The Middle Path: is Wicca really BTW vs. SRW?

[Dawa Lhamo]

I'm sorry to pick on Twinkle, but this post is *hardly* alone. Several times, I've noticed a trend in this forum, to diametrically oppose British Traditional Wicca vs. the most eclectic, Gods-aweful example of... for lack of a better term... "paperback paganism"... or even on the opposite end, to diametrically oppose healthy, eclectic, rational, solitary Wiccans vs. the most stodgy and backward example of authoritarianist Wicca. And I, for one, think that this does a disservice to a whole lot of Wicca out there.
I would agree to this up to a point. But we're talking about Wicca here....and there is a huge problem with Wicca....as a friend of mine said, Wicca has become like Kleenex....a generic term.

We have some Wiccans from the Brit Trads that work very hard, take both book learning and personal experience....blood, sweat and tears to understand the Mysteries and become initiated and earn the the Title Wiccan.

Then we have some people that read a SRW book and call themselves High Priestess.

IMO the current trend is that Wicca has lost it's integrity, has been watered and dumbed down to reach the masses...and has therefore lost it's intellectualism.You know, I agree with this in part, but I feel compelled to point out, that it's not an either/or situation. You don't have just BTWs vs. SRWs... There are plenty of people and groups and traditions in between. Some more, some less balanced.

My tradition has no verifiable lineage, and we certainly have a few deviations from Brit trads (at least, what a non-BTW-initiate can know about the practices of Brit trads), yet we've been practicing since the 70's and we've managed to be, for the most part, pretty balanced... we've got a ton of intellectual, academic-type learning, but a lot of experiential, practical based training, too...

And we're hardly the only one's like that...

Heck, I know a woman who was once a student of SRW (though she says she took what was genuinely useful and dropped the rest), and her group, and the tradition that she's creating, are exceptionally rigorous about both intellectual pursuits and intuitive ones. Degrees are certainly not given lightly, and it takes a long road of hard work to progress. I worked with her group for several months, and while it wasn't quite for me, I still respect her immensely and consider her coven to be family to me.

So that's why I'm starting a thread on this. Not to stir up things, but perhaps to even them out. I think that it's this middle contingent of traditions and practitioners who really get ignored a lot of the time, especially in these hot-button arguments.

So, anyone else? *cricket, cricket*

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo,
1* eclectic Wiccan.

[RainInanna]

You have an interesting point. Often the focus is so heavy on "what the traditionalists are screwing up" and "what the fluffybunny eclectics are screwing up" that we forget to appreciate the nuances of those many in between.

Does Wicca *really* have problems? Being the most popular Pagan religion, and being the one that provides a worthwhile, satisfying spiritual to the majority of Pagans regardless of which end of the spectrum they are on? I think you raise a good point in suggesting that we could all do with a little less focus on what's wrong and more on what's working well for each individual.

[Philosophia]

I think Wicca is like every other religion in the world, in terms of image. All have their extreme polar opposites and most seem to look at one side without glancing in the middle. Its the two (or more) extremes that fuel the stereotypes and its usually the ones more publicly seen in media.

[Elderbush]

Yay! I have to admit that I do think there is a tendency to describe Wiccans in polarized terms when the majority of Wiccans that I know fall towards the center. I know that there are Wiccans that are at both extremes - I've met them and try to avoid them because they are uncomfortably alike although they'd be horrified to be accused of that - but still, they are not the majority in my experience. I am glad of that!

[RainInanna]

Even beyond how the extremes are more vocal and thus more likely to be noticed by the mainstream public, I think those of us within Paganism and Wicca focus perhaps too much on those extremes. I know I have certainly been guilty of complaining of both! My mistake has been staring so hard at one end as to miss everything in between.

It reminds me of one coworker I complain about sometimes who is the first to say something nasty about a person regardless of what they've done. She gets so focused on sharing a nasty comment as to miss the good of the situation and/or her own mistakes. Guess what, I do it too. Thanks for the reminder.

[Dawa Lhamo]

lol... and usually in those arguments, I take one side or the other, too. It really is easier to counter an extreme example... ^_^

Elderbush, I agree. The majority of those I know do fall in the middle. Now it's anecdotal, sure, and I'm sure that I consciously and subconsciously cut myself off from meeting those at the very far extremes, but still, there's a substantial number of us "middle folk"...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Tanya]

I'm glad this has been brought up. I shudder to touch this forum anymore. I call myself Wiccan, in that I believe these things, but my practice comes from my own family's tradition, my husband's BTW background and our own intuitive and academic studies. I am tired to DEATH of being called "not real."
I question WHY we have to go after eachother with fine toothed combs looking for Wiccy heretics in a world so full of REAL problems

[taijiya]

I question WHY we have to go after eachother with fine toothed combs looking for Wiccy heretics in a world so full of REAL problems

One of my covenmates summed it up this way: "They behave so badly, because the stakes are so small." :lol: :fpraise:

Seriously, the drive to sort everything into the most absolute of polar opposites troubles me. It does seem that the ones that get the most attention are those who are both most vocal and most extreme, and that many times the more moderate voices are drowned out in the crossfire.

Oh, look--a soapbox!

I think, culturally (and I'm speaking of American culture here, though it certainly isn't limited to this country) we're in a time of very heavy polarisation--absolutist, black-or-white type thinking is a dominant model now, seemingly more strongly than in the recent past, and the media certainly helps drive that message. (I work in a media-driven industry, so I do speak that from experience.) Things that are "extreme" are what catch the attention, and that's as true of paganism as it is of anything else. It's easy to overlook those who go about quietly living their craft when there are wildly entertaining examples of extremism to focus on.

Now I'll get off my box, and climb back in it. _inabox_


Embracing my inner heretic,

[Ben Gruagach]

Excellent thread with lots of great ideas worth serious attention!

I agree with the statement that it seems there is a general tendency in society (at least in the United States) to be absolutist about things, to put things into just two stereotypically opposing sides. Perhaps the emphasis within Wicca on the idea of polarity lends itself to encouraging this sort of thinking. It's definitely something that we'll have to deal with as a community or else we'll end up like the other spiritual communities that are being torn apart by petty conflicts.

This discussion reminds me to of Sarah M. Pike's interesting book "Earthly Bodies, Magical Selves" which examines the growth of the Wiccan and more general Pagan community in the United States in the context of how spiritual communities in general tend to grow. She makes some very interesting observations about how often we Pagans get stuck in trying to define ourselves by focussing on what we are not rather than what we are. It's the whole thing where we say, "well, we're not Satanists" or "we're not fluffies" or whatever.

This is a stage that other communities have experienced and those that survived got through it and moved on to focus on what they are. Spending all your time by focussing on what you perceive to be the "other" (or the "enemy" in a way) won't help the community long-term. We've got to learn to strengthen what we are about, celebrate our core, emphasize our common ground. That's how we build long-term community health.

Wiccans don't (and shouldn't) need to be clones for our community to succeed. Perhaps we need to realize that diversity is OK. Gardnerian Wiccans have their clear and robust system, and despite the claims otherwise they're not going to be hurt if a non-Gardnerian Wiccan has different standards or goals or ways of doing things. If the issue is that a particular group doesn't like others speaking on their behalf, the solution is they need to speak up on their own behalf!

The Wiccan community is definitely a diverse one (which I think is one of our greatest strengths) and is very unlikely to sacrifice the diversity and freedom in order to conform to someone's idea of Orthodox Wicca with a rulebook and a Pope. We can dislike that but it's not going to change without what will essentially be a civil war. And is that really what would be best for Wicca and the community?

[Dale Ivarie]

I think its important to note that wicca does not have a dogma or any kind of official church structure. This is a key difference between it and other religions. It is also why some don't consider it a "real" religion. This lack of consistancy gives rise to dissent because people who believe different things use the same label. If one wiccian meets another whose views and actions are distasteful they don't want to share the same label.
I think the solution will be to us terms like ecclectic wiccian, gardinarian etc...the problem is the outside world only hears WICCIAN. I think this problem of who wants to be identified with whom will be around for a very long time, but hey thats the nature of the beast...



Dale

[Elderbush]

I believe that identifying by trad label is a very good one or use the solitary label too. It narrows down what sort of Wicca one practices and eliminates the need to immediately disavow the other person. Possibly we could get past the being different from one another and learn how we are the same.

[KeaErisdottir]

Wiccans don't (and shouldn't) need to be clones for our community to succeed. Perhaps we need to realize that diversity is OK. Gardnerian Wiccans have their clear and robust system, and despite the claims otherwise they're not going to be hurt if a non-Gardnerian Wiccan has different standards or goals or ways of doing things. If the issue is that a particular group doesn't like others speaking on their behalf, the solution is they need to speak up on their own behalf!

The only time the community is hurt by different standards is when those standards are misrepresented. For instance, when a solitary eclectic who has never spent a moment in training with any traditional group, goes on to propose that they are quasi-(fill in tradition), and are then purporting to set themselves up as a teacher of same. This is pure misrepresentation that really should never be tolerated by anyone, but is frequently given a pass because people want to believe the worst when traddies do speak up in their own behalf.


The Wiccan community is definitely a diverse one (which I think is one of our greatest strengths) and is very unlikely to sacrifice the diversity and freedom in order to conform to someone's idea of Orthodox Wicca with a rulebook and a Pope. We can dislike that but it's not going to change without what will essentially be a civil war. And is that really what would be best for Wicca and the community?

But there should, even in a diverse community, be the expectation that the people who do the misrepresentation, and cause the real problems, are not given room to operate with a free hand. Yet, the community is beseiged with trolls and a--holes, and clowns of all sorts who whine, bitch, piss, and moan because their 'diversity' isn't being respected. What is best for Wicca, ultimately, is a lack of tolerance for BS, and a very strong infusion of integrity that raises the expectations of people's behavior so that forums don't become free-for-alls and communities aren't torn apart annually or semi-annually by people whose interests are not in keeping with a sense of community.

I've always supposed that if even 20% of the community simply put its foot down about basic integrity issues, that the change in the overall pagan community would be massive and noticeable. It's also not going to happen, because it is human nature to buy into negative press and act before getting facts in order to make a better decision.

[KeaErisdottir]

I'm sorry to pick on Twinkle, but this post is *hardly* alone. Several times, I've noticed a trend in this forum, to diametrically oppose British Traditional Wicca vs. the most eclectic, Gods-aweful example of... for lack of a better term... "paperback paganism"... or even on the opposite end, to diametrically oppose healthy, eclectic, rational, solitary Wiccans vs. the most stodgy and backward example of authoritarianist Wicca. And I, for one, think that this does a disservice to a whole lot of Wicca out there.You know, I agree with this in part, but I feel compelled to point out, that it's not an either/or situation. You don't have just BTWs vs. SRWs... There are plenty of people and groups and traditions in between. Some more, some less balanced.

I think that this is a trend everywhere. A friend of mine who became a recon took it upon himself, after YEARS of knowing me and knowing the standards that I hold myself to, to basically say that Wicca was nothing but $RW and culture-raping wannabes conjuring out of DJ Conway. It's amazing to have to defend yourself and your beliefs to a person coming at you from left field like that, and even worse to defend yourself from the accusation that you're some airheaded teenager with three books and a Harry Potter wand from Ebay. Yet, when I made it clear what my position was, again, I found myself having to engage in some of the very same kind of discussion that Carla offers up--which is to discuss and 'prove' every little point of minutia that crops up.

Either your cup is full, or it isn't. In fact, many cups are cracked and can carry no water at all, so the point is moot. Most challenges appear to come from people whose cups are empty, and have nothing to contribute.

[Elderbush]

Oh, my. Fortunately, we all get to decide for ourselves what our ethics and beliefs are and exactly what we think is silly or who is misrepresenting themselves or Wicca or if we think others have something to contribute. I am now doubly glad that we don't actually have Wiccan Police to enforce one opinion.

[lamoka]

I believe the Divine shows itself to everyone in the particular way that soul needs to see it.. left, right, middle, fluffy, extreme, eclectic, christian, buddhist, etc. etc. etc. that includes atheist as that is a belief also in something (if the Divine needs to be seen as a philosohpy as opposed to a Deity, if that is what that soul needs, then who am I to say it is invalid) even though they consider it a nothing belief system.. why split hairs.. belief is belief.. it is as individual as a snowflake and as precious simply because it exists..
Namaste

[elizabeth ratliff]

I am rather new to a lot of the teachings, but from my understanding is there are so many branches of the craft, weather it be Alexandrian,cabot,celtic,Dianic, Faery,Eclectic, Gardnerian, Greco-roman,green witchcraft,Seax wica, Solitary, Shamanisim and many others, we all focus on what feels right for us, close to us, is not really about spritural enlightment? so we get close to our inner strenght, light and focus so we can follow the path that is shown to us throught this?
Labels is what tears us apart being boxed into one category or another.
Its the spiritual freedom that we have been granted is what we should be greatful for regardless of labels..

There is no right or wrong, there will always be extremists because that is human nature to cling on to one side rather another but that is also a personal choice and at the same time we have that choice to either follow that or ignore it . The only wrong that there can be is a wrong intent to others.


Elizabeth Ratliff

[RainInanna]

I really agree with most of your post except for that labels tear us apart. I think labels are useful for communicating and ideas. What tears us apart is assuming they're meant to be hurtful or using them to be hurtful.

For instance if someone labels me a witch because I have certain Pagan beliefs they consider common to witches, that's a label that doesn't tear us apart. But if they use it to be nasty and hateful, then what they're doing with the label tears us apart. Edited to add - or if someone labels me a witch because I have those Pagan beliefs, and I *assume* they're trying to be nasty and snap at them, that tears us apart. It's not that they call me a witch that causes problems, it's whether they're just doing it to be nasty or whether I *think* they are and then be nasty back.

If that makes sense...?

[RainInanna]

and I think the distinction is important because I really believe in the power of words as communication tools and the necessity of using them (including labels) insofar as it is useful. In other words, I'm not going to stop using labels like "woman", "person", "pagan", "witch", "mother" to identify myself, because they have real meaning for me. Using those labels is not inherently wrong because I'm just using them to communicate ideas, not judge or condemn.

But labeling does not always equate to judging and condemning. I think there's a problem in assuming it does. Communication is a two way street and all parties involved can shut it down. If I'm just using a label to communicate it won't be helpful if you automatically get offended by it. I have to make myself clear when, why, and how I'm using the label, and that I realize it's just my interpretation. Then hopefully you will also make it clear when, why, and how you would use the label, without worrying that I'm attacking you and you attacking me back.

etc. etc.

[elizabeth ratliff]

You are very right, that was my bad there in not specifying the Labeling part, yes it can be used in a way to be proud of and to insult, you are very right there, what I meant to say as in if you follow a certain path in the craft someone my say well becuase u follow this path you are this that and the next .there for its not real etc and that "labeling " is wrong, no matter what path we follow we shouldnt use lable each other in that respect.

I hope I made it a bit more clear... its morning still for me , too much blood in my coffee stream need to blance that out..

Elizabeth

[Lunacie]

The only time the community is hurt by different standards is when those standards are misrepresented. For instance, when a solitary eclectic who has never spent a moment in training with any traditional group, goes on to propose that they are quasi-(fill in tradition), and are then purporting to set themselves up as a teacher of same. This is pure misrepresentation that really should never be tolerated by anyone, but is frequently given a pass because people want to believe the worst when traddies do speak up in their own behalf.

Wow, apparently we have had some very different experiences in following this path. I have yet to encounter anyone who says it's okay to set yourself up as a teacher of a particular tradition when they are clearly not qualified to do that. I do see a lot of folks wanting to teach when they have learned a few very basic lessons - and some of their lessons are based on misinformation. But I don't seem them claiming to be HPs of a particular tradition and being allowed to get away with that unchallenged.




But there should, even in a diverse community, be the expectation that the people who do the misrepresentation, and cause the real problems, are not given room to operate with a free hand. Yet, the community is beseiged with trolls and a--holes, and clowns of all sorts who whine, bitch, piss, and moan because their 'diversity' isn't being respected. What is best for Wicca, ultimately, is a lack of tolerance for BS, and a very strong infusion of integrity that raises the expectations of people's behavior so that forums don't become free-for-alls and communities aren't torn apart annually or semi-annually by people whose interests are not in keeping with a sense of community.

I've always supposed that if even 20% of the community simply put its foot down about basic integrity issues, that the change in the overall pagan community would be massive and noticeable. It's also not going to happen, because it is human nature to buy into negative press and act before getting facts in order to make a better decision.

I, for one, do put my foot down when I see misinformation online or in person, and speak out to hopefully at least get others to think that what they're hearing may not be the whole truth, or the only truth. And again I don't see nearly the number of online posters who are whining (etc) that you seem to be seeing. That could be a matter of perception in that I'm not looking for those folks so that I can stomp my foot at them.

For a long time I looked up to the idea of community in the Wiccan sense, but I'm not sure we can have what most of us think of us as a "community" when we don't have a communal dogma or structure. That can be seen as both a flaw and a strength, eh?

[RainInanna]

I hope I made it a bit more clear... its morning still for me , too much blood in my coffee stream need to blance that out..

No worries at all, Elizabeth. I hope I didn't seem to be picking on you, you just made me have a thought and it went off on a tangent and I started babbling :)

I'm rather talkative today so don't mind me :D

[elizabeth ratliff]

Not at all, I am trying to talk and meet new people in the craft, my dear friend Shalayne brought me here and has mentored me a bit as where to look for posts and talk to people as to what they think of their paths and learn from those paths and find which one i am drawn to. As a scots lass I have always been drawn to the Celtic mythology though it is not a very clear mythology since it has blended from others and their ways are very hard to find unless you know where to look. I think no matter what path your drawn to, if it feels good for you it is that path that will give you the insight, and strength to find what you seek.
So any comments, ideas are very well appreciated

Elizabeth Ratliff

[KeaErisdottir]

Oh, my. Fortunately, we all get to decide for ourselves what our ethics and beliefs are and exactly what we think is silly or who is misrepresenting themselves or Wicca or if we think others have something to contribute. I am now doubly glad that we don't actually have Wiccan Police to enforce one opinion.

So you're for misrepresentation, the coddling of drama queens and trolls, and supporting destructive behavior? Interesting, because it's not a matter for the 'Wiccan Police' in my world--it's a matter of saying 'no' to whatever they are selling...this week.

It's always a treat to watch calls for basic honesty and personal integrity to be treated like they are calls for the enforcement of one world view. Given the impossibility of that, I see them as a means to erect logical social barriers to people incapable of civil discourse or rational behavior.

[KeaErisdottir]

I am rather new to a lot of the teachings, but from my understanding is there are so many branches of the craft, weather it be Alexandrian,cabot,celtic,Dianic, Faery,Eclectic, Gardnerian, Greco-roman,green witchcraft,Seax wica, Solitary, Shamanisim and many others, we all focus on what feels right for us, close to us, is not really about spritural enlightment?

And that makes up our spirituality. What makes up a religion is the shared belief between two or more people.

Spirituality is personal and private. Religion is a shared experience.


Labels is what tears us apart being boxed into one category or another.

Labels do not tear us apart. In fact, they are necessary so that proper boundaries are maintained. Without boundaries, the likelihood of incidents that offend and tear groups apart increases.


Its the spiritual freedom that we have been granted is what we should be greatful for regardless of labels..

How is a person NOT free to persue their spiritual freedom? By definition, it is a private matter anyway. I am very grateful to not have people telling me how to worship and experience the Divine outside the confines of my religious activities. But I also give up that absolute freedom when I worship with others, because I must; in order to share and experience, I must also be willing to give over control of it to the synergy of the group.


There is no right or wrong, there will always be extremists because that is human nature to cling on to one side rather another but that is also a personal choice and at the same time we have that choice to either follow that or ignore it . The only wrong that there can be is a wrong intent to others.

I would love to know what you classify as extremism, actually.

Apart from that the only 'wrong' is to deny others to think and feel as they wish, whether their thoughts and feelings are in agreement with our own or not. I have seen far many more cases where the thought and feeling was suppressed because it doesn't mesh with the politically correct views of a supposed 'majority'.

[elizabeth ratliff]

Extremisim to me is when someone tell you its this way and no other way and if you dont do it this way then you are condemed to exhile or banishment for that particulat point of view.
Yes we all have the right to choose freely in our beliefs and paths that is wha I was trying to express. And as for labels I guess I didnt express myslef properly., yes labels are good in one as you say but in another sense they can be used to offend and criticise. That is what i was trying to say...

I hope that clears it up a bit more..

[Elderbush]

So you're for misrepresentation, the coddling of drama queens and trolls, and supporting destructive behavior? Interesting, because it's not a matter for the 'Wiccan Police' in my world--it's a matter of saying 'no' to whatever they are selling...this week.

It's always a treat to watch calls for basic honesty and personal integrity to be treated like they are calls for the enforcement of one world view. Given the impossibility of that, I see them as a means to erect logical social barriers to people incapable of civil discourse or rational behavior.

You know, often I think that you are responding to posts that are maybe made on another board?

I did not say that I was for misrepresenting Wicca.

I said nothing about drama queens, coddled or fried.

I said nothing about trolls.

I said nothing about supporting destructive behavior.

I simply said and I quote "Fortunately, we all get to decide for ourselves what our ethics and beliefs are and exactly what we think is silly or who is misrepresenting themselves or Wicca or if we think others have something to contribute."

[KeaErisdottir]

Extremisim to me is when someone tell you its this way and no other way and if you dont do it this way then you are condemed to exhile or banishment for that particulat point of view.

So, if someone honestly believes that your soul is imperiled because you don't believe in Jesus, you find that extremism? That actually does fit within the parameters of the conditions you've set. I would be loathe to call it extremism.

Also, what do you mean by 'exhile' or 'banishment'? As there is no one in the pagan or Wiccan communities who can banish or exile anyone, I don't see the relevance.

[KeaErisdottir]

You know, often I think that you are responding to posts that are maybe made on another board?

Or perhaps you failed to anticipate all possible responses to your statement.


I did not say that I was for misrepresenting Wicca.

I said nothing about drama queens, coddled or fried.

I said nothing about trolls.

I said nothing about supporting destructive behavior.

Right, you didn't. You made a statement that implies that you either don't care about those thing, or are troubled that anyone would suggest that maybe the problem is too much tolerence for behavior that should never be tolerated. The pagan community, on the whole, is notorious for its fear to offend people by expecting them to not be a--holes. Tolerance has logical and practical limits.

[Greyharp]

Or perhaps you failed to anticipate all possible responses to your statement.

Do we really need to try and "anticipate all possible responses to" the things we say? We'd all be sitting here not typing a thing, while contemplating what we'd like to post and thinking about all the possible rebuttals if we had to do so. It is quite easy to tear apart a person's post, especially using arguments that have no direct relationship to the person's statements or their intentions. But is it necessary?


The pagan community, on the whole, is notorious for its fear to offend people by expecting them to not be a--holes.

And you've decided to go on a crusade to make up for this lack? We should be careful not to become the very thing we are trying to prevent.


Tolerance has logical and practical limits.

And intolerance is destructive. Don't misread me here, I'm not suggesting we tolerate stupidity, ignorance or harmful behaviour, etc., but constructive criticism is a whole lot different than argumentativeness. Tearing people's posts apart point by point is fine, if they warrant it, but after a while this becomes tedious and BORING. There are more constructive and practical ways of getting your point across than getting up in the morning, swallowing a handful of angry pills and then picking up your scalpel to dissect every post that doesn't agree with your personal viewpoint.

[KeaErisdottir]

And you've decided to go on a crusade to make up for this lack? We should be careful not to become the very thing we are trying to prevent.

That it is being characterized as a 'crusade' suggests that the tolerance for negative and destructive behavior is endemic. Those who are afraid to say 'no' to it are as much part of the problem as those doing it.


And intolerance is destructive.

Along with being so open minded that your brains fall out.
Along with 'going along with the crowd', because 'everyone's doing it'.
Along with giving stuff you know is wrong a pass because your friends are doing it.
Along with declaring everyone in the pagan community to be 'family'.
Along with character assasination when you don't get your warm fuzzy/invite to dinner/vote of support or whatever in the local pagan scene.
Along with allowing a convicted child molester at your pagan event, where kids will be present, because he never 'did anything bad around you'.

I mean, there's a LOT of negative crap going on out there that is fully tolerated and supported by mealy-mouth BS about how someone isn't 'being constructive', isn't 'cool', isn't 'tolerant', is an 'extremist', or whatever.

If I said anything at all, it was that standing up to the the bad stuff that causes division in the community and causes the impression that there is no middle ground is of somewhat paramount importance. If, for instance, there is no room for the perpetually persecuted whiners to complain about how Traditionals they have never met are the enemy, then there might be more room to showcase the existence of middle of the road groups and practices that are healthy.

[Lunacie]

Or perhaps you failed to anticipate all possible responses to your statement.

I agree with Greyharp that attempting to anticipate all of the thousands of possible responses tends to stifle discussion.



Right, you didn't. You made a statement that implies that you either don't care about those thing, or are troubled that anyone would suggest that maybe the problem is too much tolerence for behavior that should never be tolerated. The pagan community, on the whole, is notorious for its fear to offend people by expecting them to not be a--holes. Tolerance has logical and practical limits.

And again, your experiences are very different from those I've had. I do not agree that "The Pagan community, on the whole" is afraid of offending people by calling them on their bullshite and just wants everyone to get along. I've seen that attitude, of course, but I don't think it's anywhere near a majority.

Funny how the things you believe have been implied are generally not confirmed by the posters who wrote them, isn't it?

[Greyharp]

That it is being characterized as a 'crusade' suggests that the tolerance for negative and destructive behavior is endemic. Those who are afraid to say 'no' to it are as much part of the problem as those doing it.

LOL, I knew you were going to say that. :)



Quote:
And intolerance is destructive.
Along with being so open minded that your brains fall out.
Along with 'going along with the crowd', because 'everyone's doing it'.
Along with giving stuff you know is wrong a pass because your friends are doing it.
Along with declaring everyone in the pagan community to be 'family'.
Along with character assasination when you don't get your warm fuzzy/invite to dinner/vote of support or whatever in the local pagan scene.
Along with allowing a convicted child molester at your pagan event, where kids will be present, because he never 'did anything bad around you'.

I mean, there's a LOT of negative crap going on out there that is fully tolerated and supported by mealy-mouth BS about how someone isn't 'being constructive', isn't 'cool', isn't 'tolerant', is an 'extremist', or whatever.

If I said anything at all, it was that standing up to the the bad stuff that causes division in the community and causes the impression that there is no middle ground is of somewhat paramount importance. If, for instance, there is no room for the perpetually persecuted whiners to complain about how Traditionals they have never met are the enemy, then there might be more room to showcase the existence of middle of the road groups and practices that are healthy.

You could have saved yourself a lot of time and energy typing all that if you had read what I said next after my quote, which was:


Don't misread me here, I'm not suggesting we tolerate stupidity, ignorance or harmful behaviour, etc.

[Lunacie]

LOL, I knew you were going to say that. :)



You could have saved yourself a lot of time and energy typing all that if you had read what I said next after my quote, which was:

Ah, but it's so much easier to mis-interpret a "sound bite" than to figure out things in context. ;)

eta: typo

[Greyharp]

You made a statement that implies that....

If we tell a person their words imply something and they then turn around and say "that wasn't what I meant" or "that was never my intention", that should be the end of it. It is pointless to continue trying to show otherwise.

[Elderbush]

Or perhaps you failed to anticipate all possible responses to your statement.

Right, you didn't. You made a statement that implies that you either don't care about those thing, or are troubled that anyone would suggest that maybe the problem is too much tolerence for behavior that should never be tolerated. The pagan community, on the whole, is notorious for its fear to offend people by expecting them to not be a--holes. Tolerance has logical and practical limits.

You are right - I failed to anticipate all possible responses to my statement and I don't believe that is something I need to waste my time doing. If you do choose to anticipate all possible response to each word you post, that's up to you.

I did not imply anything of the sort. I said that our ethics and our choices are decisions that each one of us makes. It is called Self-Responsibility. I feel strongly - if you correctly understood my post - that no one try to take self-responsibility away from the individual. Not only does self-responsibility includes my personal actions, it also includes the right to decide for myself who is an a-hole and who is a b-shiter and what I intend to do about that.

Rage on.

[KeaErisdottir]

LOL, I knew you were going to say that. :)

Yet, do you agree with a lot of what is expressed on the "Trollspotting" website? If you do, it's saying the exact same thing.


You could have saved yourself a lot of time and energy typing all that if you had read what I said next after my quote, which was:

I looked at the disclaimer as a basic dodge in the name of spouting moralistic social dogmas about intolerance, anger, and things people don't like to hear. I'm also unapologetic about that.

[Greyharp]

Originally Posted by Greyharp
LOL, I knew you were going to say that.

Yet, do you agree with a lot of what is expressed on the "Trollspotting" website? If you do, it's saying the exact same thing.

Without looking up the website, I can't comment, however I do know you were putting words in my mouth, words I didn't write nor agree with.



Originally Posted by Greyharp
You could have saved yourself a lot of time and energy typing all that if you had read what I said next after my quote, which was:

I looked at the disclaimer as a basic dodge in the name of spouting moralistic social dogmas about intolerance, anger, and things people don't like to hear. I'm also unapologetic about that.

ahh well, you assumed and you know what they say about people who assume? You certainly have done a good job of it.

[Lunacie]

I hardly think it's a dodge against educating people who are misinformed, or exhibit negative or destructive behavior in the name of Wicca to say that arguments are less helpful than constructive criticism. Moral indignation does very little to persuade anyone that there is a different way of looking at a situation or a different way of behaving.

[KeaErisdottir]

I hardly think it's a dodge against educating people who are misinformed, or exhibit negative or destructive behavior in the name of Wicca to say that arguments are less helpful than constructive criticism. Moral indignation does very little to persuade anyone that there is a different way of looking at a situation or a different way of behaving.

So, when we take something relatively innocuous like the basic meanings of terms like 'spirituality' and 'religion', which actualy mean different things, especially in the general pagan context, and are frequently used interchangeably, and you encounter willful ignornace and even recalcitrance on the matter, even though the uses of the terms have been explained, then? There are no magic words that fix this, if basic reason does not. When you coddle it, and overlook continuing patterns of negative and destructive behaviors within a community, you invite more of it.

Is the point of this tolerance to persuade? I don't see that happening. The most successful groups, in terms of practice and actual service, set the bar much higher than that.

[Greyharp]

Originally Posted by Lunacie
I hardly think it's a dodge against educating people who are misinformed, or exhibit negative or destructive behavior in the name of Wicca to say that arguments are less helpful than constructive criticism. Moral indignation does very little to persuade anyone that there is a different way of looking at a situation or a different way of behaving.

So, when we take something relatively innocuous like the basic meanings of terms like 'spirituality' and 'religion', which actualy mean different things, especially in the general pagan context, and are frequently used interchangeably, and you encounter willful ignornace and even recalcitrance on the matter, even though the uses of the terms have been explained, then? There are no magic words that fix this, if basic reason does not. When you coddle it, and overlook continuing patterns of negative and destructive behaviors within a community, you invite more of it.

Is the point of this tolerance to persuade? I don't see that happening. The most successful groups, in terms of practice and actual service, set the bar much higher than that.

Do you even know what you are talking about here, because I'm not sure I do. Nope, after reading this post again I have to say this is too convoluted for me to work out the link. It's like there are two separate conversations happening at the same time and somehow being mixed together.

How did 'spirituality' and 'religion' come into it? Lunacie was discussing the difference between constructive criticism and argumentativeness in a thread, how did you manage to interpret this as, if I grasp what you are saying (and this is a big if), confusion between the meaning of words, leading to recalcitrant actions, thus causing destructive behaviour within a community, remedied by being less tolerant?

This is like shadow boxing, attacking things people said when they didn't actually say them, never even hinted at them, and certainly didn't imply them by what they did or didn't say. And above all, while we're having our two separate but simultaneous conversations, I'm at a loss as to how we've managed to drag this thread so far away from the initial subject of a trend towards dividing Wicca into two camps - BTW-types and paperback pagans.

[Elderbush]

Kea, why don't you start a thread addressing whatever issue you clearly want to address and let this thread go back to the stated topic? I think that would satisfy everyone.

[Lunacie]

So, when we take something relatively innocuous like the basic meanings of terms like 'spirituality' and 'religion', which actualy mean different things, especially in the general pagan context, and are frequently used interchangeably, and you encounter willful ignornace and even recalcitrance on the matter, even though the uses of the terms have been explained, then? There are no magic words that fix this, if basic reason does not. When you coddle it, and overlook continuing patterns of negative and destructive behaviors within a community, you invite more of it.

Is the point of this tolerance to persuade? I don't see that happening. The most successful groups, in terms of practice and actual service, set the bar much higher than that.

I don't "coddle" or "overlook" or "tolerate", I explain and educate. If someone still doesn't get it or refuses to accept that their's isn't the only truth, then what good does it do to get angry and argue with them? I can't force anyone to believe anything, and wouldn't want to anyway. Beliefs are personal. The most I can do is continue to explain the difference as I see it - and at some point perhaps just walk away. Which is not the same thing as coddling or overlooking or tolerating.

And I thought we were talking in a general (online forums) sense, not about groups in terms of practice and service, which of course requires a higher level of knowledge and commitment.

[Greyharp]

I came across the following article on the website for the magazine The Pomegranate and thought it appropriate for this thread:

http://chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/natrel/pom/old/POMprem2.html

[~Belladonna~]

So many people seem to miss the middle ground and just go on the extremist Traditionals or the fluffy Solitary Wiccans. Believe it or not there're people like me who hit the middle ground. I am an Eclectic, Solitary Wiccan, I've never claimed to be a Traditional Wiccan but I've had the Traditionals tell me many times that I can't call myself Wiccan, the thing they seem to forget is I don't just claim the name Wiccan it has the word Eclectic in front of it, not Traditional and deffo not "fluffy!" I took me many months to decide on my chosen path and I deffo didn't read any SRW books along the way, nor did I just suddenly decide to call myself Wiccan, it took time and I'm still in my year and a day period now.

Many Traditionals talk about the Mysteries, these are not things you can find in books, on the net, etc. these are not things that can be described in words or told to another person. The Mysteries have to be experienced for ones self, and I honestly think if a non Traditional Wiccan has claimed the word Wiccan/Eclectic/Solitary Wiccan then they should have experienced what the Mysteries are or they're in the process of doing so, as we all know, it's a life long experience.
I mean, you could have read 500 books on Wicca, claim to be it, and really have no clue because you don't know what the Mysteries are about or anything else for that matter which goes deeper than a book or the internet lol. It's a big thing for me, and I can understand why so many get called fluffy etc. but who really has the right to call someone else that when they don't know how that person follows and experiences their Wiccan path?

I think it would be a lot easier if the Traditionals stuck with their "label" i.e. Traditional Wiccan and the Eclectics stick with theirs i.e. Eclectic Wiccan. Mind you, the name fluffy would still get thrown around so I suppose it wouldn't solve much....

[Fairy_Princess]

Along with being so open minded that your brains fall out.
Along with 'going along with the crowd', because 'everyone's doing it'.
Along with giving stuff you know is wrong a pass because your friends are doing it.
Along with declaring everyone in the pagan community to be 'family'.
Along with character assasination when you don't get your warm fuzzy/invite to dinner/vote of support or whatever in the local pagan scene.
Along with allowing a convicted child molester at your pagan event, where kids will be present, because he never 'did anything bad around you'.

I mean, there's a LOT of negative crap going on out there that is fully tolerated and supported by mealy-mouth BS about how someone isn't 'being constructive', isn't 'cool', isn't 'tolerant', is an 'extremist', or whatever.

If I said anything at all, it was that standing up to the the bad stuff that causes division in the community and causes the impression that there is no middle ground is of somewhat paramount importance. If, for instance, there is no room for the perpetually persecuted whiners to complain about how Traditionals they have never met are the enemy, then there might be more room to showcase the existence of middle of the road groups and practices that are healthy.


Sounds like you're from Pittsburgh....

[Dawa Lhamo]

Sounds like you're from Pittsburgh....HAHAHAHA!!!!! OMGs!