Does Your Religion Make You A Good Person?

[Flar's Freyja]

I work with people who have abused their children or have committed other socially undesirable behaviors. I have gone through countless interviews with clients who invest a lot of energy in trying to convince me that they just couldn't have done these things because "I'm a Christian."

I have no intention of Christian-bashing, but on the way home from one such interview this evening with an alleged pedophile who did the same song and dance, I started thinking about what might happen if a pagan were accused of such an act and responded the same way. Realistically, we all know that society would not accept "I'm a tree-hugging pagan" as a defense for committing heinous acts.

Something I've never really thought about before and I'm interested in others' comments.

[manstranger]

I can see how they might use it in that way, but i think they're not really communitcating it across in the best way. If someone said that to me and I had your job, i would probably take it to mean something like 'Doing that is against my religious morals', although I might take it as 'I am incapable of doing that because I am _________' depending.

Theres a bunch of things it could mean, ya know? Its all a matter of phrasing, and in that possistion I would probably take the shorter way out by saying I'm whatever-whatever instead of saying on of the latter. Its a labeling dealy, i guess.

Point being, to answer your question, no, being Christian doesn't mean you can't do something. It might mean you are less likely to do something, tho.

If i where Christian and didn't do something like that and was accused of it, however, i could deffinatly see myself saying that to portray myself as "the good christian".

That involved a fair ammount of rambling.

[Azure]

I don't think anyone's belief system makes them, by default, a good or bad person. It's all about one's actions.

However, in the current political climate, it has become trendy for a certain variety of Christian to use the word to imply moral superiority to other forms of religion, including what they consider to be less valid forms of Christianity. Not surprisingly, that sort of comment has now an implied undercurrent of hypocrisy, given the behavior of prominent members of those branches of the faith.

There are certainly truly religious people out there who are good, just and honorable of all faiths. But it all too easy for those who pay lip service, or who twist their beliefs to use them as an excuse for bigotry and ignorance, to make claims of religion to defend themselves.

I'd be frustrated too, if I were you. But I think it's a trendy defense right now.

[NightSkye]

i don`t think being any religion makes you good or bad its what you do in your life and how you treat people that makes you either a good or bad person someone can be good person and have no religion at all

[bluebear]

I dont buy that story. That's a crock. A cop out. It's like saying that the devil made me do it. Total hog wash. Their actions are the result of willful misbehavior and nothing more. They have no legitimate excuse. I'm sorry but I have no sympathy what so ever for people who commit these types of crimes. We should all have zero tolerance for these crimes and absolutely no sympathy for those who commit them.
Blessings
Bluebear

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by NightSkye
i don`t think being any religion makes you good or bad its what you do in your life and how you treat people that makes you either a good or bad person someone can be good person and have no religion at all

Yes - spirituality is not what you believe, it is how you live.

The major irritant in this issue is that the great majority of these people DID commit these acts. There is legal and medical evidence to support the allegations.

Yes, it's a poor, trendy defense. What I'm not hearing from most of them is "I love my child and would never hurt them." They are more concerned with presenting themselves in a positive light with all of the focus on themselves. I guess this should make sense to me because this type of individual is very self-centered.

[LadyWinter]

To me a religious system of any kind inherent in a person means they are at least trying to live by a moral code IF they follow the beliefs of that system. A TRUE christian would not harm a child, it is against their beliefs. A TRUE Pagan would not harm a child it is against their beliefs. A TRUE Jew would not and so on and so forth. When people dont practice the tenents of a religion and then try to use it as a shield I often wonder.....Is it their own blindness, i.e. I am a christian so I didnt do it...or their own stupidity i.e. I really didnt do it...it was that Teletubby again.

Slan Astar,
LadyWinter

[Rada]

Hello,Freyja,
I am going to become a social worker and such problems are known here too.
Well,I think in general it doesn't matter what your religion is -there may be mentally sick people in any religion.But in my opinion Christians are the most hipocrate.They just set goals for them that in no way can be acheived (like I've never seen a person who never violated the10 Commendments- AND THEREFORE I'VE NEVER SEEN A TRUE CHRISTIAN)So they know they have and will have sins and if they come to church and confess and the like they'll be forgiven.
I'm realy worried about that and in don't have any ideas how to deal with it.
It's painful but necessary putting the stress on it.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Well the people you work with Freyja are only using religion to hide behind. It is much easier then owning up to the things they did.
It's not a religion that makes a person bad. Unless it's like a cult that brainwashes you or something. Religion isn't really a person (well, actually it isn't a person at all) so it's like blaming the dog. It can't defend itself.

[Flar's Freyja]

It is VERY difficult to deal with, sometimes I wonder if I'm making faces at them! Ethically, I have to really be aware of myself and my reactions to these types of protests and statements. I've learned to ignore it and show no reaction, and move on to something else.

If you're currently in school and have good teachers, they will spend a lot of time on self-awareness and avoiding making value judgements with your clients. I've been in the field for ten years, and even when we develop good skills to do this, you will still have personal reactions. This is okay, as long as you never share them or discuss them with your clients. You can discuss them with a supervisor or a co-worker. Or you can fume privately for a while on your way home.........

Although I can count them on one hand, I do know some true Christians. They are people who are not perfect, but do live their lives according to their spiritual beliefs and do the best they can, as the rest of us do. I admire them greatly. But it is sad to say, that at least in my community, I seem to know a lot of pagans who are more Christian than most of the Christians I know.

Good luck with your career. It is stressful but also has its rewards.

[Laiste]

People will always try to hide behind their religion. It is a pathetic attempt to cover up for their mistakes or misdoings. It makes me very angry to hear these things...it's disrespectful to that particular religion and what it stands for. To say that religion makes a person better...well in a general sense no it does not...but on an individual level it can make someone a better person. For me finding my path in Paganism has made me a better person in many ways...but mostly for the simple reason that I was lacking what I needed in my life. This situation can apply to any religion if it is right for the individual.

[Flar's Freyja]

I can't even begin to imagine a pagan using that as a defense, but can you just imagine the reaction if one did?

I am also a Certified Sexual Abuse Specialist, and we learned in training that there has never been one truly substantiated case of ritual abuse. Interesting, isn't it?

[shnen]

I have a few opinions on this...

my family is die hard Christians, (pentecostal:eek:) and if they weren't like that I know they'd be in jail, so religion has helped give them the borders and structure that they NEED to be good people.

As for myself, I think yes, people do hide behind it, using it as an excuse for doing horrific acts against other living things. Growing up bouncing from church to church in a small town with a single mom 20 years ago, when it was not accepted, I got to see the mean side of a lot of "religous" people.

As for me personally, I hope to continually grow and expand for myself and for Wicca. I don't think for me that it dictates who I am, but we are merely a reflection of eachother.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by shnen
I have a few opinions on this...

As for myself, I think yes, people do hide behind it, using it as an excuse for doing horrific acts against other living things. Growing up bouncing from church to church in a small town with a single mom 20 years ago, when it was not accepted, I got to see the mean side of a lot of "religous" people.

Sad, isn't it? I was the single mom who was the target in one small, cliquish community that we lived in. It seemed I never really noticed it when I lived on the east coast and it was quite a culture shock when I moved here. In my small town, with a population of 12,000, there are literally 100 churches and one of them takes up three city blocks.

I believe that a spiritual base is very important for anyone and it doesn't have to be a religious denomination. I respect and admire the individuals I know that truly try to live their faith. I have been so supportive of a charismatic friend that she has no clue that I'm pagan, because I don't feel that I can come out of the closet with her. She is a beautiful person whose light really shines. When we speak I wish her a God Bless, and I am sincere. I took my kids to church and Sunday school when they were little, I was even a bus monitor for a few years. I am out of the closet with them and they accept my path although none of them have chosen it. I see the early teachings reflected in them, and I'm just glad that they have some sort of spiritual foundation.

Another annoying aspect is that most of these folks are NOT Christians - and seem to think that professing that they are should be a factor in my evaluation of them. It's rather blasphemous.

[Myst]

We come from a religion where your actions are everything and your words are nothing.

Some people come from a religion where if you've acted badly all you have to do is say the right words and do the right penance.

So yes to them being the right religion, accepting the right God into their heart, makes them a good person.

That doesn't make them bad, just different. What makes some bad is the actions they do against human law and against natural law.

Be assured they will receive their karma and learn their lessons just as we will do the same. It is not ours to judge their religion anymore then it is theirs to judge us.

Their actions though? If they don't receive justice through human law, and even if they do, they will receive their own karma.

[flar7]

sometimes karma is too damn slow!......heheheh

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by flar7
sometimes karma is too damn slow!......heheheh

'Tis true, but I usually get to see it happen before I close their case.

I give them PLENTY of rope with which to hang themselves!:bigredgri

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Myst
We come from a religion where your actions are everything and your words are nothing.

Some people come from a religion where if you've acted badly all you have to do is say the right words and do the right penance.

So yes to them being the right religion, accepting the right God into their heart, makes them a good person.

That doesn't make them bad, just different. What makes some bad is the actions they do against human law and against natural law.



Excellent points. I don't think I'm communicating the issue clearly, so I'll try again. The majority of the individuals that I am referring to usually don't even attend church, or only started when their crisis started. I'm not referring to Christians as a whole. I'm referring only to the clients who come into my office for services. My clients attempt to use religion to present a positive picture of themselves, and I believe that it has a lot to do with this being the Bible Belt. They assume that if they tell me that they're Christian, I'll have a more positive impression of them. The individuals that I am referring to are attempting to use Christianity as a front. I'm not referring to their religious beliefs or practices.

Most of my clients are very manipulative individuals. The client who inspired me to start this thread was seen first and appeared to be very sincere and convincing. When I saw his wife the following day, I found that there were a lot of things he hadn't mentioned, including the arrest report!

[Witchy Cowgirl]

:( It is sad when people hide behind the Christian label and it give us a bad name. It's really irriating and even causes some of us to withdraw from the church. It makes my heart heavy. My father-in-law for instance won't go to church because he feels everyone in thier church is hipa (wish I could spell:T) hip-a-critical.
All we can do for people like these are to pray for them. Pray that they will see what they are doing is wrong. Pray that they too can find a path that they can follow and will help them to lead a better life. Pray for healing. Because even though it may come slowly at times....What goes 'round comes 'round.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Freyja
Excellent points. I don't think I'm communicating the issue clearly, so I'll try again...

The point was that yes it's not something Pagans would be able to do as far as society and law.

Tho I've seen 'em do it in personal matters, ie. "Oh I'm a Wiccan, I wouldn't do that", or "Oh I'm a white witch, I don't do that stuff" :rolleyes:

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Myst


The point was that yes it's not something Pagans would be able to do as far as society and law.

Tho I've seen 'em do it in personal matters, ie. "Oh I'm a Wiccan, I wouldn't do that", or "Oh I'm a white witch, I don't do that stuff" :rolleyes:

:T

That would be another interesting thread, wouldn't it! ;)

[Danustouch]

For the record, there HAVE been some cases of Wiccans committing pedophilia, or other forms of Child abuse. The reason why Wiccans cannot hide behind their label, in such cases, is because there are still so many stereotypes associated with the religion. And..unfortunately, wiccans don't need to bring up their label as a defense for their actions, because the lawyer's and the media do it anyway. There was a case a few years back, in Connecticut, where a woman was accused of molesting a teenaged boy. The media started calling it the "Witch Trial" almost immediately. The subject of Wicca was brought up immediately, because the victim in the case, claimed that she molested him in a ritual. Once that claim came out, the media, the Christian Conservatives, and the curious public had a field day with it. Wiccans cannot use the label of our religion to hide behind in such cases, because mainstream society still doesn't know much about what wicca really is. They don't have knowledge of Wiccan beliefs. Most people only know what they've heard through media, and through biased individuals.

In the aforementioned case, it was the reluctant task of the defense attourneys, to try to inform the jury, and the public about what Wicca really is about, and that the Jury could not make a ruling about the accused individuals guilt, just based upon her religious path. A difficult task, to say the least, because people stubbornly cling to their stereotypes, and ideals.

For the record, the accused was convicted, and did serve time. If I recall correctly. I do not remember wether or not it was proven that she used a ritual to commit her crime, or not. But...to say the least, it was very damaging to the Wiccan and Pagan community in CT as a whole.

So...I guess what I'm trying to say, is that it is much easier for people of mainstream religions to claim their path as a smoke screen for their actions, because mainstream society has stereotypes and ideals of what a Christian/Jew/Bhuddist/Muslim is, and how they are supposed to behave, and Wiccans, unfortunately, are still such an unknown religion to so many people. Not only that, but there are so many differen't paths within Wicca, and Paganism, Heathenism, that it is a very difficult thing to establish a set list of beliefs or code of conduct, that members of these paths are supposed to adhere to. In a way, I try to be hopeful, and view it in a positive light. That we will be judged upon our actions (if there is such a thing as true justice in the criminal justice system), rather than upon a stereotype and ideal that we are supposed to conform to, because of our Label.

[Flar's Freyja]

Yes, there have - and worse, I find the ones where females have molested really disturbing....

Wow, I'm impressed with your post and the way you expanded on what I was trying to get across! What I was referring to was the witch hunts that have occurred, where ritual abuse was alleged but never substantiated.

I agree that there are individuals from all cultures, religions, professions and social classes that have molested. And unfortunately, lots of these cases among the high-profile and elite often go unreported.

[manstranger]

Yeah, there are Freya ... and all to often the fact that they are (in that case) a pedophile isn't talked about as much as the other things they are (gay, straight, white, black, Christian, Jew, Pagan, Muslim, Bhudist etc. etc.), which is really rather ... well, dumb, IMO.

[Witchy Cowgirl]

OK....point taken. Now what your saying is that no one should hide behind a religious label in order to try and get themselves off the hook for something they've done....AND the reason they don't hide behind a Pagan label is because there isn't enough info. out there to help get them out of the situation they are in because mainstream society believes Paganism to be satan worshipers.
But the orginal post said
I have gone through countless interviews with clients who invest a lot of energy in trying to convience me that they just couldn't have done these things because "I'm a Christian" And what Freyja said, "The indivuials I'm reffering to are using Christianty as a front." is what I was reffering to in my previous post. So, if I may.....
It is sad when people hide behind a relgious label and gives the folks within that relgion a bad name. It makes my heart heavy.
All we can do is pray that people like these find thier own good path to follow and that they stop hurting others.

(I tried to insert the 2nd quote using the quote thing....but I must have been doing something wrong. SORRY....still learning!:rolleyes: 8O

[Danustouch]

I guess that what my point was, is that it is unfair for people to use religious labels to get them out of situations that they are in. The playing field isn't level, folks. That's why such excuses should not be valid in the eyes of any jury.

[Flar's Freyja]

Thanks, both of you, for getting the point! Excellent input, by the way!:)