When did Goddess Worship In Ireland Begin?

[Danustouch]

Eric brought up a point in the St. Patricks day thread, about Goddess worship not being present during the time of St. Patrick.

I was wondering...what evidence is there pertaining to a starting era of Goddess Worship in Ireland? When did Goddess Worship begin there? I know that many believe that the worship of the Goddess in Ireland started with the bronze age, and continued on throughout history, until today. But...is there evidence to the contrary?

[Éric]

Heya, Danu's! Interesting topic. :)

I would offer that there's no evidence whatsoever that worship of a singular goddess has ever taken place in Ireland (save in some of the modern Wiccan covens of Dublin, whom aren't bad people for the most part ;). Even if one were to accept the idea that the pre-Celtic inhabitants of the island were Neolithic monotheists (for which, again, there's no evidence), such worship ended, without a doubt, with the coming of Indo-European Celtic tribes who were completely polytheistic.

There's usually some mention at this point of the goddess Danú, with whom I believe you're already familiar, to judge from your name. The problem with presenting her as some sort of worship figure is that she was never seen as such by Celts ourselves. Rather, it was her children that we reverenced as local and tribal deities. If one wishes to currently honor her, that's one thing, but there's no precedent for such in Irish culture itself.

Summary: While goddesses were worshipped in Ireland, they were done so alongside gods, and all such beings were seen as distinct beings, definitely not as aspects of any übergod or übergoddess, as some modern Wiccans and neopagans conceive of deity. Monotheistic Goddess worship is alien to Celtic cultures, both ancient and modern.

My two pence. :)

[Danustouch]

Summary: While goddesses were worshipped in Ireland, they were done so alongside gods, and all such beings were seen as distinct beings, definitely not as aspects of any übergod or übergoddess, as some modern Wiccans and neopagans conceive of deity. Monotheistic Goddess worship is alien to Celtic cultures, both ancient and modern.

Can you please clarify this a bit? So you are saying that Goddesses were worshipped in Ireland, But that they were seen as equal (balanced) with the Gods? I've personally never thought that Goddesses were solely worshipped there. I have always thought that Goddesses and their Consorts, The Gods, were worshipped equally. Is this a correct assumption? And is their no evidence of worship of Danu, or any cult or sect specifically devoted to her worship? Or only in as much as she was the mother of the Tuatha de Danaan?


By the way...Glad to have you aboard. What part of Ireland are you from? I have family in Ballinagh, County Cavan.

[Éric]

I'm saying that goddesses were worshipped alongside gods (not as "Consorts", necessarily), and who was worshipped more depended on where and who you were.

There has never been, as far as anyone knows, worship of Danú. She was part of the cosmology only as far as being the progenitor of the gods who *were* honored.

I'm from Florida, originally. :) My family comes from Kerry, mostly, and I've spent about eight of my twenty-four years living there.

[kblackthorne]

I think the problem here is with any sort of concept of "the Goddess". "The Goddess" didn't exist.

What did exist were a whole collection of Gods & Goddesses... none of whom relied on their relationship with another individual for their divinity.

To refer to the Gods as "the consorts" of the Goddesses is to 1.) Imply that being consort to a Goddess was what granted their divinity, and 2.) Imply that was the only relationship -- or that it was a particularly important one.

Now, while that relationship IS seen as important in modern Wicca, it was not (Eric, correct me if I'm wrong, here) particularly important to the pre-Christian Celts, Irish or otherwise. They worshiped a complex pantheon full of complex relationships... which could NOT be reduced to "God X is Goddess Y's consort."

[Danustouch]

That is not what I was implying at all. I should have worded it differently.

What I meant, was that Gods and Goddesses were both worshipped, and that often, their were Goddesses AND their consorts. Or..I could have equally said Gods AND their consorts (the Goddess- es) It was phrased Goddesses FIRST because the thread was about Goddesses being worshipped in Ireland.

[kblackthorne]

Right -- you're implying that the consort relationship is important.

That it's important enough to be mentioned.

That deities were linked because of who had just slept with whom.

Whereas my understanding of Celtic deities would indicate that who your sister is (for example) would often be as important as who your lover is.

The emphasis on the consort relationship seems to be a fairly modern one, from what I understand.

[Arduinna]

It's been my understanding, and I might be wrong, that the Gods and Goddesses were seen as ancesters to the different tribes and clans? So much so that each tribe or clan had their own pantheon, if you will. Not sure if this was also true in Ireland, but I thought it was true of at least some Celts. For the life of me I can't remember which time period it would have been though?

I'm a little distracted tonight.

[Danustouch]

Actually...what I said was......

What I meant, was that Gods and Goddesses were both worshipped, and that often, their were Goddesses AND their consorts. Or..I could have equally said Gods AND their consorts notice the "often". Important word ;) :D I didn't say always, nor even most of the time.

I was correcting my earlier post, which came off sounding like a generalization.

[Danustouch]

Eric,

I don't know if you have read this article yet. But it seems to be very interesting. Linking the Goddess Danu, to Anna, or Annan .and why it seems it is possible she was worshiped, only...under a differen't name :)

http://www.imbas.org/danubile.htm

[Éric]

I love Alexei, but this won't be the first time I've disagreed with him, if he's suggesting active worship of Danú. :)

Ref. the tribal/god connection mentioned earlier: Yes! :) Different gods were held with differing importance, depending on who and where (and when) you were. As the end of the pre-Christian era in Ireland approached, Lúgh seems to have been taking predominance, but up until that time, it was common for different tribes in different regions to have relationships with certain gods that could most easily be described as "patronage" for a modern laymen audience. This wasn't merely a Gaelic trait; it was present in other Celtic cultures, and also in the related Germanic cultures. The Anglo-Saxon kings of England, for example, were descended from Wóden, and claimed him as their patron. The same relationship was held between the Yngling dynasty in Sweden and Freyr. The endurance of this worldview, if not the particulars, can be seen in historical instances such as the relatively recent giving of the Bràtach Sith to the Clann mac Lèoid. An Otherworldy being (in this case, a sidhe rather than a god) takes interest in a familial group for whatever reason, and shows their favor in a relationship of affection and loyalty. The familial group down the road has had different experiences, with different beings, and so honors them accordingly.

[Arduinna]

Thanks Eric, for the wonderful information.

You know, knowing that they had tribal/clan associations with the Gods, has sort of left me in a conundrum. How does a person living in modern times, adapt the past style of worship to today?

We have no known familial/tribal association with specific Gods/Goddesses.

I've read Kondratievs book The Apple Branch, and it left me with even more questions.

[Danustouch]

If I were to base my worship on my tribe/clan, i'd be a little confused. My relatives are from Ireland, county cavan, but before that, most likely from Scotland. And, we all know that in times past, the Celts migrated back and forth from Ireland to Scotland quite frequently.

[Éric]

Points:

Most modern-day Celts aren't members of Celtic tribes. I'm acknowledged by chiefs as a member of several, but that doesn't really help much, as the vast majority of Celts, both tribal and non-tribal, Gaelic and Brythonic, are Christians, and don't really care who their ancestors worshipped before. There are clues to whom did what in oral tradition, archeology, etc., but that takes a lot of interpretation...for example, a clan might have an association with a particular Celtic saint whom we're pretty sure was simply a Christianized god, and that's a good indicator of *something*, but it's not concrete. I would submit that tribal affiliation isn't really helpful in determining whom you honor. Modern tribes don't have the same social structure as they used to; whereas once you would live the majority of your entire life with the tribe, and be raised worshipping whomever they deemed appropriate, today we're scattered all over the earth, and largely Christian to boot. I would honor whomever you feel moved to honor. As a personal example, if family/religious history is true (which I believe it is), I'm descended in a literal way from the gods Wóden (Germanic), Hama (Germanic) and Dónn (Gaelic). I honor them all, but I don't focus on them just because they're my ancestors, or my more recent ancestors did. I honor them as one should a respected relative who happens to be a god ;), but that lineal relationship doesn't dictate whom I worship.

Alexei's book is interesting. Maybe someone should start a thread in the appropriate forum to discuss it. :)

[kblackthorne]

I honor them as one should a respected relative who happens to be a god

On one level I get this, on another my head is just reeling! :p

[Éric]

Well, it makes perfect sense to me...but I suppose it should, otherwise I wouldn't do it. :)

[Earthcup]

Originally posted by Éric
I honor them as one should a respected relative who happens to be a god ;),

:D and this is my cousin Macha, she's into horseracing...

:rotfl:

Let's see I've got a smidgen of Spanish and German in me, a bit more Scottish, British and Cherokee and a lot of Irish(Belfast and Dublin). If I focused only on the Gods of my ancestors my altar would look very odd. :eyebrow:

[Arduinna]

Eric, thanks for the suggestion

I started a topic about the Apple Branch/Celtic Rituals in the book forum.

[Éric]

Originally posted by Earthcup
If I focused only on the Gods of my ancestors my altar would look very odd. :eyebrow:

Well, it's not for everyone, I suppose...:)

[Earthcup]

Hey, besides I tried that once. If I remember right it was called being a culture thief. *evil grin*

But then I suppose your Gods have a common background which makes it easier.

[Danustouch]

For those of you wondering, I split this thread, so that the posts on Lady Alice would be in a thread all their own. But the thread goes by the same title.