Wiccan Mythology

[Bix]

One thing has confused me about the whole Wheel of the Year thing in the Wiccan religion. When the moon is full, you celebrate Esbats which corresponds to the Mother aspect of the Triple Goddess. I've always had the impression the God wasn't so much celebrated during that time. The moon represented mostly the Goddess in Wicca.

But during the Sabbats, it's moreso a celebration of the God's life and His relationship with the Goddess. So when a Sabbat comes around where the Goddess is supposedly with child (ex. from Samhain to Yule) and in the Mother aspect, what happens if Yule falls on a time when, say, the moon is New and thus showing the Maiden aspect?

Are the Sabbats and Esbats just celebrations of the aspects of the God and Goddess or is there a belief that the God and Goddess are actually -that- particular aspect at -that- time?

I really hope that makes sense. I'll clarify things if need be.

[wolf]

what happens if Yule falls on a time when, say, the moon is New and thus showing the Maiden aspect?

You mean like right now? ;)

You know, it never occured to me that way? But ... thinking about it now, maidens become mothers, and since this is the time of the rebirth of the God and the return of the Son, it kind of makes sense.

[Bix]

Yes but what happens if say the waning moon happens on Yule? Situations like that.

[Arion]

I think you're over-thinking things, Bix;)

[RainInanna]

I think there's a belief that they actually are at that stage at that time as far as it useful to creating a ritual or patterning your magical work. Just like when you do a spell and use whatever correspondences fit, I would think here you would use what fits rather than sticking to rigid rules. The point is not to restrict oneself to one right way, but to provide ideas for everyone to celebrate and work as they so choose.

That said, an esbat is not a celebration, as is a sabbat, from my experience at least. It is a good time for magical work, such as power raising, petition magic, and so forth. Esbats are usually held every full moon or new moon as that is a good monthly marker to do work together. However, I imagine if a group were to focus entirely on the aspect of the Goddess that suits (ie. the Mother at full) every single time there was a full moon esbat, it may get rather tedious. Who wants to focus only on the Mother just because they meet at every full moon?

The sabbats are really the celebrations of the turning of the wheel - the changing of seasons and changes in ourselves as we grow from maiden through to crone, beyond and back again. The focus here is different and ritual drama may be enacted such as the mythology you are referring to.

The other thing is that the moon cycle is monthly, whereas a woman's life does not follow that pattern. Whereas you can see a woman may go through maiden/mother/crone (and then again, she may not!) in her lifetime, she certainly doesn't in one month. The monthly cycle of the moon can be a pattern for energy (waxing and waning throughout a month), but still it's not an absolute. Generally I don't think people feel the Goddess goes from maiden through crone every month and again. Then again it's a slippery slope for anyone to say "Wiccans believe this or that", since I would not hesitate to point out every Wiccan believes differently.

[Elderbush]

A lot of Wiccans don't go for the whole maiden-mother-crone Triple Goddess thing and think that the esbats are pretty much coven business meetings while the sabbats are the true celebrations. The moon may have deep meaning to a person's magic workings or to the individual's practice but...it's a personal thing and doesn't have to correlate with the sabbats.

In my tradition, at least, we stress that the god and goddess are equal. I know Wiccan that do not much care for the whole Goddess giving birth cycle mythology although they know the mythology. They center their practice more on the turning of the wheel and nature.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I know that I generally view the full moon as "Hooray! Goddess time!" and not a lot more than that, whereas new moons are more "Hooray! Newness time!" when one can work on increasing something, and that's basically as far as it goes.
Since the Sabbats are a seasonal thing we experience directly, I'd say that they have more of an influence, so that's the idea which would come first.
In an esoteric sense, one could say that the newness of the moon echoes the rebirth of the Sun. It's a pale, weak, flickering light, but like the moon it's going to get stronger, brighter, and more powerful, until it once more dies away.
In 2001 there was a full moon on Samhain, as I recall.

[Bix]

I remember the full moon on Samhain, it was really cool. :)

So, the impression I'm getting from people in the phases of the moon are moreso symbolic of the triple aspect of the goddess. It's more a reminder than something set in stone. During Esbat workings, the aspect of the goddess that is needed is used and not just the Mother aspect since it's a full moon.

The Sabbats are for showing the change of seasons and this is symbolized by the mythology of the lifecycle of the God?

I'm just trying to sort this all out in my head, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Eran]

I remember the full moon on Samhain, it was really cool. :)

So, the impression I'm getting from people in the phases of the moon are moreso symbolic of the triple aspect of the goddess. It's more a reminder than something set in stone. During Esbat workings, the aspect of the goddess that is needed is used and not just the Mother aspect since it's a full moon.

The Sabbats are for showing the change of seasons and this is symbolized by the mythology of the lifecycle of the God?

I'm just trying to sort this all out in my head, so correct me if I'm wrong.

These are very common ways of looking at it yes. As someone else pointed out, not everyone uses the "Triple Goddess" Maiden-Mother-Crone idea (it's not in any of Gardner's writings, for instance), so many of the issues you're thinking about would not be of concern for those people.

In general, in the religion of Witchcraft, the Moon is associated with the Witches' Goddess, and the Sun is associated with the Witches' God. And yes, the solar cycle is usually seen as a depiction of the annual year-myth of this particular God. The lunar cycle is usually seen more as indicating ebb and flow of energies which are good for different kinds of magical workings. This means that, in general, the issues connected with them are normally kept separate. (There are exceptions, certainly.)

[odubhain]

In general, in the religion of Witchcraft, the Moon is associated with the Witches' Goddess, and the Sun is associated with the Witches' God. And yes, the solar cycle is usually seen as a depiction of the annual year-myth of this particular God. The lunar cycle is usually seen more as indicating ebb and flow of energies which are good for different kinds of magical workings. This means that, in general, the issues connected with them are normally kept separate. (There are exceptions, certainly.)In Nature, these cycles blend to give us the weather.

Searles

[Greyharp]

The bottom line is, as you put in the thread title Bix, it's just "mythology", not meant to be taken literally - well, at least not by most Wiccans I've come across. Nor does mythology have to make logical sense from a human perspectice, especially when dealing with notions of deities.

[KeaErisdottir]

But during the Sabbats, it's moreso a celebration of the God's life and His relationship with the Goddess. So when a Sabbat comes around where the Goddess is supposedly with child (ex. from Samhain to Yule) and in the Mother aspect, what happens if Yule falls on a time when, say, the moon is New and thus showing the Maiden aspect?

Nothing. The purpose of the Sabbat is to celebrate and honor the Gods. You do that. As it is not a Full Moon, there is no Esbat, though people may choose to focus on the Waxing Moon magically outside the Sabbat itself.

You're a wee bit too focused on 'rules', I might add. This is a very uncomplex process for people attuned to it.


Are the Sabbats and Esbats just celebrations of the aspects of the God and Goddess or is there a belief that the God and Goddess are actually -that- particular aspect at -that- time?

Sabbats are the times when we celebrate the Gods through specific environmental changes and human activities that correspond to agrarian activity. Esbats are times in which we often perform work for the sick, petition the Gods for changes, and find other kinds of communion. There has apparently been a lot of Goddess-focus in your reading that has led you to believe that all Wiccans follow what is honestly a somewhat stunted, and needlessly rigid paradigm for the celebration of the seasons and cycles of life.

It would perhaps surprise some people to find out that a lot of Traditional Wiccan groups aren't even necessarily celebrating Sabbats near the posted dates, preferring to wait for specific signs in the world outside for their rites.

[Bix]

I'm just curious how others see the Esbats and Sabbats. I appreciate all the input from everyone. Cleared things up very well.

[Louisvillian]

Are the Sabbats and Esbats just celebrations of the aspects of the God and Goddess or is there a belief that the God and Goddess are actually -that- particular aspect at -that- time?

I really hope that makes sense. I'll clarify things if need be.
I think it is mostly symbolic. Granted, the Gods chose those things to be their symbols, but I do not think the yearly cycle is a direct and literal interpretation of what the Gods do. After all, they're Gods, not humans; they likely operate in ways that are totally mysterious to us as a whole, and with reasons and manners we cannot, as mortals, fathom. To me, the Esbats and Sabbats are celebrations of the corporeal symbols and manifestations of the Gods in an effort to be closer to Them and what They chose to represent Themselves.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

[Lunacie]

I've seen even older threads get ressurected. It's cool if there is more discussion, not-so-cool if it's an old poll and someone votes without adding anything to the discussion, bumping the thread for no reason.

The Wheel of the Year - the Sabbats follows the symbolic life of the God... lover, Oak King, Holly King, newborn son. And therefore the life of the Goddess also follows a symbolic cycle... lover, widow, pregnant with child, new mother.

[RainInanna]

Nor does mythology have to make logical sense from a human perspectice, especially when dealing with notions of deities.

To me it's all theater - choose the myth that fits your group's needs, moods, preferences or what have you around this time. The sabbats offer a basic framework that vaguely matches the change of seasons. They're not meant to be literal, but symbolic, opening a mythic time, nudging the subconscious towards the desired energies and intentions. Pick the play you like and perform it. You play and your mind works the energies.

It's the same with timing correspondences for spells. You might not wait till the Friday when Venus is where have you and Virgo is wherever and the moon is this or that full. You might notice the correspondences that do fit your spell intention, or even modify the intention slightly to work the current season/sign/hour/day into the spell (example - the moon is waning, so I'll remove obstacles rather than building strength). But you just disregard what doesn't match your needs.

[Moonrise]

Basically, for me, I dont put alot of stock in the mythology, birth death part... simply because it gets too confusing.
If Goddess is pregnant at this time and gives birth to this God, yet the othe God is bonrn at the OTHER solstice only 6 months later, then how does that work?
I think when the original four were celebrated by Witches, Samhain, (beginning of Winter) Imbolc (beginning of spring) Beltaine (beginning of summer) and Lughnasahd (beginning of Autumn) that it was pretty basic, but then you throw in the quarter days and its time to make all the myths somehow work together. IT was alot to wrap my head around in the beginning.
I see Sabbats as celebrations of the position of the sun, change of the seasons, changes in the life cycles.. I dont necessarily get all gung ho on Goddess giving birth to a God etc. Yes, I know that is the basis for much Wiccan beleif, but it doesnt hold true to me, so although they are fun stories, I dont get very involved. And I see the Lunar phase as a time to do magickal workings. They are magickal and not so much celebratory.

I see the stories as a way to visualize the male and female energies.
When you can visualize something, you give life to it...
You are feeding it energy.
Similar to alter tools or visualizing a diety.
When you visualize anything, it is easier to focus on it, and really, all that you are doing through this focusing is bringing out the energy that already lies withing.
Celebrating it on the outside of you, through sabbats etc, helps to manifest your own self on another plane, or level.
ALL of the energies of all dieties or life forms are all interconnected and focusing on these cycles of life etc helps us to tap into those energies and magnify them back out into the universe... (which of course comes back to us. you get back whatever you send out to the universe)
I know this post probably made no sense to anyone, LOL...
If i can think of a way to re-word it at some point in time, I will.
(did i mention I have a fever? LOL,,, k, going to bed.)

[Akasha]

To give my two cents…and this is just my view on it.

The Goddess is vast and universal and the nature of her entirety is beyond our comprehension as humans. We, in our personifications and connections, may view the Moon as being in a Maiden phase, or the climate in a fruitful/mother phase, while on the other side of the planet, it’s winter and more barren. This does not make the entire Goddess herself just a Maiden, Mother, or Crone, but she is all things and all cycles and patterns, continually overlapping and weaving with each other.
This does not make the Maiden, Mother, and Crone irrelevant, not at all, but you can begin to see why it’s not meant to be taken so “literally”.
Focusing on these different aspects of the Goddess is part of experiencing the world around us as we recognize it with our senses, and in other cases helps us direct our goals and understand ourselves.

[Louisvillian]

And what of the mythology and lore about the Horned God? Does that not deserve an equal explanation?

I agree with you that the stories about the Goddess being three personalities shouldn't be taken literally, as she is a divine being, with a nature very different from an anthropomorphic mortal creature.
But, too many times, I see people only explain or talk about the Goddess, and the male half of the divine rarely gets the deserved attention and concentration.

(I'm more of making a point, not so much asking a direct inquiry. :toofless:)

[Moonrise]

For myself, I find the God aspect the most interesting, and is what I am most drawn too.
Even in our coven, Moon of Akelarre, Akelarre being Meadow of the He-Goat... we wanted to make sure he was well represented.
Maybe that's why I leave the birth death part out and dont follow the mythology as much.
I see the God as Lord of Misrule, during this time of year, Lord of Death and Resurrection, of life and giver of live.
I never see him as being dead and reborn... maybe that the He is overcome by his different aspects twice a year.. Lord of Light, Lord of Death... but never gone.
I could never wrap my head around Goddess giving birth to him, and making love to him, kind of like she is the be all and end all and he is 'just' the god...

(i know none of that makes sense... lol)

AT this time of the year, as the wheel turns and we find ourselves at a time when the skies grow grey, the wind blows, the goddess is not so evident as life isnt stirring as it was... to us we feel His presence more than ever, almost more vital and active than in the seasons where reproduction is abound.

For us though, the Sabbats are more to deal with the God, as it is the Solar positioning that is determining it, and at Esbats we concern ourselves more with Goddess.
(though at Sabbats, we do use certain aspects of story telling abstractly to relate to what the seasons are doing.. leaving out the birth/death of the God for the most part.)