What do you consider personal gain...

[lamoka]

Blessings..
I have heard it said that as a Wiccan, you must never do ritual or spellwork for personal gain..
what is considered personal gain..
good health
financial freedom
a better job
healing for someone you love (you gain by this)
and is it the same for non-Wiccan witches..
just looking for different perspectives??
what's yours?
Namaste
Lady Lamoka

[TheWomanMonster]

well I'm not Wiccan so my views are different.
I don't like to raise myself up (magically or mundanely) at the expense of others, but will do so if necessary. (example I really need a job, so I do a spell to make myself the prime candidate and don't care what happens to the other applicants).
I guess one could say that spells for others or the world in general would not be for personal gain. But then, when I look at that I see how the happiness and health of others would make me feel well. And how if the world was a better place it would be good for me too.

Really I don't know that I can see how you could cast ANY spell and not benefit from it personally in some way. Just my opinion of course, I just got here first... don't take my words as law.

[Cat]

I am Wiccan and I've never said any such thing. There is IMO nothing wrong with doing magic for yourself. I have, many times. What I don't do is accept money for magic or teaching magic. That's because, for me, the act of pricing something reduces its value, and turns a passion into a task. But that's just me.

[TheWomanMonster]

I am Wiccan and I've never said any such thing. There is IMO nothing wrong with doing magic for yourself. I have, many times. What I don't do is accept money for magic or teaching magic. That's because, for me, the act of pricing something reduces its value, and turns a passion into a task. But that's just me.

That makes a lot of sense. :)

[Xirian]

The only place I've heard that said was on the T.V. show Charmed.

All magic is for personal gain, just as wishing is for personal gain. Even if you're doing a healing spell, you are hoping that that person get's better. You are gaining something, even if it's just hope. I personally believe that spells are wishes with completely focused intent and the utilization of tools to help you remain focused on your intentions. But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure there are others.

[Tabbykitty]

healing for someone you love (you gain by this)
and is it the same for non-Wiccan witches..
just looking for different perspectives??
what's yours?


Hi Lamoka,

I've probably done ALL the "personal gain" stuff that you have mentioned in ur post. Ive used spells in my work, to help heal myself and my friends.... heck, I daresay Ive used spells even in gambling..... although to admit it in my country is something of a social faux pas.... even though all gamblers have their own stash of magical charms anyway. :lol:

I'm not a wiccan, so I cant really comment on the wiccan view.... although I have to say I have never yet heard a wiccan in my country say not to use spells for personal gain...... and yeah, they DO do a lot of spellcasting for their needs and wants......

I HAVE however heard psychics and holistic practitioners in my country talk about not using their powers for personal gain.... perhaps the new age community is where the notion came from....

Anyways, here's my own view on the whole personal gain issue......

I personally believe that the ability to cast spells is a gift from one's creator..... just like music, or cooking, or painting. I believe that people are given different gifts not only to help them fulfill their life purpose, but also as a practical means by which they can enhance their own life.

I mean, an artist can use his gifts to earn a living, so can a cook and a musician. I don't see why a person who can cast spells cant use his or her gift to help himself or herself get a job, or even cast spells for others and get paid for it.

The only thing that really arises as a concern for me is whether the spells I cast create results that might accumulated unwanted karma for me or start up an unwanted karmic cycle. The notion of karma, retribution and action-reaction consequence is a strong compulsion in my society that really makes people think twice before doing spells that create harm to oneself or to others.

Other than that..... there's really no rule against casting spells for personal gain.

In fact, I DO really encourage people who cast spells upon the request or plea of others to CHARGE for ever spell cast. (Yes, this definitely puts it into the "personal gain" category :)) Why? Well, simply because if the practitioner doesn't do that, he is energetically sacrificing himself, giving his gifts away.... for free..... to everyone he meets..... THIS ACTION, and not casting spells for personal gain.... DOES create an unwanted, parasitic karmic cycle...... and THAT is the cycle of sacrifice and lack.

If you do this one too many times, you'll find that more and more people will come to you for free spells and energetic work. AND...... more often than not, these people WILL NOT be grateful to you for helping them... in fact, some might turn around and bite you.......

How do I know? Well, I was like this once.

It got SOOOOOOOO bad that people were coming to me for everything and always expecting freebies.... and quite a lot of them even turned around and spit in my face! Financially, my income suffered and it got so bad, I couldn't even find a proper job despite having the right experience and qualifications.

In recent years, I learned that by giving away too many freebies, I am creating a karmic cycle that creates lack in all areas in my life. I have since learned how to clear up that karmic cycle and have since then had a strict practice of charging for everything.... absolutely everything.... including readings and consultations. And I never give discounts.... no matter what kind of work I do, be it in my profession or as a magic practitioner...... At first, I kept getting people who wanted freebies and discounts..... after I said "NO FREEBIES!" for like a few months, they dropped out of my life and I found new people who were willing to pay for quality goods and services.

My life is now significantly improved. And yes, I am working. :bigblue:

I explained this in detail in this post < http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2874229&highlight=abundance#post2874229 >

So yeah, I am all for spellcasting for personal gain...... I don't buy into the whole, "cast only for personal gain.... or never charge for spells cast" hogwash....... it just hinders the caster from making use of his/her gifts to improve his/her own life and creates karma that improverishes the practitioner.

[Simply Puzzled]

Blessings..
I have heard it said that as a Wiccan, you must never do ritual or spellwork for personal gain..
[...]
and is it the same for non-Wiccan witches..
just looking for different perspectives??
what's yours?
Namaste
Lady Lamoka

This is not the majority opinion among Wiccans. Certainly it was/is not the opinion of Gardner, Sanders, Valiente, either of the Farrars, Crowley (Vivane), Crowther, Lipp, etc, etc. As for non-Wiccan witches, it is not the opinion of anyone I know in Feri, TIW, or any other branch of witchcraft.

[Meadhbh]

I'm not wicca but heres my take on it. You can't go around doing spells only for others. Okay, you could but its not realstic nor is a healthy attitude to have. Like other people have mentioned there are times in life where you need to win and if magic helps you out then to bad for the other people. I'm sure if they could they would do the same thing to you.

[lamoka]

Although I don't know how to include quotes I found a similar discussion by doing a search of posts for personal gain and found a lengthy one in the COT class COT Magical Defense.. some were against and some were for.. I have to admit it seems odd to me that if given the gift of magic that it would be forbidden fruit, so to say, to better your life by it therefore honoring God/dess in example by the way our lives are lived and thriving by their grace.
It would be a testament to their love for me in reflection of the blessings they have bestowed by using the gifts they gave me to their greatest positive potential.. I also do believe in giving freely of what I have IN BALANCE to what I require "payment" for.. and it need not be monetary.. but as in all things in my life there must be balance.. I think that would satisfy any karmic deficit don't you..
namaste
Lady Lamoka

[Darbla]

This thread reminded me of a quote I saved because it struck me as particularly hilarious. And true:

She was one of those people afraid to do good for fear of doing harm, who took it all so seriously that they'd constipate themselves with moral anquish before granting the wish of a single ant. - from "Witches Abroad" (Lilith about Desiderata Hollow)

[Keldra]

I'm only wary of using magic for my personal gain at someone else's expense.

For instance, if you're down on your luck financially, asking for job opportunities to come your way is fine and dandy. What is magic for if not to be used to improve your life, and others'? But asking to land a specific job would be more questionable, as it might mean someone else has to vacate the position for you... Basically, if no one stands to be hurt from the situation (such as wishing a friend better -- both you and the friend gain) then I wouldn't tie yourself in knots about it.

[mtpathy]

Just in the context of spiritualism/mysticism im of the opinion that the simple fact of practicing this is in general a very selfish thing too do.
I sometimes spend so much time working on myself and finding my own flaws that i sometimes forget that theres a world outside and people in it.

[Rick]

EVERYTHING that an individual gains is SOMEONE'S loss, however the key here isn't balance, it's fair (not necessarily equal) excahange. If you want something, you give something to get it. It's really pretty simple, you can have pretty much anything you want as long as you're willing/able to pony up.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I am Wiccan and I've never said any such thing. There is IMO nothing wrong with doing magic for yourself. I have, many times. What I don't do is accept money for magic or teaching magic. That's because, for me, the act of pricing something reduces its value, and turns a passion into a task. But that's just me.I agree completely. I have no problem with doing magic to find a good job or health or anything. (And I consider myself Wiccan.) I also agree about the negative effects of charging for magic. Twice for the pagan group in college I did Tarot readings for donations. It bothered me a lot, because, even though it was a service, it was something I would be willing to do for free... and it was too close to doing magic for money... which just seems unethical, IMO.

[Keldra]

EVERYTHING that an individual gains is SOMEONE'S loss, however the key here isn't balance, it's fair (not necessarily equal) excahange. If you want something, you give something to get it. It's really pretty simple, you can have pretty much anything you want as long as you're willing/able to pony up.

I have to cringe at the thought of living in a world that worked like that. It's my personal feeling that it would be cheapening my religion to treat magic or ritual as a form of celestial bartering -- and if it rang true to me that someone had to lose for me to gain in this way, I would probably be an atheist. I think that with pure intent it's perfectly possible to generate good will for yourself and those you love without having to take something away from another person... what's to take? There's no finite limit on the amount of happiness that's available in the world. :)

To each their own, though!

[Tanya]

I don't see magic as really capable of providing petty personal gain such as 'spells to make you rich" give me a hugging Break!

magic is the seeking to aline oneself with the generative forces of the universe. You do not change the universe to suit you, you cahnge you to be one with the universe, and then 'magic' happens, you discover you have what you truely need, you discover the word 'enough' is a blessing.

Again and again chances have aligned to suit me personally not because i sought to force them to be so, but simply that I opened myself to hear where I WAS to place myself to recieve.

[~Elise~]

Okay--what makes everyone think that the Universe doesn't have enough abundance for everyone? What makes you think that for you to get some, someone else has to lose?
Universe is limitless... there is plenty for everyone... you just have to ask. That's it. Ask. Be open to receiving.

Check out The Secret. www.thesecret.tv (http://www.thesecret.tv)

The Law of Attraction--that is the secret. What you think about is what you attract... you think about bills--you get more bills. You think about abundance-you get abundance. simple (and that hard) It is in YOUR hands, not anyone else's.

Elise

[lamoka]

Well put!!!
would love to know more about this movie..
anybody have any input..
is it God/dess based or otherwise..

[Rick]

I have to cringe at the thought of living in a world that worked like that. It's my personal feeling that it would be cheapening my religion to treat magic or ritual as a form of celestial bartering -- and if it rang true to me that someone had to lose for me to gain in this way, I would probably be an atheist. I think that with pure intent it's perfectly possible to generate good will for yourself and those you love without having to take something away from another person... what's to take? There's no finite limit on the amount of happiness that's available in the world. :)

To each their own, though!
You already live in that world, Keldra. Happiness is in your mind & heart, it doesn't come from anywhere outside you. No person or deity or magic can give you any amount. If one wants to be happy, one has to be willing to do whatever it takes to make oneself happy. It's about sweatin' for it & makin' it happen, not prayin' for it & hopin' it happens. As to 'celestial bartering', I only have experience with the gods of the Folkway, and they don't give anything to anyone unless they've earned it. There are many forms of sacrifice.

[Wild Wood]

I'm only wary of using magic for my personal gain at someone else's expense..


I tend to agree, although (as a Wiccan) I would say that intentions are more rewarding than worrying whether or not your being selfish.

There are ALWAYS consequences to every action, even in the material world - The question you always have to ask is not 'Am i doing this for me?' but 'Can I live with the consequence?'

Using this as a rule of thumb and reminding yourself of the Wiccan Rede (to those that do!) is enough contemplation.

In my experience, there has been very little harm in using spells for my personal gain - although in one area where I have gained, a short while later I usually lose out in something else! :lol:

[morganxpage]

Not doing magic for personal gain is generally a fluffy statement, and I say: cut the fluff! All magick is for personal gain, even non-material magick. That's what magick and religion are all about: gain. If you aren't gaining something from your magickal practice or religion, why are you bothering with it? Because someone told you that you need to suck up to the Gods? Even that's for personal gain.

Many people twist the concept of personal gain into something undesirable, that somehow extreme asceticism and denial of personal needs is the only road to the Holy. These people usually have no idea what true asceticism is about (a removal of distraction, not a denial of personal gain, since they are gaining spiritually from the removal of distraction).

If you aren't using your magick to help yourself and those around you, then you shouldn't be using magick, period. Personal gain is helpful to yourself and your community.

While I'm not Wiccan, I am somewhat well-versed in all things Wiccan, and I can tell you without doubt that magick for personal gain is not only OK in Wicca, in traditional practices (ie, Gardnerism) it is ESSENTIAL to the practice of the Religion. There's been a lot of fluffy people trying to divorce magick from Wicca, and I believe that to do that is to neuter the beautiful religion of some of it's most essential tenents.

[Morr]

You can do all the spells in the world to gain money.
But no matter what you do, you wont find 100s of dollar bills sitting in your wallet the next day.

Energy manipulation and intent are great, and can boost your chances of stumbling upon money/financial oppratunities.

But you have to WORK outside of the ""magical"" world for it. You have to seek help, look for jobs, sell things on ebay, etc.

Same with health.
You can do any spell for having the best health in the world or for healing. But if you dont go to a doctor and a medical problem presists, your spell wont make it go away just because you said ""so mote it be"".
You gotta go to the doctor too.

Its all about the mind and the will.
But nothing is going to come easily to you if you dont work hard on the physical plane to encourage it to come.

In that sense, ""personal gain"" can be viewed as a positive thing -- Since you gained it not just through the spell or energy work, but you kept on doing/seeking ""regular"" means to accomplish your goal/find a solution/get what you want.

[Teresa]

Okay--what makes everyone think that the Universe doesn't have enough abundance for everyone? What makes you think that for you to get some, someone else has to lose?
Universe is limitless... there is plenty for everyone... you just have to ask. That's it. Ask. Be open to receiving.

Check out The Secret. www.thesecret.tv (http://www.thesecret.tv)

The Law of Attraction--that is the secret. What you think about is what you attract... you think about bills--you get more bills. You think about abundance-you get abundance. simple (and that hard) It is in YOUR hands, not anyone else's.

Elise :fofftopic
Great Post! This is one of the reasons I always suggest positive affirmations to people. The Power of Your Own Mind is awesome. One can wake up and say this is going to be a great day, I am looking forward to the adventures that will take place. One can also say this is gonna be a crappy day I don't feel like venturing out.

Sometimes you have to change your perception or even perspective about things. Doing so will be an asset to you in the long run. Thinking positively can help with your health as well. The Mind , Body, and Spirit working together is awesome. Dwelling on negative can make you sick and even turn into depression these things many times relate to the other.

[David19]

Personally, i've only heard the not doing magic for personal gain on Charmed, not in real life, i can't see why you can't do magic for money, sex, love, jobs, etc.

Afterall, the ancient mages/sorcerors/witches/adapts/magicians/whatever, etc would have probably started magic for personal gain, they'd probably laugh their asses off if someone told them not to cast magic for personal gain.

I think it's only the New Age movement which might have added this, occult books, pre-New Age, had lots of magic for personal gain.

[~Elise~]

Well put!!!
would love to know more about this movie..
anybody have any input..
is it God/dess based or otherwise..

Go check it out for yourself. (it is Universe based). there's a book, there's a movie, there's an audiobook... it's out on youtube in its entirety (or at least it used to be)

YOU have to put the effort into it...just like you do with anything else.

Elise