off in far reaches of the earth that will never hear him? Are they all screwed because of where or when they were born?

If anyone knows the answer please supply it.. Otherwise feel free to ask those questions to the fundies and see what answers they give.

I'm reminded of a story:
there once was a tribe of Inuits who encountered missionaries for the first time. The missionaries told them of Christ, and when they had finished the story, one of the Inuit elders spoke.
"According to you, all those who hear the message of your Christ and refuse to follow him will burn in your hell forever, correct?"
"Yes," responded the missionary.
"Then why did you tell us about him?" The chief responded.
;)

the answer to your question depends on which group, denomination, etc. Some believe that the individuals who have never had the chance to join the church will have a pass into Heaven. Others believe that all those who have not joined their church will go to eternal torment, irregardless of whether they ever had the choice.

[StephanieAine]

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't studied the bible in ANY detail AT ALL, but I have a question.

If the only way to go to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ and take him as your savior...then what about ALL the people that died before Jesus lived? What about all the people nowadays that are off in far reaches of the earth that will never hear him? Are they all screwed because of where or when they were born?

If anyone knows the answer please supply it.. Otherwise feel free to ask those questions to the fundies and see what answers they give.


Oooh, Ooooh, Oooooh! <raises hand and waves it wildly> Me! Me! Me! Ooooh, pick me, pick me...

<cough>

Sorry... I had a Welcome Back Kotter attack. Hate it when that happens.

Anyway - I think I can help here.

No, the people who died prior to the arrival of Jesus aren't doomed, and the people off in the far reaches of the rainforests aren't doomed.

They'll be viewed basically according to their faith as they understood/understand it to the best of whatever their knowledge is/was in their particular religious tradition according to Scripture (and at the moment, I can't get you the scripture references, I'm having some chemo-related problems and honestly I just don't want to start digging through my concordance and everything. But if you're interested, I can get those references for you shortly.)

The issue is more about the rejection of the Gospel really. The OT people didn't have the option to accept it or reject it, and neither do people who are off in the rainforests.

Another thing to add that is slightly off topic but related (I bring it up because I can't find the thread where someone brought this up recently) ... someone referred to something about the Ten Commandments and other scripture teachings, and they made a comment like, "God [the Biblical God, in other words] has impossible standards" - and they were saying that Christians weren't living up to them anyway and basically couldn't. There's a misunderstanding there, because the Ten Commandments and everything else taught in the Old Testament (including the Jewish Law which Christians, of course, don't follow - but Orthodox Jews continue to follow) are all considered a "schoolmaster" according to New Testament teaching.

Explanation of what Christians believe and why: It was given as a means to show that it's *impossible* to follow all of it to the letter because people make mistakes and aren't perfect. So the intention was to lead people to understand the need for a Savior. So Christians believe that Jesus took on all of the sin Himself so that man would be viewed as being "clean" of sin and imperfection. So instead of being saved by works (being saved by what you do and how 'good' you are, such as by following a huge list of rules), salvation is by grace through faith (the acceptance of the salvation offered by Christ through faith, which was given by the grace of God).

I said all of that very, very clumsily, but I feel crappy today <g>.

[Nitefalle]

I was raised Catholic and I always understood that to be the basic concept, as well, StephanieAine - although good works don't hurt! But, as I understood it, good works are sort of our responsibility to other humans, but are not required to get into Heaven. I always agreed with that sentiment, even though I am not Christian anymore. I believe that, should I die and the whole Christian after-reality is all true, I shall be judged on who I was as a person, even though I reject the scriptures - I think that those that wrote the scriptures did the best they could to interpret what they understood, but they should only be taken as examples and stories of God's word, not literally or historically. Basically, they are only human, but that's the end of it. They are not God, they are not Jesus, and I don't think the Bible should really be treated as the end-all authority that most people treat it as, today.

But that's just my personal take.

[Sun Sprite]

Well, considering most Chrisitans I know, my comment is "I wouldn't want to go to your idea of heaven." Most would be icy cold, not a bit of warmpth, only for men, with women beign forced to work as slaves, and no furry kids. Who would want to be there?

I'd by far rather be somewhere warm, sunny, and with all my cats and dogs.

[Renny]

"You cant just believe what you want" ???

Oh I'm sorry, I thought we all had the freedom of thought.


The things people say sometimes...

[angle kitsune]

I gata say, I love it when people ask about my beliefs and only want to convert me. Makes my day fun.
I used to work the overnight shift YEARS ago --there were about 5 of us who worked together after like midnight or so. We had one UBER Christian type that was always in everyone's face that I liked to mess with occasionally. I'd warn the others--I'm bored tonight is all I'd have to say and they'd go sit on the other side of the call center.

I'd calmly use logic to refute his statements... and the madder he got, the more ill-logical he was and the redder his face got. apparently if I die in Oklahoma I'm going straight to He77 according to him, so I told him I'd be sure to die in another state.

I think the other guys use to bet how long it would take before I could make him incoherant. I know--not fair to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person such as he, but it was fun. I could get him sputtering and tripping over his words in less than 15 minutes by the end of the time I worked with him.


I do that to a guy that works the morning shift...he is also in my japanses class but the seafood guys making the sushi for the day will be beting on how long it takes for me to get him so mad that he cant talk or really do anything...we have no people come in dearin the morning shift even though we are open 24hours and no manager there for that shift...It is so fun..I got him so mad he tried to call me a "d*mned fool" in japanses but rather then saying "you are a~" he said " I am a ~" it was so funny he dident relize what he did for ten mins and the sushi guys had to stop cutting fish and makin sushi,they where laughing so hard...our sushi guys are from Japan and had ben helping us study and knew he should have said that right without any problem.the harder we laughed the madder he got..erg I have a 'debate' on this at school tomarrow...its gana turn into a all out "poo tossing test,winner yells the most" as my history tech calls it...and the princible would have a cow if he know...but anyway. I love arguing with people about it...I love arguing if its for something I care about no matter what it is...it is so much fun.

[Rachel]

Christians who reserve the right to speak for God are not only really freaking annoying, but also fairly blasphemous to their own faith. God will consider who has led a righteous life and what is a sin at the end, not you. God has the final judgment.

[Harmony Aurore]

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't studied the bible in ANY detail AT ALL, but I have a question.

If the only way to go to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ and take him as your savior...then what about ALL the people that died before Jesus lived? What about all the people nowadays that are off in far reaches of the earth that will never hear him? Are they all screwed because of where or when they were born?

If anyone knows the answer please supply it.. Otherwise feel free to ask those questions to the fundies and see what answers they give.

This is what I was taught when I was a little catholic school girl...

You know how Jesus Died, and then only after three days did he go to heaven? Well, apparently, during those three days, he went down and joined the dead, where he stole the keys to Paradise. Before Jesus died, People weren't allowed to go to heaven and God didn't want them to go to hell, so he created a place called paradise where all the souls that were good according to Jewish law went. Anyways, when Jesus died, he took the keys and released all the souls from Paradise so that they could go to heaven.

As for people who can't hear the message...
I was taught that it was up to God's discretion. It depends if they have a Christian heart. which basically means that they act like Jesus would, whether they know of him or not... that they are very good people.
Children are usually also exempt from going to hell because they are innocent souls. That's what a catholic priest told me, atleast. Hardcore Christians will have different beliefs though

[StephanieAine]

Well, considering most Chrisitans I know, my comment is "I wouldn't want to go to your idea of heaven." Most would be icy cold, not a bit of warmpth, only for men, with women beign forced to work as slaves, and no furry kids. Who would want to be there?

I'd by far rather be somewhere warm, sunny, and with all my cats and dogs.


Yikes, that would suck.

The way the Bible explains it, the Biblical Heaven will basically be perfect... I mean, it says that people will have no sadness (because of a phrase about their 'tears being wiped away' - so whatever would make someone sad in earthly life won't apply anymore, because such unhappiness would cease to exist); people will have perfect, healthy, healed bodies (sounds pretty good to this chemo patient right now - but not yet; I'd rather wait until a ripe old age please thank you <g>); that kind of thing. And then there's the concept of the New Jerusalem... meaning the teaching about Heaven being on earth at a certain point, the re-creation of Creation basically, except not screwed up by environmental damage, nasty attitudes, hate, prejudice, and so forth. The teachings about that are definitely compelling to me. I like the idea of a healed world, and the opportunity to live in a society where people are cooperative and committed to love and generosity and so forth. (As I read it - my impression is that assuming things go as they appear to be taught, then Heaven will offer the same sorts of educational opportunities and social opportunities except perhaps better... plus a society that values spirituality and worship in a joyous way first and foremost. It sounds amazing to me. And the idea of having access to Jesus in a physical/person-to-Person sense is mind boggling. Man, the questions I'd have to ask.)



Christians who reserve the right to speak for God are not only really freaking annoying, but also fairly blasphemous to their own faith. God will consider who has led a righteous life and what is a sin at the end, not you. God has the final judgment.

I feel the same way. But with a lot of people - especially the ultra-fundamentalists - I think they figure that since they have a Holy Book that explains God's teachings, that gives them the right to tell people the way things will go. But the Bible never says anything of the sort. It talks about judgment, but in the context of different groupings of people. It talks about how to live life on earth in a way that would be pleasing, and various things that are 'against the rules' so to speak... and one of those things is judging others and telling them that they won't go to Heaven or whatever. But people seem to forget that part. Personally, I think the only okay thing to do would be to say "this is what the teachings are according to <whatever Bible reference>" and leave it up to the individual to use their own mind to understand what it's saying.

Sometimes I wonder if the problem is something as simple as people who have attitude problems in general (people who tend toward emotional abusiveness for example) - if maybe they have such a superiority complex that they misread the scriptures about salvation and evangelism because they see themselves as judge and jury.

For instance, one person might ask a Christian about how the cross is connected to the salvation teaching. The Christian explains it, and indicates that the idea is that man is sinful by nature - *including* Christians - except the difference is being forgiven. An emotionally abusive person may be asked the same thing, except they start babbling about how *you* <pointing at the person asking the question, or screaming with a picket sign> are sinful (as if the Christian *isn't* - which is not what the scriptures teach).

Then they'd go on to focus on how sinful the other person is, and that they're going to hell because they aren't Christian, and so forth. The whole thing becomes something about "You are (whatever), you sinner! (Presenting a situation of the Christian being perfect and as if they're superior to the unbelieving person) And you'll go to Hell because (whatever insult here) so you'd better repent (as if the Christian is so perfect that they now can go around telling others that they'd better repent because the Christian knows their destination)."

See all the finger pointing? The point I'm making is that it's not about Christianity or Christian teachings, it's about ATTITUDE PROBLEMS. I can tell someone the gospel message without ever taking a superiority stance - first of all because I'm not superior - and second of all, because *I don't know* what will happen at the time of Judgment. All I know is my relationship with God and what I know of Him through scripture. And one of the big things I know from scripture and from my relationship with Him is that He sees into people's hearts and He sees the *motives* of a person. And he takes these things into consideration. He has even changed His mind about certain things simply for the sake of *one person* who touched His heart according to Scripture. So if He has that kind of heart, I would think He wouldn't want to see things like people dooming others to Hell.

(And to prove my point - this was written by a *Christian* - who obviously, being a Christian, had accepted the offer of salvation. From these words, it sure doesn't look like this person saw himself as sinless and able to judge others' eternal destiny like a minigod:
1 Timothy 1: 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

So from that, I see that those people who are running all over America with picket signs aren't even CLOSE when it comes to displaying scriptural attutides (those screaming, sarcastic, hateful people from that little church somewhere in the midwest... gads, I can't remember their group's name; I just remember that everyone in the church is supposedly basically all related to one another.)

They don't know who will be in Hell and who won't! They don't even know who's Christian and who isn't. I just don't get it. It makes me wonder what they must have been through in their lives or what sort of hellishness they went through as children to be able to muster up that kind of attitude towards other human beings.

But, like others with the inclination to announce who is "right with God" and who isn't - they focus on their own human prejudices and somehow they think this gives them the right to classify people according to where *they* think people will go. There's a very clear direction in the Bible not to do that, because we'll be judged in the same way we judge others.

The really sad thing is that when those things happen, there's no *love* being shown. At all. And that's reflecting very badly on God, on the church as a whole, and other Christians who do worry about people being mistreated or being shunned. That aspect makes me angry because I would think they (those picketing people) would *have* to be aware that they're doing that.


I was raised Catholic and I always understood that to be the basic concept, as well, StephanieAine - although good works don't hurt! But, as I understood it, good works are sort of our responsibility to other humans, but are not required to get into Heaven. I always agreed with that sentiment, even though I am not Christian anymore. I believe that, should I die and the whole Christian after-reality is all true, I shall be judged on who I was as a person, even though I reject the scriptures - I think that those that wrote the scriptures did the best they could to interpret what they understood, but they should only be taken as examples and stories of God's word, not literally or historically. Basically, they are only human, but that's the end of it. They are not God, they are not Jesus, and I don't think the Bible should really be treated as the end-all authority that most people treat it as, today.

But that's just my personal take.


Yep, same thing in the Protestant teaching, too... I think it's based on that one verse about how faith without works "is dead." It makes sense; I mean, if you have faith, that's great and everything, but if you're not actively reaching out to other people and expressing the same kind of love and kindness to other people that has been given to you, then where exactly is the faith, and how much does it really mean to you, you know?

That's the thing that bothers me about these rabid Christians that go around screaming obscenities and picketing at the military funerals and so forth... it's unbelievable to me. It's unbelievable to me that there are people who actually think it's okay to harrass people outside of abortion clinics, to insult people who are gay... or to pass judgment on non-Christians (it's like they don't have a clue that it's possible to explain the gospel message without handing down a sentence as if they're God Himself.)

It's as if they're not connecting the dots or something. At the very least, I would think that their *conscience* would bother them enough that they wouldn't be able to treat people that way.

Oh, I don't know. It's probably pointless to even *try* to figure it out.

[Doodlebug]

Geese that would be really annoying. I remember back when I was an Eclectic Wiccan, a fundamentalist neighbor confronted me and basically called me a satan worshipper. Needless to say, I didn't like that. My Grandma ended up confronting her over it later.

[Infinite Grey]

:abored: big deal! I have pagans doing this sort of thing to me more often than Christians.

[bbnflpn]

I'm reminded of a story:
there once was a tribe of Inuits who encountered missionaries for the first time. The missionaries told them of Christ, and when they had finished the story, one of the Inuit elders spoke.
"According to you, all those who hear the message of your Christ and refuse to follow him will burn in your hell forever, correct?"
"Yes," responded the missionary.
"Then why did you tell us about him?" The chief responded.
;)

the answer to your question depends on which group, denomination, etc. Some believe that the individuals who have never had the chance to join the church will have a pass into Heaven. Others believe that all those who have not joined their church will go to eternal torment, irregardless of whether they ever had the choice.

yah i said the same thing, when i was asked to go to bible study and they told me i would have gone to paradise if i had not heard of christ, i was really upset (i was young) and asked why they felt the need to tell me of him now i wont get to go to paradise.

[omar]

The first thing I say to Christians is. I suppose your idea of Heaven is setting playing a HARP for etternity. That would be VERY boring.

[Phoenix Blue]

Let's be careful not to devolve this thread into bashing Christianity, shall we?

[StephanieAine]

<laughing>

Omar, Christians don't believe that they'll be playing the harp for eternity! I mean, I suppose I can understand why someone who isn't ultra-familiar with the scriptural teachings on the subject might **think** that would be what people would do there... but that's not the case.

I mean, the closest thing I can think of that *is* taught is that people in Heaven will spend a lot of time praising God - (and there are said to be a choir of angelic beings who constantly sing praises to God)... but there's more to it than that... there's the whole New Jerusalem thing, the teaching that Heaven will be on earth because the earth will be renewed and so forth. I think I mentioned that in my other post.

Anyway, according to those teachings, people will be living a much happier life because of the earth's renewal, the perfecting of bodies (people being given new and healthy bodies at that time), and the lack of evil in Heavenly society.

I suppose people **could** spend all their time playing the harp if they wanted to do that, but I think more about being able to speak with Jesus face to face, or if He's in high demand for face time (I imagine there would be a lot of people wanting one-on-one time), I would think that there would be opportunities to maybe be in an audience and hear Him teach on various subjects - similar to the things I read about in the New Testament. That would be amazing.

I guess what I'm saying is that the scriptures give an idea of what life in Heaven/The New Jerusalem is all about, and so Christians basically just have to think about how they think they would want to involve themselves in that kind of heavenly society and community.
It's not like there's some sort of rule about how people will have to spend their time - all we really know is that the inhabitants will want to be doing a lot of praising, and that they won't be sad, unhealthy, stressed, or have other problems in that setting.

[morningstar2651]

Funny thing is, isn't that what she was doing? I mean, she was believing what she wanted, if you think about it.
She wants to believe she and those who believe as she does will go to heaven.

What if the one true god is Squiknor, insane god of the squirrels, and his cult was destroyed a couple millenia ago...so now we're all doomed to eternal punishment for not sacrificing acorns to the squirrely god? You can't just believe what you want! Squiknor is watching us!

[morningstar2651]

<laughing>

Omar, Christians don't believe that they'll be playing the harp for eternity! I mean, I suppose I can understand why someone who isn't ultra-familiar with the scriptural teachings on the subject might **think** that would be what people would do there... but that's not the case.

I mean, the closest thing I can think of that *is* taught is that people in Heaven will spend a lot of time praising God - (and there are said to be a choir of angelic beings who constantly sing praises to God)... but there's more to it than that... there's the whole New Jerusalem thing, the teaching that Heaven will be on earth because the earth will be renewed and so forth. I think I mentioned that in my other post.

Anyway, according to those teachings, people will be living a much happier life because of the earth's renewal, the perfecting of bodies (people being given new and healthy bodies at that time), and the lack of evil in Heavenly society.

I suppose people **could** spend all their time playing the harp if they wanted to do that, but I think more about being able to speak with Jesus face to face, or if He's in high demand for face time (I imagine there would be a lot of people wanting one-on-one time), I would think that there would be opportunities to maybe be in an audience and hear Him teach on various subjects - similar to the things I read about in the New Testament. That would be amazing.

I guess what I'm saying is that the scriptures give an idea of what life in Heaven/The New Jerusalem is all about, and so Christians basically just have to think about how they think they would want to involve themselves in that kind of heavenly society and community.
It's not like there's some sort of rule about how people will have to spend their time - all we really know is that the inhabitants will want to be doing a lot of praising, and that they won't be sad, unhealthy, stressed, or have other problems in that setting.
I, for one, have read the Bible and understand what it says about "heaven." It isn't what most imagine it to be. It certainly isn't my cup of tea.

I really wish that more Christians would study their religion in more depth as individuals, rather than expecting their church to do their research for them. This was one of Kierkegaard's great complaints about the church, and I agree with him. The church takes away responsibility from the individual. It discourages the individual from "working out their salvation with fear and trembling." I do what I can to ensure that Christians understand what they believe. I refer them to the writings of various church fathers, as well as other useful references, so they may do the research theirself.

[David19]

I, for one, have read the Bible and understand what it says about "heaven." It isn't what most imagine it to be. It certainly isn't my cup of tea.

I really wish that more Christians would study their religion in more depth as individuals, rather than expecting their church to do their research for them. This was one of Kierkegaard's great complaints about the church, and I agree with him. The church takes away responsibility from the individual. It discourages the individual from "working out their salvation with fear and trembling." I do what I can to ensure that Christians understand what they believe. I refer them to the writings of various church fathers, as well as other useful references, so they may do the research theirself.

You can hardly blame Christians for that, many people do it, think of how many Wiccans believe in the '3 fold law', without realizing, that it wasn't even part of the Gardner's Wicca, and even one of the founders, Doreen Valiente has said in an interview she, and Gardner, didn't believe in the '3 fold law' (they did believe in karma, though, but not the Western version, the actual Hindu and Buddhist version of it).

And, heaven might not be that great a place, considering, from what i've learnt, YHWH, is most likely one (or several?) of the Sumerian gods, and in Sumerian belief, heaven is for the gods, not humans, they go to the underworld (which, at least the Sumerian one, isn't a 'bad' place, either).

[morningstar2651]

You can hardly blame Christians for that, many people do it, think of how many Wiccans believe in the '3 fold law', without realizing, that it wasn't even part of the Gardner's Wicca, and even one of the founders, Doreen Valiente has said in an interview she, and Gardner, didn't believe in the '3 fold law' (they did believe in karma, though, but not the Western version, the actual Hindu and Buddhist version of it).

And, heaven might not be that great a place, considering, from what i've learnt, YHWH, is most likely one (or several?) of the Sumerian gods, and in Sumerian belief, heaven is for the gods, not humans, they go to the underworld (which, at least the Sumerian one, isn't a 'bad' place, either).I can't blame the individuals or the church for this.

It is the nature of thought. Our mind forms a pattern based off of experiences, and our experiences reinforce those patterns. We don't want to perceive things that are contrary to those reinforced patterns.

[StephanieAine]

I, for one, have read the Bible and understand what it says about "heaven." It isn't what most imagine it to be. It certainly isn't my cup of tea.

I really wish that more Christians would study their religion in more depth as individuals, rather than expecting their church to do their research for them. This was one of Kierkegaard's great complaints about the church, and I agree with him. The church takes away responsibility from the individual. It discourages the individual from "working out their salvation with fear and trembling." I do what I can to ensure that Christians understand what they believe. I refer them to the writings of various church fathers, as well as other useful references, so they may do the research theirself.


Actually, I don't expect the church to do my research for me; I do my own research very thoroughly. What I said was on target with scripture, and wasn't based on something I was spoon-fed or told to believe.

But I respect your belief according to your understanding.

[omar]

Well, StephanieAine- I grew up going to the United Methidist, Church of the Bretheren( modern Menonite) & down south I went to the Trinity Methadist. I studyed the Bible till I was 24yrs. old & could quote it. I was I fundimentalist. I new as much then as most of the preaches. I even went to the Anderson Bible colege in Anderson ,Indiana for a short while. Before I sat down & read it cover to cover & found too many controdictions that was not being told by the churches. Then I studyed history of the mid east & found major contodictins. According to the history of the church,the resurection of Jesus was never taught till 320AD.From early Chirstian- Hebrew records.My aunt was 80yrs. old when she died in 1998 & she still believed that she was going to Heaven to play a HARP for eternity. I bet 60% of todays Christians still believe this.

[ladyraven]

I always find it interesting how many religions say that if you don't beleive exactly what they say, then you're going to hell. Seems to me we all are, and if heaven is filled with the type of people who tell me I'm going to hell, I'd rather be there anyways. I would ask anyone who states that you are going to hell if the remember the bible verse that states those who condemn will be condemned. I also remember reading some where in the bible that "true" christians can heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons and drink poison and not be harmed, so start asking how many dead they raised, how often the test poisons and so on.

Sorry, I just like to be a smart ass:) I think Christians need to remember that the whole point of being christian is following that teachings of Christ, which are to love everyone, be charitable and not to judge or force religion. Those seeking will come to you if that which you have is what they are looking for.

[StephanieAine]

Well, StephanieAine- I grew up going to the United Methidist, Church of the Bretheren( modern Menonite) & down south I went to the Trinity Methadist. I studyed the Bible till I was 24yrs. old & could quote it. I was I fundimentalist. I new as much then as most of the preaches. I even went to the Anderson Bible colege in Anderson ,Indiana for a short while. Before I sat down & read it cover to cover & found too many controdictions that was not being told by the churches. Then I studyed history of the mid east & found major contodictins. According to the history of the church,the resurection of Jesus was never taught till 320AD.From early Chirstian- Hebrew records.My aunt was 80yrs. old when she died in 1998 & she still believed that she was going to Heaven to play a HARP for eternity. I bet 60% of todays Christians still believe this.


Well, my grandmother is very elderly now, too, and she also has beliefs that don't match up with scripture; she never really understood the Bible or church preaching. A lot of people don't. Fortunately, the basics of the faith are the essential ones to know and understand, and people don't have to become theologians to be Christian.

As I said, I respect your right to believe as you want to believe; you aren't Christian, and I don't expect that we will agree on theological matters.

[morningstar2651]

Actually, I don't expect the church to do my research for me; I do my own research very thoroughly. What I said was on target with scripture, and wasn't based on something I was spoon-fed or told to believe.

But I respect your belief according to your understanding.
Excellent. ^_^