Pagans are idiots - By Brett Keane

[SSanf]

Well, I thought this sure was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjk1Ruu2FQ

You may want to respond in the comments. Comments can only be 500 characters and you can post a comment up to 3 times.

[H.P. Dolamite]

:lol:
Oookaaay then.

If I learned anything from this video......Its that Goths give the rest of Pagans a bad name.
But hey, this video gave me a good laugh.

[Infinite Grey]

:lol: It's funny cuz it's... -cough- never mind.

[Pagan Warrior]

Can't watch it at work ... will check it out later.

[IvyWitch]

I think Brett Keane needs to get a life.

[StormVixen]

riiight...

[johenn123]

meh, I really wanna make a video in reply to that called "Brett is an idiot" but I won't lower to his level

[Novembers River]

His investigation is poor at best. The "hundreds" of pagans he's supposedly interviewed all appear to be goth kids.

Nice way to get a broad impression of pagans.

[Amelserru_halqu]

You know its funny because... well never mind, shutting up now.

[Meadhbh]

What did he do, crash the Silver Ravenwolf fan club convention?

[StormVixen]

These are his main points:

Pagans...
...don't contribute to socity.
...sit in woods smoking pot.
...don't have anything to offer.
...are immature.
...don't understand what they claim to believe in.
...don't believe in a god.
...shouldn't call themselves superstitious names like "Pagan" or "Wiccan" and should just call themselves environmentalists.
...like to think that they are important.
...are cowards.
...all smoke dope (and support drug companies singlehandedly apparently!).
...are the only people who buy candles.
...don't know what they're talking about.

yep thats about it...

[Wyrmwood]

Ok, so in Mr. Keane's world, you are either "average and normal", or, you are a" f**king idiot". I wonder where Keane places himself in this hierarchy? Because, if he considers himself "average and normal", then average and normal is defined as old white men that need to have their picture taken and posted on the internet with their gun in hand.

He failed not only to dazzle me with his brilliance and baffle me with his bulls**t. I think, perhaps, Viagra would help his self-image problems considerably.

:fpraise:

[sarabethv]

His sample of "pagans" did seem rather on the limited side. Interesting pictures, no wonder he felt that pagans are immature if he didn't interview anyone over the age of 16. :D

It is difficult to take anyone seriously when they pick a few things and make generalized and overly broad statements about "all" of anything.

He didn't interview me. :( Oh wait, probably because I don't fit his criteria.

[wolfjan1]

He has a foul mouth and he knows how to use it. I am not certain why people with limited vocabulary and little social education have the need to spout their poiltical views like they are some sort of gospel. Then again, I am not sure why one's hair has to be bigger than they are to be a "CHRISTIAN" tele Evangelist, but that's the way it goes. I cannot say just ignore him and he will go away, because that's not going to happen. But I sure bet he will be upset if somebody defined idiocy for him and handed him a mirror.
Bless you all

[sarabethv]

So that's why I'm not a christian??? My hair isn't poufy enough.

[SSanf]

Well, I am adding to the comments but I could use a bit of help. Hint, hint.

SEE ALL COMMENTS
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=BEjk1Ruu2FQ&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DBEjk1Ruu2FQ

[wolfjan1]

HAHAHA!~ have you ever cruised through the channels and SEEN those women? They need a Drag queen to dress them, cos they cannot do it on their own! And I don't mean that disrepectfully!

[wolfjan1]

Ssanf, just bringing it to our attention was gift enough. I would just like to know which rock these folks came out from under. There has got to be some kind of charm, or a Witch bottle or something we can put under there to deal with them.
Anybody out there have a spell?

[Dio]

If certain pagans don't like his accusations, then it would be in their best interest to stop doing the things he's accusing them of doing. No reason to be offended if you're not actually doing any of that.... right?

Prove the guy wrong. That's all you can do.

[SSanf]

Thing is this idiot does not even understand that Paganism is many religions. Then he wonders why he can't get a straight answer as to what we believe. Dunderhead.

[Knate]

If certain pagans don't like his accusations, then it would be in their best interest to stop doing the things he's accusing them of doing. No reason to be offended if you're not actually doing any of that.... right?

Prove the guy wrong. That's all you can do.


Can't argue with reason.:hahugh:

[Arion]

Most people are idiots, Pagan or otherwise.

[NiftyWings]

What did he do, crash the Silver Ravenwolf fan club convention?

:rollingla D'ya think?


Actually, I have yet to hear anything he's stated that applies to me. I have a life, I contribute to society, I don't smoke dope, and the statements he's heard that he says make Pagans sound like idiots are the same things that annoy me when I hear them from the "wanna-be's".

[LostSheep]

feeling like i ought to know who brett keane is, i looked him up. I presume it's the same one who's done works like

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=a0cb0ce8dac2b49c0135610e6c6dcc67.861655 ?,

in which case he seems to be a professional atheist, so i'd hardly think it's just Paganism he's having a go at.

[SilentDreams]

While I must admit, pagans in general(at least the ones that make it into the "radar" of general society) are easy targets. They tend to be on the "fluffy" side of the fence and often put us all in a bad light. So I'm all for a good argument on the silly ones who prance around seeing "dark entities" at every corner and hang out at the mall while trying to "support nature".

But as I said above, I'm up for a GOOD argument on that category of Pagans. Mr. Keane did not go for that category. He went for Pagans as a whole. Which hey, if you can do it, all the power too ya!

But he couldn't do it. His entire argument was weak and he obviously did the worst research in years. It seems to have rivaled the quality of a survey done by High School students:lol:

According to him all pagans are apparently goth. At least one would assume so having seen his pictures on the video. Mind you many of those have just been floating around the internet at many different goth sites. None of which have any truth in claiming the person(s) involved are Pagan of any sort.

But who needs fact when you have such earth-shatteringly good accusations supporting your claims?

Oh lets look at a good one. Pagans support the drug companies! This is SO true! I can't think of any other way to pass the hours by than to smoke a joint! Yippeee!

(Note the HEAVY sarcasm)

All truth be told. I've smoked a few cigarettes and had some alchohol in my short 19 years. I've NEVER even so much as thought of doing any drug. So he can just kiss my patootie!

Oh but there are better points made in this video! Candles are only popular thanks to pagans. Cause apparently, with modern sources of light, they're obsolete and it's only our use of them which has made them so popular. Um...I don't know about you. But since when have I ever used candles for light? Power goes out? Yes! Any other time? Nope. I use those honest-to-goodness modern electric lights for all my lighting needs. Candles are ONLY decoration in my house thank you very much!

He also makes another strong point. Athiests are great because they're skeptical. You see, us silly little mall-goth pagans(We're all this way, didn't ya know? Brett Keane has the proof!) apparently aren't skeptical at all.

I hold myself by far to be one of the BIGGEST pagan skeptics I've ever known. I question things all the time. Even my own personal experiences! Hell for almost two years now I've been trying to rationalize why I sometimes feel I have empathic tendencies. It's only been within the last year or so that I've let myself truly believe that I can control energy around me(to a minor degree).

I don't run around seeing dark beings and I sure as hell don't believe half the stuff most modern pagans do. So thank you Mr. Keane for once again generalizing like no tomorrow! It really backs up all your hard work.

And his final point of truth and intelligence. Pagans are waiting for their welfare checks. Um...I've never been on welfare and I'll have you know I work and I'm going to be attending college later this year. My finances, while being tight, are being taken care of by me solely. I don't ask others for money and I make my credit card payments and pay my rent.

Mr. Keane...thank you for the englightening speech. It held very little merrit and I think he's just prooved himself to be a far bigger idiot than he thinks others are.

[IvyWitch]

If certain pagans don't like his accusations, then it would be in their best interest to stop doing the things he's accusing them of doing. No reason to be offended if you're not actually doing any of that.... right?

Prove the guy wrong. That's all you can do.

You're missing the point....the point is that Pagans are not at all like what he's described. All he's managed to do is give us some insight into the mind of the goth teenager who hangs out at Hot Topic. Nothing that he said applies to real Pagan faith. If you're going to criticize a religion, or it's adherents, the least you can do is find a decent cross-section of it's population. He doesn't do that, he just generalizes. Generalizations don't make compelling arguments.

[Knate]

You're missing the point....the point is that Pagans are not at all like what he's described.

But some are. :hahugh:

[Knate]

If I learned anything from this video......Its that Goths give the rest of Pagans a bad name.






well then..

[Dio]

You're missing the point....the point is that Peoples are not at all like what he's described. All he's managed to do is give us some insight into the mind of the goth teenager who hangs out at Hot Topic. Nothing that he said applies to real People faith. If you're going to criticize a religion, or it's adherents, the least you can do is find a decent cross-section of it's population. He doesn't do that, he just generalizes. Generalizations don't make compelling arguments.

I get the point. I just don't see the point in getting upset over something that an obviously uneducated and biased person would say, unless it was hitting a little too close to home.

He seems to make rants about a lot of concepts. I doubt a lot of people would take him seriously anyway. So the argument is nill to me.

[Arion]

Yeah, I doubt it was meant to be a serious, educated speech - he's just venting his own opinion. Personally, i thought it was quite funny, he hit all the Pagan stereotypes on the head. Unfortunately, he isn't all that inaccurate. I like his video on morality too.

[Sage Rainsong]

Who is he; why should I care?

[Dio]

Who is he; why should I care?

:D

[SSanf]

When things like this go up on Youtube, they are there forever. This went up two days ago and has had 325 views so far. Assuming his subscriber base grows, and I think it will, this will be seen over and over again. This video has been favorited 3 times, so far, which means all their subscribers will be seeing it as a favorite and they may pass it on. It is viral and it grows expontetially. I know the numbers sound small but they really become huge. That is why I think such things should be answered if they are really stupid and perpetuate negative sterio types.

Perhaps, he will come here and we can talk to him. A couple of us got in a plug for MW.

[Knate]

I thought this video was funny as hell.

[Philosophia]

:lol: The guy's hilarious! He does make some valid points and I've met, both on-line and in RL, the people he's talking about.
However, I think his whole aim is to encourage people to watch his videos, regardless of whether its true or not. He does it for publicity and it works.

[SSanf]

He says he want us to come over there and talk to him.
But posting there is hard due to the limitations.

[Teresa]

He sounded like a cheap version of Andrew Dice Clay !

[SSanf]

LOL!! I hope he makes it over here. He will ridicule us, but that is OK. At least, what he makes fun of will be somewhat based on Pagan reality instead of some goth kids he met.

[Teresa]

IMO, he met some wanna be peeps. I have met some too at certain functions. I actually had a young one come up all excited because she just got her " Charmed BoS" with all the spells in it that they used on TV!!!!!! /ROLLS EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Infinite Grey]

hmmm it would seem the vast majority of pagans are "wannabes"... so wouldn't the statement "pagans are idiots" be true in a generalized sense? I mean, plenty of people are happy to label Christians as fanatical oppressive hypocrites based on less evidence. Or even worse, Muslims as unreasonably fanatical women hating killers... just saying.

[Theres]

You're missing the point....the point is that Pagans are not at all like what he's described.
and that's as sweeping a generalization as you are accusing him of.


Nothing that he said applies to real Pagan faith.
but what exactly IS "real Pagan faith"?


If you're going to criticize a religion, or it's adherents, the least you can do is find a decent cross-section of it's population. He doesn't do that, he just generalizes. Generalizations don't make compelling arguments.
true enough.

[SSanf]

There IS no Pagan faith. There are Pagan faiths. And, there sure is a lot of variety. I think that is what is confusing to those who want to talk about what Pagans believe.

We encompass a lot of different religions and the eclectics. Sure there is some overlap from one Pagan path to another but there are also places where we do not come together at all.

[Carla O'Harris]

Slagging is easy. Nuanced, productive critique is another. This presentation was simply a foul-mouthed rant that demonstrates no in-depth analysis. It's not particularly provocative either, in the sense of sparking interesting debate or progressing discourse.

To be quite honest, this really seems like a very off-the-cuff rant against particular people this guy has met who he has a problem with, rather than addressing them individually.

It's really not serious enough to take too seriously.

On the other hand, if he wants to take on an educated, articulate, fightin' pagan, let him come by my way and do an interview with me, or with others that we have on this list who don't fit his easy-to-attack straw man.

[inkywitch]

I tried to find this humorous.. and then when that didn't work, i tried being insulted and irate... and then I gave up cos I was too busy feeling sorry for him after embarrassing himself so badly with his lack of knowledge and having to stick so many hateful, or obscene words in a sentence to make him sound vehement about the subject. He sounds like a middle-aged man with way too much time on his hands looking for attention, which is remarkably sad, considering I thought that kind of immature attitude was saved for 16 year old goth/emo-for-show kids that are mad at their daddy's. Whatever floats his boat.

[SSanf]

I saw you posted that. I wonder if he will have the guts to reply to your post or will do a cop out by deleting it.

This should be interesting.

[Tanya]

These are his main points:

Pagans...
...don't contribute to socity.
...sit in woods smoking pot.
...don't have anything to offer.
...are immature.
...don't understand what they claim to believe in.
...don't believe in a god.
...shouldn't call themselves superstitious names like "Pagan" or "Wiccan" and should just call themselves environmentalists.
...like to think that they are important.
...are cowards.
...all smoke dope (and support drug companies singlehandedly apparently!).
...are the only people who buy candles.
...don't know what they're talking about.

yep thats about it...

sigh... I guess if I went to a rave I would get that impression too..

I HAVe met pagans like this, and most are under 21... and yeah they sound immature and uninformed, because they are kids...its a kid's job to learn and explore, not to be the expert on the subject.. I find Christian teens equally obnoxious because they too don't yet know a whole lot and often don't mind letting you know the depth of their ignorance...

[HungryJoe]

Wow, I like how he said that he interviewed hundreds of pagans but didn't have any real valid pagan facts. It just shows you that the ignorent will really say anything to make themselves look right.

[Lady Aeris]

oh wow...what an ass.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I thought he was hilarious and hit the nail on the head. Most people you see out there who are visibly pagan are morons you wouldn't want associated with your religion.
Yes, he was offensive, but who the hell cares? He was funny, and what he said is sadly true, for the most part.
If you're getting your knickers in a huge twist over this, then I daresay you yourself are guilty of the things he fulminates against.

[IvyWitch]

I thought he was hilarious and hit the nail on the head. Most people you see out there who are visibly pagan are morons you wouldn't want associated with your religion.
Yes, he was offensive, but who the hell cares? He was funny, and what he said is sadly true, for the most part.
If you're getting your knickers in a huge twist over this, then I daresay you yourself are guilty of the things he fulminates against.

Yeah, it's true that a lot of people who claim to be Pagan act like morons, but it's also true that most of those people don't have a single clue as to what Paganism is about, which makes them not really Pagan at all. It's like talking to Jerry Falwell and his crew, and then thinking that all Christians are off thier rockers.

[Infinite Grey]

Yeah, it's true that a lot of people who claim to be Pagan act like morons, but it's also true that most of those people don't have a single clue as to what Paganism is about, which makes them not really Pagan at all. It's like talking to Jerry Falwell and his crew, and then thinking that all Christians are off thier rockers.

Happens a lot around here, and only a few people ever speak up against it.

[IvyWitch]

and that's as sweeping a generalization as you are accusing him of.

Everybody has thier own way of doing things, but I would be really surprised if even half of the people he interviewed weren't claiming to be Pagan for the shock or coolness value.


but what exactly IS "real Pagan faith"?

I'm not saying that there's one way to be Pagan, but he even said most of the people he spoke to had no ability to describe what they believed in. I think that would be superficial or artificial faith, and not "real". Stormvixen listed all of his points, and not a single one of those things is part of being Pagan.

[IvyWitch]

hmmm it would seem the vast majority of pagans are "wannabes"... so wouldn't the statement "pagans are idiots" be true in a generalized sense? I mean, plenty of people are happy to label Christians as fanatical oppressive hypocrites based on less evidence. Or even worse, Muslims as unreasonably fanatical women hating killers... just saying.

Just because people make those assumptions doesn't mean they're right. Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are whack-jobs, and not all Pagans are morons.
Just because they are the loudest doesn't mean it's ok to assume they are the only thing you'll find.

[Infinite Grey]

Just because people make those assumptions doesn't mean they're right. Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are whack-jobs, and not all Pagans are morons.

I never said all pagans are morons... or that Christians were whack-jobs, or that Muslims are terrorists... I just find it amusing that a lot of people can give it but not take it.

[Theres]

and i find it amusing that so much energy is being spent on taking this guy seriously.

:rolleyes:

[Teresa]

Ok, so in Mr. Keane's world, you are either "average and normal", or, you are a" f**king idiot". I wonder where Keane places himself in this hierarchy? Because, if he considers himself "average and normal", then average and normal is defined as old white men that need to have their picture taken and posted on the internet with their gun in hand.

He failed not only to dazzle me with his brilliance and baffle me with his bulls**t. I think, perhaps, Viagra would help his self-image problems considerably.

:fpraise:

He gets my vote for the Idiot category. I wonder if he realizes that many Native Americans, African Americans and people of Eastern Paths fall under the label of Pagan too. Not everyone that is pagan is a Goth or a Wiccan.

[SilentDreams]

He says he want us to come over there and talk to him.
But posting there is hard due to the limitations.

He should come over here! But I doubt he'd last very long.

Even places like MW cannot escape fluffy bunnies. But that doesn't mean that we dont' have some sound minds.

[SilentDreams]

I thought he was hilarious and hit the nail on the head. Most people you see out there who are visibly pagan are morons you wouldn't want associated with your religion.
Yes, he was offensive, but who the hell cares? He was funny, and what he said is sadly true, for the most part.
If you're getting your knickers in a huge twist over this, then I daresay you yourself are guilty of the things he fulminates against.

Hardly.

I am the first to admit that the Pagan society one gets to see are the out-there nutjobs. But that doesn't mean I have to like it when people go about condemning all pagans and using the "goth-kid mallrats" as their only ammo. Maybe I'm self-centered and delusional. But I hold myself(and many others I know) away from that silly "Fluffy" pagan stereotype.

I still have a lot of self-exploration and ignorance to wash away but that doesn't mean I'm anything like the people he's using as evidence to support his views. I was at one time but I've worked and grown and now I'm much further from that "run-of-the-mill pagan" that everyone has the unfortunate pleasure of seeing.

So no, I don't find myself relating with his views. I find myself agreeing that he's summarized the more PUBLIC pagan community fairly well. But he hasn't done nearly enough research to say he knows Pagans as a whole.

[Mesektet]

Hardly.

I am the first to admit that the Pagan society one gets to see are the out-there nutjobs. But that doesn't mean I have to like it when people go about condemning all pagans and using the "goth-kid mallrats" as their only ammo. Maybe I'm self-centered and delusional. But I hold myself(and many others I know) away from that silly "Fluffy" pagan stereotype.

I still have a lot of self-exploration and ignorance to wash away but that doesn't mean I'm anything like the people he's using as evidence to support his views. I was at one time but I've worked and grown and now I'm much further from that "run-of-the-mill pagan" that everyone has the unfortunate pleasure of seeing.

So no, I don't find myself relating with his views. I find myself agreeing that he's summarized the more PUBLIC pagan community fairly well. But he hasn't done nearly enough research to say he knows Pagans as a whole.

Seconding here.
Crazies exist on all paths, as does hatred and a willingness to support prejudice based on biased evidence or a firm reality predicated on uncompromising absolutes.
Crazies ruin it for us all.
Hatred ruins it for us all.
But what seems to ruin us worse is a silence while they do all the spokespersoning.
This is the same thing that leads to peaceful muslims having bullet riddled copies of the Koran left outside of mosques in this country.


Getting up in the face of problem might not solve it.
Silence might not either.

Well thanks for the rant time on it.

[LostSheep]

and i find it amusing that so much energy is being spent on taking this guy seriously.

:rolleyes: yes, and that so many people are getting worked up in indignation at something someone's put on Youtube.

[SilentDreams]

yes, and that so many people are getting worked up in indignation at something someone's put on Youtube.

People try time and time again to invalidate the internet and things that are posted on it. But I highly doubt that holds true anymore.

The internet for most is no longer that "New-fangled whatchamacallit". It's a major source of news and information for everyone. YouTube is one of THE most popular websites in the world. It's fame is rivaling that of MySpace. Millions of people log on each day and see millions and millions of videos posted on there. Who's not to say that 1,000 people or more haven't see this particular video? Haven't been influenced by it's wide sweeping generalizations?

Perhaps I sound paranoid and maybe I am. I just don't think we should brush off "something posted on youtube" as being nothing. In the right format anything on the internet can be powerful.

[Carla O'Harris]

I thought he was hilarious and hit the nail on the head. Most people you see out there who are visibly pagan are morons you wouldn't want associated with your religion.
Yes, he was offensive, but who the hell cares? He was funny, and what he said is sadly true, for the most part.
If you're getting your knickers in a huge twist over this, then I daresay you yourself are guilty of the things he fulminates against.

Who are these people you "don't want associated with your religion" and why?

I also do not understand -- not expressed here by Silverfire, but by other posters but most importantly the original obnoxious YouTuber -- random anti-Goth prejudice.

Anyone who engages in slagging rather than nuanced critique just demonstrates their level --- usually far below what they are slagging.

[Infinite Grey]

you know, this would make an interesting doco... randomly look for pagans on the street... though it wouldn't really work unless you did something like... talk to 50+ pagans in different cities and areas around the world... that's more effort than I could afford.

[LostSheep]

People try time and time again to invalidate the internet and things that are posted on it. But I highly doubt that holds true anymore.

The internet for most is no longer that "New-fangled whatchamacallit". It's a major source of news and information for everyone. YouTube is one of THE most popular websites in the world. It's fame is rivaling that of MySpace. Millions of people log on each day and see millions and millions of videos posted on there. Who's not to say that 1,000 people or more haven't see this particular video? Haven't been influenced by it's wide sweeping generalizations?

Perhaps I sound paranoid and maybe I am. I just don't think we should brush off "something posted on youtube" as being nothing. In the right format anything on the internet can be powerful.

Yes, but Youtube is generally somewhere people put random funny kind of videos, I'm not sure how much influence something on there would have. Though maybe he has hit on a way of getting to a larger audience than he might by setting up a "why i hate pagans" website.

Though does he have it in for pagans specifically? Assuming it's the same Brett Keane, he's also done things like "Jesus Christ the myth" and this one ...

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=a0cb0ce8dac2b49c0135610e6c6dcc67.763719

So I wouldn't have thought he'd have much influence on any fundamentalists who might be passing by. :/

*edit* Views: 551 at last count ... quite a few of whom i bet are people here. :/ :/

[Harmony Aurore]

Well, I am adding to the comments but I could use a bit of help. Hint, hint.

SEE ALL COMMENTS
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=BEjk1Ruu2FQ&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DBEjk1Ruu2FQ

You've been doing a fantastic job, thus far, debating him. He replies with the most ubsurd questions though. And what was his excuse to not come on the boards he to discuss it? "I'm not coming onto a pre existing pagan site"? What kind of excuse is that?

Let's just say it plainly, shall we? All he is, is a redneck with too much time on his hands and a very limited vocabulary.

[LostSheep]

Seriously, how much publicity is he getting out of this? he just seems to be a professional controversialist who likes to irritate people. I'd never heard of him before he popped up on this.

[IvyWitch]

I think it's a waste of time to try and convince him otherwise. It's pretty obvious from the video and his responses that he's already made up his mind and disagreeing with him is just an excuse for him to mock you.
He's a waste of time and energy. Come on, do you really think you can have an intelligent conversation with a guy who believes Pagans worship toilet paper, and Jesus is a mispronounciation of "Hey, Zeus"?

However I think this does bring up the larger issue of the impression people get of Paganism because the "shock value" Pagans are all they see. I think that's an important issue to address.

And, Carla, I am not anti-Goth, I just don't like people forming thier entire opinion of a large group of religions because of a conversation they had with the seventeen year old goth kid who read Teen Witch last week. I have no problems with people who are into the goth subculture, I just don't think that it's right to assume that's what Paganims is about. Keane obviously stopped there, so he's missing out on a lot.

[Dio]

Seriously, how much publicity is he getting out of this? he just seems to be a professional controversialist who likes to irritate people. I'd never heard of him before he popped up on this.

The only people who are paying this youtube video any mind are pagans themselves. Pagans are the only ones fueling this stupid thing. I seriously doubt anyone other than pagans even care about it.

[Amelserru_halqu]

You know... now that I think about it, if I act like that people will never suspect what I can actually do and what I study, so people won't attempt to interfere... yes... a perfect cover.

[Athena-Nadine]

Yeah, it's true that a lot of people who claim to be Pagan act like morons, but it's also true that most of those people don't have a single clue as to what Paganism is about, which makes them not really Pagan at all. It's like talking to Jerry Falwell and his crew, and then thinking that all Christians are off thier rockers.
Interesting. And what, exactly, is Paganism all about? Last I knew, it wasn't "about" anything. Last I knew, it was nothing but a conglomeration of various religions and spiritual practices/beliefs that often have little or nothing in common but a Pagan title.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Who are these people you "don't want associated with your religion" and why?

At Hamilton's second Pagan Pride Day, I found myself surrounded by seventeen-year-old witchlings. They were dressed in clothes that looked like they'd bought them at Value Village's Halloween costume rack, were carting around Silver RavenWolf books, and were incredibly annoying. They were crapping on Christianity left, right, and centre, and wore pentacle necklaces about two inches across. They were some of the most irritating people I have ever had to deal with. I later found out that most of them had jumped ship back to the Christianity they claimed to scorn so greatly.
These are the sort of people I don't want associated with it, and they're the exact kind of people that this guy is ranting about. And I don't want them associated with my religion because most of the time, they're absolute morons.
I have found that the people who have made the most commitment to pagan religions are often the most mundane-looking of the bunch.

[Carla O'Harris]

Ok, but I assume that you don't automatically assume that those who do decide to dress or behave a little differently aren't serious, right? You're just identifying a particular tendency that rubs you the wrong way, I assume.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Not usually, no, unless someone has informed me of stupid-making activities on their part beforehand.

[kismet]

Look at the guy's responses to the rational comments made about his video. He really isn't worth the temporary rise in blood pressure. I've seen some interesting trolling in my life, but the more recent posts delve into "I know you are but what am I?" territory. I expect that from the type of people he mocks.

[Teresa]

Look at the guy's responses to the rational comments made about his video. He really isn't worth the temporary rise in blood pressure. I've seen some interesting trolling in my life, but the more recent posts delve into "I know you are but what am I?" territory. I expect that from the type of people he mocks.

I concur! And in famous words will add : " Beam me up Scottie! There is no intelligent lifeforce (Brett Keane) here!!!!!!!"
He is not worth the time nor energy. Who really cares what HE thinks??

[Slyph]

Well, it got a few laughs out of me, but I wouldn't go so far as "it's funny because it's true". Sure, some pagans follow what he laid out there, maybe even the majority, but there are no more shiftless morons in paganism as there are in society at large, Having sort of bumbled around the fringes of you guys sometimes you even make me think there might be proportionally Less

[SSanf]

OK, I thought I had heard of this guy.
I am pretty sure he wrote these books.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-alias=stripbooks&rank=%20relevancerank&field-author=brett%20keane&page=1

Amazing that he went off on that triade with so little research.

[RainInanna]

I thought he was hilarious and hit the nail on the head. Most people you see out there who are visibly pagan are morons you wouldn't want associated with your religion.

Too bad he painted all Pagans with the same brush, but then I couldn't help thinking "I've seen that kind of Pagan - hell I've BEEN that Pagan" each time he came up with a point. Then again, it doesn't bother me if people think I'm a moron/pothead/loser for being Pagan. I stopped worrying about that kind of stuff when I got over being made fun of in highschool. :ballonsmi

[RainInanna]

I have found that the people who have made the most commitment to pagan religions are often the most mundane-looking of the bunch.

Why do you suppose that is?

[Pagan Warrior]

I just sent the douchebag an email challenging him to send me questions and I will give him a REAL Pagan's perspective. If he takes the bate, I will be coming here to get feedback from you guys :)

[Carla O'Harris]

Invite him over here, and let him discover some pagans with teeth.

[SSanf]

He claims he is going to make a come back video, where he will "own" us. If you have watched very many of his other videos, you will find that he really is much more intelligent and persuasive, than what was seen here.

If he does his research (finally) and does follow through with another video, that makes sense, it could be quite interesting.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Why do you suppose that is?

Probably because they don't need to put on appearances, or something?

[Harmony Aurore]

Well, I've invited him to come and openly and respectfully exchange ideas, and he's accepted. So, hopefully, we can start somewhat fresh and discuss without having a big bitch fight. I know I sound like a kindergarden teacher or something but it would be nice if we could all get along.

I should also mention as a side not that I am not sure whether or not the conversation will occur here or elsewhere, but I'll let you know.

[SSanf]

If he wants to come here, We need to start a new thread for the purpose of answering his questions.

[Grimr]

Well, I've invited him to come and openly and respectfully exchange ideas, and he's accepted. So, hopefully, we can start somewhat fresh and discuss without having a big bitch fight. I know I sound like a kindergarden teacher or something but it would be nice if we could all get along.

I should also mention as a side not that I am not sure whether or not the conversation will occur here or elsewhere, but I'll let you know.

That sounds fun.

[LostSheep]

He claims he is going to make a come back video, where he will "own" us.

"pwn", surely.

[DoktorSick]

He did bring up an interesting point.You have the christian right and there gang doing there thing.Where are the pagan groups taking a stand? Pagan charities? and so on and so forth?

[SSanf]

There are Pagan charities. I think the subject was on Witches Voice a while back. I don't have the information right at hand.

Further, many Pagans work through charities supported by the Unitarian Universalist Church.

My local CUUPS chapter does have several charitable activities throughout the year.

[Pagan Warrior]

He did bring up an interesting point.You have the christian right and there gang doing there thing.Where are the pagan groups taking a stand? Pagan charities? and so on and so forth?

True there are some Pagan charities ... even MW has helped out with the Secret Santa and such. However, there is (unfortunately) still a "stigma" with regards to Pagans and getting an organization off the ground would be somewhat difficult. I could be wrong, but that's my take.

[Pagan Warrior]

By the way, if he DOES come here and post, can someone please post a link to that thread in here??

Thx!

[Slyph]

I'm lookin' forward to this.

[SSanf]

LOL!! I have taken over the last part of the thread over there. Your turn. He said niftywitch needs him to come here because she needs "others to defend" her!!!!

Sounds like he is afraid of us.

Come to think of it, he did express some concern over e-mail he got from Pagan haters. He may, in fact, be afraid. I hope that is not the case.

[Pagan Warrior]

I can't go on to YouTube.Com from work ... will get into trouble :| (they have it blocked)

[Knate]

I bet on his next Anti-Pagan video, its gonna say....................

"Pagans sure can bitch up a storm."


That, or something about gang/mob mentality.

You could always just ignore him so he goes away.

[SSanf]

LOL!!! What! And, miss all this fun?

Actually, I am doing the best I can to be informative. And, after all he offered this video to the mob.

[Knate]

Seriously now, I think some people are getting a bit too carried away here. Why the need to "debate" him.? You really think him coming here is going to change his viewpoint on anything? I highly doubt it.

And no one here going to him and debating is going to change anything but wasting your own time.

[Pagan Warrior]

Seriously now, I think some people are getting a bit too carried away here. Why the need to "debate" him.? You really think him coming here is going to change his viewpoint on anything? I highly doubt it.

I want to see if he really does it ... and whether or not he can be professional and civil.

[AuroraWillow]

Seriously now, I think some people are getting a bit too carried away here. Why the need to "debate" him.? You really think him coming here is going to change his viewpoint on anything? I highly doubt it.

And no one here going to him and debating is going to change anything but wasting your own time.

I agree, he's obviously already made up his mind about everything having to do with any religion. I really don't see a point in getting worked up over it. He's really just a Richard Dawkins wannabe, only....not as intelligent or well read.
Why bother with him?

[LostSheep]

I've said it before; assuming it's the same brett keane, he's had several goes at christianity as well, he just seems to be a professional anti-religion of any sort contraversialist. Do Christians take him as seriously as we're doing?

[Nitefalle]

Slagging is easy. Nuanced, productive critique is another. This presentation was simply a foul-mouthed rant that demonstrates no in-depth analysis. It's not particularly provocative either, in the sense of sparking interesting debate or progressing discourse.

To be quite honest, this really seems like a very off-the-cuff rant against particular people this guy has met who he has a problem with, rather than addressing them individually.

It's really not serious enough to take too seriously.


I have to agree with this assessment, especially after seeing that all the pictures he showed were teenaged-seeming Goth kids. Not that there's anything wrong with the Goth subculture, but it hardly is indicative of Pagans at large. I got bored with it and didn't even listen to the whole thing.

[Caitlin.ann]

That video was ridiculous. Brett Keane DOES need to get a life and quit judging others. I noticed the goth image too. Its sad how ignorant some people can be.

[HungryJoe]

So I've done it. I signed up for an account, I've posted a video response telling him to come over here for a while. I'm just a little worried about what is going to happen now...yep.

[SSanf]

LOL! Good for you!

BTW, you did a superb job of making the video. Everything that you said was so on target.

Five star rating from me!

Here is the link to his video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fn_rLL6EAiU&watch_response

[Amelserru_halqu]

So I've done it. I signed up for an account, I've posted a video response telling him to come over here for a while. I'm just a little worried about what is going to happen now...yep.

I like the hat.

[Meadhbh]

Nice video.

[SSanf]

My only concern is that if he does come here, he will be banned before he even gets into asking his questions and expounding his point of view. His normal environment allows much more disrespect than is allowed here. I would hope some small amount of slack would be made for him.

[HungryJoe]

Thanks guys.

[SSanf]

This is the video he just made where he supposedly "owns" us.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IXWHwJa9U_s

Note the part where he claims someone else said that we said.

[Arion]

He seems like a pretty smart guy to me. He has his opinions, but he isn't forcing anyone to agree with him. He makes a good point about comparing Pagans to fundie Christians.

[Pagan Warrior]

I guess he's to afraid to show his face in OUR back yard to have a real debate. He's obviously just out to get attention.

[Carla O'Harris]

He seems like a pretty smart guy to me. He has his opinions, but he isn't forcing anyone to agree with him. He makes a good point about comparing Pagans to fundie Christians.

Pretty smart guy? He sounds like some coffee-house complainer who is full of himself, and thinks that throwing around epithets constitutes some kind of discourse. The guy is not worthy of much consideration either way, because his discourse is really poor.

Comparing Pagans to Fundamentalist Christians is absolutely absurd, and that holds true even for the most "fluffiest" of bunnies. Absolutely ridiculous and absurd.

[RainInanna]

Absolutely ridiculous and absurd.

How so?

Curious because I've certainly seen more Pagans act pushy and unwilling to consider other views than I've seen Fundamentalist Christians. But maybe I'm just lucky to be in a "low Fundie zone".

[Theres]

The guy is not worthy of much consideration either way, because his discourse is really poor.
and yet he has managed to elicit 114 posts here in only a day or so. anyone else see the irony?

[BFD_Zayl]

i saw this before, for the first 20 seconds i was offended, after that i got alittle sad...poor poor Brett...so dumb...its like watching a mentally challenged bear at the circus, you want to do something but you just can't...eventually someone will have to stand up and say "hey! let that bear go!" and, with luck, it will be let go, and eat Brett Keane

[Arion]

Pretty smart guy? He sounds like some coffee-house complainer who is full of himself, and thinks that throwing around epithets constitutes some kind of discourse. The guy is not worthy of much consideration either way, because his discourse is really poor.

Comparing Pagans to Fundamentalist Christians is absolutely absurd, and that holds true even for the most "fluffiest" of bunnies. Absolutely ridiculous and absurd.

I think the fact that some of you are getting so upset about the stupid things he says is more about you than it is about him. His opinons on religion in general seem pretty accurate to me, and he may not be the most politically correct person in the world, but there's truth to what he's saying. Mainstream Paganism is a joke, and he's pointing out what's wrong with it. It kind of reminds me of the Why Wiccans Suck website, and how Pagans got so annoyed with that, when what the person was saying was completely true. I guess some Pagans just can't take the criticism.


and yet he has managed to elicit 114 posts here in only a day or so. anyone else see the irony?

Exactly.

[SSanf]

OK, he thinks it is a "witch hunt" aginst him here. He wants us back in this thread.

http://youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=IXWHwJa9U_s&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DIXWHwJa9U_s

[Amelserru_halqu]

I like his new one better, its funnier. Also it seems more rational than the last one.

You know... I've been wondering if the first video wasn't just a stunt to try and pull out more pagans in an attempt to either prove his point or find out if what he had observed so far had been wrong. At least that's something I would have done.

Anyways, I think I'm done with this mess, doesn't bother me one way or another.

[DoktorSick]

From the response I have read so far some of you need to really relax a bit.Are you that insecure about what you belief in that you need to debate with someone and try and change there opinion just because they disagree with you ?It seems like anytime someone makes questions,criticize make fun or whatever some sort of religion there is just big uproar about it.So what,They are just words.He is just stating his opinion.
So what if he does come here and you debate him?Are you going to amazing with your knowledge of so called real paganism.And do you think you are really going to change his opinion?

[Maverynthia]

It does sound to me like he went after all the goth kids. And it's kinda sad that all the goth kids sound like they are "pagan" just to fit into the goth scene. Though a Wiccan that didn't believe in the God? Sounds fishy to me... and sounds like someone really DOESN'T know what their beliefs are.

[LostSheep]

and yet he has managed to elicit 114 posts here in only a day or so. anyone else see the irony?


OK, he thinks it is a "witch hunt" aginst him here. He wants us back in this thread.

http://youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=IXWHwJa9U_s&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DIXWHwJa9U_s


This is the video he just made where he supposedly "owns" us.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IXWHwJa9U_s

Note the part where he claims someone else said that we said.
yes .

[Carla O'Harris]

I think the fact that some of you are getting so upset about the stupid things he says is more about you than it is about him. His opinons on religion in general seem pretty accurate to me, and he may not be the most politically correct person in the world, but there's truth to what he's saying. Mainstream Paganism is a joke, and he's pointing out what's wrong with it. It kind of reminds me of the Why Wiccans Suck website, and how Pagans got so annoyed with that, when what the person was saying was completely true. I guess some Pagans just can't take the criticism.

Ummm, again, there is nuanced critique that is aimed at improving that which you are critiquing, and then there is just immature slagging.

A lot of that slagging stems from needing to feel superior to others, often without merit.

If I felt that he had actually made some points with any kind of merit, I would have given him credit for that. But in fact, he doesn't really address the real problems in the pagan community, and spends his time slagging on goths, who for some reason people find a really easy target, just because they choose to look different. I think that's really lame.

[Carla O'Harris]

It does sound to me like he went after all the goth kids. And it's kinda sad that all the goth kids sound like they are "pagan" just to fit into the goth scene. Though a Wiccan that didn't believe in the God? Sounds fishy to me... and sounds like someone really DOESN'T know what their beliefs are.

Ummm, a lot of Goths are pagan.

[Crysiira]

I'm more offended as a goth than as a pagan. As a pagan, I can laugh and say, there are people out there that fit the stereotype, and they deserve to be laughed at and criticized. The pagans who truly believe what they do don't have to be affected by it, because they know what's real and what's not, and they can provide good arguments for/against things. They can stick up for themselves. This is well proven by the people here such as Ssanf who have went in, guns blazing, to defend themselves. They have every right, though I think thier energy is wasted on a slug like Brett Keane.
As a goth, I think this video gives all goths a bad name. But then, there are a lot of goths out there who give goths a bad name. I feel very sad that they played right into his hand. Though in all honesty, I have to wonder if he really did talk to anyone, even a goth, because almost all the pictures he had in his video were taken off a google image search. The fact that kids post those pics are bad enough in giving goths a bad name. I mean, the one labelled "I'm so goth I sh** bats"? Yeah, that's a sentiment we all express. Sure.
The responses I've seen here... "These stupid goth kids are giving us all a bad name"... perpetuate the goth-hate too. There are definitely stupid goth kids out there giving anything and everything a bad name, but don't take it personally, dang it. They're only embarrassing themselves. At the last Pagan Pride Day I went to, I was sitting behind a booth relaxing when I heard the women in the booth begin to complain about all the kids dressed in black who showed up, and these kids just weren't providing the image that the booth ladies thought should be portrayed at an event like this. What?
This is a rather long rant, I apologize. But please... don't hate all goths because a few you know of are ***heads.

[Crysiira]

Ummm, a lot of Goths are pagan.

Not all pagans are goth, and not all goths are pagan. In fact, I know more Christian or athiest goths than I know of pagan goths. I know you weren't intentionally generalizing, I'm just getting this fact out there for everyone.

[SSanf]

You know, I have sometimes wondered if, just because almost all of my posts are about secular issues, if some here could doubt, that I am even Pagan.

LOL!! Well, I guess, I answered that if any ever had such a thought.

My real motive in resonding over there is to give factual information, not to Brett Kean, but to those who may become misinformed by his videos.

Because he is entertaining, if he is not shown to be a fool, some who are mentally lazy or not quite bright, will believe him.

[Pagan Warrior]

I don't doubt that he hit on a couple good points between all the shit, but a lot of it was nothing more than refuse being spilled. He's trying to start a fight, trying to get attention, trying to be a big fish in a small pond. He's one Athiest posting free videos on Youtube.com ... big freakin deal.

[SSanf]

Big deal.

Well, in only a month of posting, he has gotten 405 subscribers. How many will it be by next Yule? For sure, it won't be 405 x 12. Subscribers pass this stuff around.

[H.P. Dolamite]

This guy is just a Athiest fundamentalist.

He states that he is right, and anyone who thinks differently is ignorant.

Hes exactly the same as Christian, Pagan, Islamic, and any other Hardcore Fundamentalist you can give a wag of your finger to.

And a Fundamentalist of any nature is not worth my time.

[Pagan Warrior]

I love how he thinks all Pagans are cowards ... I'd just LOVE for him to visit me here in Phoenix :deviltail

[Whitewolf]

I love how he thinks all Pagans are cowards ... I'd just LOVE for him to visit me here in Phoenix :deviltail

:lol: He is the one who is a coward. What a hypocrite.

[johenn123]

in a way, I love Brent. I mean his view is very narrow and based on a minority. But seriously this stuff is golden.

[Pagan Warrior]

Maybe it's because I'm sick of dealing with ignorant people ... but I can't stand the guy.

[Harmony Aurore]

Hey guys, so Brett is going to try to come onto the site so we can have a good discussion.
I know alot of you are angry (an I'll admit, I was too at first), but really, this is all pretty much a misunderstanding. I know usually, the word misunderstanding is taken as a scapegoat. That no one's at fault.

But what I mean by misunderstanding is simply that he doesn't understand our perspective... and we need to try to see where he's coming from. If we can have some polite dialogue, we can clear this up. With an understanding of each other comes respect.

I know some of you may say "but he started this" or that he wasn't respecting us. But if that is true, why would you want to act that way too? If your view is that he is disrespecting you, try and be the better person. A good open and respectful dialogue can only be helpful.

I really hope that we can have some sort of resolution where both sides are happy with the answers we get.

I know that sometimes, when you read something that hits a nerve, you just want to lash back. I'm just asking you to please keep your emotions in check so that we can have a polite discussion about beliefs... without personal attacks.

I said this before... but this isn't about who's right and who's wrong (and not having to defend yourselves either)... this is about getting a deeper understanding of one another. and with an understanding, respect is sure to follow (which, I'm sure you can agree is mutually benificial to all)

So, what do you say guys? are you in?

[SSanf]

He claims he caim here and before he could even post, someone disabled his account! Is that true???

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=IXWHwJa9U_s&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DIXWHwJa9U_s

[LostSheep]

Yet more publicity!! He must love us.

[SSanf]

Assuming he has his registration approved, we need to warn him right off about the rules of respect so he won't get kicked out.

Yes, I think "Just Pagan" would be a good place for him to ask questions.

He says he is interested in Atheists and Pagans having united political power. If that is the case and he doesn't blow his membership, there would be a place for him to work toward that goal in "Political Pagan". His membership here does make sense.

[SSanf]

If he does become a member, I am going to request this thread be removed on the basis that it violates the rules of respect for other members.

[Pagan Warrior]

If he does become a member, I am going to request this thread be removed on the basis that it violates the rules of respect for other members.

I agree, I think there has been a lot of animosity on our side ... perhaps on his (so it would seem). I think it would be awesome to create an Athiest/Pagan allied political party (I really don't see that happening any time soon, but the thought is nice). Perhaps an allied political party for the spiritually diverse?

[Witchy_Momma]

It sounds like this guy isn't talking to the right people.

Leslie

[Teresa]

If he does become a member, I am going to request this thread be removed on the basis that it violates the rules of respect for other members.

I would agree with that. If he is a registered member this would be disrespectful of him and a violation of the forum rules.

[Harmony Aurore]

grrr... whatever. not worth it anymore. i'm beginning to think that you were all right about him being a complete troll

[Teresa]

Question for Ya'll . If a pagan by definition is anyone who is not a Christian, Jew,or Muslim, wouldn't that make him considered a "pagan" there for also an idiot by his own statement?

[Pagan Warrior]

Question for Ya'll . If a pagan by definition is anyone who is not a Christian, Jew,or Muslim, wouldn't that make him considered a "pagan" there for also an idiot by his own statement?

LOL that is funny and true!!

[Autumnsong]

Seems to me that a person who considers himself an Atheist has NO right judging ANYTHING where religion is concerned. If he thinks it's all BS or stupid in the first place, he's already biased toward the outcome of his research and he isn't going to look for things to counter his own opinions.

Atheists don't (or can't or won't) understand people who have faith in a Higher Being...

Why should we put stock in their opinions on religion, then?

[Maverynthia]

What gets me about goths is that they say they are Wiccan, a specific branch of Paganism, and then go on to say they worship nature and that there is no God. From what I've read about Wicca is that it has a God and a Goddess and that it's not so much nature worship as reverance for nature. So, it seems to me that these goth Pagans don't know what the heck they are saying or believing. Which DOES make goths as a whole look bad. Another thing I noticed is that goth seem to be more like Satanists than towards paths like Wicca. They engage in a kind of hatred for mainstream stuff and some even go so far to break the law and try and find ways to trash themselves. Basically a "Me me me!" complex.
So Pagan, yes many might be, however the Wiccan that I hear some claim to be? No.

Also, wasn't the Gothics a Christian movement in art that included a lot of color? (Which is another reason I don't get why goths call themselves that when they dress in black and white.)

I will say that all the dealings I've had with goths have not been very pleasant and thus why I say that they seem to be a very self serving type of group.

[LostSheep]

here's some stuff about Gothic architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture

and here's something about Goths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth

and here's something about the Goths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths


Gothic architecture has nothing to do with the historical Goths. It was a pejorative term that came to be used as early as the 1530s to describe culture that was considered rude and barbaric.

:0

[StormVixen]

What gets me about goths is that they say they are Wiccan, a specific branch of Paganism, and then go on to say they worship nature and that there is no God. From what I've read about Wicca is that it has a God and a Goddess and that it's not so much nature worship as reverance for nature. So, it seems to me that these goth Pagans don't know what the heck they are saying or believing. Which DOES make goths as a whole look bad. Another thing I noticed is that goth seem to be more like Satanists than towards paths like Wicca. They engage in a kind of hatred for mainstream stuff and some even go so far to break the law and try and find ways to trash themselves. Basically a "Me me me!" complex.
So Pagan, yes many might be, however the Wiccan that I hear some claim to be? No.

Also, wasn't the Gothics a Christian movement in art that included a lot of color? (Which is another reason I don't get why goths call themselves that when they dress in black and white.)

I will say that all the dealings I've had with goths have not been very pleasant and thus why I say that they seem to be a very self serving type of group.


goths aren't all bad... believe me...! please dont judge goths based on your unpleasant experiences of them...

[cheddarsox]

Wondering what all the hoopla was about...I've tried to listen to four of his "videos", but I'm tired of his "I'm the only person on earth with a clue" tone of voice, his need to use derogatory adjectives ad nauseum (yeah, we get that you don't respect these people, get on with it), and how boring his whole presentation is. I can't believe that he is getting that many people who think he's so wise or funny(?) that they are sitting through multiple 9 minutes diatribes against anyone or anything.

He's supposedly attacking "my" group, but so boringly that even I can't be bothered to waste my time to listen to it...if I can't be made to care...how much damage can he be doing? seriously, how many people have nothing better to do than listen to him drone on about how stupid everyone who isn't him is?

I expected to at least be entertained...

He's disappointed me miserably.

cheddar

[Harmony Aurore]

What gets me about goths is that they say they are Wiccan, a specific branch of Paganism, and then go on to say they worship nature and that there is no God. From what I've read about Wicca is that it has a God and a Goddess and that it's not so much nature worship as reverance for nature. So, it seems to me that these goth Pagans don't know what the heck they are saying or believing. Which DOES make goths as a whole look bad. Another thing I noticed is that goth seem to be more like Satanists than towards paths like Wicca. They engage in a kind of hatred for mainstream stuff and some even go so far to break the law and try and find ways to trash themselves. Basically a "Me me me!" complex.
So Pagan, yes many might be, however the Wiccan that I hear some claim to be? No.

Also, wasn't the Gothics a Christian movement in art that included a lot of color? (Which is another reason I don't get why goths call themselves that when they dress in black and white.)

I will say that all the dealings I've had with goths have not been very pleasant and thus why I say that they seem to be a very self serving type of group.

Actually, there's a pretty cool book called the "goth bible" that's an interesting read. A problem is that there are so many types of goth (it's an umbrella term), that you can't make grand all encompassing terms like that. There are white goths, punk goths... but the one that has to do with historical gothic art is the victorian goths.

They use the clothing stylings of the victorian era. They do use a darker pallette, but that's because one thing that most goths have in common is a love and appreciation for death and all that comes with it.

anyways... if you really want an understanding for the culture, check out the book. it's an extended survey of the scene. However, I warn you, it's pretty mediocre of a book. The first dozen chapters, however, are pretty good (it gets repetitive after that)

[sari0009]

Well, I thought this sure was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjk1Ruu2FQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjk1Ruu2FQ)




The following were just some of the videos Brett Keane made in the last four days or so:

Pagans are idiots - By Brett Keane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjk1Ruu2FQ&mode=related&search=)
The Pagan Challenge - By Brett Keane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BOd8fKshD8)
Pagans & Agnostics - By Brett Keane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N824KxZwQw4)
Mystic Pagan Wimps - By Brett Keane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njs0rFJnwo4)
Pagans make good Kindle wood - By Brett Keane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXWHwJa9U_s)

When is progress not progress? When someone such as Brett Keane focuses more on what he sees as the crazy beliefs of others (http://www.xanga.com/sari0009?nextdate=1%2F23%2F2006&cal=1) only to mirror basically the same various underlying abusive deceptive tactics, logic fallacies, and even dualism (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147017&page=16) (such as atheism good, religion/agnosticism bad, see bottom of dualism chart (http://www.neopagan.net/Dualism.html)) that contribute greatly to the old pattern of one tribe/group/religion hurting another...rather than keeping the eye on the prize, including but not limited to the following:

We need better common ground (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=8%2f6%2f2005+23%3a59%3a59.999) in a pluralistic society and to know how to better nurture it on a daily and sustained basis.
We need to protect separation of church and state (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=6%2f26%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999).
We need learned empowerment (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=11%2f16%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999), as individuals and citizens, in which we break tasks and questions down into manageable steps and monitor and improve progress.

In Expose on Brett Keane Part I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p9DEXCqdkg) (there is a part two as well), SerpentSlayer1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/SerpentSlayer1) (whose (http://www.youtube.com/user/SerpentSlayer1) YouTube videos are only about Brett Keane) points out that Keane's videso are based on opinion, attacks on religion, lies, and misquotes.
Keane (slayerz@earthlink.net) that Christians can be very destructive (http://www.truechristian.com/askpastorjim0505a.html) when challenged – exactly what we saw of Keane. (See Pagans are idiots - By Brett Keane (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147017), Gathering Info on Pagans ... Please Reply! (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147263), his above listed videos (http://youtube.com/watch?v=njs0rFJnwo4), and their accompanying revealing responses....many which expose his lies and logic fallacies.)
Although there is no wikipedia.org page on him and he's a minor author, Keane's books often get good ratings (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/141160802X/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-6413320-1039040?ie=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155). His stories are based on dualism (http://www.neopagan.net/Dualism.html) and slam religion for its deceptions, violence, torment and hate.
Although there is no wikipedia.org page on him and he's a minor author, Keane's books often get good ratings. His stories are based on dualism (http://www.neopagan.net/Dualism.html) and slam religion for its deceptions, violence, torment and hate. Like some of his religious fundamentalist cousins, Keane repeatedly uses name calling, logic fallacies (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2937390&postcount=42), and deception. (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2937135&postcount=25)For instance (about the name calling), it's simply unnecessary to call MW (mysticwicks.com) Pagans crack whores on welfare (http://youtube.com/watch?v=IXWHwJa9U_s) -- there is something called “emotional violence,” some of it severe (http://child.cornell.edu/army/lessoncolor/sld011.htm), but some of it more public, as in the case with Keane's treatment of others in his 200 plus YouTube videos.
I noticed the http://godhatesyou.org (http://godhatesyou.org) site on the cover of one of Keane’s books. The site is now defunct, but this is what I pulled up in a search:

God Hates You! - Testimonies of Ex-Christians (http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2004/06/god-hates-you_06.php)
"sent in by Brett Keane The first time I questioned the faith was when my grandmother ... is crap!...also check out my book at http://godhatesyou.org (http://<b>godhatesyou.org</b>) ..."Did these ex-Christian works closely resemble the infamous and often vile/toxic ex-witch videos that some fundie (in particular) Christians put out (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_article.html?a=cabc&id=5021)? Here are a few sites on ex-witch stuff.

http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detaila.html?id=11111 (http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detaila.html?id=11111)
http://www.leaderu.com/theology/teenwitchcraft.html (http://www.leaderu.com/theology/teenwitchcraft.html)
Despite what Keane says, Pagans are increasingly defined in certain ways (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=11%2f26%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999)and are keenly interested, active, and frequently specific about how and why we should protect our country from theocracy/crypto-theocracy (see concrete steps to take (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=6%2f26%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999)).

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Interesting.

Is it just me, or does Serpent Slayer sound just like Brett Keane?

Since I'm not American, I could be being misled by a chance similarity in accents.

Love,
Terri in Joburg

[sari0009]

Interesting.

Is it just me, or does Serpent Slayer sound just like Brett Keane?

Since I'm not American, I could be being misled by a chance similarity in accents.

Love,
Terri in Joburg

Not sure.

Was wondering that myself (which is why their nicks are in bold font, in my comment above).

SerpentSlayer1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/SerpentSlayer1)'s YouTube videos are only about Brett Keane. Trolls frequently do create alternate personalities (or may have friends/family help) that war with or assist their other personality/personalities.

[Harmony Aurore]

It doesn't sound like the same voice to me. Different accents.

[Infinite Grey]

They have the same pitch of voice and manners of speech... yet Serpent has a different accent (Canadian I think.) He does sound like Brett though.

[Harmony Aurore]

They have the same pitch of voice and manners of speech... yet Serpent has a different accent (Canadian I think.) He does sound like Brett though.

You're right peacock, Serpent's accent is Canadian (as am I), but Brett's accent seems more southern (by southern i mean further south than Canada! lol. everything is south to me!)

[H.P. Dolamite]

When I become President of America, I want Brett Keane to be my Vice President.

[wooleybob]

What a idiot..He needs to get a life..alsojmo the link does contain alot of the F word for our younger members to hear..jmo

[Arion]

Are we still on about this guy? The dead horse has been beaten enough.

[coeur]

I wish people would stop taking everything so seriously. This is funny. And partially true. Okay, so possibly pretty true for somewhere around half the pagan population. Just enjoy it already.

[ajna]

Yeah, I just listened to it for my first time. I don't see what everyone seems to have a problem with. The man has obviously met the "fluff bunnies" (is that term still used?) of paganism as many of us have done with Christians and people of multiple other faiths. He did mention that he has met some "normal" pagans, so he has at least had the experience, it just hasn't been the majority of his experience and that is what he was sharing. I must say that hearing someone rant about shallow pagans is a change from the shallow christians I often hear about. It was nice to hear someone trying to understand something for once (despite his urge to make some sort of controversy over it later).

[sari0009]

Yeah, I just listened to it for my first time. I don't see what everyone seems to have a problem with. The man has obviously met the "fluff bunnies" (is that term still used?) of paganism as many of us have done with Christians and people of multiple other faiths. He did mention that he has met some "normal" pagans, so he has at least had the experience, it just hasn't been the majority of his experience and that is what he was sharing. I must say that hearing someone rant about shallow pagans is a change from the shallow christians I often hear about. It was nice to hear someone trying to understand something for once (despite his urge to make some sort of controversy over it later).

Not that simple. He's created over 200 YouTube videos and counting, sometimes churning them out within hours of each other. Not quality work.

Told many obvious lies about mysticwicks and what he observed here, some of which were captured and articulated well in this very thread, some in Gathering Info on Pagans ... Please Reply! (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=147263), and some pointed outs in the comments accompanying some of his videos.

Basically, he uses a dualistic (http://www.neopagan.net/Dualism.html) shock jock approach and makes many of the same mistakes his religious fundamentalist bretheren do, meaning that he shirked religion but not the same caustic power and control freak fixated behaviors. Could drive Mack trucks through his logic errors.

He's counting on the fact that most will not have the attention span or ability to understand and articulate what he's doing and when some did...he simply churned out more work to dazzle and burry things under.

[LostSheep]

Not that simple. He's created over 200 YouTube videos and counting, sometimes churning them out within hours of each other. Not quality work.. Which suggests he's either hit on a way to get his message to the masses ... or he has a lot of spare time on his hands.

[KiNoRonin]

I just spotted this thread.

Not Only Pagans, but Everyone Else have the same ability to either be Wise or Smart.

That Fact is the Basis for my Favorite Saying, which goes:
"Mankind may have enough Intelligence
to Split the Atom,
But the Average Ordinary Human
Has the Average Ordinary amount of Wisdom
as the Average Ordinary Baboon"

KNR

[sari0009]

Which suggests he's either hit on a way to get his message to the masses ... or he has a lot of spare time on his hands.

Both...but his method of reaching the masses isn't doing much for his Amazon book ranking #'s, the latest of which lags far behind even some of the leading authors in Paganism, who considered minor authors at this time.

Some of those authors are on MW, and I suspect that is why he chose this community.

[Malcolm]

I watched some of his other videos too. I have to say, I kind of agree with him.

[Pagan Warrior]

I watched some of his other videos too. I have to say, I kind of agree with him.

Perhaps because he's attacking someone else?

[ajna]

Both...but his method of reaching the masses isn't doing much for his Amazon book ranking #'s, the latest of which lags far behind even some of the leading authors in Paganism, who considered minor authors at this time.

Some of those authors are on MW, and I suspect that is why he chose this community.

Lol, I didn't know he writes books!

[Malcolm]

Perhaps because he's attacking someone else?


??

uh, I'm a pagan to there guy...so I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "someone else"

[Pagan Warrior]

??

uh, I'm a pagan to there guy...so I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "someone else"

You said you watched Brett Keane's other videos and you kind of agree ... "other videos" insinuates videos not related to the Pagan slander. I am only suggesting that it's easier to agree with someone who is not attacking YOUR belief system.

And one more thing ... please don't call me "guy"

[Malcolm]

And one more thing ... please don't call me "guy"


no problem.

I just think everyone is taking this guy to seriously. Hes just a dude on youtube. He rips on everyone not just pagans.

Seriously though, your gonna tell me you've never met anyone like what he described? I'll say the majority of the pagans I've met in real life act and sound exactly like he's describing.

[RainInanna]

I just think everyone is taking this guy to seriously. Hes just a dude on youtube. He rips on everyone not just pagans.

To me it's just feeding a troll. Keep giving him fodder and he'll keep trolling.

[Malcolm]

To me it's just feeding a troll. Keep giving him fodder and he'll keep trolling.

TEH WINNAR!!!!111!!!!

[Pagan Warrior]

Seriously though, your gonna tell me you've never met anyone like what he described? I'll say the majority of the pagans I've met in real life act and sound exactly like he's describing.

Oh I've me them ... I've also met Christians who get angry that I'm going to hell (and don't seem to care), I've met JW's who are out of control, I've met Mormons who are very VERY self righteous ... I've also met good people from each of the aforementioned groups. I figure I've got two choices: 1. Generalize and persecute on those generalizations, or 2. accept that there are good and bad in all things and get over it. Just because there are Pagans who act the way Brett describes doesn't mean that it should used to describe who we all are. The majority of Pagans I've met are normal people not goths who haven't done an ounce of research.

[Malcolm]

Yeah, but you see...you ARE a pagan. So of course you know the ones that act normal. Think of it from an outsiders perspective.

If the normal ones don't seem pagan, then they don't register as pagan in your perception of reality. The outlandish goth kid sporting the huge pentacle and more than happy to spout off whatever crap information he has...definately registers as pagan, and that is what the majority of societies sees.

Not the normal down to earth ones. The outrageous idiots. Thats were that image comes from.

[noxtwice]

i thought it was the funniest thing i have heard in a very long time. i didn't take offense at what he said at all. you can't take yourself too seriously in life, life is too short.

[brettkeane]

Hello Pagan friends. I finally got in & looking forward to conversation. I posted a thread if you would like to talk with me.

[Teresa]

Reporting this thread in hopes that it gets closed as brettkeane is indeed a registered member here now and this thread is disrespectful of him.

[Agaliha]

Reporting this thread in hopes that it gets closed as brettkeane is indeed a registered member here now and this thread is disrespectful of him.

That is true, since he's a member the rule applies.

[GEBS]

Thread Closed



The thread is closed because brettkeane is now a member of the forum.

[Xentor]

Thread Closed



The thread is closed because brettkeane is now a member of the forum.

Thread reopened. Brett Keane no longer is a member.

General warning: keep it civil.

[AuroraWillow]

Yeah, but you see...you ARE a pagan. So of course you know the ones that act normal. Think of it from an outsiders perspective.

If the normal ones don't seem pagan, then they don't register as pagan in your perception of reality. The outlandish goth kid sporting the huge pentacle and more than happy to spout off whatever crap information he has...definately registers as pagan, and that is what the majority of societies sees.

Not the normal down to earth ones. The outrageous idiots. Thats were that image comes from.

If you want to learn about a religion, and you only talk to the people who wear thier religion on thier sleeve, you probably won't learn much of anything. Brett should have realized that it takes more effort than a trip to Hot Topic with a pad and pen to learn about Paganism.

I suppose he's right in the sense that the "token goth kid" is a large part of Paganism's public image, but nearly every religion has a public image that isn't a fair representation. If someone who is researching any religion stops at that superficial level, then thier opinions on it should be totally irrelevent anyway. Actually it's kind of ironic, because he's part of the staunchly anti-religion atheist crowd that is a part of atheism's negative image. So, his opinions are worth as much as the "playgans". But I suppose that's what you get from idolizing Dawkins *shrug*.

[Harmony Aurore]

Lets be honest, he never wanted to know anything about us. He wanted to bait us so we can give him any dirt at all, and call us out on one of his videos... all to increase his own popularity. Let him do that on you tube. I don't think we should give him any more publicity here. I suggest that we let all of his threads die.

[SSanf]

He just made a video where he shows his face in front of the camera for the first time. Talk about a stereotypical image! He really looks goofy.

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[SSanf]

were you going to link us?
Well, I wasn't going to give him the link. But, here it is.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jdtQEVNAhXw

He is trying to look all bad and Satanish.

LOL!! The face of atheism! Black glasses and all.

He looks like an aging goth kid in decline! He looks like he got old and the goth kids won't have him around any more. Maybe, that's his beef.

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[SSanf]

I think he looks like some kind of an aging pervert to the goth teen girls that he talks to in the malls. No wonder he gets nonsense responses about their beliefs. This really accounts for a lot.

[H.P. Dolamite]

He looks like they guy that would always try to sell us pot back in high school.

[H.P. Dolamite]

Someone mentioned on youtube that he looks like "Farva" from the movie "Super Troopers".




He kinda does.:lol:





http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/DolamiteHP/29301521-farva_jpg.jpg

[SSanf]

He CAN'T talk to people like me and thee because we avoid the type.

[Harmony Aurore]

fine. out of "respect" I say nothing. *pout*/*shivers in disgust*

but seriously, can we let this die?

[LostSheep]

well, it's made 20 pages.

is that enough yet?

[Xentor]

Admin mode

Harmony Aurore, I warned everyone, including you, to keep the discussion civil. Mr. Keane is banned for his behaviour. I will put you on time-out if you force me to.

Let it die? That's in your own hands, people. Your choice.

[Pagan Warrior]

He looks like they guy that would always try to sell us pot back in high school.

:yayah: :lol: :lol: :awilly: :hehehehe:

[Malcolm]

Was he even inhaling that cigarette? I know its a stupid question but he started talking and all I heard was "Wa-wa-wa wa-wa wa" y'know...like in the peanuts cartoon. So naturally my mind wandered...

[HadouKen24]

Ah, man, that's the worst goatee I've ever seen. So asymmetrical.

[SwordsFlameSong]

Well, I wasn't going to give him the link. But, here it is.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jdtQEVNAhXw

He is trying to look all bad and Satanish.

LOL!! The face of atheism! Black glasses and all.

He looks like an aging goth kid in decline! He looks like he got old and the goth kids won't have him around any more. Maybe, that's his beef.


Ahhh man. I should so know better than to click links.

:hahugh:

[Pagan Warrior]

Ahhh man. I should so know better than to click links.

:hahugh:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~prealm/misc/humor/ohgodwhycliklink.jpg

[Gwenhwyfar]

That guys voice puts me to sleep!...I tried telling him so, but apparently Im blocked from commenting on his videos....Didnt he say he was big into freedom of speech? hmmm

[SwordsFlameSong]

http://www.users.qwest.net/~prealm/misc/humor/ohgodwhycliklink.jpg


Ahh now that is most appropriate! :lol:

There really should be a LCA (Link Clickers Anonymous) for those of us thus afflicted. =)

[SwordsFlameSong]

That guys voice puts me to sleep!...I tried telling him so, but apparently Im blocked from commenting on his videos....Didnt he say he was big into freedom of speech? hmmm

Are you a member of youtube? I didn't try to comment but I got the impression that you'd need to be a member to do so.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Are you a member of youtube? I didn't try to comment but I got the impression that you'd need to be a member to do so.

yes, Im a member. Iv never been blocked like that before..Im thinking he knows Im from here and hence the blockage :) Not that I care that much, I just think its hypocritical...spout about freedom of speech and then block someone after one negative comment...8O

[SwordsFlameSong]

yes, Im a member. Iv never been blocked like that before..Im thinking he knows Im from here and hence the blockage :) Not that I care that much, I just think its hypocritical...spout about freedom of speech and then block someone after one negative comment...8O


Ahh that does put quite a different spin on it. Maybe he's afraid of you? :hehehehe: Though I fail to see why. Bluntness should be admired. And since he is so blunt why would he mind another person holding the same characteristic? (not insulting you here) I mean it sure would be terrible if pagans commented and proved to be the farthest thing from idiots eh?

Yeah though, is hypocritical. I was reading the rah rah comments, smirking into my cup of coffee and rolling my eyes. I find narrow minds rather amusing in an annoying way.

[Gwenhwyfar]

well at least we now know why theres so many rah rah comments, its because he deletes and banns the negative ones! lol, how pathetic!

[SwordsFlameSong]

well at least we now know why theres so many rah rah comments, its because he deletes and banns the negative ones! lol, how pathetic!

You have probably hit the nail right on the head with that one!:hahugh:

[StormVixen]

i don't seem to get blocked or my posts deleated... maybe im too nice!

[Chibi-Fallon]

Im thinking he knows Im from here and hence the blockage :)

I can't tell if you're kidding or not, but I assume you are? :huh:
I feel like unless he's stalking MW that's impossible.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I can't tell if you're kidding or not, but I assume you are? :huh:
I feel like unless he's stalking MW that's impossible.

Its possible, because I did get to post one comment...and it was mixed in with all the other MWs comments...so it would have been kinda obvious. I cant even find that post now though-he may have deleted that to.

[LostSheep]

I expect he does that anyway. Maybe he did recognise you from here, or maybe he guessd that you were, or maybe he just does that to everyone who doesn't say what he wants to hear.

[ladyraven]

I just watched the little video, and I wanna know why all the pictures of spooky kids and baby bats. For those you unknowing of the lingo, kids who wanna be goth or just stared out in the subculture. Most these kids don't know how to do their make-up let alone know what they believe in. Now yes, I'm apart of the subculture and have been for some time, but I've come across alot of these individuals and it's about the equivilant of asking a 5 year why they believe in Santa. I would like to know why he didn't go ask any elder goths who are pagan and have been for years or actually talk to the members of a coven or two who aren't all sunshine and rainbows(you know the type).

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[cheddarsox]

He came here, early in the morning, discussed with four people for two hours, decided he was right about pagans, and decided he wouldn't talk to us anymore.

Sorry, he didn't give MW or paganism anything like a fair chance. That's his perogative, but I was watching the action, it wasn't like he was chased out of town on a rail.

Then someone begged him to come back, and instead of discussion with people who were clearly interested in having real debate/discussion with him, he again took the low road, grabbed a few sarcastic comments of a discordian, and went off to make another hate video.

There were people here who would have been happy to discuss with him, but honestly, those aren't the posts he bothered with. I am starting to agree with the title of this thread..Pagans are idiots if they waste their community and forum on that kind of "debate".

If he or anyone else wants to discuss/debate/learn about paganism, it's an open forum. They can come and join the fun. Happens all the time.

This particular man got the reaction he invited by his own words and behavior. We get new members everyday, many who know less of paganism than BK, yet they manage not to bring scorn on themselves, because they come in with a respectful attitude.

There are tons of things that are discussed here that I don't agree with, but it is not useful to me, the community, or the world to pontificate on my personal opinions of all these things, neither here...or on youtube.

[Zelan]

Suddenly IM in a foul mood.....

Brett keane is an Idiot----My opinion and it aint changing!

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[Zelan]

I know what I believe in, and many here know what they believe in...that is a question, once settled can bring a measure of peace in one's life.

I will not even go on a rant, explaining all that I disagree with him on....not feeling a huge need to have that guy condone or bless what I believe in.

I realize that people like that will alawys be amongst our population, taking potshots at what they dont understand.

Part of what incences me too is that people bother to respond to it.

personally, I dont have to account for what I believe in or love to someone like that.

A casting of pearls before swine...thats the best side that coin could ever flip to.