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Morr
February 3rd, 2007, 11:22 AM
So I am no Thelemite nor Ceramonialist by any means.

I am an Irish Recon/Polytheist who likes to learn about everythig and anything out there. My current study is Thelema and CM -- Again, just for ""fun"" and the scholarly part of it, I have not attempted nor at this point plan to attempt any CM or initiation to Thelema of any sort.

My husband is big on Crowley and Kaballah, and has originally sparked my intrest in the subject, as he is the same as I -- Learning for understanding of other philosophies and gaining knowlege. He doesnt really practice CM or Thelema.

After this long intro, here is my, probably crazy, ""newbie"" manifesto/questions. I am just interested in Ceramonialists and Thelemites' answers, thoughts, etc. Or anyone, in fact, who is like me and just like to read and explore: (this relates specifically to Crowley, as lately I have read and learned mostly about his stuff, and I know I have lots more to go).

I read Crowley's works (some, not all, admitingly). I find 95% of it to be an overly active imagination, humor and Biblical ""rip off"" with a taste of Ancient Egyptian lore, words and myths.

The other 5% is the truth, or his truth. I understand and actually support his truth and the hidden concepts of it (not just through my own reading, thinking and meditating on the subjects, but through discuission with my husband as well, who has studied Crowley inside and out).

I feel I dont need to be this badass super experienced Ceramonialist to understand these truths that Crowley speaks of. I might not have SEEN it myself with my own eyes/mind/spirit, but I have always known these concepts existed from an instinct, not from Crowley's work. It makes sense to me, and I accept his philosophy.

I find that a lot of the super secret Latin and Hebrew words, letters, etc -- Are just a cover up, just make believe and put a haze onto the real meanings of a small fraction of these symbols.

Having studied Latin in college, and being a fluent Hebrew reader/writer/speaker, I suppose its easier for me to understand. I also know a bit of Kaballah, so I guess again, its easier for me to comprehend and understand a bit better whats going on. So I might have an advantage there.

I'm probably missing a bit here and there, I know I probably didnt get his whole theory 100%.

So, if a simple little Pagan like me who read Crowley's work and discuissed it a bit with her husband, who does have the advantage of the languages Crowley used in his books -- Can understand almost completely what he was talking about, can figure out his little riddles and understand his revelation -- What IS the role of Thelema?

Aside from gaining magical skills, which I know I dont posses, but I know I CAN posses easily if I worked on it (which at this point in time, I am not sure if I will or not).

I dont mean to be a snob, I am just genuinely wondering, what else is there to Thelema aside for unveiling Crowley's philosophy and trying to live by it?

I've always known inside me that I've had a purpose to my existance and life. Purpose = True Will. It is there whether I like it or not, whether I am aware of it or not. Everyone has it.

Hitler's purpose was to cause havoc and destruction, Caesar Augustus' purpose was to bring the Pax Romana, Jesus' purpose was to inspire Christianity, etc etc etc. From the biggest names in history to the average Joe in New York City or in a villiage out in Africa. We all have it -- Big or small, influencial on the world or influencial on 2 people.

So what has Crowley uncovered?

I am not sure yet if I buy the whole Age of Isis, Age of Osiris, Age of Horus. I am still contemplating it. I would love to hear others' thoughts on this matter specifically.

Also, yes, we all posses Divinity within us. This was obvious to me as well before, I think there is a spark of Divinity in all of us and if we want, and if we dedicate ourselves we CAN reach higher levels of awareness, existance and enlightenment -- In various ways and forms, not just through Ceramonial Magic, in my opinion.

As well as the sacred union between a man and a woman -- Creation of a new life, creation of energy, an ecstacy, new awarenece. This exists in quite a few religions/spiritualities, I believe. Not that same sex unions are wrong, but I can understand on a spiritual level, why the physical union of a male and a female can be viewed and IS mystical.

So what HAS Crowley uncovered?

Or am I just super smart? LOL I dont think I am.

I understand that to a lot of people who are closed minded in regards to their religion (mostly Aberahamic religions, but not all followers, of course) --- This can be absolutely new (and blasphamous?) revelations.

And prehaps to someone like me and others out there, who have been open minded and aware of stuff that is out there, or who have studied spiritualities and their own spirituality -- This might be old news, or the obvious.

What HAS Crowley revealed to us, then? Is it really secret knowlege? Or was he the only one with true guts to go ahead and put this out there, in writing?

Bethra
February 3rd, 2007, 11:50 AM
I personally feel you must take into consideration the times when Crowley was writting. Coming out of a very repressed time people were not encouraged to speak out on their true will unless it followed the main stream. Magick in general was a secretive matter only discussed in initiated circles. I think a lot of Crowleys riddles were for this reason. He spoke only to those who had the will and interest to understand his words. Throughout history prophecy has been delivered in the same way. The Bible speaks in parables, stories not ment to be heard and understood by everyone, only by those who were ready to recive the message at the time. With hind sight it is possible for the messages to reach a much wider audience. As we evolve spiritually more and more of us become able to hear and understand the messages.

I think Crowley had a lot to offer back in his day and I also feel he still has a lot to offer for those who his works speak to however I think his message has a lot less impact now than it did then.

Morr
February 3rd, 2007, 11:56 AM
You bring up an excellent point, Bethra, thank you!

This does make sense.

We are lucky to be living in an age where all this information can be found on the internet, and more groups of people are open and willing to talk and explore such topics.

I understand that just reading and uncovering the riddles is very different than actually taking it to another level -- The level of magic -- And experiencing what Crowley talks about.

So seems like nowadays, its more about the experience and the connection to one's True Will AND Divinity, more than trying to figure out the little riddles, jokes and messages Crowley mish-moshed into his books and writings.

RainInanna
February 3rd, 2007, 12:18 PM
I have to ask though, how much good was done by implementing all the confusing riddles? Was it simply a blinder to weed out those who weren't determined? Was it meant only to shock and confound? And if so, what source can be trusted to help illuminate the meanings and principles of Thelema without all the confusion?

I have to be honest - my problem is that I can't stay into Crowley's writings long enough to gain much from them. I have certainly tried repeatedly and probably will again, and perhaps that I prefer not to is only an indication that I am not "worthy" to be a Thelemite.

Anyway, I think you've brought up an excellent discussion and I look forward to hearing from some of the experts in this forum.

Morr
February 3rd, 2007, 01:07 PM
Well, I feel that for me, the extra knowlege of Latin and Hebrew helped. For example:

Abrahadabra -- The word Crowley mentions in his writings as a powerful tool -- Well, LOL, its actually pronounced --

Abrakadabra

Abrakadabra like the Disney witchy word! *shakes wand and spreads dust everywhere!*

Well, its in Hebrew, actually, with an Arameic twist:

Abra KaDrabra = אברא כדברא

I shall create as I speak (literal rough translation).

Or, using words to create something.

Which works well with Genisis and the concept of creation through Y-H-V-H: He created the world and the heavens and everything: Through words. He said it, and it was.

So the power of words are so very strong, words are the magician's tools (amongst some other things).

Its little things like this that aided me to understand more of Crowley's concepts, along with discuissions with my husband about the various topics.

I am open to learn more, that I know I am missing, so I am really hoping the Thelemites and Ceramonialists of the forums will see this thread and contribute! I want to learn! :)

By the way, the concept of Abrakadabra is much much MUCH older than Crowley, and he was not the only one to figure it out. Its an Ancient Jewish Mystical concept.

RainInanna
February 3rd, 2007, 01:40 PM
Yes I've noticed the power of words is very important both within Judaism and Kemeticism, which I find fascinating, especially as it can be applied within magic for sigils, amulets, chants, etc.

I don't think there needs to be a "Dummies" Thelema, just that ideas such as the one you have posted here are much more thought-provoking than riddles sometimes, at least IMHO.

Bethra
February 5th, 2007, 01:16 AM
The other thing you have to bare in mind with Crowley, though he was genius of his time he was also egotistical and batshit insane *chcukles*. When I was first getting into Crowley I would get irritated with his riddles and spent a lot of time thinking he could have written it all a lot clearer. When I considered the nature of the spoken word of the time and the nature of the sociaty he was coming out of I changed my mind and realised he was actually speeking out with a lot more clarity than most of his time period. He and the Golden Dawn fell out on this speaking out business on a number of occations, them feeling it should be a mystery cult thing but Crowley believing the information should be out there for those with the ability to find it.

Morr
February 5th, 2007, 09:59 AM
What I noticed, is that his riddles are really very simple. We only think they are super complicated LOL like with most riddles, I guess!

My husband has been a huge help. We have great discuissions sometimes about the topic, and I am glad he is helping me out. He is excited that I am exploring Crowley as he has a few years back because even though he is not a Thelemite or Ceramonialist, he loves Crowley's philosophy and it works for him.

I find that I like Crowley as I figure out his stuff and as I read the stories about him.

Its very interesting to me.

I just wish more experienced Thelemites and Ceramonialists would come into this thread and post! I want to hear more voices and opinions and experiences!

RainInanna
February 5th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Yep, I have to wonder where have all the Ceremonialists gone! Certainly there's info available out there but I think this is one time where discussing it really brings out useful opinions and ideas you can't get just from reading info.

Dawa Lhamo
February 10th, 2007, 01:04 AM
Well, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a ceremonialist either, but I do like Crowley's work... what I've read of it, anyway. I particularly liked Diary of a Drug Fiend... that's probably as close to "Thelema for Dummies" as it should get. I don't know. I think it's both unfortunate and fortunate that Crowley was so crazy... I mean, it seems as if he obviously enjoyed freaking people out. And that really serves to weed out... passing fanciers. But on the other hand, there's so much to sift through with his work... I don't know. He was obviously very complex, and I'll leave it at that. ^_^

plumedsnake
February 11th, 2007, 11:12 AM
These are damn good questions that Morr has raised. But as regards the victorian age:


I personally feel you must take into consideration the times when Crowley was writting. Coming out of a very repressed time people were not encouraged to speak out on their true will unless it followed the main stream. Magick in general was a secretive matter only discussed in initiated circles.

Victorian age is very interesting because it is a great example of a curious phenomenon in human psychology and social psychology. The fact is that Humans will always find a way to be humans and act human regardless of the superficial dictates of society. Having a rigid repressive moral system only causes hypocrisy and feeds a dark underbelly of the psyche/society. Consider these facts about the victorian age:

This was the age where the fascination with the paranormal peaked. There were seances left right and center, and this was the age of the Madame Blavatsky's etc.
1 in 60 households in Victorian england was a brothel. An adult victorian male would on average visit a brothel 2.4 times a week.
When society/individual psyche is stratified like this, the majority of social activity is not spoken about in public. It does not enter the media but that doesn't mean that it doesn't occur. Crowley was very much a product of that Victorian age. All he did was dare to speak of what everyone else was doing but in privacy.
Isn't this true of every society that, like Jung says, it has it's persona and then it's shadow. The shadow is a very major force in every society/culture.

plumedsnake
February 11th, 2007, 11:22 AM
The other thing you have to bare in mind with Crowley, . . . he was also egotistical and batshit insane *chcukles*.

And here is one of the issues with crowley. Apart from the fact that, as has been mentioned, he never actually said anything new but just served a mishmash of various religious cults that he'd dabbled in, I think that a religious path driven by egotism is bound to end in tears. Magick without tears? Whatever you say mister!

I find a lot of the things that Crowley said very suspect, although I liked Book 4 a lot when I was a kid. Most Jewist Kabbalists though would deny that crowley was a proper kabbalist, but then they don't think that the golden dawn guys were that authentic either.

plumedsnake
February 11th, 2007, 11:25 AM
So what has Crowley uncovered?
and IS mystical.

So what HAS Crowley uncovered?

Or am I just super smart? LOL I dont think I am.
old news, or the obvious.

What HAS Crowley revealed to us, then? Is it really secret knowlege? ?

Damn good questions?