"Newbie"/"Elder" Interaction

[Earthcup]

A new person asked a question, on another site, the other day and was met with a lot of info and opinions. She was offended because she felt that by giving out so much info and advice people assumed she knew nothing. No ill will was intended on either side but feelings were hurt anyway.

There's a tendency to regard newbies as silly fluffies and for newbies to become very offended when they recieve advice they don't like or that they feel is condescending.

What are some ways we can improve relations between new seekers and experienced Pagans?

It's important for info to pass between the two "generations" but often this is impeded by petty things. What can be done to better the situation? :huh:

[Danustouch]

Well..I for one am very sensitive to people with Condescending attitudes, and yet..sometimes, I've also been interpeted as being condescending. I think that sometimes these things are bound to happen. But one way which you can minimize your chances of being though condescending, is by instead of saying.."Uhhh...for you really should read into that a bit more"...you would say..."well, I would suggest a few books on the topic, if you'd like". Thus..leaving it in the other persons court. Sounding more helpful, then condescending.

[Myst]

It happens with anyone of any age often. I tend to find a lot when I give someone advice or something with the best of intentions they might get offended or think I'm trying to tell them what to do or act like I know more.

I guess it needs some work from the person who's offended - sometimes someone really doesn't make it clear they don't want advice. To me unless you say "hey I just want to rant" people are going to give advice (and sometimes even then). I try not to be offended when someone gives advice to me; I know they're just looking out and trying to help. Maybe people should try not to get so defensive. Misunderstandings happen, especially in an online forum!

[Nect]

Yeah, know what you mean. Newbies try to sound agreeable by posing their questions in the manner of I-don't-know-anything-please-enlighten-me, which, I think, is a gesture of politeness. But some who respond take it literally! :lol:

Like Danustouch said, phrasing things in a different way usually works... But for both newbies and 'elders', it can be a personality problem...some just get offended SO easily...

Nect

[MistOfTheSea86]

I was looking through old threads a while back, and I realized how much of a newbie I was then! LOL. Hehehehe, and it's even funnier to think how much a person can grow in the matter of ONE year

[Chibi-Fallon]

I can put up with being treated like a fluffy now and again. But I’m a teenager and I’m used to people thinking I’m stupid and that I’m going to steal things and then go smoke my pot.
As long as someone doesn’t seem to have a major attitude problem, I’ll just put up with it. Most of the time I try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they’re just being nice. I mean it's not their fault they can't jump inside my head and see what I know.

[kblackthorne]

Earthcup,

As you probably know, I saw the thread... and my reaction was pretty much the same as the Newbie's, though not as strong.

She asked a simple question: "Given Y, would it be offensive if I did X?" And instead of answering that question, she got a lot of people lecturing her about knowing the meaning of X.

A careful reading of her question showed she already knew.

While I'll agree she over-reacted, I really think, in this case, the "elders" were just too ready to assume the worst. (And I do find that unusual for the site involved.


Now there've been other cases where the "elders" did give the requested information... and the newbie didn't like the answers and threw a hissy fit. Take that whole bevy of "the boogieman is going to get me" posts... We didn't play in to the delusion, and so were big, bad meanies. And were accused of "not answering the question" when that was exactly what we had done. Very directly.


The answer?

I think "newbies" often ask a question, wanting a particular answer. And are upset when they don't get it.

I think "elders" often become jaded, and think they know what they're seeing without really looking at it. And respond accordingly.

I think this all gets even worse in an online community where there is only the printed word -- no tone of voice, no body language.

I think it all comes down to the word ASS/U/ME. Both sides tend to assume certain things... and no one is ever happy when their assumptions are upset.

If you're going to ask questions, you must be prepared for an honest answer.

If you're going to presume to teach, you must look at what is actually being asked.

[Earthcup]

Good point.

I'm guilty of underestimating people myself. Someone asks a question and I go on and on about what I know on the subject whether it's pertinent to the question or not.

I said some pretty weird things as an early newbie myself, I'm still a newbie just know more than I did. I know I took a lot of advice badly at first.

That incident though is mirrored in thousands of others. I'm not sure that the problem will ever go away completely, personalities are so diferent, but I think it's something the community (me especially) should keep in mind.

Anyway, it got me to thinking and I know I'll try to be more careful in how I respond in the future.

[Lavender]

Kate's got a good point.

Sometimes, trying to figure out the question is tough enough. If it's not worded right, people can misinterpret the question. I think people sometimes forget that on a online community such as this place, we have people who's primary language is not always English.

Incidently, I didn't see the original post that you're talking about so I'm answering based on what you've asked here. :D

[kblackthorne]

That's OK Wildchild -- it wasn't here. It was on another forum we both frequent/frequented.

There's one other thing to consider, too.

When someone "walks into" a forum, they're walking into a pecking order they know nothing about. "We" already know one another, and there's an unofficial hierarchy. ("We" being the established members of any group -- online or otherwise.) And we have some ideas about each other's areas of expertise, and how much someone is or isn't likely to talk out of their hat.

The "Newcomer" doesn't have that.

And so they may tell Wildchild she knows nothing about tea, Azure she knows nothing about theater, and Windsinger she knows nothing about history, Mol he knows nothing about running a website... all without meaning to. In fact, sometimes this blind newcomer questioning them on these subjects can be seen questioning their competence -- which is known to the group but not to the newcomer. And the "community" tends to react to that as insult -- whether any was intended or not.

(To all the people I just used as examples: I picked you because I DO consider you experts in your field -- at least far more expert than me!)



I started making a habit some time ago (or trying to) of stating openly any major assumptions I make in answering a question.

Sometimes the question is so broadly stated that you HAVE to make assumptions. To pick a real example, "What do Wiccans believe about sex?"

I answered that one about a year ago (give or take). I assumed his background was Christian. I assumed he had heard some vague rumors about nudity, sex-acts during worship, and possibly orgies, and that this was his reason for asking.

Then I went on to give the general outlook, and explain where some of those rumors might have come from, and the reality behind the rumor.

Some of my assumptions were wrong, but he was able to correct them.

And if I'd been in his shoes, I might have been offended if those assumptions were implied but not stated. Stating them is a way of saying, "I may be wrong about this -- correct me if I am."

[Enchantedlight]

Am I allowed to say this? :) I'm the host on a welcome board on another forum. My main problem is trying to discover what new members actually want. So often they just give a simple "hi" with no other information to help me guide them to an appropiate discussion board. All too often these new members leave, simply because they felt "lost" on which appears at first, an large community.
Therefore I welcome really long intros and completed profiles. so that I can keep my reply short, polite and to the point.

PS, i'm still quite new here, be kind please!! :wave:

[Jenett]

One way I try to respond to stuff like that is to remember that sometimes new folks to a board might know a whole lot about X subject, but might *not* know a lot about online interactions and etiquette.

So, say you get someone posting a question on a board in all caps, no paragraphs, and where the question they're asking has been in recent discussion in the first place. I'll usually start by saying "Hi." and then point them at the recent discussion (if it's in the last few days or so to a week, anyway) and then let them know that there are some things that make online discussions easier.

Depending on if it's Usenet, a mailing list, or a web board, some of those things might be different, but I do encourage people to read at least a week or two's worth of posts before doing a lot of posting. (Whether that's by reading for a week or two before posting, or whether that's by sitting down and reading back posts.) Often, that's enough to give people the kind of social clues and local heirarchy issues that will help them not feel too embarassed.

I *have* had people throw fits at that, and usually they get one reply along the lines of further explanation of why the request was made. (like the fact that all caps and endless paragraphs are really hard to read, especially for people with things like dyslexia or whatever) and if they refuse to conform to reasonable community standards after that, well, I'll probably stop reading their posts unless I'm very bored indeed.

Usually, reasonable people do stop, go "Oh, I see your point, that could be a problem" and work on doing things in a way that fits better with the posting formatting standards/whatever. Also, pointing out that really unconventional formatting issues will probably severely cut down on the folks willing to read their comments is a good incentive.

If the person is very well known in the topical circle, but is very new to online discussion, I usually try a polite nudge - it's happened a couple of times, for example, that some Big Name will join a discussion group I'm on. (I can think of at least twice, though these weren't Pagan groups) and proceeded to do the There Is One True Way thing.

At that point, I usually try a "Hey, what you're saying doesn't include me. I've been around on this group for a while, and this group *does* accept <whatever behavior> as being valid. I'd appreciate it if you'd rephrase your statements as being what works for you, and not generalise what works for you as being the only thing that works for everyone - I suspect you'll get along here better if you can make that change."

Only, usually, it's slightly more elegantly/politely phrased and a little longer. But that's the jist. (The 'statement of what you would like to have happen' is an important part of the process in this, by the way. People tend to respond better to "You can say what you want to say, just, if you could frame it *this* way, rather than that way, it'd be a lot easier to discuss..." better than "You're doing it all wrong."

So that's how I deal with "Has lots of info, just no 'net clue."

If someone just posts a one or two line question with no data, I tend to not assume anything about their background, and start off by saying things like "I don't know what your background is, because you haven't said, so I'm going to start from the basics here...." and go on from there. Then, if it turns out they do have background, they've been encouraged to give a little more detail next time. If they don't have the background, they now have at least some. And if anyone else was reading who didn't have the background, they now have a place to start, at least.

I do usually add a comment to new posters about the fact I'm a librarian by vocation: handing people information is what I do and love doing.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Myst
It happens with anyone of any age often. I tend to find a lot when I give someone advice or something with the best of intentions they might get offended or think I'm trying to tell them what to do or act like I know more.

I guess it needs some work from the person who's offended - sometimes someone really doesn't make it clear they don't want advice. To me unless you say "hey I just want to rant" people are going to give advice (and sometimes even then). I try not to be offended when someone gives advice to me; I know they're just looking out and trying to help. Maybe people should try not to get so defensive. Misunderstandings happen, especially in an online forum!

8O ~ And I, being both an elder in years and a helping professional - just sometimes sound like a teacher or advice-giver without meaning to. Individual personalities can be misunderstood and misinterpreted.

Misunderstandings do happen - and IMHO the purpose of our discussions is to share information and agree to disagree. I have seen some very good discussions where I have not agreed with all that was said but usually come away with one or two things to think about.

And I admit it - fluffies do irritate me sometimes. I belong to an open community where we have to tolerate lots of curiosity-seekers and individuals who use the pagan path as a form of rebellion and don't have a bit of interest in or knowledge about the spiritual aspects. I make an effort to watch this, because some newbies may sound fluffy when they're really not - they just haven't learned enough to have grasped the concepts yet. There are those who are searching and the goddess entrusts us with her teaching. We need to do our best to present ourselves in the most positive light possible.

[Kaylara]

I'll put it to you like this... People my own age and younger think I'm wise, Older people think I'm trying to be like the girls from the Craft, and I think that I'm just me... If someone wants instruction, then they should ask for it, and not get offended when someone assumes that they don't know certain things. Most newbies (no offense) try to act like they know a lot more than they do so that they don't feel inferior. Be honest... We are a religion of priests and priestesses... A very large goal for many of us is the accumulation of knowledge... You can't tell me that's not intimidating to a newbie...

Personally, I think that in order for both sides to learn something, each has to give up a little of their ego and realize that NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING!!!!

Kaylara

[kblackthorne]

Enchanted light:

Yes, having to play "mind reader" is difficult. So often newcomers don't even know how to phrase what they want... I don't envy you that task!

Jenett:

I hold that you're still stating your assumptions. :) Your assumption is just, "I don't know anything about you." :p

And I like the way you handle the difficult situations you describe.

Freyja:

I agree with you completely. Some of the people I have learned the most from have been those I disagreed with who were willing to discuss their beliefs and where they were coming from. Having that kind of dialogue with someone you disagree with can be a very enlightening experience. I'm not talking about changing anyone's mind here or even trying to. I'm talking about understanding that which is different.

Kaylara:

Bingo! If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here. There'd be no more reason for me to incarnate. :) Us humans is ign'rnt & fallible. All of us.

And for all you (generic "you") know, the person at the other end of the computer holds a post-doctoral degree in the subject at hand! If we can just let go of what we think we know long enough to look at what someone is saying... we could often learn much. :)

[Lavender]

Another point too, is that there are more people reading the question rather than just the original poster. Sometimes, giving more info than the original poster asked for, may help others.

I know a lot of people (myself included) read the questions & think... "Hey! Good question! I know nothing about that!"

Personally, I know I can rambled on for hours if someone asks me a question. :D

[Lavender]

Originally posted by kblackthorne
:

Bingo! If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here. There'd be no more reason for me to incarnate. :) Us humans is ign'rnt & fallible. All of us.

Heh! Yup! That's why my signature says what it says! :p

[Haedis]

My main pet peeve when talking to older or more experienced people is when they refer to me as "sweetie" or "hun".

"Um sweetie, you TOTALLY missed the point here."

That just irritates me. They could just as easily say :

"I think the point they were trying to make was...."

The other thing that I cant stand is when "newbies" try to be TOO agreeable. Its one thing to lay low for a little bit and to be polite, but its another thing to kiss ass or to be afraid to have a firm opinion, so everything comes out uncertain and unclear.

[kblackthorne]

OK, well here's my take on that one.

I'm one of those people who is often accused of sounding harsh when I didn't mean to be.

"Please be careful when you use the garbage disposal. I just pulled a mangled spoon out of it" {in a calm, even voice} does NOT mean, "You moronic imbecille, how could you run a spoon through the disposal -- don't lie, I know it was you!!!! I'm going to get you, and your little dog to!!!!"

Yet this is what I get accused of. Frequently. The above was a real example. (OK, except for the last sentence.)

And I KNOW that the situation is far worse online. So, if I'm saying something that could be taken as criticism, I try to soften it. Usually with a term of affection. (For me, it's often "Luv".)

And if someone appears to be in need of comfort -- the sort that involves just crawling up onto someone's lap & being held -- they become "Little One"... regardless of our relative ages or sizes. (And that's in real-life, too. The name just seems to go with that particular role.) I try to be careful of that on the web, but it's there.

[Myst]

That happens to me a lot too. All the time!!! People don't seem to believe that if I meant to call them a moron I would've!

But then I find if I use a term like that they think I'm being condescending. *sigh* Ya just can't win with some people :)

[Illuminatus]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid people.

[Myst]

Incidentally, I've been toying with whether I should mention this or not, but I've decided to.

When you mention discussion from a forum, or talk about people on a forum, on another public forum, be prepared in case the people you're talking about find out and are upset that you'd gossip about them elsewhere where they can't defend or explain themselves.

For instance I surf a lot of online Pagan forums and you'd be surprised at what I see spoken about people on other forums. You can imagine if I find someone bitching about what I did here on another public forum I'm not impressed. :)

But then I suppose if you don't care what that person thinks of you it doesn't matter. *shrugs* That's up to you. Obviously some people just don't feel comfortable discussing an issue on the forum where it was brought up. This was just a thought I wanted to mention. People are welcome to disagree with me but I thought I'd mention that's how I feel and possibly how others you talk about might feel.

[Lavender]

Good point, Myst.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Haedis
My main pet peeve when talking to older or more experienced people is when they refer to me as "sweetie" or "hun".


Keep in mind that this could be a cultural thing. Where I live, "hun" and "sweetie" and "darlin'" are just a common part of dialect for some folks who mean no offense. Being from the east coast, it took me a long time to get used to it and get over my annoyance.

Myst: Very good point.

[Gryphonstar]

Okay i'm anewbie to this board but not so much to Wicca and I know that If someone were to treat me like I was a dim wit I'd be a lil upset. why can't people just answer questions and give advice like they were speaking( well writing) to an equal. with due respect of coarse.

[Myst]

What we're talking about is when you're trying to be respectful and people misinterpret, and how you can show respect or that you're being respectful. It's not really a matter of whether people should be respectful or not, but more of discussing how you can make it clear that you're being respectful, or how you can be sure if the other person is respectful or not.

[kblackthorne]

When you mention discussion from a forum, or talk about people on a forum, on another public forum, be prepared in case the people you're talking about find out and are upset that you'd gossip about them elsewhere where they can't defend or explain themselves.

A valid point, Myst.

And both Earthcup & myself DID address it on the forum in question, pretty much immediately.

(In my early posts on this thread, I was flipping back & forth between the two sites.)

I even apologized for any part my reply might have had in fueling the misunderstanding. (And by the time I got back, it had been recognized as a misunderstanding.) And there was a big discussion about how such things can happen... and a whole new thread discussing the topic that had started it all... and...

So really, we're not griping behind anyone's backs, here. Just discussing an issue in the larger community, and trying to find solutions.

[Earthcup]

I tried to word the situation discreetly but I suppose I could have made up an example. I really didn't intend to gripe about one certain situation but to try to adress an issue that pops up everywhere.

I dislike "sweetie" and "hun" but I realised a long time ago that people don't intend to be condescending, it's just their manner of speech. I've let slip a "hunny" or two myself..:D

I also tend to give more info than required because it might be of use to someone else. I don't mean to "preach" but I suppose it can come off that way.

So what would be some basic guidelines for "newbies" and "elders"?

Respect? Assume nothing? Be polite and to the point?

[kblackthorne]

But I still probably would have figured out what you were talking about.

And the point about not grousing about folks behind their backs is legit. It just didn't really apply, because we weren't saying "That Contrary Asteria is a ninny-head!"*, but rather "Here's a situation... how does one prevent it re-curring?" And we were saying it in both places.

*My apologies to the Contrary One. I just needed the name of someone who wouldn't get mad... and I don't have a screen-name of my own to use for the purpse.

[Earthcup]

I am not a ninny! *goes to her room and pouts* :D

I know when I started seaching I felt like I was lost without a map. Witchvox helped a little but didn't really give me the info I needed.

Do you think a site full of good solid info touching all the issues and traditions in Paganism would be helpful? Someplace where you not only find Wicca 101 stuff but also newbie ettiquette guidelines, metaphysical FAQ's, info and links on different Pagan religons and decent history?

Everyone points to Witchvox for info but after you get past the Wicca 101 and the few trad articles all that's left is networking and news.

[Flar's Freyja]

Witchvox is an excellent site but it is very large and difficult to navigate. I've seen many sites offering the history and links that you're looking for, but I haven't seen newbie etiquette other than the brief lists posted when you register as a member.

Message boards are online communities and personalities will clash. IMHO, it's best to keep this in mind and use your best level of maturity when interacting with someone who has upset you. I've learned to simply ignore some posts, or wait until I've calmed down enough to respond in a mature manner.

Another thing I've noticed is that sometimes the original poster's message is not even read. Folks are just going by the last few posts, and the topic has grown so much that the original message is missed. Or, someone reads the post too quickly and completely misses the point and responds too rapidly to what they think they read.

[Enchantedlight]

Freyja, that is so true. Threads like this one take no time at all to read through, but when you start getting into the hundreds it is so easy for members, newbies like me too! to go straight to the end.
:)

[Flar's Freyja]

Elders are just as guilty, myself included! My last job was very fast-paced and stressful and I got myself into trouble more than once for reading my e-mails too fast and firing off responses. Hopefully I learned something..........

[Myst]

Yeah there's nothing like finding a post by someone bringing up what's already been discussed for pages because they didn't take the time to read before responding. :lol:

[Flar's Freyja]

Redundancy really doesn't bother me. It's when the entire context of the thread ends up being so misconstrued that it ends up in an argument rather than a discussion.

[Myst]

Yeah that tends to happen too. People might argue then realize "wait a minute, I explained ___ and how I agreed about ___ 2 pages ago!"

:)

[Flar's Freyja]

:ahhhh: It's a double-bind, isn't it?

[kblackthorne]

Someplace where you not only find Wicca 101 stuff but also newbie ettiquette guidelines, metaphysical FAQ's, info and links on different Pagan religons and decent history?

Doesn't The Students' Guide to Wicca (http://macmorgan_design.home.att.net/guide/guide.html) have some of that? (Some, not all.)

I agree -- WitchVox is a pain in the elbow to navigate. When I point there, I give links to the specific page that has the resource in question, rather than expecting someone to get there on their own. Because it took me so long to learn my way around there.

[Flar's Freyja]

There are a lot of good things within that site that are easy to miss because it's just too huge.

[Myst]

Lots of sites have some or all of it.

Whether it's easily found or not, or someone feels they have time to find all that info, is another story :)

Incidentally, you could always email the people who run Witchvox and talk to them about it. I'm sure they'd be interested to know what people think and think about how their site might be improved, just like all good web designers :)

[Earthcup]

Yeah, Wren and Fritz are super nice. I may get my thoughts together and shoot them an e-mail later.

Witchvox is a great site but not only is it large you also get the impression that Neo-Paganism, or modern Paganism, is pretty much all about Wicca and Wicca-like religons. It has a couple of articles on Asatru and Thelema but it doesn't mention half the religons and traditions out there.

Maybe I'm just picky about stuff like that. :D

*I want it all and I want it now! pouts Earthcup's inner child....*

[Jenett]

If it's any help to others out there, I've gathered a collection of links (aimed at Pagan situations) together at

http://www.gleewood.org/study/etiquette.html

I've also written up some comments on online interaction and etiquette and usability issues - they're not Pagan specific, but in general, I think they apply to most online settings, regardless of topic.

The general stuff is here:
http://www.gleewood.org/writings/online.html

and there's some general comments on writing style here:

http://www.gleewood.org/writings/writingstyle.html

I've been told by other folks new to online communication that they've been helpful (which was the idea), so I thought I'd pass them on.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Earthcup
Witchvox is a great site but not only is it large you also get the impression that Neo-Paganism, or modern Paganism, is pretty much all about Wicca and Wicca-like religons. It has a couple of articles on Asatru and Thelema but it doesn't mention half the religons and traditions out there.

Their articles are almost all submitted, right? So I would imagine it's possibly because they haven't had a lot of non Wiccans write in.

Mind you I wrote an article on Green Witchcraft months ago and submitted it and never got a response or saw it put up. *shrugs*

[Myst]

Thanks Jenett, that should be really helpful.