Do you feel both Celtic & Germanic Recons are Heathens?

[seapearls]

I've heard both the Celtic & Germanic tribes refered to as being Heathens but when talking aout modern recons a lot of places emphasize that only the Germanic Recons are considered Heathens. But didn't the church call them both heathens & barbarians equally? I just don't hear of Celtic Recons refering to themelves as Heathens but then again I don't hang out with any or that section of MW often.

Just some online examples.....Mostly these are celtic recons calling themselves heathen but I don't see many Germanic recons enveloping Celtic recons with the term.

The Irish Gaelic, Pictish and Anglo-Saxon heathens had put their differences aside to fight a common enemy: Roman colonial expansion.http://druidry.org/obod/druid-path/celts_saxons.html

An MSN group for Celtic Heathenry

http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/celticrevivalism.msnw

Someones Live Journal
Harp and Hammer:
Celtic and Germanic Heathen Dialogue
http://community.livejournal.com/harpandhammer/profile

All Heathens (Asatruar, Odinists, Druids, Baltic, Celtic or Slavic Pagans, and other Northern European traditional religionists) from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan......
http://www.witchvox.com/lx/dt_lx.html?a=usmi&id=27282

[ap Dafydd]

I don't consider myself to be a Heathen and have never come across anyone else on the Celtic side using the word.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[skilly-nilly]

I've heard both the Celtic & Germanic tribes refered to as being Heathens but when talking aout modern recons a lot of places emphasize that only the Germanic Recons are considered Heathens. But didn't the church call them both heathens & barbarians equally? I just don't hear of Celtic Recons refering to themelves as Heathens but then again I don't hang out with any or that section of MW often.


http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/celticrevivalism.msnw

In your 2nd point there, the author says:
"The reason for our use of "Heathen," however, is to distinguish "Celtic Heathens" (or more preferably, something like "Sinnsearachdaidhean") from the Neo-Pagans, who have already done their best to ensure that "Pagan" is widely taken to mean "Neo-Pagan," such that if one describes oneself as "Pagan," the majority of hearers/readers will assume "Neo-Pagan," and though the two terms are not really synonymous, the distinctions have been significantly blurred already so that anyone who does not wish to be associated with Neo-Paganism cannot use the term "Pagan" without a lengthy disclaimer. "


I think this is the meat of it.
In the very old days, the Church used 'pagan' and 'heathen' fairly interchangeably to mean 'not-Xian'.
Modern Pagans ('Neo-Pagans') have largely adopted the one term 'Pagan', and this has lead (imo) to the adoption of the term 'Heathen' by religious groups that want to distance themselves from Wicca and its offshoots. And to seem less 'fluffy', because making nice isn't key to the precepts of either the Celtic group of cultures nor Asatru.

I am a kind of Irish Reconstructionist, and I generally self-identify as 'not Xian' or 'Pagan'. For me, 'Heathen' has allusive meanings of 'bad theology' (not that I think Heathens themselves have bad theology at all, just that it's my personal feeling about the word) so I don't use it. Personal preference only.

I think what people choose to self-identify is up to them. If someone wants to self-identify as 'The Glitter Fae of Niceness' I'm ok with that---I wouldn't think that they were Her Highness the Glitter, but I wouldn't say they couldn't call themselves that.

I do think that if someone uses the Humpty Dumpty Principal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumptyism

in Naming their Path then they should stand ready to define their usage without a lot of draaaaamaaaaa.

[Mjollnir]

I've heard both the Celtic & Germanic tribes refered to as being Heathens but when talking aout modern recons a lot of places emphasize that only the Germanic Recons are considered Heathens. But didn't the church call them both heathens & barbarians equally? I just don't hear of Celtic Recons refering to themelves as Heathens but then again I don't hang out with any or that section of MW often.

Just some online examples.....Mostly these are celtic recons calling themselves heathen but I don't see many Germanic recons enveloping Celtic recons with the term.

http://druidry.org/obod/druid-path/celts_saxons.html

An MSN group for Celtic Heathenry

http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/celticrevivalism.msnw

Someones Live Journal
Harp and Hammer:
Celtic and Germanic Heathen Dialogue
http://community.livejournal.com/harpandhammer/profile


http://www.witchvox.com/lx/dt_lx.html?a=usmi&id=27282



We have the worldview attached to our beliefs, it is a lot more than just who we worship and how, but also how we live our daily lives. But I didnt need to tell you that....:viking: :cheers:

[Hangatyr 13]

When I say the word "Heathen", I'm generally refering to people who follow the old Germanic religion. I have all the respect in the world for Celtic Reconstructionism, but I don't consider myself to be a co-religionist with Celtic Recons. With so many Heathens all worshipping the same gods but calling themselves so many different things, the word "Heathen" is all that unites us. Besides, the word "Heathen" is of Germanic origin, not Celtic. This is yet another reason I prefer it over the word "pagan".

[Seren_]

To me the word heathen is so related to Germanic religion that I've never really considered applying the term to myself. I sometimes jokingly refer to 'my heathen ways', but only in the sense of non-Christian, which is what people I know in real life understand it to mean. On boards like this one, I would assume the term to have a specific cultural (Germanic) value, unless the person specifically stated otherwise.

[_Banbha_]

I've heard both the Celtic & Germanic tribes refered to as being Heathens but when talking aout modern recons a lot of places emphasize that only the Germanic Recons are considered Heathens. But didn't the church call them both heathens & barbarians equally? I just don't hear of Celtic Recons refering to themelves as Heathens but then again I don't hang out with any or that section of MW often.

Just some online examples.....Mostly these are celtic recons calling themselves heathen but I don't see many Germanic recons enveloping Celtic recons with the term.

http://druidry.org/obod/druid-path/celts_saxons.html

An MSN group for Celtic Heathenry

http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/celticrevivalism.msnw

Someones Live Journal
Harp and Hammer:
Celtic and Germanic Heathen Dialogue
http://community.livejournal.com/harpandhammer/profile


http://www.witchvox.com/lx/dt_lx.html?a=usmi&id=27282


I do not identify myself as Heathen and it's part of CR to do such. It's not something that I've ever even heard discussed. There were certainly areas in Europe where to two cultures either blended or clashed, and the third link you mentioned might be an interesting source for that dialogue.

I do think to a Christian there is little difference between a Heathen and Pagan. My Grandmother would mutter about my Heathen ways on occasion. As skilly-nilly alluded too, there are a good number of CR's who don't care for the label 'Pagan' and the association with Neo-Pagan Wicca and new age stuff. You can count me among that group. Heathen is not an option I'd consider, anymore than Mayan or Slavic.

The first link was odd. A group calling themselves a Druid organization does not mean they are Celtic Reconstructionists. It probaly means anything but in my experience. The essay sounded a lot like the author was heavily influenced by John and Caitlin Matthews. It was an odd mismatch of ideas and opinion, and frankly, not a bit seemed even remotely connected to actual Celticism to me, and not just the part where he called Celts 'self-righteous' either. 8O

The second link, I dunno. He says it's not Reconstructionism or Traditionalism:

Celtic Heathen Revivalism is distinct from Celtic Reconstructionism and Celtic Traditionalism, and the ways in which it differs from these other two related movements are discussed in other pages here.

His rationale for using Celtic Heathen ("Sinnsearachdaidhean", lol, he was trying to simplify by using Heathen) is his own and doesn't reflect CR.

I think the third link is pretty self-explanatory: Harp and Hammer: Celtic and Germanic Heathen Dialogue (not 'Celtic Heathen'). The fourth one sounds like a social group for Traditionalist types from a number of cultures living in rural Northern Michigan. :)

[seapearls]

Besides, the word "Heathen" is of Germanic origin, not Celtic. This is yet another reason I prefer it over the word "pagan".

I found this..

http://www.erichshall.com/heathen.htm

Thanks to everyone who has replied here, as for the links they were just quick search results that one would find just typing it in the search engine if they were pondering the same thing.

I was pretty supportive of the term heathen but lately I've taken the fence on using it I think.

[StormVixen]

I don't consider myself to be a Heathen and have never come across anyone else on the Celtic side using the word.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

same here...

[Tanya]

WTF ! that is a word used to look down on other people for not believing what THEY believe. I don't consider ANYONE a heathen. CRIMINY!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

WTF ! that is a word used to look down on other people for not believing what THEY believe. I don't consider ANYONE a heathen. CRIMINY!

The word pagan is used that way too, do you not consider anyone to be pagan? Just because it is used as a way to look down on other people by one group, doesn't mean it can't be embraced or reclaimed by others. I can't imagine think of those who follow the northern traditions (wow is that a lengthy way to put it) as anything but Heathens.

I personally wouldn't use the term heathen to apply to my decidely gaelic religion and worldview, but I also won't use pagan for the reason that skilly and others cited here. I simply call my self a Gaelic polytheist. Seems a lot simpler and actually gets to the meat of what I am/believe.

[seapearls]

WTF ! that is a word used to look down on other people for not believing what THEY believe. I don't consider ANYONE a heathen. CRIMINY!

You are kidding right, I must not be catching the sarcasm here.

Thanks for your reply stormvixen.

[banondraig]

You are kidding right, I must not be catching the sarcasm here.

Thanks for your reply stormvixen.

perhaps the original poster did not read the whole thread?

[seapearls]

perhaps the original poster did not read the whole thread?

My thoughts exactly.

[Rick]

WTF ! that is a word used to look down on other people for not believing what THEY believe. I don't consider ANYONE a heathen. CRIMINY!
You should probably reconsider, 'cuz I AM a Heathen (please to note capital "H"). I am a proud member of various international Heathen organizations (one of which just happens to be headquartered in... are ya ready?... Australia), same as thousands (yep, thousands) of other Heathens.

[Philosophia]

You should probably reconsider, 'cuz I AM a Heathen (please to note capital "H"). I am a proud member of various international Heathen organizations (one of which just happens to be headquartered in... are ya ready?... Australia), same as thousands (yep, thousands) of other Heathens.

Really? Cool. Didn't know that.