Goddess as Saint, and Italian Pagan Survivals

[*Rasenna*]

Been helping with a couple of research projects, and ran across some things that make for good discussion. Most of this is about paganism surviving within various Catholic beliefs and practices. Here is something of interest about St. Mary:

“In talking of the religious habits of the Calabrese, he acknowledged that they possessed peculiar ideas respecting the mode of worshipping their Madonnas. If they do not obtain their wishes, they enclose the shrine of the Madonna as if in prison, and upbraid her in no measured language, in hopes that she may be shamed out of her conduct, and be induced to grant their prayers. It is in these remote parts of Italy that the customs of their Pagan ancestors have been preserved in their greatest purity” (from - The Nooks and By-ways of Italy: Wanderings in Search of its ancient Remains and Modern Superstitions, by Craufurd Tait Ramage, 1868, page 84)

Here’s another:

“The south of Italy is a land of superstition. In the churches, which are regarded as the dwellings of those miracle-workers, the Madonna and Saints, traditions and practices of pure paganism are upheld. This Magna Graecia, where Isis, the giver of health to the sick, was once popularly worshipped, is now pervaded by the cult of the Madonna as Healer” (from - Incubation: Or, the Cure of Disease in Pagan Temples and Christian Churches. By Mary Agnes Hamilton. Simpkin, Marshall, Hamilton, Kent & Co. 1906, pages 182)


“Other votive offerings commonly seen in the churches of Italy represent the part of the body that has been healed. In the church of La Gracia at Palermo, the altar of the Madonna is hung round with numerous offerings. Among the most prominent are legs, feet, arms, modeled in pink wax flecked with several red spots, to indicate wounds…it is unnecessary to dwell upon the survival of the pagan custom of ex-voto gifts as seen in these offerings. Identical offerings have been found in many pagan temples. Representations of parts of the body and plaits of hair were among he most common gifts to the deity” (from - Incubation: Or, the Cure of Disease in Pagan Temples and Christian Churches. By Mary Agnes Hamilton. Simpkin, Marshall, Hamilton, Kent & Co. 1906, pages 182-183)

And there’s this:

“The country round Bassano is agricultural; and the contadini, here as everywhere are deeply superstitious. Every festsa of the Church is religiously observed…side by side with the obvious respect for the Catholic Calendar, there exists the remnant of an older pagan worship, quite recognisable under its modern Roman guise. In many trees, and especially at the corners of the roads, little wooden shrines, with the image of a saint or the Madonna, are nailed among the branches; and every festa fresh flowers are placed in a tumbler before the shrine, and ribbons are twined about it. The custom is a survival of tree-worship, but is has lost all its ominous significance of human sacrifice; there is nothing now but what is sweet and innocent in these tree shrines; the ribbons are no longer sacrificial fillets; and the odour of flowers has taken the place of blood” (from - In and Around Venice, by Horation Forbes Brown. Scriber, 1905, page 224)

Also this:

“In portions of Italy, and especially in Tuscany, the Church finds itself powerless to prevail against the surviving influence or what is called La vecchia religione; in other words, the survival of paganism. The entire country of Tuscany is seamed with the beliefs in witchcrafts, divinations and enchantments. There the reputed witch is feared and respected but not shunned, and is at no special pains to hide her power over the destinies of others, or her capacity to undo the evil caused by witches whose interests are in conflict with her own. Under names more or less changed, the old gods of Olympus are still the recipients of homage more sincere than is accorded the God that has been superimposed upon them rather than has replaced them. Old forms of prayer or imprecation, not seldom lyrical, are preserved and transmitted, the crone rarely failing to find on girl among her descendants ot connections to whom she may confide her magic secrets. Of the entire mass of belief in the Tuscan highlands, nineteen-twentieths are probably pagan. Investigations are not easily made in this country, but a fair amount of paganism will even here be found” (from - Gentleman’s Magazine - Volume CCLXXIV January to June 1893 Chatto & Windus, Piccadilly)

Here’s something on witchcraft in Italy:

“Witchcraft was localized in two chief centers in the mountains of Norcia and the Lombard valleys of the Alps. In the former we find a remnant of antique superstition. The witches of this district, whether male or female, had something of the classical Sibyl in their composition…” (from - Renaissance in Italy, by John Addington Symonds, Henry Holt and Company, 1888, page 347)

“The elder witches keep a school for the younger, and instruct them in the secrets of their craft” (from - Renaissance in Italy, by John Addington Symonds, Henry Holt and Company, 1888, page 350)

Another:

“The witches succeeded to the dethroned goddesses, and the manner in which it took place was this. When the populace went over to the new faith, there were a few who hung back, and for a long time clung to the ancient belief, and in secret continued to practice their rites. From this stat of things, the demonology of the ancients mingled itself imperceptibly with Christianity, and from an union of actuality and imagination arose the representation of the nocturnal flight of witches, in which all the barbarities of ancient paganism were perpetrated” (from - The History of Magic, by Joseph Ennemoser, Mary Botham Howitt, William Howitt. H.G. Bohn, 1854, page 195 – 196)


And then this:

“The police are said to have made some attempt to suppress witchcraft, though it may be believed without success. The old woman, called Janara by the Neapolitans, may be consulted at the Chiesa del Santi Apostoli every Monday morning, as regularly as you can in the summer season have your fortune told on Blackheath on Sunday” (from - The Nooks and By-ways of Italy: Wanderings in Search of its ancient Remains and Modern Superstitions, by Craufurd Tait Ramage, 1868)

[plumedsnake]

It just shows that nothing ever really changes. In societies around the world traditions can be divided into the exoteric and the esoteric. The exoteric (ie outer forms) are subject to change, but deep down the inner esoterica always remains the same. It's sad that so many people waste time and energy fighting and dying over the outer forms that the same old same old assumes.

This reminds me of the I Ching hexagram 48, The Well. The structure of the town may change but the well remains the same. The survival of the town depends on access to the well.

[raven grimassi]

In societies around the world traditions can be divided into the exoteric and the esoteric. The exoteric (ie outer forms) are subject to change, but deep down the inner esoterica always remains the same.

Yes, exactly. This is the value of initiatory systems that preserve and convey core inner traditions. It is the unfortunate fate of esoteric teachings that they become distorted and thereby transformed once they fall into the hands of the populace. The Fairytale is one good example in which we find old occult beliefs transformed into a children's entertainment.

In Italy we find the Cult of the Saints, which arrogated the old spirits and deities of Italic paganism. We know that in pre-Christian times the cult of the hero existed. The hero was a man of legendary fame, believed to have lived and died. His grave or tomb became a place of veneration, and any relics of the person were believed to possess powers. This pagan concept was transferred to the saints during the Middle Ages. Anthropologist Martin Nilsson writes:

"The similarity of the heroes to the saints of the Catholic Church is striking and has often been pointed out. The power of the saints, like that of the heroes, is bound to their relics, and just as the relics of the saints are transferred from one place to another, so were those of the heroes. Moreover, the oracle of Delphi prescribed that a hero cult should be devoted to a dead man if it appeared that a supernatural power was attached to his relics, and the pope canonizes a saint for similar reasons. The cult of the heroes corresponded to a popular need which was so strong that it continued to exist in Christian garb" - Greek Folk Religion, Universty of Pennsylvania Press, 1940, page 20

What is interesting is that the esoteric traditions retained the memory of the pre-Christian entities, and the exoteric systems came to believe in the outer form of the saints.

[*Rasenna*]

What is interesting is that the esoteric traditions retained the memory of the pre-Christian entities, and the exoteric systems came to believe in the outer form of the saints.

And that's an important point. I think this applies to folk magic practitioners in Italy who learned the common lore and not the inner traditions. It's interesting though that even in folk traditions there is an inner level. The Catholic sorcerers of stregoneria, for example, reportedly pass the power of healing on to another at Xmas eve. As far as I know there is some secrecy to this and what words are spoken, etc. But as you've noted before, Italian witches pass power to one another on the eve of All Soul's Day. Since we're talking about saints, are there some in Italian witchcraft who are connected to the dead/ancestral spirits at this time of the year?

[Teresa]

It's interesting though that even in folk traditions there is an inner level. The Catholic sorcerers of stregoneria, for example, reportedly pass the power of healing on to another at Xmas eve. As far as I know there is some secrecy to this and what words are spoken, etc. But as you've noted before, Italian witches pass power to one another on the eve of All Soul's Day. Since we're talking about saints, are there some in Italian witchcraft who are connected to the dead/ancestral spirits at this time of the year?

Very interesting! it has been of interest to me lately to see what influences came from where during my childhood as related to my diverse heritage. As far as I have been able to trace there were a couple of people who hailed from Naples that married in. If you find such a reference I would love to read up on it.

[raven grimassi]

Since we're talking about saints, are there some in Italian witchcraft who are connected to the dead/ancestral spirits at this time of the year?

Yes, there is St. Quentin who is the gatekeeper to the mysteries that open upon the three days of the dead (November 1-3). Then during the first three days of November we have St. Lucius and St. Marcian.

Related to this general theme there is also St. Agatha (who is sometimes known as the cat saint). She has a chthonic nature and is associated with cemeteries and with spinning (which is also an attribute the Fates). Agatha is also associated with fire, which may ultimately originate from old cremation rites. I will not go into the Christian versions of these saints as this is common lore and is best left to another thread. What I am relating here is the veneer of saints who are masks of the earlier pagan deities and spirits of pre-Christian religion in what is now known as Italy.

[SoulFire]

Yes, there is St. Quentin who is the gatekeeper to the mysteries that open upon the three days of the dead (November 1-3). Then during the first three days of November we have St. Lucius and St. Marcian.

Related to this general theme there is also St. Agatha (who is sometimes known as the cat saint). She has a chthonic nature and is associated with cemeteries and with spinning (which is also an attribute the Fates). Agatha is also associated with fire, which may ultimately originate from old cremation rites. I will not go into the Christian versions of these saints as this is common lore and is best left to another thread. What I am relating here is the veneer of saints who are masks of the earlier pagan deities and spirits of pre-Christian religion in what is now known as Italy.

Thanks for sharing this. My coven has had a fascination with Pagan saints for some time. Victor Anderson used to talk about saints in connection with Feri Witchcraft. The ones we heard him mention were:

San Baptista(n)
San Luci
St. Francis of Assisi
St. Irene
St. Laverna
St. Mary
St. Patrick

(I'm not a fan of the latter, personally.) Finally, though she is not a "saint" per se, the Andersons frequently burned candles to the beloved Virgin of Guadalupe. There are two saints that are never invoked in Feri: St Paul and St Augustine - they hated women and sex, according to Victor.

Inspired by this, our coven went on to brainstorm a continuing list of "Witchcraft saints", including St. Brigid, of course, so beloved by Pagans today, and Saint Simon/Simeon/Maximon, whom Charles Leland calls the "goblin saint". We've also brainstormed some "new" contenders for Witchcraft sainthood.

:tarotwitc
B*B,
SoulFire

[David19]

Thanks for sharing this. My coven has had a fascination with Pagan saints for some time. Victor Anderson used to talk about saints in connection with Feri Witchcraft. The ones we heard him mention were:

San Baptista(n)
San Luci
St. Francis of Assisi
St. Irene
St. Laverna
St. Mary
St. Patrick

(I'm not a fan of the latter, personally.) Finally, though she is not a "saint" per se, the Andersons frequently burned candles to the beloved Virgin of Guadalupe. There are two saints that are never invoked in Feri: St Paul and St Augustine - they hated women and sex, according to Victor.

Inspired by this, our coven went on to brainstorm a continuing list of "Witchcraft saints", including St. Brigid, of course, so beloved by Pagans today, and Saint Simon/Simeon/Maximon, whom Charles Leland calls the "goblin saint". We've also brainstormed some "new" contenders for Witchcraft sainthood.

:tarotwitc
B*B,
SoulFire

Weren't Francis of Assisi, St. Patrick, etc all Christian (as in real historical figures), i don't know too much about Patrick, but Francis of Assisi, i did in school, didn't he found a group of monks, who gave up material possesions or something, and saw the Church as being corrupt (due to caring more about money than their religion e.g. Jesus did preach poverty, etc).

I didn't think they would have been 'pagan' in any sense of the word, but maybe i'm wrong.

[SoulFire]

Perhaps I should have put "Pagan" in quotations. I know Witches who feel that Frances had a "pagan" spirit if you will, from stories about his penchant for nudity. You'll also notice that images of Frances frequently depict him surrounded by animals, so there is a closeness to nature and the natural world in these stories, as well. Brigid is also popular with Witches; we even have a Sabbat, Feb. 2, devoted to her. (However, I would have to agree with you about Patrick; as I posted earlier, I am not a fan of his personally.)

[David19]

Thanks for that, it's just i wasn't sure how they could be Pagan (well i kind of knew Bridget would be as i think she's the same as the Celtic god, Brigid/Bridget (i have no idea how her name is spelt)).

Thanks for telling me.

Maybe Patrick is popular 'cause he was said to get rid of the snakes from Ireland (even though i don't think there were snakes), so maybe he's seen as possessing powerful magics?.

[raven grimassi]

Weren't Francis of Assisi, St. Patrick, etc all Christian (as in real historical figures), i don't know too much about Patrick, but Francis of Assisi, i did in school, didn't he found a group of monks, who gave up material possesions or something, and saw the Church as being corrupt (due to caring more about money than their religion e.g. Jesus did preach poverty, etc).I didn't think they would have been 'pagan' in any sense of the word, but maybe i'm wrong.

I think you are just taking it literally. But what this is actually about is that Pagans & Witches simply adopted the name of a saint that fit the nature and character of the old gods and spirits. They used the name and statuary of the saint as a symbolic representation of who and what they actually venerated. This made it safe to worship because other people thought they were venerating a saint. However, it should also be noted that some saints have no historical foundation, and often they are named after a spirit, deity, or sacred site.

[SoulFire]

Thanks for that, it's just i wasn't sure how they could be Pagan (well i kind of knew Bridget would be as i think she's the same as the Celtic god, Brigid/Bridget (i have no idea how her name is spelt)).

Thanks for telling me.

Maybe Patrick is popular 'cause he was said to get rid of the snakes from Ireland (even though i don't think there were snakes), so maybe he's seen as possessing powerful magics?.

Well, Victor said that Patrick is a spirit who works with serpents. However, I have always heard that the "serpents" Patrick drove out were the Druids and Pagans, so I've always personally viewed him as being anti-Witch (but if anyone has any evidence to the contrary, I would be interested in reviewing it).

See also Raven's reply for more info.

[David19]

Maybe it depends on the Witch, like Victor Anderson may have seen him as a spirit who did magic with snakes, and for others, Patrick is used as a mask or something for a pagan god or spirit, like what Raven said.

[Carla O'Harris]

Weren't Francis of Assisi, St. Patrick, etc all Christian (as in real historical figures), i don't know too much about Patrick, but Francis of Assisi, i did in school, didn't he found a group of monks, who gave up material possesions or something, and saw the Church as being corrupt (due to caring more about money than their religion e.g. Jesus did preach poverty, etc).

I didn't think they would have been 'pagan' in any sense of the word, but maybe i'm wrong.

It's not who the saints were historically, but how they were used functionally, and the legends that were built up about them that are relevant to the issue. The fact that George Washington never cut down a cherry tree doesn't mean that there wasn't a tradition that he did.

Some of the legends around Saint Francis definitely have a "Lord of Animals" feel to them, in some cases fairly explicitly. How that would have been viewed by a devout Christian versus a disguised folk-pagan is up for grabs, but it definitely provides possibilities for the latter.

[SoulFire]

Maybe it depends on the Witch, like Victor Anderson may have seen him as a spirit who did magic with snakes, and for others, Patrick is used as a mask or something for a pagan god or spirit, like what Raven said.

The two explanations are not necessarily mutually exclusive. P.S. IOW, Patrick could be the name or "mask", possibly, for a spirit or Pagan deity who works with serpents.

[Teresa]

Yes, there is St. Quentin who is the gatekeeper to the mysteries that open upon the three days of the dead (November 1-3). Then during the first three days of November we have St. Lucius and St. Marcian.

Related to this general theme there is also St. Agatha (who is sometimes known as the cat saint). She has a chthonic nature and is associated with cemeteries and with spinning (which is also an attribute the Fates). Agatha is also associated with fire, which may ultimately originate from old cremation rites. I will not go into the Christian versions of these saints as this is common lore and is best left to another thread. What I am relating here is the veneer of saints who are masks of the earlier pagan deities and spirits of pre-Christian religion in what is now known as Italy.

Thanks for posting this !

[plumedsnake]

Very interesting! it has been of interest to me lately to see what influences came from where during my childhood as related to my diverse heritage. As far as I have been able to trace there were a couple of people who hailed from Naples that married in. If you find such a reference I would love to read up on it.

On the subject of Influence I just want to say, It seems that influence is only seen as a temporal sequential thing. Ie that every thing that happens is the result of a preceding event which has influenced it. So therefore Christian saints came directly from the pagan gods that preceded them in an unbroken timeline.
It is also worth considering though that influence could also come directly from the spiritual realm. In other words a tradition can be broken (in the timeline) and then start up again due to revelation from the spiritual world. Maybe the christian saints resemble the pagan gods so much because these spirits actually exist and they reveal themselves to people in whatever form is easiest for the people to grasp them. The context matters little whether it be christian or otherwise.
That would be why those goddesses that appear to people near sources of water, In an ancient greek context they would reveal themselves as nymphs, in a christian context they will reveal themselves as virgins, in a santeria context they will reveal themselves as Oshun, Oya, yemanja or any of the numerous river goddesses of this faith etc etc.
It is a very linear contemporary way (I won't say western civilisation way) of looking at things that sees cultures and traditions as coming from a linear timeline and influence being only possible when things come into contact geographically etc. If the spiritual is real then why can't two separate cultures miles apart comes up with the same rituals and gods without ever coming into contact with each other. Why can't separate cultures build pyramids without influencing each other. Isn't this how synchronicity is possible :) :) etc.
There was a thread in Theology and Philosophy that was about the progress of philosophical thought and automatically everyone went into the timeline mode of understanding whereby the greeks developed ideas that the romans developed further and then the baton was passed on to the arabs who passed it back to europe in the renaissance etc etc in a relay of temporally bound influencing. I just don't agree that that is how knowledge is acquired and built upon. I totally believe in revelations.

Just my thoughts.:)

[Xirian]

There was a thread in Theology and Philosophy that was about the progress of philosophical thought and automatically everyone went into the timeline mode of understanding whereby the greeks developed ideas that the romans developed further and then the baton was passed on to the arabs who passed it back to europe in the renaissance etc etc in a relay of temporally bound influencing. I just don't agree that that is how knowledge is acquired and built upon. I totally believe in revelations.

Just my thoughts.:)
I like your post. I too believe in epiphanies or revelations. I think you make some excellent points and linear thinking can sometimes cloud something that may have come about by revelation.

I do believe the timeline mode is very important in some circumstances, but not every circumstance.


If the spiritual is real then why can't two separate cultures miles apart comes up with the same rituals and gods without ever coming into contact with each other. Why can't separate cultures build pyramids without influencing each other. Isn't this how synchronicity is possible :) :) etc.
I really like this portion of your post and it gives me something to think on as I personally believe it is completely possible. I don't feel that all things must be connected by a timeline. I feel that by doing that, one may sometimes be overshadowing the real learning or the aspects that make the most impact on one's spiritual path, if that makes any sense at all.

[raven grimassi]

It is also worth considering though that influence could also come directly from the spiritual realm. In other words a tradition can be broken (in the timeline) and then start up again due to revelation from the spiritual world.

I think it not only possible but likely as well. There is an old occult tradition that the gods went to sleep within their statues, and awaited the time when their followers would stir them back to life with offerings and rituals.


Maybe the christian saints resemble the pagan gods so much because these spirits actually exist and they reveal themselves to people in whatever form is easiest for the people to grasp them.

This fits well with the image of St. Mary appearing in ethnic variations according to the region in which she manifests.


It is a very linear contemporary way (I won't say western civilisation way) of looking at things that sees cultures and traditions as coming from a linear timeline and influence being only possible when things come into contact geographically etc. If the spiritual is real then why can't two separate cultures miles apart comes up with the same rituals and gods without ever coming into contact with each other. Why can't separate cultures build pyramids without influencing each other. Isn't this how synchronicity is possible

There are many possibilities, and it is always wise to consider that things may not be what they appear to be, nor that things may not be a simple as one thinks. Another possibility is the idea of morphogenetic fields. The idea of a morphogenetic field has been popularized by a biologist named Rupert Sheldrake.

The theory is that every organism is surrounded by an interconnected energy field, which transmits "information" in one form or another. Sheldrake suggests that the evolution of a species begins when members in one location are subjected to environmental changes, and members in a still stable environment receive the information that the need to adapt is required. This occurs through a relay of information through the morphogenetic field.

The theory of the morphogenetic field is similar to the basic concept known as the hundredth monkey. The idea here is that once a large number of individuals engage and maintain a certain practice because it is functional and effective, they reach "critical mass" and a new cultural awareness takes place. This new awareness is somehow communicated directly from mind to mind over great distances without any apparent connection, bridge, or known conveyance. Some people find evidence of Jung's concept of the collective unconscious in such phenomena, and have used this observation as evidence that an ideological breakthrough occurs when enough individuals in a population adopt a new idea or behavior.

Sheldrake suggests that societies have social and cultural morphogenetic fields that organize behavior. In essence these fields allow individuals to act as one unit in a commonality of action and expression. One example is how birds fly in formation and all turn and move together as though they were one organism. Sheldrake states that tests have been done on the reaction time to stimulus of individual birds. The tests found that the maximum reaction time of the bird was less than the time required to turn in harmony with the flock. In other words, the formation of birds turned faster than any individual bird in the flock could do on its own.

Sheldrake extends the theory of morphogenetic fields to the "hive mentality" and suggests that these fields allow the individuals of the hive to communicate with one another across distances and through physical barriers. Sheldrake also points to the so-called "mob mentality" in human society when crowd behavior commits acts that few if any of the individuals would do (or condone) on their own. Where Sheldrake's theories connect to witchcraft lies in his ideas regarding ritual as a morphic resonance.

Sheldrake notes that the patterns of ritual acts are the same from one country to another. He sees such rituals as having the effect of evoking memory per their designs. Sheldrake theorizes that rituals create the right conditions for morphic resonance to occur between those performing the ritual at any given moment and those who originally (or previously) performed it. What Sheldrake is suggesting is that rituals reconnect the participants with their ancestors through morphic resonance, and that this is a type of communication and memory recall. If Sheldrake is correct then a case can be made that the rituals, beliefs, and practices of so-called "modern witchcraft" are actually the manifestations of ancestral memory.

[Vinny Mirabella]

This was forwarded to me, and I thought it could go with this thread. It's from a book called Familiar Allusions, by Charles Gardner Wheeler (J.R. Osgood & Co., 1882) and the text says that "Befana is differently represented as a saint, a fairy and the bugbear of naughty children" (different areas maybe?)

[Xirian]

Sheldrake's theory sounds similar to the Hundredth Monkey effect/phenomenon theory, except with people. However, I may be completely off on this one. It just sounded similar.


The "Hundredth Monkey Effect" is the name for a supposed phenomenon in which a particular learned behaviour spread instantaneously from one group of animals, once a critical number was reached, to all related animals in the region or perhaps throughout the world. Largely due to popularisation of this story, the "Hundredth Monkey" phenomenon is now thought by many to occur in human populations with respect to ideas and beliefs in general even though the original story has been discredited (Myers 1985).

Hundredth Monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_Monkey)

[*Rasenna*]

This was forwarded to me, and I thought it could go with this thread. It's from a book called Familiar Allusions, by Charles Gardner Wheeler (J.R. Osgood & Co., 1882) and the text says that "Befana is differently represented as a saint, a fairy and the bugbear of naughty children" (different areas maybe?)

This speaks loudly about how traditions can vary even within the same geographical culture. I imagine that some people will argue that their lore is the correct one (witch versus fairy versus saint), and that those whose lore doesn't match aren't culturally correct. But as the text you posted demonstrates, Befana is portrayed in Italy as either a witch, fairy, or a saint. Gasp - what's this - Italians in Italy with differing lore and traditions!? :hahugh:

[Carla O'Harris]

Sheldrake's theory sounds similar to the Hundredth Monkey effect/phenomenon theory, except with people. However, I may be completely off on this one. It just sounded similar.



Hundredth Monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_Monkey)

Sheldrake's theory has a lot more science behind it, although of course it is only one theory, and many scientists disagree with it. (On that criteria, many scientists disagree with almost any theory you could propose.) It's not pseudo-science, if that's what you're asking.

[Carla O'Harris]

This speaks loudly about how traditions can vary even within the same geographical culture. I imagine that some people will argue that their lore is the correct one (witch versus fairy versus saint), and that those whose lore doesn't match aren't culturally correct. But as the text you posted demonstrates, Befana is portrayed in Italy as either a witch, fairy, or a saint. Gasp - what's this - Italians in Italy with differing lore and traditions!? :hahugh:

That's impossible, Rasenna. It's all one big ITALY, INC. TM, and all the people who are competing with Raven Grimassi own the copyright and patents. You have to understand that they speak for Italy, Inc.!!!

[Xirian]

This speaks loudly about how traditions can vary even within the same geographical culture.
I agree.


I imagine that some people will argue that their lore is the correct one (witch versus fairy versus saint), and that those whose lore doesn't match aren't culturally correct.
But I think this is actually an interesting way to view things. It really shows a connective, almost (dare I say) a familial connection to one's beliefs, that cannot be altered by the introduction of someone else's beliefs or religion. The introduction of new religions seem to meld into their set ways and thinking, without fear of losing what they hold within. I think this is what I like most about what I've learned about the Italian people in regards to many aspects of their culture, the fact that they have faith in their ideals so much so that they don't seem to fear the introduction of something new. They appear to go with the flow and allow themselves to be influenced from outward appearances, but it doesn't appear to be that way from within. Their connections are not broken, but are strong, as is evident by your first post.

[Stephanie Taylor]

I think this is what I like most about what I've learned about the Italian people in regards to many aspects of their culture, the fact that they have faith in their ideals so much so that they don't seem to fear the introduction of something new. They appear to go with the flow and allow themselves to be influenced from outward appearances, but it doesn't appear to be that way from within. Their connections are not broken, but are strong, as is evident by your first post.

This is what Raven Grimassi teaches as well. In his tradition we may add things but we can't remove or change the old ways. These are marked in our book with a symbol to show what's core and foundational. Everyone has a symbol they must use when adding to the core material so that it stands out as new or added. Raven says that a tradition must grow and adapt to its environment just as any living thing must. He says that once something stops growing then it begins to die. It's the law of nature.

[Xirian]

This is what Raven Grimassi teaches as well. In his tradition we may add things but we can't remove or change the old ways. These are marked in our book with a symbol to show what's core and foundational.
Why must this be taught? It should be evident just by doing a bit of research on the people from which your new religion hails.


Everyone has a symbol they must use when adding to the core material so that it stands out as new or added.
Once again, a bit of personal research would tell you that what you are using that isn't new or isn't yours. And common sense would indicate to you what is new or something that you've added. I don't see why this has to be taught at all. It just stands to reason. I don't practice any religion, yet I can still decipher what is old and not mine from what is new and is mine. You make it sound as if it's a good thing that someone has to indicate this to you or that you have to indicate it to someone else.


Raven says that a tradition must grow and adapt to its environment just as any living thing must. He says that once something stops growing then it begins to die. It's the law of nature.
Once again, this stands to reason, every human alive does this. Adapt or die, this isn't some new fangled idea. It is common sense and doesn't really need to be taught. Animals adapt to their enviornment without someone telling them that this is the way it's supposed to be done. They do it their own way, even when they see other animals doing it differently, but their way is best for them.

That's what I was trying to get at. I like the idea of a strong cultural and family sense. Adaptation does not always imply that someone is changing their viewpoints, only that it may appear that way. What we know in their hearts and minds is up for speculation. It would appear that the Italian culture adapt to their enviornment, but I have a sneaking suspicion that their ideals, beliefs, viewpoints have not changed much at all.

[Stephanie Taylor]

It should be evident just by doing a bit of research on the people from which your new religion hails.

It isn't new any more than the Catholic religion is new because of the changes it has made over the last 1000 years.


Once again, a bit of personal research would tell you that what you are using that isn't new or isn't yours. And common sense would indicate to you what is new or something that you've added.

Keeping the record straight is the reason for using our symbols. We want to preserve tradition and maintain what is core and foundational. People who come to our tradition are not interested in purely modern traditions. They like to see the older foundational material. They come to our tradition for roots.


You make it sound as if it's a good thing that someone has to indicate this to you or that you have to indicate it to someone else.

Yes, we feel it's a good thing to keep the record straight and to preserve the old material intact.


It would appear that the Italian culture adapt to their enviornment, but I have a sneaking suspicion that their ideals, beliefs, viewpoints have not changed much at all.

The old witch material that's still being kept alive seems to confirm your opinion.

[Teresa]

I agree.


But I think this is actually an interesting way to view things. It really shows a connective, almost (dare I say) a familial connection to one's beliefs, that cannot be altered by the introduction of someone else's beliefs or religion. The introduction of new religions seem to meld into their set ways and thinking, without fear of losing what they hold within. I think this is what I like most about what I've learned about the Italian people in regards to many aspects of their culture, the fact that they have faith in their ideals so much so that they don't seem to fear the introduction of something new. They appear to go with the flow and allow themselves to be influenced from outward appearances, but it doesn't appear to be that way from within. Their connections are not broken, but are strong, as is evident by your first post.

This is what I am pondering about that happened with my ancestors since I have a diverse heritage but I am learning about other practices and religions and seeing similarities. I am really enjoying reading this thread. I do believe it is possible that it is just coincidence that some things are similar, but exploring is interesting. IMO, Logically since I knew there were Italians who came over that married into the family that perhaps the ways were melded or blended together.

[Xirian]

It isn't new any more than the Catholic religion is new because of the changes it has made over the last 1000 years.



Keeping the record straight is the reason for using our symbols. We want to preserve tradition and maintain what is core and foundational. People who come to our tradition are not interested in purely modern traditions. They like to see the older foundational material. They come to our tradition for roots.

Yes, we feel it's a good thing to keep the record straight and to preserve the old material intact.

The old witch material that's still being kept alive seems to confirm your opinion.
Their roots or someone else's?

The way your comment sounds seems to imply that you are the only one's that are keeping the record straight for these people who can't or won't, or that you are the only resource.

[Stephanie Taylor]

Their roots or someone else's?

The roots of our tradition, naturally.


Their roots or someone else's?

The way your comment sounds seems to imply that you are the only one's that are keeping the record straight for these people who can't or won't, or that you are the only resource.

You seem to have an odd view of what I'm saying. I'm sharing in good faith here, and I certainly don't feel that the tradition I practice is the "be all and end all" of traditions.

We certainly encourage people to do their own research and study, and not to take what we present as gospel, so to speak. We know what we have, and we know it stands strong and secure on its own. Most of our initiates are well educated and well read, which is something we welcome.

[*Rasenna*]

That's impossible, Rasenna. It's all one big ITALY, INC. TM, and all the people who are competing with Raven Grimassi own the copyright and patents. You have to understand that they speak for Italy, Inc.!!!

:rollingla Thanks, I needed that!


It isn't new any more than the Catholic religion is new because of the changes it has made over the last 1000 years.

EXACTLY, and well said! People and traditions are the culmination of their lifelong experiences. This includes not only their past but also their current circumstances.

[Xirian]

This is what I am pondering about that happened with my ancestors since I have a diverse heritage but I am learning about other practices and religions and seeing similarities. I am really enjoying reading this thread. I do believe it is possible that it is just coincidence that some things are similar, but exploring is interesting. IMO, Logically since I knew there were Italians who came over that married into the family that perhaps the ways were melded or blended together.
This is what attracted me to this thread in the first place, the idea that all of these things may be connected or may not be. But what is really of interest to me is the retainment of the core beliefs of a culture even though other religions come in and try to change another's practices, perhaps leading those who aren't looking or paying attention to the idea that these cultures have changed their core belief system or because their symbols appear to be those of another religion that they have lost their own personal ideals.


It isn't new any more than the Catholic religion is new because of the changes it has made over the last 1000 years.
Personally, I don't know enough about the origins of the Catholic religion to refute or agree with your thoughts here. Your religion, stregheria, is a new religion, just as Wicca is a new religion. I do believe that both are rooted in the tennents and beliefs of older ideologies, witchcraft practices and religious views, but that doesn't make either an old religion, it just makes some of the beliefs and practices old. From what I've read, it's a new religion, even if some of the practices may be old.


Second, I point out that I created the system I write about, and that it is modern based upon an older tradition (which I state in the Introduction to Italian Witchcraft and in chapter 12). As anthropologist Sabina Magliocco points out, after studying my published works:

"Grimassi never claims to be reproducing exactly what was practiced by Italian immigrants to North America; he admits Italian-American immigrants...

This system, stregheria, is a modern system based on older traditions. It isn't the old tradition or religion in it's entirety. It is merely based on an old tradtion, but the religion is new or should I say, modern.


We certainly encourage people to do their own research and study, and not to take what we present as gospel, so to speak. We know what we have, and we know it stands strong and secure on its own. Most of our initiates are well educated and well read, which is something we welcome.
Well, I should hope so.


The roots of our tradition, naturally.
The roots of a religious tradition can be much different than the roots of one's culture, which is what I was talking about. I do not believe that all stregheria practioner's personal cultures are based on what the stregheria religion is based on, perhaps I'm wrong though.

But whether I'm wrong or not, the core beliefs and ideals of many of the Italian people still appear to be strong and whether all of these religious habits and practices are actually connected from one culture to the next is of little importance to me at this point in my journey. However, the OP's information is very interesting. It's really the idea that these cultures ideals have survived, perhaps not in the way we would like to see them surviving (hence, the newer religions trying to bring back the old tennents of belief), but that they survive nonetheless. And that is what is important to me at this point in my life. So thanks for the original information *Rasenna*.

[Stephanie Taylor]

This system, stregheria, is a modern system based on older traditions. It isn't the old tradition or religion in it's entirety. It is merely based on an old tradtion, but the religion is new or should I say, modern.

You're confusing the Aridian tradition with Stregheria itself. In Raven's reference to creating a modern tradition based upon an older one, he's talking about the Aridian tradition, not Stregheria as a whole. You can liken this to "Baptist" being a new denomination of Christianity. The appearance of the Baptist denomination in the 17th century doesn't make Christianity itself new. The appearance of the Aridian tradition in the 20th century doesn't make Stregheria new.

I should bring up the fact that you don't know what we, as followers of Stregheria, believe in or practice. Raven doesn't write about his family tradition. He only teaches this to his initiates. We don't practice the Aridian system. Raven merely presented it in his book as a model that modern people might want to adopt or change as needs be.


Personally, I don't know enough about the origins of the Catholic religion to refute or agree with your thoughts here. Your religion, stregheria, is a new religion, just as Wicca is a new religion. I do believe that both are rooted in the tennents and beliefs of older ideologies, witchcraft practices and religious views, but that doesn't make either an old religion, it just makes some of the beliefs and practices old. From what I've read, it's a new religion, even if some of the practices may be old.

Actually Stregheria is quite old. It has a literary and historical documentation going back to ancient Roman times. Over the course of time it has evolved and taken on additional teachings and rituals. But at the core it remains Stregheria, the Old Religion.

My comparison of Stregheria to Catholicism still stands. Catholicism as it was practiced centuries ago is different in many ways than it is practiced today. But the religion is not new, it's almost 1000 years old.


The roots of a religious tradition can be much different than the roots of one's culture, which is what I was talking about. I do not believe that all stregheria practioner's personal cultures are based on what the stregheria religion is based on, perhaps I'm wrong though.

I'm not sure what you mean. There are non-Italians who practice Stregheria but their nationality has no bearing on the religion they've embraced. For example you don't have to be Asian or Indian to be a Buddhist.



It's really the idea that these cultures ideals have survived, perhaps not in the way we would like to see them surviving (hence, the newer religions trying to bring back the old tennents of belief), but that they survive nonetheless.

While it's true that revivalists do exist, as well as reconstructionists, there are also survival traditions as well. Stregheria is one of them.

[Xirian]

You're confusing the Aridian tradition with Stregheria itself. In Raven's reference to creating a modern tradition based upon an older one, he's talking about the Aridian tradition, not Stregheria as a whole. You can liken this to "Baptist" being a new denomination of Christianity. The appearance of the Baptist denomination in the 17th century doesn't make Christianity itself new. The appearance of the Aridian tradition in the 20th century doesn't make Stregheria new.
I'm not confusing anything. And this is not the reason I entered this conversation in the first place, to refute or concede to whether stregheria is new or old or whether the Aradian trad is old or new. I have no interest in the new stergheria religion and it's tennents of belief, nor do I really have interest in the Aradian trad. I added my two cents because I'm interested in the Italian culture as it stands now and the ideals of the people who live in Italy and the beliefs that they hold. I'm also interested in their witchcraft practices.


I should bring up the fact that you don't know what we, as followers of Stregheria, believe in or practice. Raven doesn't write about his family tradition. He only teaches this to his initiates. We don't practice the Aridian system. Raven merely presented it in his book as a model that modern people might want to adopt or change as needs be.
And what I was speaking about really has nothing to do with what you keep bringing up. And I'm curious as to why you continue to proselytize about your personal religious beliefs when that's not what my initial statement was about in the first place. I know all that I need to know about Raven's religion and it really plays no part in my spiritual path, which is what is most important to me. I am interested in the Italian culture, it's people and their beliefs, not yours and Raven's. Why is this difficult for you to understand?


Actually Stregheria is quite old. It has a literary and historical documentation going back to ancient Roman times. Over the course of time it has evolved and taken on additional teachings and rituals. But at the core it remains Stregheria, the Old Religion.
I was going to ask a question here, but I am truly uninterested in whether stregheria is new or old. It really has no influence on my spiritual path one way or the other. And I'm also not interested in continuing a discussion on the beliefs you hold in regards to stregheria. Perhaps others are. I'm interested in the Italian culture, not stregheria.


My comparison of Stregheria to Catholicism still stands. Catholicism as it was practiced centuries ago is different in many ways than it is practiced today. But the religion is not new, it's almost 1000 years old.
I appreciate your efforts in trying to set me straight. Once again, you're completely ignoring, perhaps unintentionally, my point and the reason I've posted here. I'm not interested in stregheria or when it started. I was simply commenting on something you had stated after quoting me, that I, at first, thought related to my original comments on this thread, but I am finding that they dont.


I'm not sure what you mean. There are non-Italians who practice Stregheria but their nationality has no bearing on the religion they've embraced. For example you don't have to be Asian or Indian to be a Buddhist.
Yes, this is true. But what I was initially talking about was the Italian culture and the ideals of the people that live in Italy still being very real and discernable to those that live there. I was not talking about stregheria, you were and I was commenting to that. I was talking about the fact that many who live in Italy, past and present, still hold their core beliefs even though it may appear that they do not to onlookers. I was talking about Italian culture, not religious tradition.


While it's true that revivalists do exist, as well as reconstructionists, there are also survival traditions as well. Stregheria is one of them.
Once again, you're preaching about something that is of no concern to me.

[Stephanie Taylor]

I'm not confusing anything. And this is not the reason I entered this conversation in the first place, to refute or concede to whether stregheria is new or old or whether the Aradian trad is old or new.

Actually, you introduced the comment that in your opinion Stregheria is new. I merely responded. Call that preachy if you like.


I'm interested in the Italian culture as it stands now and the ideals of the people who live in Italy and the beliefs that they hold. I'm also interested in their witchcraft practices.

As am I, which is why I practice Stregheria.

[Xirian]

Actually, you introduced the comment that in your opinion Stregheria is new. I merely responded. Call that preachy if you like.

But I think this is actually an interesting way to view things. It really shows a connective, almost (dare I say) a familial connection to one's beliefs, that cannot be altered by the introduction of someone else's beliefs or religion. The introduction of new religions seem to meld into their set ways and thinking, without fear of losing what they hold within. I think this is what I like most about what I've learned about the Italian people in regards to many aspects of their culture, the fact that they have faith in their ideals so much so that they don't seem to fear the introduction of something new. They appear to go with the flow and allow themselves to be influenced from outward appearances, but it doesn't appear to be that way from within. Their connections are not broken, but are strong, as is evident by your first post.


This is what Raven Grimassi teaches as well. In his tradition we may add things but we can't remove or change the old ways. These are marked in our book with a symbol to show what's core and foundational. Everyone has a symbol they must use when adding to the core material so that it stands out as new or added. Raven says that a tradition must grow and adapt to its environment just as any living thing must. He says that once something stops growing then it begins to die. It's the law of nature.
After that I asked you why this information had to be taught and that I felt with a bit of research and common sense, these things could be inferred without being taught.

Now who was it again that brought up the stregheria tradition or should I have said Raven Grimassi's tradition?

Only after your reply to my questions, did I start talking about stregheria being new, but only after you planted the seed.


As am I, which is why I practice Stregheria.
I'm glad for you.

[*Rasenna*]

And this is not the reason I entered this conversation in the first place

With all due respect, in my personal opinion you're doing what you did in the Aradia thread, which is trying to sabotage an informative thread with attacks on the beliefs of the people posting in it. If you have something constructive to add to the thread, we'd all love to hear it for a change.

[Xirian]

With all due respect, in my personal opinion you're doing what you did in the Aradia thread, which is trying to sabotage an informative thread with attacks on the beliefs of the people posting in it. If you have something constructive to add to the thread, we'd all love to hear it for a change.
First of all, I'm really not convinced that you are trying to respect me, but simply bring up things from another thread that really don't have any place in this one, if we're relying on the original post in this thread. If we're not, then that's fine too. I did not attack Stephanie's beliefs, I said that I have no interest in them, just as I'm pretty sure she's not really interested in my spiritual beliefs, but I could be wrong.

I posted in the Aradia thread well before you entered the conversation at all, and was simply speaking of the information that comes along with speaking about Aradia. A lot of that information coming from Charles Leland and Raven Grimassi and others. I wasn't attacking anyone. I was simply stating that I didn't agree with all of the things stated in Raven Grimassi's books, not about the person. I also said that there were some interesting things in his books as well, especially in regards to witchcraft lore, but you may have missed that whilst trying to refute something that was irrefutable, my personal opinion of Raven's books

At any rate, here I was simply trying to state that:

But I think this is actually an interesting way to view things. It really shows a connective, almost (dare I say) a familial connection to one's beliefs, that cannot be altered by the introduction of someone else's beliefs or religion. The introduction of new religions seem to meld into their set ways and thinking, without fear of losing what they hold within. I think this is what I like most about what I've learned about the Italian people in regards to many aspects of their culture, the fact that they have faith in their ideals so much so that they don't seem to fear the introduction of something new. They appear to go with the flow and allow themselves to be influenced from outward appearances, but it doesn't appear to be that way from within. Their connections are not broken, but are strong, as is evident by your first post.
Which really has nothing to do with anything that Stephanie has brought up to me aside from the fact that Raven teaches these things. My comments were right in line with your first post and the posts of some others here. Whether you agree is all on you and I support your right to have an opinion.

It seems that others:

This is what I am pondering about that happened with my ancestors since I have a diverse heritage but I am learning about other practices and religions and seeing similarities. I am really enjoying reading this thread. I do believe it is possible that it is just coincidence that some things are similar, but exploring is interesting. IMO, Logically since I knew there were Italians who came over that married into the family that perhaps the ways were melded or blended together.
...felt that I had something of interest to say, even if you don't. I really have no interest in the stregheria religion. I have an interest in Italian culture and beliefs, much of the reason why I liked your initial post and wanted to comment on this thread.

Whatever else you infer from what I'm trying to say to Stephanie, which is that I was actually commenting on the idea of core beliefs still being very prevalent in the Italian culture from what I can see, is simply your own inference and opinion, and that's fine by me. :)

[*Rasenna*]

I did not attack Stephanie's beliefs, I said that I have no interest in them

You insisted, and still insist, that her personal beliefs in the antiquity of Stregheria are wrong. That's not displaying a disinterest in her beliefs, now is it!?.


I was simply stating that I didn't agree with all of the things stated in Raven Grimassi's books, not about the person. I also said that there were some interesting things in his books as well, especially in regards to witchcraft lore, but you may have missed that whilst trying to refute something that was irrefutable, my personal opinion of Raven's books

Well, this thread isn't about Grimassi's books. Please return to the topic of this thread.

[Xirian]

Well, this thread isn't about Grimassi's books. Please return to the topic of this thread.
Really now. Okay, well I'll post my initial statement to try to get back to the thread as I have done in my last three posts and have been trying to do in the first place.



But I think this is actually an interesting way to view things. It really shows a connective, almost (dare I say) a familial connection to one's beliefs, that cannot be altered by the introduction of someone else's beliefs or religion. The introduction of new religions seem to meld into their set ways and thinking, without fear of losing what they hold within. I think this is what I like most about what I've learned about the Italian people in regards to many aspects of their culture, the fact that they have faith in their ideals so much so that they don't seem to fear the introduction of something new. They appear to go with the flow and allow themselves to be influenced from outward appearances, but it doesn't appear to be that way from within. Their connections are not broken, but are strong, as is evident by your first post.


I was initially talking about was the Italian culture and the ideals of the people that live in Italy still being very real and discernable to those that live there. I was not talking about stregheria, you were and I was commenting to that. I was talking about the fact that many who live in Italy, past and present, still hold their core beliefs even though it may appear that they do not to onlookers. I was talking about Italian culture, not religious tradition.

How's that? Wow, you are really something. :)

[Stephanie Taylor]

Rasenna, I'm sorry if I contributed towards getting your thread off track. I’m just sick and tired of minimalists trying to sabotage the threads related to Italian witchcraft and paganism.

Anyway, I agree, let's get back on topic.

[Xirian]

Rasenna, I'm sorry if I contributed towards getting your thread off track. I’m just sick and tired of minimalists trying to sabotage the threads related to Italian witchcraft and paganism.
Ah name calling, you've gotta love that.

:lol:

[*Rasenna*]

Alrighty then, moving along, let's get back on topic please and stop the bickering. :geez:

[Vinny Mirabella]

Rasenna – you wrote this reply to another person on the Aradia thread, and I’d like to hear more about it. I think a discussion is appropriate to this thread. I mean as a survival thing.


One of the problems with your position is that it doesn't work with the enthnographic and folkloric field studies of the 19th century. We know from these sources that material was gathered from several different regions of Italy in independent investigations. This material demonstrates a witchcraft tradition very similar to what both Leland and Grimassi write about. Bear in mind that these field study interviews involved people professing to be streghe, Italian witches.

[*Rasenna*]

Rasenna – you wrote this reply to another person on the Aradia thread, and I’d like to hear more about it. I think a discussion is appropriate to this thread. I mean as a survival thing.

No problem. What I was referring to is that we have evidence reportedly drawn from native Italians claiming to be witches. The strength of the evidence is in the fact we can look at independent researchers who didn’t collaborate. This is further strengthened by the fact that the researchers were in different regions of Italy (J.B. Andrews interviewed witches in Naples, Roma Lister in Venice & Florence, Lady De Vere in Rome, and Charles Leland in Florence). So what we have here are native Italians in 19th century Italy presenting a form of Witchcraft that certain modern skeptics insist was created in the 20th century by Grimassi. There’s something of a time warp problem here. ;)

But what we actually have here in our own time is the continuing depiction of what was and still remains a primarily hidden tradition that we only catch glimpses of from people connected in one way or another with Stregheria. It was true in the 19th century and it's still true today.

To save my poor fingers from typing, I’ll paste some things here from the Stregheria site about some of the evidence:

1. Andrews notes:

“The foregoing information was obtained quite recently from witches in Naples. When asked what books they used, they answered none, that their knowledge is entirely traditional”

2. “Nineteenth century folklorist Lady de Vere describes a structured witch cult in an article she wrote in 1894: "...the community of Italian witches is regulated by laws, traditions, and customs of the most secret kind, possessing special recipes for sorcery" (La Rivista of Rome, June 1894). Folklorist Charles Leland comments: “The witches of Italy form a class who are the repositories of all the folklore; what is not at all generally known, they also keep as strict secrets an immense number of legends of their own, which have nothing in common with the nursery or popular tales, such as are commonly collected and published …the more occult and singular of their secrets are naturally not of a nature to be published”.

3. “This theme appears centuries earlier in a book written by Francesco Guazzo, an Italian Ambrosian monk who grew up in the region of Tuscany. Guazzo wrote of the witch sect in his book Compendium Maleficarum, and in chapter ten he notes that witches adhere to certain laws within their society. The book was written at the request of the Archbishop of Milan (Frederico Borromeo) and published in 1608. Guazzo describes in great detail the structure of the Italian witch sect, as well as many other European systems. In chapters twelve and eighteen, Guazzo indicates that witches gather in circles drawn upon the ground with beech twigs, and work with spirits of earth, air, fire, and water among others.”

So as you can see this evidence flies in the face of those who insist such things were not/are not part of Italian witchcraft

If you're interested in the roots of older forms, check out this article. It's about an old Witch mural said to be the earliest image of women being witches (complete with photos).

http://www.stregheria.com/Mural.htm

[Xirian]

I probably shouldn't be commenting but I will. I have never refuted that forms of italian witchcraft have been around for centuries. Quite the contrary. I do not believe that witchcraft and religion are the same thing and perhaps this is where we are having problems understanding each other.

Raven Grimassi stated that his system is based on Wicca and the old religion and he calls it stregheria. That is what I don't think is an old religion. I certainly believe that witchcraft was around in Italy a long time ago, but the idea of an italian witchcraft/wiccan religion being around centuries ago is really hard to concede to. I also do not believe that all witchcraft practices in Tuscany dealt with covens of women outside doing rituals. I believe there were some, but I feel that many of these witchcraft practices were done mostly in the home, near the family.

Interesting information in that link by the way, just as your original post held some interesting quotes as well.

[*Rasenna*]

Raven Grimassi stated that his system is based on Wicca and the old religion and he calls it stregheria.

Not so. This is what Stephanie was trying to tell you that you are confused about. The system that Raven presents in his published works is the Aridian system, which he says openly in the book is modern and created by him. In other parts of the book he talks about Stregheria as a whole, which is something related but different. Stregheria is the thing that the Aridian system is based on. Stregheria is the Old Religion, and the Aridian system is not. I think it was compared to the Baptist faith being a branch of Christianity, but not Christianity itself. The case is the same with the modern Aridian system being a branch of Stregheria, but not Stregheria itself.


That is what I don't think is an old religion. .

Obviously it's not when Raven himself says it's modern. No one will argue that the Aridian system is what is practiced in Italy, now or in the past. Raven certainly would not.

[Xirian]

Thanks for your thoughts.

[raven grimassi]

Stregheria is the thing that the Aridian system is based on. Stregheria is the Old Religion, and the Aridian system is not. I think it was compared to the Baptist faith being a branch of Christianity, but not Christianity itself. The case is the same with the modern Aridian system being a branch of Stregheria, but not Stregheria itself.

Good analogy. I am hopeful this has finally cleared up the misunderstanding.


No one will argue that the Aridian system is what is practiced in Italy, now or in the past. Raven certainly would not.

No, I would not even suggest that the Aridian system is native to Italy. Parts of it definitely are, but like I said in the book it is a modern creation of my own. But the Stregheria I was originally taught is something very old.

When we look at old references to Stregheria, one of the most significant comes from Girolamo Tartarotti, an Italian scholar and theologian born in 1706. He wrote a book titled Congresso notturno delle lamie (The nightly congress of the witches). In it he states that “Stregheria” is a religion focused on the goddess Diana. Did he decide to stay in one rainy afternoon and invent this, opening himself up to attacks from his peers and the Church, and risking the ruin of his reputation? Probably not, and the reason is more likely that the connection to Diana is something his study and research led him to conclude. But were there earlier references to Diana and her connection to Witchcraft?

We do know that the ancient Roman poet included the goddess Diana in his Epodes, which feature a Witch named Canidia. This demonstrates that the concept is ancient. Now granted, Horace was not writing history in his Epodes. His works are literary. However we know that other ancient Greek and Roman writers also referred to a goddess associated with Witches and Witchcraft. So it seems safe to assume this was a common and accepted connection among the people.

We also know that the cult of Diana, in one form or another, continued on well into the Christian era. St. Martin of Braga noted it in his 6th century travels in southern Europe. Diana also pops up in the 10th century mentions of the society of Diana, which is featured in the so-called Canon Episcopi material. Since the cult of Diana continued in the Christian era, it is really no stretch to consider that Witches were among her followers. Here are some interesting supporting documentations that span several centuries:

1006.: 19th book of the Decretum (entitled Corrector) associated the worship of Diana with the common Pagan folk.

1280: Diocesan Council of Conserans associates the “Witch Cult” with the worship of a Pagan Goddess.

1310: Council of Trier associated witches with the Goddess Diana (and Herodias).

1313: Giovanni de Matociis wrote in his Historiae Imperiales that many lay people believed in a nocturnal society headed by a queen they call Diana.

1390: A woman tried by the Milanese Inquisition for belonging to the “Society of Diana” confessed to worshipping the “Goddess of Night” and stated that “Diana” bestowed blessings upon her.

1457: Three women tried in Bressanone confessed that they belonged to the “Society of Diana” (as recorded by Nicholas of Cusa).

1508: Italian Inquisitor Bernardo Rategno wrote in his Tracatus de Stigibus that
a rapid expansion of the Witch Cult had begun 150 years earlier. He concluded this from his study of trial transcripts from the Archives of the Inquisition at Como, Italy.

1519: Girolamo Folengo (Italian poet) associated a “Mistress” known as Gulfora with witches who gathered to worship at Her Court, in his Maccaronea.

1526: Judge Paulus Grillandus wrote of witches in the town of Benevento who worshiped a goddess at the site of an old walnut tree.

1576: Bartolo Spina wrote in his Quaestrico de Strigibus, listing information gathered from confessions, that “witches” gathered at night to worship “Diana,” and had dealings with night spirits.

1647: Peter Pipernus wrote, in his De Nuce Maga Beneventana and De Effectibus Magicis, of a woman named Violanta, who confessed to worshipping Diana at the site of an old walnut tree in the town of Benevento.

1749: Girlamo Tartarotti associated the Witch Cult with the ancient cult of Diana, in his book Del Congresso Nottorno Delle Lammie. In his A Study of the Midnight Sabbats of Witches he wrote: “The identity of the Dianic Cult with modern witchcraft is demonstrated and proven.”

1890: Author Charles Leland associated the Witch Cult with the goddess Diana, as a survival of the ancient ways, in his books: Etruscan Magic & Occult Remedies, Legends of Florence, and Aradia; Gospel of the Witches.

What I find interesting, and confirming, is the findings of the folklorists in Italy during the 19th century. Those people interviewed by the folklorists were native Italians who reportedly practiced a form of Witchcraft unknown outside of their traditions. This demonstrates that some native Italians claimed to be practicing traditions that were not reflected in the common lore and culture of Italy. The situation has not changed today.

However, the field study interviews today are done among Italian Catholic peasants who do not claim to be Witches, and yet modern scholars use these interviews to form their opinions about what is and isn’t Witchcraft. One contemporary scholar is Sabina Magliocco who spent some time interviewing people in a small sheep herding community in Sardinia, and then wrote about Italian Witchcraft after talking with these Italian Catholic peasants. How non-Witches can reveal the truth about Witchcraft is something that escapes me. But I digress. ;)

So, what is Stregheria? It is the survival of an ancient tradition of Witchcraft. In Italy it is still very much hidden and secret. In my published books I present a system I created, which I call the Aridian tradition. I based this upon the Stregheria that I was taught, but had no intention of revealing the Craft as a whole. Therefore, as I indicated in the book on Italian Witchcraft, I mixed in some Wiccan elements in order to present enough to make a book of it. It should go without saying that the Aridian system is not what is practiced in Italy, and is not what I was originally taught. The Aridian system should be regarded as Italian-American. What I and my initiates practice is Stregheria of the Old Country (without the Wiccan additions).

Stregheria itself is much larger than any single tradition that it contains. No one can speak for Stregheria as a whole, me included, because it consists of individuals as well as covens and family units. These are people of free will, and therefore they may make changes here and there that are not reflected in the practices of other Witches. No one has the patent or copyright on Italian Witchcraft. I know that certain people believe they do, but that is another story for another thread. ;)

[*Rasenna*]

Thanks for your thoughts.

They were facts, not thoughts, but you're welcome anyway. :)

[Carla O'Harris]

I'm not confusing anything. And this is not the reason I entered this conversation in the first place, to refute or concede to whether stregheria is new or old or whether the Aradian trad is old or new. I have no interest in the new stergheria religion and it's tennents of belief, nor do I really have interest in the Aradian trad. I added my two cents because I'm interested in the Italian culture as it stands now and the ideals of the people who live in Italy and the beliefs that they hold. I'm also interested in their witchcraft practices.

And you're acting as if they're some giant Adam Kadmon-Italy with one voice, some kind of corporate entity with no diversity whatsoever. That seems like a Volkish approach. There's all kinds of regional cultures, and within those, all kinds of different traditions.


I am interested in the Italian culture, it's people and their beliefs, not yours and Raven's. Why is this difficult for you to understand?

Umm ... Raven's is rooted in a specific Italian tradition. But maybe you're interested in every other Italian tradition but that one. And to say that something is "new" but with only "connections" to older things is merely to say that the Baptist church is newer than the Catholic, but they are both Christian. It's a new denomination but not a new religion. It's a very oooooold religion in fact.





Yes, this is true. But what I was initially talking about was the Italian culture and the ideals of the people that live in Italy still being very real and discernable to those that live there. I was not talking about stregheria, you were and I was commenting to that. I was talking about the fact that many who live in Italy, past and present, still hold their core beliefs even though it may appear that they do not to onlookers. I was talking about Italian culture, not religious tradition.

Ok, so you're interested in mainstream Italian culture, not all of the varied Italian religious traditions. How does one separate the two?

[Vinny Mirabella]

No problem. What I was referring to is that we have evidence reportedly drawn from native Italians claiming to be witches. The strength of the evidence is in the fact we can look at independent researchers who didn’t collaborate. This is further strengthened by the fact that the researchers were in different regions of Italy (J.B. Andrews interviewed witches in Naples, Roma Lister in Venice & Florence, Lady De Vere in Rome, and Charles Leland in Florence). So what we have here are native Italians in 19th century Italy presenting a form of Witchcraft that certain modern skeptics insist was created in the 20th century by Grimassi. There’s something of a time warp problem here. ;)


Yeah that pretty much puts the nail in the skeptics coffin. Hard to argue with independent results that back each other up. :cheers:


But what we actually have here in our own time is the continuing depiction of what was and still remains a primarily hidden tradition that we only catch glimpses of from people connected in one way or another with Stregheria. It was true in the 19th century and it's still true today.

Yeah I get that. The past research by the folks in Italy is being brought back and not invented. I think in Grimassi's case they want to shoot the messenger. I guess it's because what the skeptics have doesn't hold water by comparison.

[Xirian]

I think my biggest issue is with the use of the word "stregheria" by anybody at this point really.

[*Rasenna*]

I think my biggest issue is with the use of the word "stregheria" by anybody at this point really.

Really? Why is that?

[Linchetto]

I saw this thread referenced on another MW forum. I want to bump this old thread because I'm reading a book titled Black Madonnas: Feminism, Religion, & Politics in Italy. It's by Lucia Chiavola Birnbaum. She holds a doctorate in European and U.S. history from the University of California at Berkeley, and won the American Book Award from the Before Columbus Foundation in 1987 for her book Liberazione della Donna: Feminism in Italy.

In her book, Lucia explores the pagan roots and their inherited elements within the Catholic cult of the Black Madonna. Here's an Amazon.com link:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Madonnas-Feminism-Religion-Politics/dp/059500380X/ref=pd_bbs_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217534736&sr=8-11

The author talks about the connection between the Black Madonna and Artemis-Diana. Lots of material here for the case of saints being used as veneers for pagan deities in Italy and elsewhere. The book also shows how many modern Italians are embracing their pagan heritage and rediscovering what was once masked over by the Church.

So, has anyone here ever run across interesting pagan connections to the Black Madonna?