Gods and corporeal forms?

[David19]

This is something i really want to get other peoples opinions or beliefs on, as i think it's interesting, but do you think the gods can take on corporeal form, when they want or are they just spiritual beings (meaning they can't experience physical things)?.

I personally believe that the gods are both incorporeal and can take on a corporeal appearance when they need too or want too. For example, I believe in their own realms/planes, they do have some kind of corporeal form (and it makes sense, as from all the myths, a lot of deities do have sex in their own planes), but that in this realm, they may only appear as incorporeal (for whatever reason).

Anyway, i hope that made some kind of sense, and i'd really like to get your views or beliefs on this.

Thanks.

[Shanti]

I believe they can but that any non-physical conscious existence can!!

I also believe in many different realms to both in the physical and non-physical.

I also believe we are not all from or going to the same realms.

I am not connected, or know from personal experience, of any realms with gods. But I believe some people do know and/or are experienced/connected to realms with gods.

[Xentor]

The Olympians were known to appear to the Greeks in human or animal form on quite the occasion.

The Egyptian Pharaos were thought to be gods alive.

And then there's Jesus of Nazareth.

[plumedsnake]

I have to be careful because I am aware that what I mean when I say gods is quite different from what a few other people, David19 included, mean.

I believe that absolutely all forms are manifestations of dieties.

[plumedsnake]

And then there's Jesus of Nazareth.

Wasn't the big split that divided christianity into orthodoxy versus heresy based on the nature of christ. The heretics (especially the arians) claimed that he was just human. The orthodoxers said he was divine and then there were a few groups that operated in the grey areas between the two. He was part divine and part human.

Some gnostics went so far as to say that he wasn't even physical at all. And he kept changing form, sometimes appearing as a little boy, other times revealing his more divine aspects, as in the transfiguration etc etc.

[plumedsnake]

Have I ever mentioned that I am divine?

[Xentor]

I believe that absolutely all forms are manifestations of dieties.

The pantheist in me says all forms are manifistations of deity. ;)

[Arion]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't think the gods can take physical form. I think they are big and powerful spirits, but they are subject to the scientific laws of the universe, just as we are. I'm open to the idea that they can manifest visibly, but I don't think it's possible for them to take solid form. I don't take the myths literally, so I don't think that they recount what the gods actually do.

I was reading an article on Dodekatheism on WitchVox, and the part on Miasma (ritual purity) sums it up very well:

Miasma is generally a natural part of human life, and is characterized by those things we experience that the Gods do not: death, childbirth, sickness, sex, and bloodshed. You will note that the Gods seem to experience all of these things if the Homeric myths are taken literally – further clues that they should not be! As immortals, They can never truly die. And the anthropomorphic images we create for Them, including the explanations of their couplings and births, are metaphors. We use the human experience to explain something that is not human, for we have no better frame of reference to understand.

from here (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usmd&c=trads&id=10395)

[Meadhbh]

I think they can. Even if they have limited power their still gods, they get to stretch the rules a little bit. If they couldn't come here in their own bodies they could always borrow one from somebody and use till their through with it. Thats what orcales and possessions are for.

[plumedsnake]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't think the gods can take physical form. I think they are big and powerful spirits, but they are subject to the scientific laws of the universe, just as we are. I'm open to the idea that they can manifest visibly, but I don't think it's possible for them to take solid form.


I'll need to know what you mean by 'spirit'. What is the defination of a spirit. How is a spirit subject to the scientific laws of the universe? Why can they be seen but not felt (which is what I suppose you mean by them taking solid form)? Also, what is a big and powerful spirit in contrast to a small and weak spirit.

[Jolixte]

I definitely don't think they can take a corporeal form, if we are talking about them as a "them" and not an "us".

[Arion]

I'll need to know what you mean by 'spirit'. What is the defination of a spirit.
I suppose a spirit is an etheric being with no corporeal form.

How is a spirit subject to the scientific laws of the universe?
It exists in the universe like any other being, so it makes sense that the laws of science apply to it as it applies to us. You don't just see spirits of dead people all of a sudden becoming embodied. Matter just doesn't come out of thin air. That's the stuff of science fiction and fairy tales.

Why can they be seen but not felt (which is what I suppose you mean by them taking solid form)?
They can be felt on a spiritual or emotional level, but I doubt a physical one, since they aren't made up of solid matter. It's kind of like light, you can see it, but not feel it. (Light is just an analogy, i'm not implying it's the same as spiritual matter.)

Also, what is a big and powerful spirit in contrast to a small and weak spirit.
Well, a god would be a "bigger", stronger spirit compared to that of an ordinary mortal, don't you think?

[David19]

I think they can. Even if they have limited power their still gods, they get to stretch the rules a little bit. If they couldn't come here in their own bodies they could always borrow one from somebody and use till their through with it. Thats what orcales and possessions are for.

I agree with you, i think they could bend the rules, a little or experience the physicaly realm by possession (as in Vodou, and I think Santeria?).

[David19]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't think the gods can take physical form. I think they are big and powerful spirits, but they are subject to the scientific laws of the universe, just as we are. I'm open to the idea that they can manifest visibly, but I don't think it's possible for them to take solid form. I don't take the myths literally, so I don't think that they recount what the gods actually do.

I was reading an article on Dodekatheism on WitchVox, and the part on Miasma (ritual purity) sums it up very well:

from here (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usmd&c=trads&id=10395)

I've read that article before, and while i like it, i think saying the gods don't experience the same emotions kind of takes something away from the gods, like i do think Apollo would experience sexual/lustful feelings for guys and girls, that Zeus is attracted to whatever takes his fancy, that YHWH is a jealous god, etc.

Plus, i don't think the laws of science can really apply to gods or other spirits and supernatural beings, as that would mean supernatural things like gods, ghosts, etc could be proven scientifically, but they can't (otherwise, the biggest philosiphical(sp?) question wouldn't be 'Does God exist?').

To me the supernatural has its own laws and rules, that aren't those of the natural realm, which are governed by scientific laws.

[Arion]

Plus, i don't think the laws of science can really apply to gods or other spirits and supernatural beings, as that would mean supernatural things like gods, ghosts, etc could be proven scientifically, but they can't (otherwise, the biggest philosiphical(sp?) question wouldn't be 'Does God exist?').

To me the supernatural has its own laws and rules, that aren't those of the natural realm, which are governed by scientific laws.

I don't believe in the supernatural, so to speak. I see the gods as very natural beings, existing on a different level of the natural world, but still a part of the whole. Same with ghosts, although I'm not so sure I believe in them (I don't disbelieve in them either, they just aren't something I've thought much about). They are a part of the natural world, but on an unseen, non-physical level. When I hear the word "supernatural," it reminds me of sci-fi/fantasy nonsense, with people with crazy magical powers and all sorts of ridiculous stuff that is created by people with some vivid imaginations. I think it's a little far-fetched to have anything to do with religion.

[Xentor]

Ah, would you label yourself as an animist, then? Animists have a view of religion that can be explained from and used to explain nature. No supernaturals involved.

Cute statement about the laws of physics. Ever heard of quantum physics? Things don't always seem to follow the simple laws. There might be something like varying behaviour, which could easily follow a more chaotic line instead of a simple law.

A great example of the conflict is light. On the one side, it's a particle, and it behaves according to the physical laws of particles. On the other side, it's a wave, and it behaves according to the physical laws of waves... simultaneously but separately. There's only a handful of things that do this. Instead of defying the laws of physics, two different sets apply simultaneously.

It's well possible this happens to gods. Sometimes they behave corporeally, and sometimes they behave incorporeally. As gods, wouldn't they have the power to dictate their behaviour?

I do agree on one assumption: gods that are part of our universe will have to obey the laws of our universe. Question is: do we already know all possible laws, and how accurate are they? Quantum theory has a thing or two to say about that. Interesting reading, if you ask me.

[plumedsnake]

I suppose a spirit is an etheric being with no corporeal form.

What you've done here is just substitute one vague term for another. What is an etheric being? What is ether? What are the qualities of ether? What distinguishes one etheric being from another? like a difference between two material things, stone and cotton wool, is hardness. That is a quality you can gauge. What distinguishes an etheric being from a material one?


It exists in the universe like any other being, so it makes sense that the laws of science apply to it as it applies to us. You don't just see spirits of dead people all of a sudden becoming embodied. Matter just doesn't come out of thin air. That's the stuff of science fiction and fairy tales.

So spirits are subject to the law of gravity and the law of electromagnetism etc etc. Actually matter can just come out of thin air. Check out quantum mechanics like Xentor said.


They can be felt on a spiritual or emotional level, but I doubt a physical one, since they aren't made up of solid matter. It's kind of like light, you can see it, but not feel it. (Light is just an analogy, i'm not implying it's the same as spiritual matter.)

Your use of the word spirit leaves me none the wiser. Is the spiritual equivalent to the emotional? Light is not the same as 'spiritual matter'. Spiritual matter sounds to me like DarkLight, or Highdepths. I thought spirit and matter were contraries.


Well, a god would be a "bigger", stronger spirit compared to that of an ordinary mortal, don't you think?

I don't know what I think because I don't even know what you mean by a spirit. And obviously spirits must have size to be bigger and they must have strength too. But by ordinary mortals do you mean humans? If so, you consider us to be spirits too. or maybe a combination of spirits and matter.

[Philosophia]

I think they can take on any form they want for us to see them. Sometimes it might be human, animal or even plant form. Other times it could be pure energy, light or shadows. It depends on how they want to be seen.

[Morr]

I dont think they can take on human form. I dont think there can be a God or a Goddess that come as a totally new human and walk around and talk to other humans. So no, I dont think they can do that.

I do, however, think they can ""posses"" a person upon invitation. Thereby come inside a human body for whatever purpose (magical, divination, meditation, enlightenment, etc). I know I have invited The Morrigan and Brigid and they have come into my body (through energy form).

I do believe that we can journy up to the Gods' realms through meditation and trance and astral projection. I know I have done that before myself.

As for animals, I think that might be partially possible, though I find animals to be on a higher level of awareness and primal existance, so they are closer to the Gods -- Therefore can be messangers or mediators between the physical plan and the Gods' planes.

Same with the land and trees and plants/flowers -- They are all connected to the Gods, but not only the Gods. There are land spirits, fae and Ancestors who are all part of nature, and form a connection between the otherworld and other realms, and our physical realm.

[blackroseivy]

Wow - & now, what about the whole Xtianity can-o-worms?...

These are the very reasons that I can't follow it!

[David19]

I don't believe in the supernatural, so to speak. I see the gods as very natural beings, existing on a different level of the natural world, but still a part of the whole. Same with ghosts, although I'm not so sure I believe in them (I don't disbelieve in them either, they just aren't something I've thought much about). They are a part of the natural world, but on an unseen, non-physical level. When I hear the word "supernatural," it reminds me of sci-fi/fantasy nonsense, with people with crazy magical powers and all sorts of ridiculous stuff that is created by people with some vivid imaginations. I think it's a little far-fetched to have anything to do with religion.

For me, i do believe in the supernatural and supernatural entities (gods, ghosts, etc), 'cause of gods, ghosts, etc are 'natural' then that would mean there is scientific proof for their existence, but, at least IMO, there isn't much proof for any type of god (again, like i said, if there was, philosophers of all ages wouldn't have need to ask 'does God exist?').

Plus, i wouldn't discount the possiblity of 'crazy magical powers', a lot of what is attributed to most fantasy shows and books, is taken from mythological and historical sources.

The Real Harry Potter Spellbook (http://web.archive.org/web/19960101000000-20051231235959/http://www3.aeonflux.net/~io/)is one example, and there are others (for example, in the feats attributed to Dion Fortune, such as teleportation, levitation, telepathy, telekenisis, materialising objects, etc).

[David19]

I do agree on one assumption: gods that are part of our universe will have to obey the laws of our universe. Question is: do we already know all possible laws, and how accurate are they? Quantum theory has a thing or two to say about that. Interesting reading, if you ask me.

I agree with you about this, i think when a god does descend to our plane/realm, their powers would be limited.

I really hate to use a pop culture reference, but it's the only one i can think of at the moment, but like in Buffy Season 5, with Glory, the Hellgod, she was limited in her power and what she could do, 'cause she was on our plane and in human form.

I know it's a show but it's the only way i can think of expressing what i meant.

[Arion]

Ah, would you label yourself as an animist, then? Animists have a view of religion that can be explained from and used to explain nature. No supernaturals involved.
Well, I believe in gods and spirits, and that they have influence over our lives and have control over the functions of the universe, it's just that I don't think of them literally as anthropomorphic beings with magical powers. That kind of image is applied to them by humans so we can have some kind of picture in our minds of what the gods are and the power they have. The images aren't literal truths. I know there are still a lot of scientific laws that are undiscovered, and things that can't be explained, but some things are also products of human imagination, to a certain extent.


Cute statement about the laws of physics. Ever heard of quantum physics? Things don't always seem to follow the simple laws. There might be something like varying behaviour, which could easily follow a more chaotic line instead of a simple law.
I've heard of quantum physics, but I don't know anything about them. Like I said, I'm open to "chaotic" occurences and not just simple laws, but a lot Pagans have the tendency to blend science fiction with religious belief, and I'm just saying that I don't agree.


It's well possible this happens to gods. Sometimes they behave corporeally, and sometimes they behave incorporeally. As gods, wouldn't they have the power to dictate their behaviour?
I guess it depends on what you believe. Personally, I don't see the gods as all-powerful like that, so I don't really expect them to materialize in front of me anytime soon. I don't believe here would be any reason for them to.


I do agree on one assumption: gods that are part of our universe will have to obey the laws of our universe. Question is: do we already know all possible laws, and how accurate are they? Quantum theory has a thing or two to say about that. Interesting reading, if you ask me.
Yes, I agree. There's still a lot we don't know, so it'd hard to be sure one way or another. From my personal observations of nature, and experience with honouring the divine, I can't see what the purpose of having gods materialize would be, or how it could be done. Gods and spirits materializing, people transforming into animals, levitation... that sounds to me more like the cration of fantasy writers and "occultists" with wild imaginations. But hey, what do I know?


What you've done here is just substitute one vague term for another. What is an etheric being? What is ether? What are the qualities of ether? What distinguishes one etheric being from another? like a difference between two material things, stone and cotton wool, is hardness. That is a quality you can gauge. What distinguishes an etheric being from a material one?
I'm no expert with the science and mechanics behind it all, I just can't understand how a non-physical being could materialize in a physical world. They can manifest themselves in the surroundings when they want to reveal themselves, but I personally don't think they can adopt new physical forms instantaneously. Living bodies take time to grow and develop to comei nto a mature state, they don't just come fully developed out of thin air. That's what I think anyway, you're welcome to disagree. I'm not a scienist of quantum physicist, so I can't explain it in any scientific way, it's just what I think.


For me, i do believe in the supernatural and supernatural entities (gods, ghosts, etc), 'cause of gods, ghosts, etc are 'natural' then that would mean there is scientific proof for their existence, but, at least IMO, there isn't much proof for any type of god (again, like i said, if there was, philosophers of all ages wouldn't have need to ask 'does God exist?').
Well there's no scientific proof yet, but scientists don't know everything.


Plus, i wouldn't discount the possiblity of 'crazy magical powers', a lot of what is attributed to most fantasy shows and books, is taken from mythological and historical sources.
Maybe, but I think it's highly exaggerated in fictional stories in novels, movies and TV shows.

[plumedsnake]

I'm no expert with the science and mechanics behind it all, I just can't understand how a non-physical being could materialize in a physical world. They can manifest themselves in the surroundings when they want to reveal themselves, but I personally don't think they can adopt new physical forms instantaneously.


My thing is that I can't make out what your distinction between a physical being and a nonphysical being is. Or even a physical world as distinct from a non physical world.

[Arion]

My thing is that I can't make out what your distinction between a physical being and a nonphysical being is. Or even a physical world as distinct from a non physical world.

I don't really know how to explain... To me, if somethign is physical, it is something you can sense with your physical senses. It is something you can see, feel, touch, and is solid enough to be detected by these senses. In my perception, the gods to not exist in a physical way, they are detected only on an emotional, intuitive, and "spiritual" level, and are not anchored to a physical form made up of solid elements. Does that make any sense?

[plumedsnake]

I don't really know how to explain... To me, if somethign is physical, it is something you can sense with your physical senses. It is something you can see, feel, touch, and is solid enough to be detected by these senses. In my perception, the gods to not exist in a physical way, they are detected only on an emotional, intuitive, and "spiritual" level, and are not anchored to a physical form made up of solid elements. Does that make any sense?

Yes it does. it makes a lot more sense now. By physical you mean something that can be perceived via the 5 senses. In other words it is Intelligible. There are other modes of perception. ie intuition and even imagination. If you believe that everything that can be imagined actually has an existence then what happens when you imagine stuff is that you are actually percieving other dimensions. To the extent that the imagination is infinite in scope then there are an infinite number of other realms.
But these other realms could be parallel realms with no contact or influence on the physical world, or they could be able to influence this physical world. I happen to think that there are some realms that are closer to the physical than others and there for have more influence in this world. But that is not what we are talking about here.

We are talking about whether Gods can become material/ physical beings. If I can imagine a lovely cup of tea in my hands then that doesn't actually exist physically but it exists in some imaginable realm. I can then use my will to make the imagined cup of tea a physical reality. So events can translate from the imagination to physical reality. If some events can, why can't others. Why can't Gods incarnate?