Are Atheists Lost?

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[Avalanche]

I think it's just like any other type of person who does that same thing - they don't like differences. I've known people who want the whole world to be Christian, and it really seems to me that some atheists want the whole world to be atheists. Up till now, I could have said every atheist I "know" is a cool person, but apparently, some are just as intolerant as some religious groups.

[RainInanna]

I don't like either of those options. I would say most of the time "rabid atheists" are those who feel angry at organized religions they have been forced to follow that had deep psychological impact on them. Lashing out at that one religion leads to lashing out at all religions as stupid and harmful.

It's unfair to say they they must all be arrogant or have low self-esteem. It is true that some folks are raised to have terrible religious experiences that turn them against the whole concept. My boyfriend happens to be an atheist for that very reason.

[sari0009]

Define lost. If they're stubbornly operating an a huge false dilemma (either bad religion or save the world atheism) to the point that they resemble religious fundamentalists in behavior and tactics, then they're well into some of the problems with logic and behavior usually seen in religious fundamentalists.

There are all sorts of atheists though. For some it's a transitionary stage, some just don't want to be bothered with religion, and so on. They're not all frothing at the mouth.

Rabid atheists more interested in attack...could one be really interested in what Pagans believe and why? Most propobly not. Never know though. Some are predatory and prone to emotional violence/abuse and play out the nice nasty cycle of abuse even online -- some are not willing to heal and who knows what they may be dealing with. Histrionic Personality Disorder, the cycle of abuse...or whatever? Who knows? Some may heal. Everyone's story is different.

You had that mentor because you were willing to listen as much as he was willing to debate, discuss, and consider -- communication obviously takes at least two.

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[sari0009]

You're welcome. Personally, I'm going to stay away from the word "lost" when discussing paths/religions. It seems to beg the question of what is the right path and how right and wrong are determined in such things -- sensitive topic in a world saturated in warring "one and true right way" religions.

[equinox2]

Um, hold on. This discussion so far seems to think that Atheists are unhappy. I’m an Atheist, and a Pagan, and happy. We have an incredible amount of religious diversity here. Perhaps I should describe my beliefs to add yet another color to the tapestry.

As a Naturalistic Pagan, I believe that science is the best way for us to learn about the incredible universe we live in, and that I won’t believe something without good, evidence for it (like evidence from scientific experiments). As such, I don’t believe in any gods except as archetypes. I celebrate the 8 Sabbats with family and loved ones so as to focus on this life – indeed, on this moment. I put the respect for other people ahead of religious differences, and attend a UU church to discuss the paths taken by others.

There is a thread about it in the Paths section, at http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=57102. I don’t think this is a path that most Pagans will identify with, but it works well for me, and can be useful for people (such as reluctant spouses) who find some things they like in Paganism, but don’t think magic is real.

I’m certainly not in a “pit of disbelief”, or unhappy with my path, or anything like that. I’ve been on this path for well over a decade, and it’s been a constant joy, a feeling of finally being able to be honest about what I do and don’t believe, and finally understanding and celebrating nature. I’m not the only one either – talk to any pantheist, or check out the yahoo group in my .sig. Sure, we did just see a nasty person who was an Atheist. It happens, just as some Pagans are nasty at times in their life. For our visitor, I hope he finds what he needs to to make him happy, whether that is Atheism or not is up to him.

Whatever path you take – may the sun warm your face and the ground cradle your feet!

[SSanf]

It is hard to say because it varies so much by individual. I would tend to think, that those who have been raised in a very fundamentalist faith, can become quite angry, when they come to the conclusion, that everything they have been taught to believe is a "lie". I know I was.

Also, I think forcing a child to declare belief in something, that they may not believe at all, is a form of child abuse, that leaves deep scars, that must be healed, before they can move on. Yelling and screaming and anger may be part of the healing.

I wouldn't call them lost so much as recognize, that they are in a stage of their development, where they need to be. Once the anger has dissipated, they can continue in atheism or find other paths, that fit better.

[Twinkle]

Oh come on now. We sound like a bunch of Christians praying over a pagan, hoping they "come to the Lord".

Atheists don't subscribe to religion. So what? They think anyone that does is incorrect in their thinking. So what?

Sometimes they get a cheap thrill attacking others that don't believe as they do. I think we're all guilty of that.

Now...I do believe that our atheist guest was manipulative...and used us for his own agenda...but that's a different issue. It has more to do with him thatn with atheism itself.

[Rudas Starblaze]

i think theres a difference between being lost and simply not giving a ****! :lol:

[sari0009]

Um, hold on. This discussion so far seems to think that Atheists are unhappy

I don't make that assumption, which is why I worded things they way I did (in my second paragraph and the particular false dilemma, for example).

Some are not only unhappy, they bear close resemblances to religious fundamentalist hurting units that are on the constant look out for fresh prey and so on.

Every group takes all kinds.

[sari0009]

Now...I do believe that our atheist guest was manipulative...and used us for his own agenda...but that's a different issue. It has more to do with him thatn with atheism itself.

Agreed!

[Greybird]

I would draw the distinction between informed atheists and uninformed atheists. Informed atheists are awesome. They study the universe, just like we do - they just use fewer tools than we do. They're Marlin Perkins, doing it objectively from a distance, we're Steve Irwin, looking into its eyes. Most pagans could learn a lot from informed atheists and vice-versa.

The problem we had here wasn't with an atheist. The problem we had here was with a jerk - his atheism didn't have anything to do with it.

[Annest]

Atheist or religious, there will always be thoose who will bash others who don´t agree. Can´t judge all atheists allike just because we´ve encountered one bad apple.

Anne

[SSanf]

Youtube actually has several informed and intelligent atheists. He pretended to want to know. But it was just pretense.

[BlueMoon13]

..... If they're stubbornly operating an a huge false dilemma (either bad religion or save the world atheism) to the point that they resemble religious fundamentalists in behavior and tactics, then they're well into some of the problems with logic and behavior usually seen in religious fundamentalists.



I think that's a fine way to describe what we've witnessed here within the past few days. An atheist zealot, whose expressed attitudes towards other humans beings who happen to have, not just different beliefs, but any beliefs at all, troubles me. That individual and attitudes such as his show at least if not more disdain for his fellow human beings than any "fundie" of any ilk I've ever personally encountered. Kind of defeats his "purpose",no?

Is'nt it odd how many atheists have such a superior attitude towards persons of faith? I believe those who have that superior attitude and put SO MUCH time and energy into proving there is no God are actually hoping to find someone who can prove to them there IS a God-much like Harry Houdini debunked so many false mediums while searching for a genuine medium to communicate with his dead mother.

Memo to rabid atheists: Faith is faith, and fact is fact. Try reading the definations of each a few hundred thousand times, and just maybe the difference will sink into those arrogant heads of yours.:idea:


I would draw the distinction between informed atheists and uninformed atheists......


The problem we had here wasn't with an atheist. The problem we had here was with a jerk - his atheism didn't have anything to do with it.
Bravo :clapping:

[H.P. Dolamite]

Oh come on now. We sound like a bunch of Christians praying over a pagan, hoping they "come to the Lord".

Atheists don't subscribe to religion. So what? They think anyone that does is incorrect in their thinking. So what?

Sometimes they get a cheap thrill attacking others that don't believe as they do. I think we're all guilty of that.

Now...I do believe that our atheist guest was manipulative...and used us for his own agenda...but that's a different issue. It has more to do with him thatn with atheism itself.

Exactly.

This thread just screams Fundamentalism.

Lets just get over it already, ok?

No sense beating the dead horse.

[sari0009]

I think that's a fine way to describe what we've witnessed here within the past few days. An atheist zealot, whose expressed attitudes towards other humans beings who happen to have, not just different beliefs, but any beliefs at all, troubles me. That individual and attitudes such as his show at least if not more disdain for his fellow human beings than any "fundie" of any ilk I've ever personally encountered. Kind of defeats his "purpose",no?

Is'nt it odd how many atheists have such a superior attitude towards persons of faith? I believe those who have that superior attitude and put SO MUCH time and energy into proving there is no God are actually hoping to find someone who can prove to them there IS a God-much like Harry Houdini debunked so many false mediums while searching for a genuine medium to communicate with his dead mother.

Memo to rabid atheists: Faith is faith, and fact is fact. Try reading the definations of each a few hundred thousand times, and just maybe the difference will sink into those arrogant heads of yours.:idea:

It was good to make a few points about certain behaviors being mirrored between some members of supposedly totally unrelated paths.

I'm glad the topics of logic, motivation, and behavioral patterns came up.

Pesonally, I'd rather focus on pluralistic learning (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=11%2f16%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999), common ground, (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=8%2f6%2f2005+23%3a59%3a59.999)and civil duties (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=6%2f26%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999)that make our various paths, whatever they may be, and the world a healthier place.

[AuroraWillow]

I don't think so at all - a fanatical devotion to something, or even taking an evangelical position in any religion, even in atheism, doesn't mean that someone is not able to find thier way. Attitudes and actions like this show a person who is firm, not weak, in what they believe; so firm in fact, they believe everyone would be better off just like them. Evangellical assholes are really not much more, no matter what position they are preaching.
Take Dawkins for example - I think it would be misguided to assume that he is a closet theist waiting to see the light.

Admittedly as an atheist I do feel somewhat lost, but that is a result of my own spiritual stretching, and not simply because I'm an atheist.

[BlueMoon13]

Pesonally, I'd rather focus on pluralistic learning (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=11%2f16%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999), common ground, (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=8%2f6%2f2005+23%3a59%3a59.999)and civil duties (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=6%2f26%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999)that make our various paths, whatever they may be, and the world a healthier place.

True. I suspect there are far more things all people have in common once you get past the differences.

[Jolixte]

:( I'm not lost. I'm sitting in my living room actually.

[Malcolm]

I don't really see how they could be with their lovely science and GPS stuff...:hahugh:

[cheddarsox]

atheists don't believe in deity. Let's not confuse that with anti-religion types, a totally different thing.

I know anti-religious theists. They believe that there is deity, but hate the practice of any religion, and rail against it.

I know atheists who don't give a rat's patootie if people have a religion, even many who practice a religion themselves without believing in a deity. They find value and enrichment in practicing, ritual, etc.

And then there are some anti-religious atheists. They don't believe, and they don't want any one else to either.

Personally, I don't think anyone gets an afterlife...so in that sense, non-believers, haters, or whatever, don't fare any worse in the long run than anyone else. However, anyone who uses hate, anger etc as their primary motivator in life, I would suggest, those people lose something in the short run.

I believe, and teach my kiddos to find something they believe is worthwhile, and get behind it and live positively, this is usually more productive and pleasant than living negatively.

So...if what some atheists support is reason, logic, etc. then I would suggest they work in support of that, rather than against what they see as lack of reason.

Instead of "hey you idiots, why don't you give up your fantasies" maybe try..."this is how I see things, and this is why, have you ever thought of it this way?"

The atheists that I enjoy spending time with live their beliefs positively, not try to crush others beliefs negatively. And I've learned, considered, and changed alot due to that kind of interaction.

cheddar

[dragoncrone]

Personally I believe that atheists are on the same journey as the rest of us, they just tend to carry less baggage.

[HadouKen24]

Atheism, like theism, is just a philosophical position regarding the existence of deity. There are as many kinds of atheisms, and as many kinds of atheists, as there are theists.

Some atheists have lost there way, true. But so have some theists.

As far as evangelical, outspoken atheists go, there are several kinds. Yes, there are the ones issuing bitter screeds against all religion, but they're not the only kind. Richard Dawkins doesn't seem to be of that sort. I disagree strongly with him, but I can respect that he is at the very least intelligent and has a good level of understanding of religion.

If it ever comes down to a major cultural conflict, I'm sure Dawkins and I would end up on opposite sides. But I would hope that it would not be a conflict motivated by animus and dislike. IMO, there are few things as pleasant as a discussion between disagreeing parties based on respect and seeking understanding rather than outrage.

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[Theres]

as a former atheist/agnostic, i'd have to say no, atheists are not "lost".

most true atheists have made a conscious decision about their beliefs, and i respect that. they are not atheist by default, and so it's not right to assume that they are atheists because they haven't yet found a religion! nor is it fair to say that those without a theist belief are lost.
when i was an atheist i was quite happy to be so, and was not looking for a religious path. that was a very conscious decision, and one i made no more lightly than my later decision to believe in the gods. so i was no more lost then than i am 'found' now.

[Philosophia]

Atheists aren't lost. I know a couple and they are wonderful people with an open mind about religion and spirituality (more so than some with a "religion").

[Harmony Aurore]

We have recently been exposed to an avid atheist who was verbal in his rebuttal about our beliefs and who we are. Hopefully we can discuss this instead of that person and their actions. That having been said, I have had some extensive PM conversations with others here, and I would like to ask a question of the group.

My question; are atheists lost? Or rather, are the "rabid" atheists who go looking for people to attack (such as our recent guest) really trying to find out why it is that we believe as we do? I know that at a time in my life, I followed a different path, then I went to atheism, and continued my search. You could almost say that our recent guest could have been me many years ago. I won't say that I "saw the light" or anything like that. I had a mentor who at first debated with me late nights at a quiet pub, and then began to teach me. Slowly I crawled out of the pit of disbelief to where I am today. Looking back, if I hadn't had a mentor like I did, one who was willing to debate, discuss, and consider not only the things he believed, but what others believed as well, I wouldn't be the person I am today. So I stand by my question, was our recent guest, and others like him searching because they are having so hard a time finding something they can understand and believe in, and their low self-esteem is only causing them to lash out at those who are staunch in their beliefs, trying to feel better about themselves, or are they simply arrogant people who refuse to accept that there are things that cannot be explained by science, and must be taken on faith?

What say you?

I think we're all ientitled to our own beliefs. There are many perspectives to look at the world from, and I think that most of them are pretty valid. Infact, most beliefs interact and mesh with each other. I think Atheism is another perspective... another set of beliefs.
I don't think anyone is "lost" in their beliefs. They are lost when they are unsure of them or looking to find what they are believing... but not lost within their beliefs.

Someone may be a lost cause when they go out of their way to bait people, or attack others based on their beliefs... but that's another subject altogether.

I don't think that there's much to really discuss here. We're treading on a thin line into becoming lost causes.

[Avalanche]

Atheists aren't lost. I know a couple and they are wonderful people with an open mind about religion and spirituality (more so than some with a "religion").

I know some atheists like that too. They gave me free candy and invited me to their Darwin party, even after me and the person I was with told them we were religious.

[Shanti]

I'm an atheist!
I'm very happy and secure too!
I didn't choose my path because I was lost and searching.
I am on my path because it is my correct path and exactly where I should be.
Its a personal knowing just like any faith.
I don't deny others have deity. I don't need too because I believe there are many spirit realms just like there are many galaxies.
The spirit realm I am connected too just happens to not have any deity's and I am very happy with my spiritual connection. :)

Oh and theres people of different calibers in all faiths!

[Amelserru_halqu]

We have recently been exposed to an avid atheist who was verbal in his rebuttal about our beliefs and who we are. Hopefully we can discuss this instead of that person and their actions. That having been said, I have had some extensive PM conversations with others here, and I would like to ask a question of the group.

My question; are atheists lost? Or rather, are the "rabid" atheists who go looking for people to attack (such as our recent guest) really trying to find out why it is that we believe as we do? I know that at a time in my life, I followed a different path, then I went to atheism, and continued my search. You could almost say that our recent guest could have been me many years ago. I won't say that I "saw the light" or anything like that. I had a mentor who at first debated with me late nights at a quiet pub, and then began to teach me. Slowly I crawled out of the pit of disbelief to where I am today. Looking back, if I hadn't had a mentor like I did, one who was willing to debate, discuss, and consider not only the things he believed, but what others believed as well, I wouldn't be the person I am today. So I stand by my question, was our recent guest, and others like him searching because they are having so hard a time finding something they can understand and believe in, and their low self-esteem is only causing them to lash out at those who are staunch in their beliefs, trying to feel better about themselves, or are they simply arrogant people who refuse to accept that there are things that cannot be explained by science, and must be taken on faith?

What say you?

I'm an atheist of sorts. I can be considered extremely arrogant because I think anything that we cannot currently explain can at some point be quantified.

What else would we use to define the arrogance of the atheist, or me for instance? Am I arrogant because I won't acknowledge the gods and laws of others? Am I arrogant because I think my way is better than that of others? Or could it be that I find the whole thing amusing as can be? My arrogance is personal. I do not stop anyone from pursuing anything unless I see it is going to do them (or others, especially me) harm. I see that everyone is entitled to find what measure of peace they can in this cold cruel world. So I'll just try and keep my arrogance to myself, besides arrogance applied is as much a form of fundamentalism as any religion and I know what damage those religious types did to me.

As to am I lost? No I just appear that way; I wander randomly doing what I desire, laughing and dancing along my merry way. To others I appear to be mad, a lost child doomed because there is no one to hold my hand, but is there a man more free than a wandering child?

Ah well, just a few of my little thoughts... ignore me if you will, pay attention if you want. Both are equally fine alternatives.

[Vincent Verthaine]

You know what,I love atheists.
And you know why?
To many of you are so are so egotistical that you think your that your beliefs are the only ones that matter.
I know that I am opening myself to a world of hate,but I've never given a shit before.
The TRUTH must be told.

Some of you hate atheists because they refuse to kiss you asses(same reason som e orf you hate discordians).
They refuse to believe in what you believe in,and some of you despise them for that.
Hades,I know I'm about to catch some serious heat,but then again,when has that ever stopped my from telling TRUTH.

I absolutely love atheists.
(I'm not one myself,of course,because I love the HEAD BOSS LADY IN CHARGE OF THE MULTIVERSE,ERIS,But I also realize that is only MY OPINION.)

They have the unmitigated gall to ask to one question that many pagans hate to hear,and that's "PROVE IT".


Recently I had someone here tell me here that they are upset that I had the nerve to wave my middle finger at the "GODS".
That they are going to put me on ignore.
I'm glad that they did.

If anyone cannot accept that I refuse to kiss any of your deities,or any of your asses for that matter,I don't need any of ya.
I've manage to survived one major disaster,and the death of my wife,without any of your help.
Sorry if that pisses some of you off(and I know it does).

I don't give a rats ass about anyones beliefs.

I've been seeing some really screwed up responses toward atheists some of you have espoused here.

I have just one question to ask.

And before you line up to try tear me apart (which of course I know is inevitable,but it isn't the first time I've been crucified) answer me this:
What gives you the right?

Why are you are your beliefs valid,and everyone elses isn't.

Because there are plenty of people here who believe that they are the only ones who are right( and THAT,is the burden of havibf beliefs),while they say up and down all over this forum that"we have a right to believe in what ever we want want they they still think theres is the "only WAY.
Don't belive me?
Check out what I just went though in the "Heavy Metal" thread in "Just Pagan", and judge for yourself.
The question shouldn't be "Are atheists lost?"
It should be:
"How far up some of you have your heads up up your asses that you can't accept oppposing veiwpoints."

Let the crucifixion of Vincent begin.

[Shadow Dreamer]

...

[sarabethv]

Ullr, not to worry. You made it very clear, as you have in other postings, that you are looking for discussion and maybe learning about someone else. I'm not sure what set Vincent off, but I really don't think it was your question, perhaps he just needed to rant and chose this thread to do so? I too love discussion and look forward to some soul searching.

Vincent, I'm sorry that you are feeling attacked. Look back over threads, you will see that I don't attack others, although I will defend myself. There are indeed narrow minded people here, but then that is natural considering that there are humans here. There are also good generous and gentle folk here. Some I have been talking to for years, and will most likely never meet but still consider friends. So calm down, put in your two cents and lets have a discussion.

Back on track (before Ullr pulls his hair out).

I don't think Atheists are lost any more than any other group of humans. There has been some research on the theory that humans are hard wired to "believe" whether that belief is in a god, godess, nature, science or not believing. As humans, we may need to have some set of structures that define who and what we are.

It took me many years and I don't think I am at the end of my journey yet. I don't worship or pray to a diety. I try to live "right" by that I mean I will attempt to do what I perceive as being the right thing even though it may not be in my best interest. I do not see myself as atheist because I acknowlege that there may be a diety or two. I also (and this may seem strange) don't think of myself as atheist because I respect other people's belief in a diety and acknowlege the possibility (because after all everyone's beilefs are just as valid as mine). If you want to believe in the flying spaghetti thing, well go right ahead, and if you want to tell me about it in an open discussion, I'll listen. If you invite me to one of your ceremonies or rituals, I'll go and participate. (might be fun, and I might even learn something). In fact it saddens me that I have never been in a position where I could grow a pumpkin patch to see if mine was worthy enough.

[RhiannynWildseed]

What I see when dealing with people like the not-so-dearly-departed YouTube person (don't want to mention any names now), and this is only my own personal observation and opinion, is that these people, the ones that question others' beliefs and claim they only want to know more about them and understand them only to proceed to tear them apart, are going through a...for lack of a better term...crisis of faith.

Now I could be wrong, but I've experienced this recently with many other people in the past few months (and days). It's seems like these folks come and question others about their beliefs. They listen (or appear to listen) to what they're told, but then they proceed to tear the other peoples' beliefs apart. They ask for opinions, but then they don't like the opinions they are given. I've started to theorize that what the problem MAY be is that they are questioning others and have an idea in their head of what they WANT to hear. But then they don't hear it, and it's almost like it causes them to start to doubt their own beliefs, so then they get angry and that's when they attack. It seems like they have a need to attack and tear down others' beliefs to make themselves feel better and to silence that little voice of doubt within themselves that has reared its ugly head.

Like I said, it's only my opinion, and I know I'm not articulating it well because I'm really tired right now. I can verbally explain it, but trying to put it into type is difficult. So I'm just going to rest my tired mind and leave it at this. If you understand me, lol, good for you. If not...sorry!