Christianity did not steal from Mithrasism

[David19]

I thought i'd post this in the History forum, as i found this site very interesting.

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/index.htm, this is the main page on Mithrasism, and here's a page (http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/whatmithisnt.htm)that says that Christianity did not steal from Mithrasism and in fact, was the other way around, in some regards.

I really liked it, as i like learning about Mithrasism and it's also refreshing to see a Pagan site (the guy is Pagan), which actually quotes scholars, is a scholar, and doesn't go into the typical 'Christianity stole this, Christianity stole that' of other Pagan sites.

His main page, http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, is also cool too, it has a lot of information on PIE religions, deities, rituals, cosmology, some info on Wicca, and a lot of other stuff.

If you're a Christian, you should use the site next time you find someone saying Christianity took 'everything' from Mithrasism.

Anyway, what do you think of it?.

[Arion]

here's a page (http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/whatmithisnt.htm)that says that Christianity did not steal from Mithrasism


December 25th was the birthday of the sun, then; to be specific, of Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun." The complication here is over the question of whether Mithras and Sol Invictus are the same deity.
Okay, so Christianity stole from Sol Invictus worship then :lol:

Seriously, I know it's annoying for Pagans to rant on and on about how Christianity took from ancient traditional Pagan celebrations, but it is true for the most part. Maybe "stole" isn't the right word, I think "absorbed" is more appropriate, but there is many aspects of Christianity that come from various Pagan practices. It would happen naturally with any religion being replced by another, most likely it wasn't some big consiracy to steal from the Pagans and convert them all, which is how many authors advance it.

[Shanti]

Mithraism was a mystery cult in the Roman empire.
Heck I never even heard of Mithraism before this thread, or I just never noticed anything related to it.

Learn something new everyday!

[_Banbha_]

That is one of my top ten all-time favorite sites. :)

I've never heard a scholar or person, Pagan or otherwise, say that ''Christianity took everything Mithrasism."


Maybe "stole" isn't the right word, I think "absorbed" is more appropriate, but there is many aspects of Christianity that come from various Pagan practices. It would happen naturally with any religion being replced by another, most likely it wasn't some big consiracy to steal from the Pagans and convert them all, which is how many authors advance it.

This is more how I view it. I think it refects what have read about the issue. I don't generally seek out "Pagan" authors (including Hutton) for reading up on such topics. I have probably seen some more Pagan sites both some slanted commentary; but nothing like what you mention. I perfer straight up unbiased towards either side analysis. :)

[Toby Stimpson]

Mithraism wasn't a Pagan religion though...if anything it was a branch of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism. I think that it would be rather natural for them to absorb ideas because, o what I have read....many times Mithraic and Christian army and militia men were in direct contact with each other all the time, regardless of their specific religious cult affiliation...and perhaps as an act of conformity to stave off persecution some Christian leaders started to take ideas from the very similar Mithra image. Interesting thread, I enjoyed the read :)

Namaste

Tobias

[David19]

Mithraism wasn't a Pagan religion though...if anything it was a branch of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism. I think that it would be rather natural for them to absorb ideas because, o what I have read....many times Mithraic and Christian army and militia men were in direct contact with each other all the time, regardless of their specific religious cult affiliation...and perhaps as an act of conformity to stave off persecution some Christian leaders started to take ideas from the very similar Mithra image. Interesting thread, I enjoyed the read :)

Namaste

Tobias

Although interestingly, it seems the Zoroastrian Mithras and the Roman Mithras were 2 different deities.

I think you might be right about it being natural for both Christians and Mithras initiates to have absorbed ideas from each other, as they would have known about each other, and it happens in every religion (e.g. Wicca has some Christian elements, Jewish elements (Ceremonial magic), etc).

[dragoncrone]

Why do you feel it is necesssary to 'defend' Xtianity to such a degree?

[raven grimassi]

There are some problems with the reasoning within the article. The author states:

"When did it appear? Here is a hard truth: the earliest Mithraic artifact is dated to about 90 CE (Clauss, p. 21). Let me repeat that date: 90 CE. This date doesn't require much comment. It shows something that may seem radical: any influence between Mithraism and Christianity would have had to have flowed from Christianity to Mithraism, rather than the other way round. Mithraism is not, in fact, a pre-Christian religion."

The reference here is to an artifact discovered 90 years after the alleged birth of Jesus. The author's conclusion is that this means Mithraism drew from Christianity. However, Christianity did not take root with sufficient followers that early on to constitute a mainstream presence nor a powerful enough sect from which others would naturally borrow. Yes, there were Christian communities in ancient Italy by 57 ce, but Christianity did not prevail in the Roman empire until the mid 4th century (Mithraism is noted in Rome during the 2nd century). So I think using the artifact as an indicator of who borrowed from who does not hold up (in and of itself).

Now, that being said, I think some of the other arguments in the article are compelling, but in essence I personally think we are looking at pre-existing commonalities rooted in ancient concepts, which influenced both the cult of Mithras and the cult of Jesus.

[PeatBog]

Some would argue that because the Gospels are thought to have been mostly before 100 and that since very little is known of Roman Mithraism until after 100 that it is implausible to say that Christianity borrowed its doctrines from Mithraism; some have even suggested that Mithraism may have, in fact, borrowed elements from Christianity.[citation needed] But others suggest that it is more likely that similarities in practise go back to a common background in the Mediterranean world in the 1st century BC to 1st century AD. [6].

A better determinant of borrowing, is to compare core doctrines between Christianity and Mithraism. The adoption of imagery or icons or festivals is fairly peripheral (such as the adoption by christendom of winter solstice or Saturnalia festivals as Christmas) but seldom reflects basic religious tenets. A further example of this is the various gnostic cults (such as the Marcionites and Valentinians) which adopted the personage of Jesus or the concept of a Savior, yet did not adopt the underlying doctrinal elements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism

[omar]

I read some where(Discover mag.?), that in Isreale they say that the early Christian church there never taught the reserection of Jesus. This teaching did not appear in Roman writtings till 320 AD?

[Agaliha]

Just posting some info.

I thought this was interesting:

Mitra (Proto-Indo-Iranian, nominative Mitras) was an important Indo-Iranian divinity, thought to be a guardian of oaths and agreements. Following the prehistoric cultural split of Indian and Iranian cultures, names descended from *Mitra were used for the following divine or holy figures:

Mitra (Sanskrit Mitrá-, Mitráḥ), a deity (asura) who appears frequently in the ancient Indian text of the Rigveda.
Mithra (Avestan Miθra-, Miθrō), a yazata mentioned in the Zoroastrian sacred scripture of the Avesta, whose modern Persian equivalent is Mehr.
Mithras, the principal deity of the religion of Mithraism, was derived from a form of Mithra that had been reinterpreted and very considerably changed in Greco-Roman culture.Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra).

It seems that the Hindu/Vedic, Zoroastrian and Roman are somehow connected.

Also, Mithra and Jesus similarities: (these aren't all of them)



Mithra was a traveling teacher.
Mithra had 12 disciples.
He performed Miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
In three days he was resurrected.
He was called the "Good Shepard".
He was considered ""the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
His sacred day was Sunday.
His resurrection was celebrated on Easter.
He had a Last Supper when he returned to his father. Also called the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper.
He was believed not to have died, but to have ascended to heaven where it was believed he would return at the end of time where he would judge the living and the dead.
He granted immortal life of his followers through baptism.
Followers of Mithra were lead by a 'papa', the Greek word for 'father' and what 'pope' is derived from,who ruled on Vatican Hill in Rome.
Followers of Mithra celebrated "sacramenta", a consecrated bread and wine, using chanting, incense,bells, candles and holy water just as is found in the Catholic Mass.

Also, Jesus linked by similarities though other Gods (Horus, Krishna, Dionysus) (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm) articles there.

And:



For over three hundred years the rulers of the Roman Empire worshipped the god Mithras. Known throughout Europe and Asia by the names Mithra, Mitra, Meitros, Mihr, Mehr, and Meher, the veneration of this god began some 4000 years ago in Persia, where it was soon imbedded with Babylonian doctrines. The faith spread east through India to China, and reached west throughout the entire length of the Roman frontier; from Scotland to the Sahara Desert, and from Spain to the Black Sea. Sites of Mithraic worship have been found in Britain, Italy, Romania, Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Persia, Armenia, Syria, Israel, and North Africa.
In Rome, more than a hundred inscriptions dedicated to Mithras have been found, in addition to 75 sculpture fragments, and a series of Mithraic temples situated in all parts of the city.
One of the largest Mithraic temples built in Italy now lies under the present site of the Church of St. Clemente, near the Colosseum in Rome. The widespread popularity and appeal of Mithraism as the final and most refined form of pre-Christian paganism was discussed by the Greek historian Herodotus, the Greek biographer Plutarch, the neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry, the Gnostic heretic Origen, and St. Jerome the church Father. Mithraism was quite often noted by many historians for its many astonishing similarities to Christianity.
Article Tidbit:
<SNIP>
However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single fore-runner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Gentile Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world. The Lord's supper was not invented by Paul, but was borrowed by him from Mithraism, the mystery religion that existed long before Christianity and was Christianity's chief competitor up until the time of Constantine. Paul's "home-town" was Tarsus, from where Mithraism began. In Mithraism, the central figure is the mythical Mithras, who died for the sins of mankind and was resurrected.
FOR MORE (http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion/deities/mithra.htm)


Also the book: Amazon.com: The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God?: Books: Timothy Freke,Peter Gandy (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geurHeBnZFiXkBZGFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2M21yY3JyBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANGODQ3X zcy/SIG=12q3qfg09/EXP=1165449310/**http%3a//www.amazon.com/Jesus-Mysteries-Was-Original-Pagan/dp/0609807986) sort of talks about this. I own the book. It's interesting and more how I view Jesus than anything else.

Also the Jesus as Myth theory: Jesus as myth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth) Mentions Mithras among other things.


There seems to be decent arguements for both sides of the Christianity-Mithas debate.

I don't think Christianty took everything from Mithraism. There are many similarities that are worth looking into and considering though. I don't understand what's so bad about another faith drawing inspiration from another, Christianity wasn't started in a vacuum you know. Mixing, blending and sharing are bound to happen.

As for the site David mentioned, I do enjoy that guys PIE section. Very informative. I'll have to read the Mithra Article though :2G: