The pentacle...a couple of questions...

[Fiamma]

1. So a common interpretation of the pentacle is that it's five points represent five elements: earth, air, fire and water which combine to form spirit.

How is it that 4 elements combine into another element? It seems to me that this makes no sense by definition.

2. If the pentacle is a representation of multiple elements, why is it used to symbolize earth?

[Lunacie]

I don't know where you've gotten this information. The way I've generally understood it is that the fifth element - spirit - draws all the other elements together and creates life. I've never heard that the pentacle is supposed to symbolize earth.

[Theres]

I don't know where you've gotten this information. The way I've generally understood it is that the fifth element - spirit - draws all the other elements together and creates life. I've never heard that the pentacle is supposed to symbolize earth.
the pentacle does symbolise Earth in the tarot, although that may just be artistic license (it is disc after all).
the symbol i usually think of as Earth is the quadripartite circle (ie; Malkuth).
also the Earth (as planet, not symbol) is a combination of all the elements.

however i've never heard of the four elements "combining" to form spirit... spirit just is, as the fifth element.

but the pentacle is not my symbol, so take that as you will.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Pentacle==coin, money, material things==Earth. That's a Tarot symbolism, sure. It's less about the Pentagram engraved on it as the metal it's engraved upon, IMO.

[Agaliha]

Traditionally four of the five points of the pentagram has been attributed to the four sacred elements: Earth, Air, Fire and Water, with the fifth point (uppermost) representing Spirit:
Earth: Is represented by the lower left hand point of the star, and is symbolic of Stability and Physical Endurance.
Fire: Is represented by the lower right hand point of the star, and is symbolic of Courage and Daring.
Water: Is represented by the upper right hand point of the star, and is symbolic of Emotions and Intuition.
Air: Is represented by the upper left hand point of the star, and is symbolic of Intelligence and the Arts.
Spirit: Is represented by the topmost point of the star, and is symbolic of Deity the Divine, and the All that Is. The Circle around the star represents sacred space, in which the spirit (the fifth element and top-most point of the star) controls the four earthly elements. The four elements are also associated with the cardinal points of the compass i.e. Earth is to North, Air is to East, Fire is to South and Water is to West, and it is to these directions that the pentagram is drawn to invoke or banish their requisite energies.
From: HERE (http://www.controverscial.com/Pentagram%20-%20Pentacle.htm)

I used to wear the Pentacle. Not anymore though.



The way I've generally understood it is that the fifth element - spirit - draws all the other elements together and creates life.

That was my understanding as well. Spirit also just is, as Theres said.

The pentacle is linked to earth as seen in correspondences and Tarot.

[PoisonIvy]

The pentacle can also stand for the five elements.......water,wood,fire,earth and metal.

[Agaliha]

The pentacle can also stand for the five elements.......water,wood,fire,earth and metal.

True, the Eastern elements found in China (and Japan).
Wikipedia: Five elements (Chinese philosophy) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_(Chinese_philosophy))
Five elements (Japanese) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_%28Japanese%29)

They make a pentacle:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4964/350pxinteractionsoffivetf0.png


Not sure if that interpretation is common in Paganism though.

[Xentor]

Yup. From China and Japan, these two are the most common elemental systems.

I was taught the system with spirit, though we called it "emptiness": the one state of mind in which all others can be used, without getting stuck in any.

We used the elemental system as a behavioural guideline in our martial arts class. People's behaviour can be classified as stemming from the element of earth, water, wind, fire, spirit. Once you recognise it, you know how to react to it.

In the past 2 decades I learnt that this system was used in some magical traditions as well, and that it applied to social behaviour too.

[Greyharp]

I've always thought of the pentacle as being a microcosm - the circle around the pentagram representing the universe, with the five points indicating the four physical elements plus the fifth element of spirit - or in other words, the Divine energy that permeates all. I've certainly never heard of the four physical elements being added together to make the fifth.

As for the Pentacle on an altar representing earth, I've never read otherwise. It should be pointed out that traditionally, the Pentacle had more than just a pentagram incribed on it, there were usually other symbols too. That being the case, it's not the pentagram that is symbolising earth, but the wax/metal/wooden disk itself. The big clue here has already been mentioned, the symbolism of the Tarot and it's influence on early Wicca. I guess a study of the Tarot would shed some light on the issue.

Doreen Valiente in Witchcraft for Tomorrow says


"...witches use these elemental weapons or implements: the wand, the knife, the cup and the disk or pentacle...They are called elemental weapons because they are attributed to the four elements of life...the disk or pentacle for earth."

Patricia Crowther in Lid Off the Cauldron says


"The element at the North point of the Circle is Earth, and naturally equates with the Pentacle or Stone."

and finally Margot Adler in Drawing Down the Moon says


"Different covens have different symbologies, but often...the pentacle - a round, inscribed disk of wax or metal - (represents) earth"

Hope this helps :)

[mystic_zoe]

they way ive seen it is: four of the points represented: earth, air, fire and water. the top point represented the sprirt - i thought the spirit is the individual or you or something like that. i always thought, from a wiccan point of view, that the circle represented the wheel of the year.
the pentacle represented earth. all of the four elements are needed to sustain life, therefore it could also be seen as a representation of life as well.

just my take on it.
xx

[Lunacie]

Interesting replies. I don't associate Wicca and the Tarot, but I can see where they have some of the same symbology. I was never taught that the pentacle on the altar represents the element of Earth - I generally use either a bowl of salt or a rock of some kind to represent Earth.

[Fiamma]

I can't remember where I first read about earth, air, fire and water combining to form spirit, but I've seen it a number of places. I can try to hunt down references. I'm not wiccan, and the pentacle doesn't mean that to me so it's not a huge deal.

[Lunacie]

Well, if you saw it on the 'net, all it takes is one person to post some misinformation and then a bunch of other people copy that to their websites (generally without giving credit to anyone), and the misinformation spreads like a virus. If you saw in a book by a reputable author, I'd be interested in reading that book for myself.

As far as I've always been taught... in order to create life you need earth, air, fire, water and spirit.

[ravenhecate999]

another interpretation is that the pentacle represents the aspects of the Goddess and God.
Goddess: Mother, Maiden, and Crone
God: Dark and Light

[mystic_zoe]

another interpretation is that the pentacle represents the aspects of the Goddess and God.
Goddess: Mother, Maiden, and Crone
God: Dark and Light

ive never heard of that interpretation before...correct me if im wrong, do you mean that each aspect belongs to a point on the pentacle?

xx

[Agaliha]

ive never heard of that interpretation before...correct me if im wrong, do you mean that each aspect belongs to a point on the pentacle?
xx

I've never heard of that interpretation either, but seeing as how there are five aspects listed it can be assumed that each belong on the five points. I don't know what order though.

[MankyCat]

From what I've seen, the pentacle suit of the tarot was originally called "coins". They had different types of designs, some with geometric shapes, and some that mimics the faces on coins that were not uncommon through the ages. The use of pentacles or placing pentagrams on these disks were not really used (not very common, should I say) until the mid to late 1800's. The Rider-Waite deck (along with a few other more modern decks) furthered the use of pentacles as the coin suit.

Coins are material... material wealth is considered an earthly desire or aspiration... Coins are a symbol of earth.

Others have commented very well on the element and Wiccan use of the pentacle, so I'll leave it at this.

Just my $0.02 coins. :hahugh:

[Fiamma]

ive never heard of that interpretation before...correct me if im wrong, do you mean that each aspect belongs to a point on the pentacle?

xx


the grapgic at the top of ths page is an illustrationof just that:

http://www.pathcom.com/~newmoon/pen.htm

(note...I haven't looked at the text, just referring to the picture)

if you google "elemental pentacle" there are quite a few more results, the three or four that I looked at that talked about the arrangement of the points all talked gave the same elemental arrangement. I didn't check the sources to see if they're all coming from the same reference..but that is what I've seen in many places since I first started reading about such things about 8 years ago.

[MankyCat]

the grapgic at the top of ths page is an illustrationof just that:

http://www.pathcom.com/~newmoon/pen.htm

(note...I haven't looked at the text, just referring to the picture)

if you google "elemental pentacle" there are quite a few more results, the three or four that I looked at that talked about the arrangement of the points all talked gave the same elemental arrangement. I didn't check the sources to see if they're all coming from the same reference..but that is what I've seen in many places since I first started reading about such things about 8 years ago.


I think she was quoting the person who said it represented different aspects of the God and Goddess. :-)

[Ben Gruagach]

Agaliha gave links to Japanese and Chinese explanations of the elements from wikipedia -- people might want to also check out the classical elements entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element) and also the pentagram entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram) at wikipedia for more interesting info and leads to more info.

It's interesting to note that the Pythagoreans put the four classical elements (earth, air, fire, water) on the pentacle points with "idea" as the fifth. The word they used for the fifth element was probably closer to "inspiration" (as in a Divine idea) than just a regular idea.

[Fiamma]

I think she was quoting the person who said it represented different aspects of the God and Goddess. :-)


who said it repersented different aspects of which god and goddess? :hmmmmm:

[MankyCat]

who said it repersented different aspects of which god and goddess? :hmmmmm:


Uhm... ravenhecate999 did. And then others were curious about where that was heard. I know I'm interested because I think it's an interesting take if you believe that the Goddess has only three main aspects.

:boing:

[Fiamma]

Uhm... ravenhecate999 did. And then others were curious about where that was heard. I know I'm interested because I think it's an interesting take if you believe that the Goddess has only three main aspects.

:boing:


five points...three aspects...I guess I missed something.

Then again, I don't believe in one god and or goddess with three aspects. I believe in many individual gods and goddesses

[Greyharp]

five points...three aspects...I guess I missed something.

Then again, I don't believe in one god and or goddess with three aspects. I believe in many individual gods and goddesses


It's a Wiccan thing :)

As for the three aspects, three for the Goddess (Maiden, Mother and Crone) and the remaining two for the God (God of Light, Lord of the Underworld or Darkness). It's not dogma, just some people's take on the pentagram, but of course you could apply any group of five things to it.

[Lunacie]

And over the years the pentacle has indeed represented many different things, including the five wounds of Christ.

[Agaliha]

five points...three aspects...I guess I missed something. Then again, I don't believe in one god and or goddess with three aspects. I believe in many individual gods and goddesses

See these posts :)
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Note: Some goddesses do have triple aspects, though. Or at least fit into a trinity. The Morrigan for example.


another interpretation is that the pentacle represents the aspects of the Goddess and God.
Goddess: Mother, Maiden, and Crone
God: Dark and Light


ive never heard of that interpretation before...correct me if im wrong, do you mean that each aspect belongs to a point on the pentacle? xx


I've never heard of that interpretation either, but seeing as how there are five aspects listed it can be assumed that each belong on the five points. I don't know what order though.

[Morgandria]

Note: Some goddesses do have triple aspects, though. Or at least fit into a trinity. The Morrigan for example.

Irish triple goddesses, however, don't fit into the Maiden/Mother/Crone box. They are more commonly sisters, rather than aspects of the modern MMC archetype.

[Agaliha]

Irish triple goddesses, however, don't fit into the Maiden/Mother/Crone box. They are more commonly sisters, rather than aspects of the modern MMC archetype.

I know :)
I was just saying that they are goddess trinities out there.
Not that The Morrigan fits in the MMC aspect.

[Fiamma]

See these posts :)
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Note: Some goddesses do have triple aspects, though. Or at least fit into a trinity. The Morrigan for example.


sorry, I meant I didn't get how the five points related to the three aspects.

[MankyCat]

sorry, I meant I didn't get how the five points related to the three aspects.

I never said it was only the three aspects of the goddess. I was saying that the aspects of the God and Goddess is an interesting take. But I used to believe that the goddess had four aspects, not three... so that take on the pentacle/pentagram would not have fit me well. (Even less so now.)

As was displayed (and quoted later by Agaliha), the person who brought up this point did list the aspects that were in question... which totalled five. That would be in line with the five pointed star.

People have been sharing info with you in regards to your question. I would suggest reading the info more thoroughly. If you had read when the original point of the aspects of the God and Goddess (equalling 5 total) was mentioned, I don't think I would be clarifying.

[noxtwice]

edited because i was way behind on the timeline in this thread... sorry