Here's a deep one for you.

[Storm]

Chicken or the egg?

I am currently reading Dancing With Devas(Telesco). She states in there that thought energy is very powerfull and has form and we could create an entity by repeat thought. For instance the child terrified of a monster may create that monster through his fear. (I wonder if that is how the child who needs a friend aquires an imaginary pal?) She goes on to explain how Satan was just an image the Christians painted over the woodland god of the pagans. And that the Church clung on to the image of him and every thought and mention of his name reinforces his existence. Wiccans don't believe in Satan. I am not Christian, never was. But I believe Satan exists as well as other dieties(included the christian God, for whom I have great respect). But now I am back to wondering something I have questioned for a long long time. Did the Gods give birth to us..or did we give birth to them through our thought form energies??

Any insight?

By the way

Merry Meet all, I am new here!

Storm Thunderhawke

[Theres]

"if God didn't exist, would it be neccessary to create him?"
to answer your question, i think both.
i think that we were given birth by the creative energy of the universe (whatever that may be). we in turn gave birth to the familiar names of mythology in order to put a handle on that creative energy.
through our continued contact with them in prayer, ritual, etc., we have actually manifested these thoughtforms, as you referred to them.
so it really isn't a 'chicken or egg' thing. it is a 'creator', and then the chicken and egg (and everything else).

or not...

[Storm]

So...perhaps they need us as much as we need them? I really hope the thought form creation is not as easy as she makes it sound.....I could really create some gruesome demons. EEeek. I am making light of it but it really freaks me out. As if the other plain isn't complex enough. 6 billion thinking persons on the planet... I really hope it isn't that easy.

[Myst]

The idea is that the entity exists somewhere and each time someone puts stock in believing in them they project the energy that is associated with that entity. Also note that if you don't possibly believe something can exist (such as fairies, dragons, spirit guides, spirits, etc.) it is very unlikely that you'll ever see or experience one.

As far as I'm concerned, no Gods didn't create us. They exist as energy within and without us, and we've given names to the archetypes to work with associated energies and communicate with divinity. If you want to learn about creating egregores or fetches (entities you make out of energy for specific tasks), try Summoning Spirits by Konstantinos, or Witchcraft : Theory and Practice by Ly de Angeles.

[Azure]

Actually, Satan has Old Testament origins, where he's basically God's prosecuting attorney and chief tormenter of YHVH's chosen's victims - check out the book of Job.

There's an excellent book by Elaine Pagels on his origins called "Satan."

My personal thought is that we don't so much create spiritual energies as call to those that fit our needed descriptions that already exist, although perhaps they aren't yet known to others, or are under other names.

[maya]

I guess my thoughts fit in with Greenman's. I do believe that there is a universal energy/being but that it's so forgein to us that we can't see it as thus. Therefore, we have shaped gods and goddesses in the image we think of them by giving them our power of belief and therefore connecting us to the greater being. Of course, I also think we are ALL apart of that greater force as we all exist on the energy from it. I don't think the god of the Christians is that god, nor do I feel like any god we name is it, but rather a personification of some aspect of it. I do think that the gods need our power of belief to exist (to us) in this world.

~ Maya

[Keron]

hehe... if it was that easy my sister's HuGe teddy bear would have dissected me about seven years ago. I don't know, I just don't like it. Never liked it. haha.

I've always felt kinda bad about taking and receiving but never giving back to the Goddess and the God... I light incense, herbs, candles-- but I've always wondered why they would need such... well, paltry things. Kind of. I know they are tools for intent e.t.c., it is simply because I have always had an image of deities as all-powerful and overwhelming-- what need have they for us? Belief is another matter... or perhaps the deities are amused by us. Or even the relationship between the elves and the humans in Mercedes Lackey's books... when the elves depend on humans for inspiration and change... but then again, how would the gods fit into that image?

Rambling on like a fool again. Never mind me *nasty voice whispers "she's schizophrenic*. *nasty voice grins*. Keron blinks and looks around. *nasty voice cackles*

[akathesia]

I'm with Myst to some extent...I'm more inclined to think of the gods/goddesses as Archetypes....and therefor they are given fuel by ourselves through our religions, myths and everyday experiences

[Felidae]

Actually I've believed this for years.

I stumbled across this theory years ago when I was in High School (I'm 38 now) in a - believe it or not - John D. McDonald mystery that I had borrowed from my mother.

The main character goes on a wild journey through the mortal coil and the Astral Planes with an Angel. At one point, they actually meet with a "Witch" in their travels through the worlds religions.

Very inventive, amusing, and thought provoking book. Unfortunately, I forget the title.

In my view, this explains a lot! Especially why Christians are so all-fired fervent that EVERYBODY subscribe to their belief system: the nmore believers, the more solid the "thoughtform". The more detractors that shake their groups belief... :D

Hopefully, you get the reasoning here.

Now it's time for some illiterate Newbie to totally misinterpret what I'm saying and make an ass of themselves in the attempt to refute my statements. I would suggest they look up the definition of "refute" before they start.

Yes, I know that there is some Meow factor here and this is unusual for me, but I've had a bad week and my toes hurt...

[Felidae]

Sorry about that last bit, once again, bad week.

What I'm trying to say is that, yes, in MY view there is some creative force, energy, whatever you want to call it, but our beliefs and, therefore , thoughts, more or less shape that force into dieties that we can grasp.

And yes, I do believe that, subliminally, all humans SUSPECT that this is the case, and that is why it is so important to most religions (not just Christians) that they gather as many believers as possible.

One can see the correlation in the Coven, etc., as most Wiccans (even Solitaries like myself) espouse the opinion that Coven magick is stronger than Solitary magick.