Question on the deaths of three Wiccan/Pagan people....

[Melysande]

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,53%7E493637,00.html

True, the article seems to be an attempt by the the journalist to indicate that role-playing games and Wiccan/Pagan beliefs are what led to their deaths. (And it annoys me greatly. Yes, I know it tries to seem impartial by putting in words of a living Wiccan, but still. The fact that it uses this angle at all is enough to irritate me.)

What interests me even more is the murder weapon. It's a shotgun. They never said it was a sawed-off shotgun, so I'm assuming that it was full-length. And there were no signs of a struggle. But yet, the article says that the man shot his girlfriend and his friend in the back of the head before shooting himself.

How'd he do that? Could he have done that? I mean, could he have held the end in his mouth and pulled the trigger with his toes? (Saw a Moonlighting episode asking just this question.)

[Earthcup]

Yup. I believe Richard Farnsworth, actor and stuntman, comitted suicide this way a few years ago. It's definitely possible.

[Melysande]

But was this guy tall enough?

**has been watching waaaay too much Columbo**

[Earthcup]

Shotguns aren't all that long and the trigger isn't exactly located on the butt, of the shotgun :lol:. So yeah, it would probably be easier if he was standing I'd think.....

*watches Law & Order...:D*

[Melysande]

**grins** Knew I came to the right people to ask.

Said they fell in a circle. Wonder if the circle had them faced any particular direction.

[Man/Wolf]

Mely, you have a PM!

[Melysande]

I mean, the women were shot in the back of the head.

I dunno. There's just something tweaking my internal Wrong-o-meter. Can't help it. They were in an isolated place, and there was only one sleeping bag. Why only one? Did they get there and happen upon the owner of the sleeping bag? If they'd decided to get friendly with this person, maybe share some drinks or other substances. And then they decided to worship and it wigged the person there out enough to do them all while they were in deep alcohol- or drug-induced sleep?

[Azure]

Yup, my wrong-o-meter went off when I read that too. But it is possible - I believe Kurt Cobain committed suicide in a similar fashion. I've shot any number of shotguns, and I think I could probably manage it if I were determined to kill myself (I'm certainly not). And I'm a pretty small girl here.

But it will be interesting to see how this develops. . .

[Melysande]

Hopefully, it DOES develop. I'd hate to think they were just going to rule it a suicide and leave it at that, thinking that a few more flakes are dead, oh well.


(Yes, Papa. I think she might be grocery shopping, so I left a message.)

[Melysande]

**goes very pale** Well, leave it to the Internet to show me that a picture is indeed worth a thousand words. Or speechlessness.

Found a site that has crime scene photos on it. Very, very, VERY graphic ones.

Yanno, I had put that link in here, and I just feel it's wrong to share these pictures. So I've deleted it.

[Twig]

It can be done. :( Can we put that part to rest please?

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[Earthcup]

Lying in a circle? That does seem suspicious.

I don't think I'd have much control over where I land if I were standing and I'm not sure I could do it lying or sitting. It's possible I suppose....

Actually it sounds more like they were all shot by someone else if they were in a circle. hmmm...

[Melysande]

**nods** Most definitely, Twig. Just saw that quite plainly. **still feels queasy**

[Melysande]

**nods** The article was saying that it might have been some kind of ritual they were doing. **shrugs** Dunno.

[Earthcup]

Unfortunately you can find almost anything on the net, as my very morbid sister keeps reminding me.....

[Melysande]

**nods** My dad is a crime scene investigator. What I saw tonight at that site was what he would be responsible for photographing. **shakes head** Gonna mosey out of this thread now. Must buy new pair of rose-tinted sunglasses in the Cloud & Tree. There's a gnome in there selling them at discounted prices.

[Phoenix Blue]

I'll probably never say this again, Mely. . . but if that's your father's job, I feel sorry for him.

[AradiaSupernova]

what gets me is that the report is right in one respect. if it was someone else, wouldn't have the others ran? if someone shot someone next to me, I know I'd be bolting as fast as my legs could carry me.

[Earthcup]

not if you weren't concious *shrug* It's just plain weird. I don't like it...

[Melysande]

You'd only try to escape if you were awake and coherent and not incapacitated. And if you had time to escape. And if you even wanted to. Which is the possibility that just strike me as being wrong.

I mean, Phoenix and Honor are very good friends of mine. They're happy and in love and all that good crap. And they have charming wonderful me for a friend (angelic expression). So, if you were happy and in love, and had good companionship, a nice religious outlook, a cool fantasy-game life, and apparently a nice, scenic outlook on a nice, fun vacation.... would you want to die?

[Earthcup]

Nope. A beach would not be my first choice for suicide either. It was a public beach right? In a touristy area?

*thought about this thorouhly in the past*

[Yvonne Belisle]

I know this is morbid but could you pm me the links to the photos. I don't know why I want to see them but it may be that I have been reading everything I can on certain types of crimes trying to understand them. Also with seeing the pictures I can stop the ones I have in my head of friends that could wind up in that type of situation.

[Azure]

Yup. still all twitchy about it. I don't really want to see the photos - but my sixth sense is just all wonky. I suspect if they investigate, they'd find something funny in it all.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Melysande
Yanno, I had put that link in here, and I just feel it's wrong to share these pictures. So I've deleted it.

Thanks. It's not appropriate here :)

[Myst]

Could've been a suicide pact. They could've been drunk and depressed. We'll never know what motivates people to do this stuff. *sigh* Weird ain't it.

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Myst
Could've been a suicide pact. They could've been drunk and depressed. We'll never know what motivates people to do this stuff. *sigh* Weird ain't it.

*nods* Precisely, Myst. Doesn't matter how rich, how happy, how successful you appear to people outside you. Others can never know just what's going on inside you.

*shivers* This it way to close to home for me. I'm not that active in the Denver community, but I do know some people. Not those three, but I know the woman from Wings that they quoted.

[Myst]

Exactly.

Cobain comes to mind.

Heck people you know who you'd never realize ever feel that depressed come to mind!

[xjsjaglvr]

Whenever the "pagan" angle can be introduced when bad things happen it is there. Let's see what else did they have in common....hmmm pizza, drivers licenses, pets, brushed their teeth, known oxygen breathers. Damn that must be it! They were known to breath oxygen frequently, usually in combination with other gasses such as Nitrogen and Co 2. Users of these gases freguently call this combination AIR. See air breathing is the cause of this not Wicca. Why didn't that get mentioned?

[Phoenix Blue]

:p Exactly, xjs. And you know, they probably consumed dihydrogen oxide, too. . . they should have known they were taking their lives into their hands, there.

Seriously, folks like to say, "this happened, then that happened, therefore this must have caused that." That's a fallacy, but it's one that's awful tempting for a lot of folks who would rather not reason their way through the entire situation.

It's sad that a lot of people who are suffering from depression don't get the help they need. But that help starts in two places: first, it takes a friend or just someone who's observant to ask, "Are you okay?" And second, it takes everyone not treating mental disorders like they're something to be ashamed of.

[WandererInGray]

Interestingly enough....the case was mentioned on my local news this morning, and not one peep about their religion. Yay for my local news! :)

[Azure]

Obviously someone there has a bit on integrity.

[Sequoia]

I'd be curious to see those photos, too. . . PM me if you like.

*sighs* it's hard to imagine why they'd die like that. . . I don't think, even if I wanted to die, that I could stand there, see a friend of mine get shot, and not move. Something isnt' right here. I don't feel connected to them at all but still there's something not right there. We're not getting the whole story. *sighs* I really think there's someone else involved. . . it just doesn't sound right. . .

bah. Blaming it on paganism and role-playing games, of all things . . jeeze, these are popular scapegoats. Many more christian or "goodie two shoes" or otherwise "perfect" people commit suicide, commit crimes, or die, every day. But you never hear people going "well, he was christian, and was obcessed with praying to god over sins and all. . . thought that lady he killed was satan and going to hell. . . " *sighs* it's all so stupid, stupid stupid STUPID!